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Learning to drive standard

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Posts

  • VarinnVarinn Vancouver, BCRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I've kinda skimmed this, and im not responding to any particular post. Just my own methods

    I never, ever, EVER, go into any corner, of any kind, with the car in neutral. You want to be in a gear with your foot off the clutch pedal. On the street, you can shift mid corner but make it smooth. Under any kind of stressed driving you're extremely limiting your response choices. Unless you're extremely smooth on the actions, dropping a car into gear mid corner will drastically change the way the car handles when the engine rev matches the transmission.

    Don't balance on a hill by riding the clutch, unless you like throwing away money.

    When coming up to a light, I always downshift until 2nd gear. Not 100% engine braking, not 100% brakes. Balance the two, and rev match, don't downshift into first unless you're stopped, or extremely smooth and moving VERY slowly. Don't force anything, if the car doesnt want to go into gear easily, don't try and make it.

    Alot of people say downshifting wears out my clutch too fast, and some people say not downshifting wears out your brakes. Wear is inevitable, I drive my car in the way that I feel im in the most control of it at all times.

    Try this, hit a parking lot or empty street. Get up to say, 50-60kmh and do some slight zig-zagging with the car in gear, practice making quick maneouvers. Try the same thing with the car in neutral, doesn't feel very good. Try doing it in neutral, and putting the car in gear mid-turn.
    Spoiler:

    3clipse wrote: »
    TERRANS MORE LIKE OPRANS AMIRITE
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Especially the sound of a big V8 decelerating. Hearing that crackling rumble coming from a nice V8 really makes driving what it is.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA
    edited June 2010
    Ruckus wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    I'd rather put wear on the brakes than the clutch, to be honest. Much more cost effective.
    Shifting down as your stopping wears the brakes, clutch, and the transmission.
    Brakes are the cheapest of the three so hit neutral.
    That's what my father was told by his father.
    And what my neighbor was told by his father and what he was taught by HIS father.

    Yes you should be in gear, if you can't get into the appropriate gear fast enough for any situation then don't do this. But any experienced driver should be able to.

    So you're working on information that's 50+ years old?

    New advice for the OP: Ask your car's manufacturer about the preferred method to minimize wear.

    For what it's worth, nobody taught me how to drive stick, so I taught myself and haven't been doing this down shifting, but rather pop it in neutral, coast to a stop, and then put it in first when I'm ready to start moving again. My car was manufactured in 1999, I got it in 2003, and I've not noticed any decrease in performance from the clutch.

    sig_megas_armed.jpg
  • Mmmm... Cocks...Mmmm... Cocks... Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Ruckus wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    I'd rather put wear on the brakes than the clutch, to be honest. Much more cost effective.
    Shifting down as your stopping wears the brakes, clutch, and the transmission.
    Brakes are the cheapest of the three so hit neutral.
    That's what my father was told by his father.
    And what my neighbor was told by his father and what he was taught by HIS father.

    Yes you should be in gear, if you can't get into the appropriate gear fast enough for any situation then don't do this. But any experienced driver should be able to.

    So you're working on information that's 50+ years old?

    New advice for the OP: Ask your car's manufacturer about the preferred method to minimize wear.

    For what it's worth, nobody taught me how to drive stick, so I taught myself and haven't been doing this down shifting, but rather pop it in neutral, coast to a stop, and then put it in first when I'm ready to start moving again. My car was manufactured in 1999, I got it in 2003, and I've not noticed any decrease in performance from the clutch.
    He's arguing that it doesn't. I'm saying down shifting does cause extra wear.
    What you're doing is fine.
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Especially the sound of a big V8 decelerating. Hearing that crackling rumble coming from a nice V8 really makes driving what it is.
    By all means when downshifting and slowing down the engine is speeding/reving UP.

  • RuckusRuckus Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Ruckus wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    I'd rather put wear on the brakes than the clutch, to be honest. Much more cost effective.
    Shifting down as your stopping wears the brakes, clutch, and the transmission.
    Brakes are the cheapest of the three so hit neutral.
    That's what my father was told by his father.
    And what my neighbor was told by his father and what he was taught by HIS father.

    Yes you should be in gear, if you can't get into the appropriate gear fast enough for any situation then don't do this. But any experienced driver should be able to.

    So you're working on information that's 50+ years old?

    New advice for the OP: Ask your car's manufacturer about the preferred method to minimize wear.

    For what it's worth, nobody taught me how to drive stick, so I taught myself and haven't been doing this down shifting, but rather pop it in neutral, coast to a stop, and then put it in first when I'm ready to start moving again. My car was manufactured in 1999, I got it in 2003, and I've not noticed any decrease in performance from the clutch.
    He's arguing that it doesn't. I'm saying down shifting does cause extra wear.
    What you're doing is fine.
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Especially the sound of a big V8 decelerating. Hearing that crackling rumble coming from a nice V8 really makes driving what it is.
    By all means when downshifting and slowing down the engine is speeding/reving UP.

    Well, I'm not saying that it doesn't cause more wear than floating in neutral, I'm saying it's not significant additional wear if the downshift is performed properly. Also, it's also important to note that since around the mid 1980's, Synchro's have been pretty much a standard feature in all consumer vehicles, and they also assist in the downshifting process.

    Raneados wrote: »
    so what SPECIFICALLY is the problem with my hole?
  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Find yourself a nice parking lot and just drive around for a couple of hours. Yeah, it's tedious, but it's sure as hell less frightening to everyone else on the road.

    "Adios, mofo" -- TX Gov Rick Perry (R)
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Especially the sound of a big V8 decelerating. Hearing that crackling rumble coming from a nice V8 really makes driving what it is.
    By all means when downshifting and slowing down the engine is speeding/reving UP.

    uh no it isn't.

    sure when you rev match you bring the engine up to x thousand rpm, but then it decelerates from there. thats the whole point of engine braking.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • Mmmm... Cocks...Mmmm... Cocks... Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Especially the sound of a big V8 decelerating. Hearing that crackling rumble coming from a nice V8 really makes driving what it is.
    By all means when downshifting and slowing down the engine is speeding/reving UP.

    uh no it isn't.

    sure when you rev match you bring the engine up to x thousand rpm, but then it decelerates from there. thats the whole point of engine braking.
    I believe the point of engine brakes is to slow down without the brakes. If you just wanted to engine to chill out you'd just drop it in N and it will go straight to idle.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Especially the sound of a big V8 decelerating. Hearing that crackling rumble coming from a nice V8 really makes driving what it is.
    By all means when downshifting and slowing down the engine is speeding/reving UP.

    uh no it isn't.

    sure when you rev match you bring the engine up to x thousand rpm, but then it decelerates from there. thats the whole point of engine braking.
    I believe the point of engine brakes is to slow down without the brakes. If you just wanted to engine to chill out you'd just drop it in N and it will go straight to idle.

    well, exactly.

    putting the engine into neutral doesn't really make the engine decelerate
    it just drops the revs to 0

    are you deliberately being annoying and overly literal? because only a complete silly goose could not understand exactly what I mean.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • Mmmm... Cocks...Mmmm... Cocks... Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    putting the engine into neutral doesn't really make the engine decelerate
    it just drops the revs to 0.
    What? Revs are the engines speed is it not?

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about when I say that I enjoy the sound of an engine decelerating.

    And if you seriously don't know what I mean by that why are you giving advice in a car thread?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1C5bQ2yjzI

    1:25 is what i'm talking about.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • Mmmm... Cocks...Mmmm... Cocks... Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about when I say that I enjoy the sound of an engine decelerating.

    And if you seriously don't know what I mean by that why are you giving advice in a car thread?
    No, I know what you're talking about.
    And I have limited car knowledge but I think you're wrong here. (from my understanding)

    The engine is speeding up and accelerating during engine breaking.
    It's the transmission that's slowing you down, thus the wear.

  • tarnoktarnok Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Really what you should be doing while stopped on an incline is using the gas and clutch to give just enough acceleration so you aren't moving. That way when the light changes or whatever, you can continue on without rolling back. It takes practice, though, but eventually it's second nature.

    I just started reading this thread so someone has probably already said this, and is possible I'm misunderstanding you, but if you mean using the clutch to stand still on an incline instead of using the brake this is a terrible idea and no one should do it unless they have enough money to buy a new clutch every 30-40k miles.

    DO NOT DO THIS.

    Keeping the clutch pushed part way in any longer than it takes to get going or switch gears is the fastest way to wear out a clutch. If the clutch is not all the way in or all the way out you should be trying to get it into one of those states as fast as possible.

    Edit: For the person above, the engine does race when you downshift because the wheels are going faster than the engine wants to. Friction from the engine slows you down in this case. Any wear will be concentrated in the engine, not the transmission.

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  • The Black HunterThe Black Hunter Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Slowing down using the gears won't destroy your car,
    It's fine to do and so help me god can we please move on

    sig-1.jpg
  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Austin, TXRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    tarnok wrote: »
    I just started reading this thread so someone has probably already said this, and is possible I'm misunderstanding you, but if you mean using the clutch to stand still on an incline instead of using the brake this is a terrible idea and no one should do it unless they have enough money to buy a new clutch every 30-40k miles.

    I'm through arguing with you people about this, but I'll repeat myself. I had the same clutch for 10 years before I just got a new car, at which point it had well over 200k miles. Hell, my dad still has that car and it's on the same clutch, as far as I know. So yes, it may wear out your clutch faster than not doing it, but it's not going to be anything most people will notice.

    camo_sig2.png
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    tarnok wrote: »
    Really what you should be doing while stopped on an incline is using the gas and clutch to give just enough acceleration so you aren't moving. That way when the light changes or whatever, you can continue on without rolling back. It takes practice, though, but eventually it's second nature.

    I just started reading this thread so someone has probably already said this, and is possible I'm misunderstanding you, but if you mean using the clutch to stand still on an incline instead of using the brake this is a terrible idea and no one should do it unless they have enough money to buy a new clutch every 30-40k miles.

    DO NOT DO THIS.

    Keeping the clutch pushed part way in any longer than it takes to get going or switch gears is the fastest way to wear out a clutch. If the clutch is not all the way in or all the way out you should be trying to get it into one of those states as fast as possible.

    Edit: For the person above, the engine does race when you downshift because the wheels are going faster than the engine wants to. Friction from the engine slows you down in this case. Any wear will be concentrated in the engine, not the transmission.

    unless of course, you don't match the engine revs to what they should be before engaging the gear, in which case you will wear out your clutch really fast.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • GihgehlsGihgehls Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Dhalphir wrote:
    Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about when I say that I enjoy the sound of an engine decelerating.

    And if you seriously don't know what I mean by that why are you giving advice in a car thread?
    No, I know what you're talking about.
    And I have limited car knowledge but I think you're wrong here. (from my understanding)

    The engine is speeding up and accelerating during engine breaking.
    It's the transmission that's slowing you down, thus the wear.

    If the clutch is engaged and you use the engine to slow down, the engine is not speeding up. If that were the case, what would the engine's speed be once the car hit 0? The reality is that a running engine without throttle "wants" to get back down to idle revs. If it is already idle and you try to speed up the crank shaft, say by engine braking, the engines compression will resist the change in speed. When the outside force on the crankshaft ceases, the engine will go back to idle. The same phenomenon is the very reason many people are trained to park their standard cars in first gear. In first gear, the wheels have the least leverage over the engine, effectively stopping the car.

    When engine braking without rev matching, yes, the engine will accelerate briefly before heading towards stallville. When you hear someone downshifting through all the gears, it would sound like a quick rev up followed by a slower revving down, gear change, quick rev up, long rev down, repeat. I think this is where you and the other fellow's failure to communicate is.

    Edit: the transmission provides a bit of friction to slow yup down, but it is a minor force in the whole system.

    PA-gihgehls-sig.jpg
  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA
    edited June 2010
    tarnok wrote: »
    I just started reading this thread so someone has probably already said this, and is possible I'm misunderstanding you, but if you mean using the clutch to stand still on an incline instead of using the brake this is a terrible idea and no one should do it unless they have enough money to buy a new clutch every 30-40k miles.

    I'm through arguing with you people about this, but I'll repeat myself. I had the same clutch for 10 years before I just got a new car, at which point it had well over 200k miles. Hell, my dad still has that car and it's on the same clutch, as far as I know. So yes, it may wear out your clutch faster than not doing it, but it's not going to be anything most people will notice.

    It's also a lot harder to do and if you aren't already pretty good with a stick (and even if you are, possibly) it's a great way to fuck up and stall your car while on an incline. Which means you ARE going to roll backwards and you'll have to brake without the assistance of power brakes. Which if you're not used to it, and you're in a panic situation because you just stalled out on an incline, sucks. A lot.

    Your advice really is not appropriate to a person just learning to drive stick which IS what this thread is about. Also your anecdote is still just an anecdote, I don't know that it's a reasonable expectation on the average.

    Really though, let's just drop that entire tangent. There is nothing wrong with using your brakes to brake when you're driving stick.

    IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
    CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
  • RuckusRuckus Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about when I say that I enjoy the sound of an engine decelerating.

    And if you seriously don't know what I mean by that why are you giving advice in a car thread?
    No, I know what you're talking about.
    And I have limited car knowledge but I think you're wrong here. (from my understanding)

    The engine is speeding up and accelerating during engine breaking.
    It's the transmission that's slowing you down, thus the wear.

    No, the compression of the engine chambers is what reduces your speed. The wheels turn the transmission, which turns the engine, which isn't receiving fuel, and thus acts as a brake on the rest of the system.

    Raneados wrote: »
    so what SPECIFICALLY is the problem with my hole?
  • PkErthbndPkErthbnd Registered User
    edited June 2010
    I've been reading this thread since it started, but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the whole stalling-on-an-incline bit. I used to live in a very hilly town, and drove a stick for 4 of the 5 years I lived there. Any time I would get stuck on an incline, I would always keep my left foot on the clutch to maintain full control and then put my heel on the break and my toes on the gas pedal. That way, I could still feel the exact spot when the engine began to bog down, and then going heel-to-toe with my right foot to increase the revs of the engine while slowly letting off the brake. Granted, I don't have a radio or any other distractions in my car and because of that know when to shift almost always by ear instead of watching gauges.

    Also, whoever said that driving a standard was the best anti-theft device in America? You're right. Also, a plus because unless they know how to drive a standard as well, they'll never ask to borrow your car.

  • strebaliciousstrebalicious Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    PkErthbnd wrote: »
    I've been reading this thread since it started, but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the whole stalling-on-an-incline bit. I used to live in a very hilly town, and drove a stick for 4 of the 5 years I lived there. Any time I would get stuck on an incline, I would always keep my left foot on the clutch to maintain full control and then put my heel on the break and my toes on the gas pedal. That way, I could still feel the exact spot when the engine began to bog down, and then going heel-to-toe with my right foot to increase the revs of the engine while slowly letting off the brake. Granted, I don't have a radio or any other distractions in my car and because of that know when to shift almost always by ear instead of watching gauges.

    Also, whoever said that driving a standard was the best anti-theft device in America? You're right. Also, a plus because unless they know how to drive a standard as well, they'll never ask to borrow your car.


    Do people really look at the gauges to tell when to shift? I mean, I might look at the gauges when I first drive a new car to see what redline feels like, but after that it's all intuition. The duty truck we got for our organization doesn't even have a RPM gauge.

    camo_sig2.png
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2010
    PkErthbnd wrote: »
    I've been reading this thread since it started, but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the whole stalling-on-an-incline bit. I used to live in a very hilly town, and drove a stick for 4 of the 5 years I lived there. Any time I would get stuck on an incline, I would always keep my left foot on the clutch to maintain full control and then put my heel on the break and my toes on the gas pedal. That way, I could still feel the exact spot when the engine began to bog down, and then going heel-to-toe with my right foot to increase the revs of the engine while slowly letting off the brake. Granted, I don't have a radio or any other distractions in my car and because of that know when to shift almost always by ear instead of watching gauges.

    Also, whoever said that driving a standard was the best anti-theft device in America? You're right. Also, a plus because unless they know how to drive a standard as well, they'll never ask to borrow your car.

    That seems like an option if the two pedals are balanced in a way that favours it, but my right knee is just screaming at the thought of twisting my leg that way :P

    tmsig.jpg
  • CasualCasual Ho Ho Ho Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    The Cat wrote: »
    PkErthbnd wrote: »
    I've been reading this thread since it started, but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the whole stalling-on-an-incline bit. I used to live in a very hilly town, and drove a stick for 4 of the 5 years I lived there. Any time I would get stuck on an incline, I would always keep my left foot on the clutch to maintain full control and then put my heel on the break and my toes on the gas pedal. That way, I could still feel the exact spot when the engine began to bog down, and then going heel-to-toe with my right foot to increase the revs of the engine while slowly letting off the brake. Granted, I don't have a radio or any other distractions in my car and because of that know when to shift almost always by ear instead of watching gauges.

    Also, whoever said that driving a standard was the best anti-theft device in America? You're right. Also, a plus because unless they know how to drive a standard as well, they'll never ask to borrow your car.

    That seems like an option if the two pedals are balanced in a way that favours it, but my right knee is just screaming at the thought of twisting my leg that way :P


    Seriously, human legs don't do that. o_O

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    The Cat wrote: »
    PkErthbnd wrote: »
    I've been reading this thread since it started, but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the whole stalling-on-an-incline bit. I used to live in a very hilly town, and drove a stick for 4 of the 5 years I lived there. Any time I would get stuck on an incline, I would always keep my left foot on the clutch to maintain full control and then put my heel on the break and my toes on the gas pedal. That way, I could still feel the exact spot when the engine began to bog down, and then going heel-to-toe with my right foot to increase the revs of the engine while slowly letting off the brake. Granted, I don't have a radio or any other distractions in my car and because of that know when to shift almost always by ear instead of watching gauges.

    Also, whoever said that driving a standard was the best anti-theft device in America? You're right. Also, a plus because unless they know how to drive a standard as well, they'll never ask to borrow your car.

    That seems like an option if the two pedals are balanced in a way that favours it, but my right knee is just screaming at the thought of twisting my leg that way :P

    Yeah, seems to me if you're going to do gas/brake at the same time with one foot, why not just use the parking brake instead?

    steam_sig.png
  • The Black HunterThe Black Hunter Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    BECAUSE PARKING BRAKE IS FOR PARKING AND IF YOU USE THE PARKING BRAKE AND YOU AREN'T PARKING THEN YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING THE PARKING BRAKE IS NOT MEANT FOR (WHICH IS PARKING) AND THAT MEANS YOU ARE DRIVING WRONG GOSH

    sig-1.jpg
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2010
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    PkErthbnd wrote: »
    I've been reading this thread since it started, but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the whole stalling-on-an-incline bit. I used to live in a very hilly town, and drove a stick for 4 of the 5 years I lived there. Any time I would get stuck on an incline, I would always keep my left foot on the clutch to maintain full control and then put my heel on the break and my toes on the gas pedal. That way, I could still feel the exact spot when the engine began to bog down, and then going heel-to-toe with my right foot to increase the revs of the engine while slowly letting off the brake. Granted, I don't have a radio or any other distractions in my car and because of that know when to shift almost always by ear instead of watching gauges.

    Also, whoever said that driving a standard was the best anti-theft device in America? You're right. Also, a plus because unless they know how to drive a standard as well, they'll never ask to borrow your car.

    That seems like an option if the two pedals are balanced in a way that favours it, but my right knee is just screaming at the thought of twisting my leg that way :P

    Yeah, seems to me if you're going to do gas/brake at the same time with one foot, why not just use the parking brake instead?

    Too safe, duh

    you don't want to drive like a square, do you

    tmsig.jpg
  • NargorothRiPNargorothRiP Registered User
    edited June 2010
    people who drive standard are some of the most holier then thou arrogant pricks around. Give the guy advice on learning and shut the hell up already about the nuances of stick.

    P.S. "Slush box driving plebians r0fflx0rz kekekeek!"

  • PkErthbndPkErthbnd Registered User
    edited June 2010
    Actually, the only reason I don't use the parking brake is because a year and a half ago, the girl I was dating at the time got in my car and put the clutch in, thinking it was the brake and took my car over a curb and into a ditch. While that was happening, she pulled the parking brake thinking it would stop the car as it was rolling. It didn't, and thusly broke my parking brake.

    As far as twisting-the-leg, it's never a problem for me. Maybe I just have big feet, but I'll try and get a picture of what I mean at some point. It doesn't hurt my leg at all, and there's no weird twist or anything I do. Works fine for me?

    Nargoroth, you must not drive a standard. :lol:

  • NargorothRiPNargorothRiP Registered User
    edited June 2010
    For a couple of years now. Thanks for trying though

  • PkErthbndPkErthbnd Registered User
    edited June 2010
    All in good fun, my friend. I certainly don't try to be "holier-than-thou" but just like any other skill or ability, it takes determination and drive (ololol puns) to master. I wouldn't get mad at someone who was, say, a master craftsman telling me how to do what he's perfected, and I certainly wouldn't think he was trying to be a prick. Driving a standard takes lots of practice, and if anyone that drives a stick seems a little uppity or full of themselves, it's just because not anyone can hop in a standard and drive it as it should be, and at least in my experience people seem to think that it's very easy to do right off the bat.

    And as far as telling the OP the "nuances" of driving a standard, that's all part of it. It's all advice, and the OP stands to make some very expensive problems for himself if he's unaware of the tricks of the trade. Granted, you could read every book ever written about driving stick but the only way to really understand it is to do it over and over and over until it's natural. Besides the bickering, there has been some really solid advice given throughout the thread. Like I said, it's all a part of it.

  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    alright so I'm in Calgary now, made the drive alright. I'm good enough now that I can start without stalling or being too jerky, my problem was that i was taking my foot off the clutch too fast. I'm a little slower than I'd like to be on getting moving but thats something I can work on. Shifting/downshifting while moving is not a problem either.

    Hills are a bit of a pain. Calgary is a pretty hilly town, but meh, my sister is doing most of the driving while in the city so its not a big deal for me. And soon enough I'll be back in Ontario driving automatics.

    Thanks again everyone for the advice! This thread actually helped me a lot.

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