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New (or Used?) Cars And The Purchasing Thereof!

desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
edited June 2010 in Help / Advice Forum
So I'm thinking of doing one of those 'adult' things and buying myself a new car.

Rukus_420-420x0.jpg

Specs.

(Basically a Toyota badged Scion xB.)

Anyway, questionable aesthetic aside, I haven't bought a new car before (current car was bought by a parent for me 5 years ago) and want some advice on not being taken for a ride. So:
Spoiler:

UPDATE:

Okay, so after being prompted by so many of you to consider again a 'used' car, I'm rethinking my options, and I'm looking again at the Nissan Cube.

Here's the ad.

The thing that turned me off initially was the high cost of insurance, but I've found a place that will insure it for a reasonable amount, not too much more than I'm currently paying. So it's back on the table, and at $110 per fortnight for repayments it's super affordable.

So now instead of looking at buying a new Toyota, I'm looking at a used Nissan with 52,000km on the clock. It will be coming from a small dealer that imports vehicles.

Can anyone give me some tips/ideas on not getting fucked over when buying a used car? (The car has been advertised for a while now; either everyone else hates how it looks - likely - or is it possible people are seeing something about the car that I wouldn't know what to look for...?)

Also I'll be going from a 1.6l engine down to a 1.4 -- Is this likely to be noticeable/annoying at all?

Thanks :D

desperaterobots on
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Posts

  • bikkibikkibobikkibikkibo Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    This topic is also relevant to my interests. I'm basically in the same situation, except my car is only worth about 2k in trade in. I want a VW GTI. unnnf.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • UsagiUsagi Feminazgul ~*special snowflake*~Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    So is there a reason you want a new car?

    Generally you get a better deal buying one that's a year or two old, after the ridiculous early price depreciation has happened but while the car still has low mileage and is usually still under warranty.

    Jormungandr? Damn near killed 'er!
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  • EncEnc FloridaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Usagi wrote: »
    So is there a reason you want a new car?

    Generally you get a better deal buying one that's a year or two old, after the ridiculous early price depreciation has happened but while the car still has low mileage and is usually still under warranty.

    This. I was in the market early this year and every toyota dealership I went to was shady as hell, and even with their crazy awesome incentives, the car price was always way more than what the sticker listed by the end of negotiations.

    Then I went to carmax, found the same car with 30 thousand miles on it for 10k less, no appreciable damage, a flawless carfax report, and saved a buttload of cash.

    Also, do you know your credit score? Do you know what APR you can qualify for? The last thing you want is to get to the dealership and have them tell you what your score is without knowing and throw some ridiculous APR your way and get you stuck with 5-10k in interest.

    Guns make you stupid. Better to fight your wars with duct tape. Duct tape makes you smart.
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  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I have always been low-balled by the dealer on my trade. If you want the best price for you vehicle you should sell it yourself.

    For example the dealer initially offerred me $4500 for my car, after much haggling/arguing I walked out and he offered me $6K as if he were throwing me a bone. KBB said it was worth $10K trade, I just sold it for $11K private party.

    And $30K for a scion? Even with a 1.2 AUD to 1 USD exchange rate that sounds nuts. A scion xB base stickers for $16520 USD here in the states, why is yours so expensive? Are there significant import duties or additional state/national taxes and fees?


    Edit: Selling yourself also makes the transaction cleaner, all you're haggling about is the price of the new car instead of both the trade and the new car. You can say I want it for X, I'll deposit N, yes or no, and just walk if they don't play ball.

  • kaliyamakaliyama Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    A bunch of americans and canadians are going to give you advice because people always chime in with parochial nonsense in threads about law, business or anything else region-specific. the economics and incentives of australian car dealers may or may not be identicalto other countries. Seek out country-specific advice.

    fwKS7.png?1
  • eatmosushieatmosushi __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2010
    may i direct your attention to the nissan cube?

    i have one.


    the ladies can't get enough.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Spun uncontrollably skyward... Driven brutally into the ground
  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    (Someone suggested I go in upfront and say 'This is the deal, I want this car but I only have [preferred dollar amount] in pre-approved finance. I've exhausted all other avenues for cash, so what can you give me for my trade in, and what can you do about the price?' and hope that they make up the difference. Stupid? Smart? I have no clue.)

    You can try that, but I found being honest is best. You don't have to lay out all your cards on the table at first, but if you say you only have X amount and they cannot hit that price then there is no deal, or they'll try to get you to finance through them.

    Find out the delta (the difference between new car purchase price and trade in sale price) you can tolerate beforehand. Hold to that as the max you can pay. It's easy to get swayed into paying more by new car hotness and getting worn down by the negotiation process. If it stalls and their price is higher then your max, walk. You might just get them to offer you what you want.

  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I don't need any finance advice, I'm getting a discounted interest rate, fee-free, flexible loan with my work.
    Usagi wrote: »
    So is there a reason you want a new car?

    Generally you get a better deal buying one that's a year or two old, after the ridiculous early price depreciation has happened but while the car still has low mileage and is usually still under warranty.

    This car is new here, so there are no used ones. Imported cars = Super expensive insurance.
    eatmosushi wrote:
    may i direct your attention to the nissan cube?

    Totally! I was actually going to buy an imported Cube for around $13k, but yeah. Insurance on an import is ridiculous. I work for a car insurer, they wouldn't touch it, so I couldn't get my discount. The only place that would do it was going to charge me $200 a month (compared to the $25 a month I pay now!).

    This car being new, and a local release, means I'll be looking at a very similar cost, insurance wise, to what I currently pay.
    Djeet wrote:
    have always been low-balled by the dealer on my trade. If you want the best price for you vehicle you should sell it yourself.

    I'm thinking of taking my car to a few different dealers to get a feel for the trade in price I'll get. If it's particularly low, I might try to get finance for a loan big enough to pay for the new car, then sell the new one & pay a chunk off the loan with the cash. But to be honest, I'd rather not deal with it myself. Also can't be without a car for more than 3 days with my work, so a swap-over at the dealer would be convenient.
    Djeet wrote:
    And $30K for a scion? Even with a 1.2 AUD to 1 USD exchange rate that sounds nuts. A scion xB base stickers for $16520 USD here in the states, why is yours so expensive? Are there significant import duties or additional state/national taxes and fees?

    Probably a few reasons. Lower volumes in Australia, maybe? Less competition? Also I'm going with leather seats and better sound system etc. I think the standard features are a bit better here too, maybe. And it's not actually a 'Scion' here, it's a Toyota, and they're are always more expensive because of their percieved superior reliability/resale value. And, I dunno, car dealers are greedy cunts too maybe.

    Oh and yeah: I'm in Australia.

  • TejsTejs Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    My only specific advice would be to go in well informed about the value of the car, The financing you can arrange OUTSIDE of the dealership (and then compare to inside the dealership to see which is better), and to be confident on replying 'no' to additional extras that may cost you (for example, special maintenance programs or odd incentives).

    Also go in with the research you have done. If you have it with you, you have a bargaining chip if you want to haggle the price of a car. The "if you can't match this piece of paper I have in my hand, why would I want to buy from you?"

    Always be ready to walk away. Always.

  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Yeah. I basically cannot pay more than 27000 for the car, after a $5k trade-in and deposit. I guess my aim is to have the dealer cut me some slack so I don't have to deposit $2k of my own cash...

    Does it just come down to being lucky with a dude who's desperate to make a sale? Or do I have to be a jerk?

  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    You don't have to be a jerk, in fact I'd recommend against it. You're being asked to fork over (or become indebted for) a very large sum of money, there's nothing jerky about being firm, sticking to your guns and walking if the deal doesn't feel right to you. They aren't doing you a favor by selling you a car, especially considering you've already secured your own financing.

  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Ask about ex-demo models.

    You save a ton, you get a car that is still nearly brand-new and you don't have to break in the engine for the first 500kms as most demo cars will have done 1000-2000kms. Yeah, its probably been test-driven quite a bit, but that doesn't do anywhere near the amount of damage you'd expect.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    is there a reason you're not willing to look at other cars?

    I've heard good things about the car you want, but I've heard even better things about the Mazda 3 which retails for $23,490.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    It has the cargo space I want, and comes with pretty awesome standard features. I also really like to look of it. The choice of car isn't really something I'm keen to debate - I've kind of made my mind up :) I just want to know how far I can realistically push the dealer into giving me a decent price :)

  • Liquid HellzLiquid Hellz Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    If there are multiple dealerships in the area play them against one another. I have 4 Ford dealers within 20 miles so I just went back and forth between them for a month until I got the price I wanted.

    What I do for a living:
    Home Inspection and Wind Mitigation
    http://www.FairWindInspections.com/
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    It has the cargo space I want, and comes with pretty awesome standard features. I also really like to look of it. The choice of car isn't really something I'm keen to debate - I've kind of made my mind up :) I just want to know how far I can realistically push the dealer into giving me a decent price :)

    have you included on-road costs in your pricing?

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Yeah, on-road costs are included.

    Has anyone used a car broker before? This site looks pretty dodgy, but the pitch sounds interesting.

    http://www.carbroker.com.au/

  • TefTef Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    try redbook.com.au first off to get a good understanding of what your car's worth/ the approximate worth of the car you're looking at.

    Which dealer in Perth are you looking at? As a sandgroper myself I'm familiar with a few. Have you tried John Hughes? I'm happy with the car I bought off them (a toyota cruiser).
    (Someone suggested I go in upfront and say 'This is the deal, I want this car but I only have [preferred dollar amount] in pre-approved finance. I've exhausted all other avenues for cash, so what can you give me for my trade in, and what can you do about the price?' and hope that they make up the difference. Stupid? Smart? I have no clue.)

    If you absolutely insist on getting a brand new car (which honestly I don't suggest) I say go with the advice you've been given. Tell them as well that another toyota dealer has agreed to x amount, can they beat it? (even if another dealer hasn't given you that figure).

    Also, are you going in to talk with them by yourself? Personally my advice is take someone along with you for backup, someone you trust. They don't have to say anything but a bit of support is so handy because they WILL try and pressure you into a deal that day ("oh, if my boss found out i was making this deal... we better close it out today etc etc)

    I'd highly recommend independant finance from your bank. It's usually a much better option. Also, with your credit rating, Oz works differently to the States in that the only credit rating/history you can have is a bad one. Australian institutions don't have a 'positive' credit rating system, so don't let them (or your bank) suck you in with higher rates (shouldn't happen anyway) or offers to 'start a credit history' with loans or credit cards.

    Good luck!

  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I haven't approached any dealers yet, but I will say that when I was first looking at the car I own now, I went to John Hughes for a look at it, and my experience with the salesman there was high-pressure bullshit. We wound up buying it elsewhere because, yeah, the guy was a huge jerk. But it could just be a bad apple, I guess, and I think I'm probably a little bit more immune to that now...

    There are a few Toyota dealers around near me, I guess I'll have to go to them all and see what they can do. I don't really have anyone to go with - I'll ask around to see if someone wants to give me some support. :)

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Most car salesman are extremely high pressure salesmen. Why wouldn't they be? every car they sell is a big (usually) commission for them.

    its not an unusual thing and you will most likely have to deal with it at almost any dealership barring places like Ferrari and Lamborghini dealerships because I would imagine their cars sell themselves, almost.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Okay, so after being prompted by so many of you to consider again a 'used' car, I'm rethinking my options, and I'm looking again at the Nissan Cube.

    Here's the ad.

    The thing that turned me off initially was the high cost of insurance, but I've found a place that will insure it for a reasonable amount, not too much more than I'm currently paying. So it's back on the table, and at $110 per fortnight for repayments it's super affordable.

    So now instead of looking at buying a new Toyota, I'm looking at a used Nissan with 52,000km on the clock. It will be coming from a small dealer that imports vehicles.

    Can anyone give me some tips/ideas on not getting fucked over when buying a used car? (The car has been advertised for a while now; either everyone else hates how it looks - likely - or is it possible people are seeing something about the car that I wouldn't know what to look for...?)

    Also I'll be going from a 1.6l engine down to a 1.4 -- Is this likely to be noticeable/annoying at all?

    Thanks!

  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    For a car with that kind of age/mileage I'd be concerned about parts wear (brake pads and rotors, tires) and maintenance oriented towards long-term reliability (transmission fluid flush and filter change, if not done I'd probably do it relatively soon). Obviously they'll need to be serviced/replaced sooner then if you were buying new. That's not a warning not to buy a used car, just that you're going to see maintenance expense crop up earlier then if you bought new.

    Check the gaps in the body panels, particularly where the grille and bumper covers meet the fenders and hood/hatch. If the tolerances are inconsistent then it's likely there was an impact at some time.

    Make sure you check your financing on used cars, the terms are often not as good for used as new.

  • ScrubletScrublet Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Now I have no idea if this holds true in Australia. However, in the States, the Scion is no-haggle pricing. While dealers are free to set their own prices, once they do that's what it is. You generally cannot haggle down a Scion. You may get somewhere with your trade-in, but that will be about it and as others mentioned you'll still probably make more selling it on your own. My understanding is that this was done because the Scions are pretty cheap for their feature set as it is because Toyota wanted to break into a younger market (Camrys aren't sexy...who knew?) They discontinued the Celica and started up the tCs. That's what I was told anyways.

    subedii wrote: »
    I hear PC gaming is huge off the coast of Somalia right now.
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Scrublet: Yeah, it's not the same deal here; it's just being launched as another Toyota model, and it's by no means cheap. Haggling is still on the table as far as I understand.

    Djeet: Thanks for that info, especially on the used v new finance thing. I'll have to double check the interest rates and stuff.

  • Count FunkulaCount Funkula Registered User
    edited June 2010
    Also, in the US, that car (Scion xB) has a 2.4L engine. I don't think I'd want to drive that car with a 1.6L. It moves pretty well with the 2.4, anything less and I'd be terrified while merging onto the freeway.

    Edit: The Australian version has the 2.4L engine as well. You're all good. I love my xB. They are actually fun to drive/fairly fast, despite their boxy looks.

    "While its Japanese counterpart utilises the company's small 1.3 and 1.5 litre petrol engines, the Australian-delivered Rukus draws power from a 2.4 litre four-cylinder petrol engine, producing 123kW of power and using 8.8 litres of unleaded petrol per 100km on the combined cycle."

    From:

    http://www.themotorreport.com.au/50323/2010-toyota-rukus-launched-in-australia

  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Maybe I should update the OP, since it looks like people are missing my later posts...

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Okay, so after being prompted by so many of you to consider again a 'used' car, I'm rethinking my options, and I'm looking again at the Nissan Cube.

    Here's the ad.

    The thing that turned me off initially was the high cost of insurance, but I've found a place that will insure it for a reasonable amount, not too much more than I'm currently paying. So it's back on the table, and at $110 per fortnight for repayments it's super affordable.

    So now instead of looking at buying a new Toyota, I'm looking at a used Nissan with 52,000km on the clock. It will be coming from a small dealer that imports vehicles.

    Can anyone give me some tips/ideas on not getting fucked over when buying a used car? (The car has been advertised for a while now; either everyone else hates how it looks - likely - or is it possible people are seeing something about the car that I wouldn't know what to look for...?)

    Also I'll be going from a 1.6l engine down to a 1.4 -- Is this likely to be noticeable/annoying at all?

    Thanks!

    52,000kms is fairly low depending on the age. Its not too bad.

    If you're seriously considering that particular car, if you're an RAC member get a 100pt on-site RAC check done. They'll check EVERYTHING. As to the 1.6 -> 1.4, no, you won't really notice, both 1.4 and 1.6 engines will struggle to move the car to be honest. If zippiness is what you're looking for, you won't get it.

    Also, this is purely subjective, but I think I would throw up everytime I got in that car just because of how buttfucking ugly it is. Do you actually _like_ that look or are you just ambivalent about the car's looks? Because I'm looking up mental hospitals for you right now if its the former.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Also, I'm watching Top Gear repeats on Foxtel and they're testing the Nissan Cube. I'll tell you what they think ;)

    edit: ok they spent about 90% of the time bashing the looks

    then the rest bashing the jerky and lurching auto gearbox and the noisy engine that makes a lot of noise and doesn't really do anything, and the way it feels as if its going to roll over on every corner

    really do THOROUGHLY test drive that car.

    edit 2: final verdict from them : buy the Cube if you have a black and white cat and your name is Pat.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Yeah I like the way it looks.

    I've wanted an original Scion Box-On-Wheels since they first came out, but saw a Cube on the roads recently and thought it looked awesome: futuristic, weird, roboty and japanese. And the thing is, I still want to drive a small car but I need more cargo space - I need to cart around large canvases, and at the moment I need to have them moved around for me by friends. The Rukus and Cube are pretty much the only two small cars that I like the look of and have the space I need. Also it will be nice to have four doors! If I didn't need the extra space, I'd probably look at something like the Holden Cruze - or just stick with what I've got.

    I emailed the dealer about the cube but I haven't heard back yet. I've heard about it being a 'noisy' engine, so I'm looking forward to test driving it. If the interior feels too shitty I'll have to reconsider the Rukus.

    And yeah, I love Top Gear, but I take every review of theirs with a very large grain of Old Man On A Light Entertainment Show brand salt, hehe.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Test a 4 door Honda Jazz.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • WezoinWezoin Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    This may not be what you're looking for, since even though the Toyota is small it looks a bit SUV-ish so you may be going for that look, but I usually recommend people looking in this segment to at least try out the Mazda 3.

  • VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Just thought I'd throw this out there:

    Yesterday, a Honda Element passed me with a sticker on the window, "You were just passed by a toaster."

    CoH_infantry.jpg
    Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Thanks for all the advice in this thread guys. I've decided the price for the Rukus, for what it is, is really way too high - even though when I see them in person I sort of fall in love a little bit. I went to a car yard today to have a proper look in real life, and nearby there was an '07 Prius with 46,000km on the clock for $19990. Even though I wouldn't buy it, it just sort of highlighted to me the extreme disparity in New/Used prices, and I'm no longer sure that I'm prepared to pay the premium for New Car Smell.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    at least you're not considering a Prius.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • soxboxsoxbox Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    If you do buy new:

    I bought my current (9 year old) car through a car broker, probably not the same guys running that website, but a similar situation. I ended up getting the car for about $1000 less than what I'd been able to get any dealerships near me to agree to - the broker ended up sourcing it from Geelong (I work in Melbourne's east), which wasn't an issue - the dealership sent a guy to pick me up from work when I needed to pick up the car and also sent somebody to pick the car up for its first 1000km service - that's pretty much the extent of having to deal with the dealership, so had no issues there.

  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Sounds good....

    I just learned I can salary-sacrifice/salary-package a new car at my job here, and it looks like a pretty sweet deal. They source the car via a broker too, so discounts ahoy... I might wind up considering the Rukus again if the sums for the salary-package come out okay...

    If anyone has any salary-packaging advice relevant to australia I'd be keen to hear it....!

  • eatmosushieatmosushi __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2010
    I'm still pleased as pie with my nissan cube. Just throwing that in the mix

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Spun uncontrollably skyward... Driven brutally into the ground
  • DiogeeDiogee Registered User
    edited June 2010
    You Aussies are strange. Petrol, liters, kilometers, salary-package car buying.. what??

    Anyways, I just bought a '10 Acura TSX here in the USA and got a killer deal. Sticker price (w/tech package) was $33,210 and I took for $28,249 (+tax title license)... all I did was go to Edmonds.com or any other auto site and submit a request for nearby dealership quotes. There were 5 dealers within 50 miles of me, they all came back with different prices and I took the best one and forwarded it on to the other 4 and said "Beat this and Ill buy the car from you this weekend". After 2 or 3 rounds of this I took the best quote to the most local dealer, bought the car and I'm very happy :D

  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    You can keep your inches, quarts and blamwhiffs, quite frankly!

    But yeah, I submitted a single online request to a third-party website for rough ideas on price with my trade-in. I quickly got 10 voice mails from car salesman asking that I call them to 'discuss my needs' (plainly explained in the original enquiry). Then I got 10 emails asking why I hadn't called, and then a further 10 emails threatening to 'remove me from their diaries' if I didn't get in touch.

    I imagine it's similar to being a hot girl on a dating website being sent messages by jerks.

    Having said that, it looks like they're all chasing sales so I'll give them all a call eventually. Just have to decide on how I'm going to proceed.

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