Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Bush Administration Conducted "Experiments" On Detainees

245

Posts

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Depending how you ask it, torturing people has majority support. Tasers have more support than that.

    We're not very nice people.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Raakam wrote: »
    Why does there seem to be such a massive disconnect between the citizens and the high ups in government? If I sample all my friends, I have a few more democrats than republicans, and none of them are batshit crazy. Where do the people who condone this sort of behavior live? Do you guys know anyone that would say "this is justified/a good thing"?
    It makes zero sense. Usually, they say follow the money and you'll find a reason. Where's the incentive here?

    I just can't seem to reconciliate my experience of the US with the reality of its government. So incredibly stupid.

    I try very hard to avoid all political discussion with them, but I can guarantee you that my aunt and uncle think this is the bee's knees. And the incentive is they're fucking retarded.

    The libertarian response to anything is, "Sure, that works fine in practice, but it doesn't fly in theory."
  • Aroused BullAroused Bull Registered User
    edited June 2010
    I can't say I'm surprised. We already knew they were torturing people, that they'd try to make that torture as unpleasant as possible is only natural.

  • Void SlayerVoid Slayer Very Suspicious Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    First off, gathering data in an objective way is a perfectly valid part of science and is the start to creating effective theories.
    Second, OMG what the .... more unethical and inhuman BS from the CIA who would have guessed. The doctors who participated should have their licenses revoked by any board that governs them. As a starting point.
    Also to the point of how people can do this, all you have to do is dehumanize the enemy, effectively distance both the direct actors and those in charge, and indoctrinate people to this kind of behavior gradually. Truth be told until 100 years ago, and continuing to this day, nations and individuals settle their disputes by hacking each other into small pieces. I am not saying this is any better, however its just as easy to get people to do this.

    He's a superhumanly strong soccer-playing romance novelist possessed of the uncanny powers of an insect. She's a beautiful African-American doctor with her own daytime radio talk show. They fight crime!
  • Operator-COperator-C Registered User
    edited June 2010
    Hoz wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Y'know. This Gitmo thing is really going to be riding on America's ass for a looooooooooooong time. :?

    And when the next anti-western group rises to prominence, you can bet that the majority of Americans will wonder why.
    Oh God, are you really priming an excuse for future terrorist attacks?

    You can't just say "Yeah, this is inhumane and we shouldn't be doing it" you have to run to bullshit like "It's stuff like this that causes terrorism!" like 9/11 happened because of the bad things we did during Vietnam or how we treated Native Americans. I'm sure Bin Laden would be saying those things if he knew people like you would be buying into it.

    Now I'm sincerely curious to know why you think 9/11 happened.

    camo_sig2.png
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    robotbebop wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    If a 19 year old Israeli commando can look into a man's eyes and tell whether or not he's a murderous terrorist, I'm sure our highly trained CIA and health professionals can as well, especially since they're not operating under as hectic conditions.

    Uhh....

    Well, considering that most of these dudes were captured on the battlefield without any due process or this magical Israeli mind-reading you speak of, it's probably a safe bet that no, they are not terrorists under the proper definition.

    At least one was a child soldier, was blown to hell and back, and was only discovered because a troop stepped on his exposed foot since he was buried in effing rubble So, unless that guard could sense terrorists based on how their shattered feet crunch when you step on them, I'm pretty sure it's a safe bet to say that kid wasn't a terrorist; just some poor schmuck with idiots for parents and the money to fly him to Afghanistan to be with his insane family.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

    EDIT: warning graphic photos are in that article

    I Can't tell if your being facetious or if the CIA kidnapped cut into your brain and extracted the part thats capable of recognizing blatant sarcasm. At this stage either is equally likely.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2010
    Is anyone genuinely surprised, though?

    I mean, we all knew deep down inside that they were doing horrible things to detainees. We just had no real evidence of it - until now.

    Comparison to the Nazis is pretty appropriate at this point, since the stuff in the OP most likely just barely scratches the surface of this shit.

    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • lazegamerlazegamer Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    After skimming through the white paper it doesn't seem like the doctors were driving any of the events, but rather observing and commenting on the torture that was already going on. The use of the word 'experiment' here is unjustified, but the term research certainly fits.

    It being torture is enough of a reason to be disgusted, but I think it's important not to skew the reality of the situation.

    Surprise.
    - Spy
  • NostregarNostregar Registered User
    edited June 2010
    lazegamer wrote: »
    After skimming through the white paper it doesn't seem like the doctors were driving any of the events, but rather observing and commenting on the torture that was already going on. The use of the word 'experiment' here is unjustified, but the term research certainly fits.

    It being torture is enough of a reason to be disgusted, but I think it's important not to skew the reality of the situation.

    How does this not strike you as experimentation?
    Health professionals appear to have analyzed data, based on their observations of 25 detainees who were subjected to individual and combined applications of “enhanced” interrogation techniques, to determine whether one type of application over another would increase the subject’s “susceptibility to severe pain.” The alleged research appears to have been undertaken only to assess the legality of the “enhanced” interrogation tactics and to guide future application of the techniques.

    Sure, maybe the doctors weren't personally arranging the experiments, but that doesn't change the fact that experiments were taking place. I don't think anybody here wanted to put sole blame on the doctors anyway.

    Spoiler:
  • DsmartDsmart Registered User
    edited June 2010
    EYES FORWARD.

    Fuck you, you centrist fuck.

  • lazegamerlazegamer Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Nostregar wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    After skimming through the white paper it doesn't seem like the doctors were driving any of the events, but rather observing and commenting on the torture that was already going on. The use of the word 'experiment' here is unjustified, but the term research certainly fits.

    It being torture is enough of a reason to be disgusted, but I think it's important not to skew the reality of the situation.

    How does this not strike you as experimentation?
    Health professionals appear to have analyzed data, based on their observations of 25 detainees who were subjected to individual and combined applications of “enhanced” interrogation techniques, to determine whether one type of application over another would increase the subject’s “susceptibility to severe pain.” The alleged research appears to have been undertaken only to assess the legality of the “enhanced” interrogation tactics and to guide future application of the techniques.

    Sure, maybe the doctors weren't personally arranging the experiments, but that doesn't change the fact that experiments were taking place. I don't think anybody here wanted to put sole blame on the doctors anyway.

    The underlined part is mine to differentiate from your bolded segment. I'm having trouble finding evidence of this assertion in the white paper. I'm not questioning that the results of their observations informed future torture, only that torture was conducted with purpose of scientific inquiry.

    Surprise.
    - Spy
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Comparison to the Nazis is pretty appropriate at this point, since the stuff in the OP most likely just barely scratches the surface of this shit.

    I don't think they're appropriate. The little bits I've read of the Nazi experiments were worse than imaginable. How long can a newborn live without food? What amount of pressure will cause an adult's lungs to pop? And after we whipped the Nazis, we didn't burn the findings as we searched their labs and offices - we kept them. The need to experiment on prisoners until they expire is lessened because we have the Nazis' notes.

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Comparison to the Nazis is pretty appropriate at this point, since the stuff in the OP most likely just barely scratches the surface of this shit.

    I don't think they're appropriate. The little bits I've read of the Nazi experiments were worse than imaginable. How long can a newborn live without food? What amount of pressure will cause an adult's lungs to pop? And after we whipped the Nazis, we didn't burn the findings as we searched their labs and offices - we kept them. The need to experiment on prisoners until they expire is lessened because we have the Nazis' notes.

    The point is that it starts little by little. First you waterboard someone to make them feel as if they are drowning, then you test how far they can hold their breath without drowning, then you tie rocks to their ankles and throw them in the river to actually drown.

    Even the Nazis didn't start by throwing Jews in furnaces. It started out as "enhanced interrogation" first, before war broke out, then intensified into whatever was going on in the concentration camps.

    You need to nip these things in the bud or they get out of control.

    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • TL DRTL DR Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    "The CIA appears to have broken all accepted legal and ethical standards put in place since the Second World War to protect prisoners from being the subjects of experimentation," said Frank Donaghue, PHR's Chief Executive Officer. "Not only are these alleged acts gross violations of human rights law, they are a grave affront to America's core values."

    Somebody forgot about MKULTRA

    eokNV.jpg
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    "The CIA appears to have broken all accepted legal and ethical standards put in place since the Second World War to protect prisoners from being the subjects of experimentation," said Frank Donaghue, PHR's Chief Executive Officer. "Not only are these alleged acts gross violations of human rights law, they are a grave affront to America's core values."

    Somebody forgot about MKULTRA

    They broke legal and ethical standards then, too.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Comparison to the Nazis is pretty appropriate at this point, since the stuff in the OP most likely just barely scratches the surface of this shit.

    I don't think they're appropriate. The little bits I've read of the Nazi experiments were worse than imaginable. How long can a newborn live without food? What amount of pressure will cause an adult's lungs to pop? And after we whipped the Nazis, we didn't burn the findings as we searched their labs and offices - we kept them. The need to experiment on prisoners until they expire is lessened because we have the Nazis' notes.

    The point is that it starts little by little. First you waterboard someone to make them feel as if they are drowning, then you test how far they can hold their breath without drowning, then you tie rocks to their ankles and throw them in the river to actually drown.

    Even the Nazis didn't start by throwing Jews in furnaces. It started out as "enhanced interrogation" first, before war broke out, then intensified into whatever was going on in the concentration camps.

    You need to nip these things in the bud or they get out of control.

    It is a gradual process. German scientists and officials literally started out with, among other things, "How long can someone survive without food? Well, we've got a bunch of communists sitting in jail here, let's find out."

    I'm also inclined to believe that this is just the surface. Governments tend to be at least mildly proficient at hiding things, at least for a while.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2010
    Synthesis wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Comparison to the Nazis is pretty appropriate at this point, since the stuff in the OP most likely just barely scratches the surface of this shit.

    I don't think they're appropriate. The little bits I've read of the Nazi experiments were worse than imaginable. How long can a newborn live without food? What amount of pressure will cause an adult's lungs to pop? And after we whipped the Nazis, we didn't burn the findings as we searched their labs and offices - we kept them. The need to experiment on prisoners until they expire is lessened because we have the Nazis' notes.

    The point is that it starts little by little. First you waterboard someone to make them feel as if they are drowning, then you test how far they can hold their breath without drowning, then you tie rocks to their ankles and throw them in the river to actually drown.

    Even the Nazis didn't start by throwing Jews in furnaces. It started out as "enhanced interrogation" first, before war broke out, then intensified into whatever was going on in the concentration camps.

    You need to nip these things in the bud or they get out of control.

    It is a gradual process. German scientists and officials literally started out with, among other things, "How long can someone survive without food? Well, we've got a bunch of communists sitting in jail here, let's find out."

    I'm also inclined to believe that this is just the surface. Governments tend to be at least mildly proficient at hiding things, at least for a while.

    As long as they get the ability to arbitrarily classify anything and everything as "top secret" or "confidential", with absolutely no oversight, it's pretty easy to do.

    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Depending how you ask it, torturing people has majority support. Tasers have more support than that.

    We're not very nice people.
    The world's not a nice place. Sometimes, unpleasant interrogation techniques are needed to get information.

    A lot of people in this country have gotten too squeamish and soft, IMO.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • NartwakNartwak Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Shut up.

    Spoiler:
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Depending how you ask it, torturing people has majority support. Tasers have more support than that.

    We're not very nice people.
    The world's not a nice place. Sometimes, unpleasant interrogation techniques are needed to get information.

    A lot of people in this country have gotten too squeamish and soft, IMO.

    Except for the little fact that information gained out of torture is never reliable. A man will tell you anything to make the pain stop.

    You're a silly goose, sir.
    Nartwak wrote: »
    Shut up.

    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Depending how you ask it, torturing people has majority support. Tasers have more support than that.

    We're not very nice people.
    The world's not a nice place. Sometimes, unpleasant interrogation techniques are needed to get information.

    A lot of people in this country have gotten too squeamish and soft, IMO.

    1) It doesn't work
    2) It's counter-productive
    3) It's illegal
    4) It's morally abhorrent
    5) It kills people
    6) Now we can't convict people except in kangaroo courts

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Now all of a sudden Mr. Tough Guy thinks the Founding Fathers were pussies because they didn't believe in cruel and unusual punishment.

    The libertarian response to anything is, "Sure, that works fine in practice, but it doesn't fly in theory."
  • override367override367 misogynist/MRA/socially irresponsible Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Raakam wrote: »
    Why does there seem to be such a massive disconnect between the citizens and the high ups in government? If I sample all my friends, I have a few more democrats than republicans, and none of them are batshit crazy. Where do the people who condone this sort of behavior live? Do you guys know anyone that would say "this is justified/a good thing"?
    It makes zero sense. Usually, they say follow the money and you'll find a reason. Where's the incentive here?

    I just can't seem to reconciliate my experience of the US with the reality of its government. So incredibly stupid.

    Every friend I have whos been in the military save for one would pretty much be fine with executing every arab in the US "just in case"

    XBLIVE: Biggestoverride
    League of Legends: override367
  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Depending how you ask it, torturing people has majority support. Tasers have more support than that.

    We're not very nice people.
    The world's not a nice place. Sometimes, unpleasant interrogation techniques are needed to get information.

    A lot of people in this country have gotten too squeamish and soft, IMO.
    Were you mistreated as a child?

    "Adios, mofo" -- TX Gov Rick Perry (R)
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Nartwak wrote: »
    Shut up.
    Nope, sorry. Not your call.

    (I was going to say "make me" but decided not to)

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Nartwak wrote: »
    Shut up.
    Nope, sorry. Not your call.

    (I was going to say "make me" but decided not to)

    I am seriously fucking tempted to report this post "for purely ironic purposes". But I don't want to get smacked by an admin myself.

    Regardless, my opinions on the matter:

    1) Not really that surprising. As others have said, that they would use data from their torture to devise BETTER torture is not unexpected.
    2) Still fucking terrible.
    3) The CIA pretty much has always acted completely outside the control of the president. I'm not sure how much you can blame Bush for this when during past presidencies you'd have the CIA literally working directly against the president. See: Black Civil Rights.

    Pony_Sig.png
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Guys, don't let Modern Man's ethics disrupt this thread. We should all be used to them by now.

    Much like the government being full of monsters. :( The CIA really needs to be wrangled in already.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Nartwak wrote: »
    Shut up.
    Nope, sorry. Not your call.

    (I was going to say "make me" but decided not to)

    I know that it was much easier to go for Nar's low hanging fruit there, but I'd love to see you address EB's points, myself.

    camo_sig2.png
  • DelzhandDelzhand motivated battle programmerRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    I'm only shocked because I thought Bush's administration was anti-science.

    I'd hardly call what they were doing "science"

    I'd hardly call it experimenting, as well.



    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for war crimes charges, but it seems to me like they were trying to up the efficiency on their inhumane torturing, not actually conducting experiments.

    Yeah, I honestly expected this to be worse. I mean, "we haven't fed him in 42 days, is he still alive? Okay, let's see if he makes 43." That's barely experimentation, more like observation.

    I figured this would be more like "how long can we stand this guy in the field of a Active Denial System before he goes crazy from the pain?" or "how much of this mystery drug will it take before an Islamic militant recants his faith".

    Edit: That isn't to say I don't think it's reprehensible, but I expected 10 steps beyond legal, while this is only a few.

    jk0Btsj.png
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Depending how you ask it, torturing people has majority support. Tasers have more support than that.

    We're not very nice people.
    The world's not a nice place. Sometimes, unpleasant interrogation techniques are needed to get information.

    A lot of people in this country have gotten too squeamish and soft, IMO.
    Go back to Russia.

    No museum needs another upside-down toilet bowl once it has one.
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    Do we know that these experiments were conducted on people who weren't murderous terrorists?

    We're STILL the US.
    We still don't (or shouldn't) do shit like that. We're supposed to be better than them, at least in spirit.

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Just... Just, the worstRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    The last time torture reveals came up in this sort of light I was pretty much blind with rage

    So when are people going to be okay with some sort of hearing on this thing? The excuse last time was, "It would be stupid of Obama to risk not being able to pass his agenda because he punished war criminals! We need those Republican votes!"

    Then the Republicans refused to provide any support on anything regardless, so it didn't make a fucking difference

    And you know, a lot of the same people who said that keeping Obama from being distracted by prosecuting war criminals was the lesser of two evils were also screaming for Roman Polanski's blood in a sippy cup

    I wanted Polanski prosecuted because he committed a crime and made a mockery of the justice system, kind of like some other people we know

    "Look forward, not back" is pretty much the most useless platitude I've ever heard in my life

    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I get by on the knowledge that I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time mucking about inside of my asshole anyway
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Nartwak wrote: »
    Shut up.
    Nope, sorry. Not your call.

    (I was going to say "make me" but decided not to)

    I know that it was much easier to go for Nar's low hanging fruit there, but I'd love to see you address EB's points, myself.

    Sure, why not:
    1) It doesn't work
    2) It's counter-productive
    3) It's illegal
    4) It's morally abhorrent
    5) It kills people
    6) Now we can't convict people except in kangaroo courts


    1) It can work, since you can verify what the detainee says. If he tells you that "in location x, you'll find a bomb factory" and you do, then the interrogation is working. If it becomes apparent that the information he's giving you is false, then you'll eventually stop talking to that guy because he doesn't have anything to give you.

    2) Counter-productive to what?

    3) It depends on the techniques being used.

    4) Obviously, people disagree on this point. I don't find it morally repugnant to use these techniques in certain situations.

    5) Sure. So what?

    6) Sure you can. You just can't use any information you obtain through these techniques in court. But, you're not trying to get a conviction with these techniques, anyway.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Counter productive because torturing innocent people makes fucking terrorists both out of them and when people hear about it you silly, silly goose.
    5) Sure. So what?

    Hey, you finally topped your woooo my roommates gang raped a girl story for most morally repugnant thing you've posted on these boards!

    Oh, also it's illegal presumably because we prosecuted people for it (yes, waterboarding was one of those things). Or is that different because yellow people did it?

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    If it becomes apparent that the information he's giving you is false, then you'll eventually stop talking to that guy because he doesn't have anything to give you.
    So then, according to your reasoning, all a prisoner has to do is keep lying and no more torture. What`s the point then, other than to satisfy sadists like you.

    No museum needs another upside-down toilet bowl once it has one.
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2010
    Lucid wrote: »
    If it becomes apparent that the information he's giving you is false, then you'll eventually stop talking to that guy because he doesn't have anything to give you.
    So then, according to your reasoning, all a prisoner has to do is keep lying and no more torture. What`s the point then, other than to satisfy sadists like you.

    no you see you keep torturing him until he starts giving you correct information

    or until he dies

    whichever comes first

    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • Metal Gear Solid 2 DemoMetal Gear Solid 2 Demo Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Nartwak wrote: »
    Shut up.
    Nope, sorry. Not your call.

    (I was going to say "make me" but decided not to)

    I know that it was much easier to go for Nar's low hanging fruit there, but I'd love to see you address EB's points, myself.

    Sure, why not:
    1) It doesn't work
    2) It's counter-productive
    3) It's illegal
    4) It's morally abhorrent
    5) It kills people
    6) Now we can't convict people except in kangaroo courts


    1) It can work, since you can verify what the detainee says. If he tells you that "in location x, you'll find a bomb factory" and you do, then the interrogation is working. If it becomes apparent that the information he's giving you is false, then you'll eventually stop talking to that guy because he doesn't have anything to give you.

    2) Counter-productive to what?

    3) It depends on the techniques being used.

    4) Obviously, people disagree on this point. I don't find it morally repugnant to use these techniques in certain situations.

    5) Sure. So what?

    6) Sure you can. You just can't use any information you obtain through these techniques in court. But, you're not trying to get a conviction with these techniques, anyway.

    You're probably great at parties

    Spoiler:
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    More things I forgot: it opens up our soldiers to be tortured and then us being called hypocritical assholes when we object.

    When we ask Pakistan to actually have a functioning justice system, they laugh in our face.

    When we claim we're the friends of Muslims in a continuing campaign to win hearts and minds, our actions pretty clearly don't line up with our words and we're dismissed.

    This shit isn't hard.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    If you have time to verify information gleaned from torture then you are obviously not in one of the fabled "ticking time bomb" scenarios that would justify torture in the first place.

  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Thank you guys for saying everything I wanted to reply to MM with.

    I was having trouble phrasing it a way that wasn't overly hostile.

    camo_sig2.png
Sign In or Register to comment.