Man, in my opinion ME2's dialogue trashed DA's. Because it was pretty easy to quickly pick your dialogue options in ME2 (what with them being 3 words long max or some such) the dialogue flowed like an actual conversation. Opposed to DA where I'd have essentially a paragraph of shit to read before picking the one I wanted to use.
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
Man, in my opinion ME2's dialogue trashed DA's. Because it was pretty easy to quickly pick your dialogue options in ME2 (what with them being 3 words long max or some such) the dialogue flowed like an actual conversation. Opposed to DA where I'd have essentially a paragraph of shit to read before picking the one I wanted to use.
The main problem with the dialog in the ME games is occasionally getting dialog that doesn't match the abbreviated text you select at all. It's a problem with writing though, not the system.
Man, in my opinion ME2's dialogue trashed DA's. Because it was pretty easy to quickly pick your dialogue options in ME2 (what with them being 3 words long max or some such) the dialogue flowed like an actual conversation. Opposed to DA where I'd have essentially a paragraph of shit to read before picking the one I wanted to use.
The main problem with the dialog in the ME games is occasionally getting dialog that doesn't match the abbreviated text you select at all. It's a problem with writing though, not the system.
At least AP realized that, and made it explicitly clear that what the selection said wasn't actually important, and just had you choose directly from 3 archetypes + facedesk
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AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
Man, in my opinion ME2's dialogue trashed DA's. Because it was pretty easy to quickly pick your dialogue options in ME2 (what with them being 3 words long max or some such) the dialogue flowed like an actual conversation. Opposed to DA where I'd have essentially a paragraph of shit to read before picking the one I wanted to use.
The main problem with the dialog in the ME games is occasionally getting dialog that doesn't match the abbreviated text you select at all. It's a problem with writing though, not the system.
At least AP realized that, and made it explicitly clear that what the selection said wasn't actually important, and just had you choose directly from 3 archetypes + facedesk
Ah, facedesk.
Always the appropriate choice every single time.
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User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
Well, the robes for female mages are ok. But they still just look like a man wearing a dress on the male mages. That image leads me to believe the robes wont change much.
Yeah, as I've said in the other DA threads I wish that the "big, blue dress" trope for male Wizards would die out. Hell, not even Gandalf wore a dress all the time..
The main problem with the dialog in the ME games is occasionally getting dialog that doesn't match the abbreviated text you select at all. It's a problem with writing though, not the system.
I remember having more problems in DA, often selecting a response that I assumed was joking or sarcastic, only to have the NPC respond as though I'd spat in their face. ME2 had surprises too, but the ones I remember were mostly pleasant, like "Go to hell" becoming "I'll relinquish a single bullet. Where do you want it?"
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jefe414"My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter"Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Just put your mage in leather armor. Sure the stats suck but whatever.
The main problem with the dialog in the ME games is occasionally getting dialog that doesn't match the abbreviated text you select at all. It's a problem with writing though, not the system.
I remember having more problems in DA, often selecting a response that I assumed was joking or sarcastic, only to have the NPC respond as though I'd spat in their face. ME2 had surprises too, but the ones I remember were mostly pleasant, like "Go to hell" becoming "I'll relinquish a single bullet. Where do you want it?"
This was particularly annoying with Alister, who is always making jokes. You try to make a joke, he flips out.
I feel like the best of both worlds is some combination of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and Alpha Protocol.
So for most dialog, it'd be a ME-style short responses- only the *intent* of the message is summarized in one word a la Alpha Protocol.
Be like, Do you need help? [kind] Figure it out for yourself [Callous], etc.
But for particularly important "what can change the nature of a man" conversations, you have DA/BG2/PST style actual line-for-line text dialog to choose from.
The main problem with the dialog in the ME games is occasionally getting dialog that doesn't match the abbreviated text you select at all. It's a problem with writing though, not the system.
I remember having more problems in DA, often selecting a response that I assumed was joking or sarcastic, only to have the NPC respond as though I'd spat in their face. ME2 had surprises too, but the ones I remember were mostly pleasant, like "Go to hell" becoming "I'll relinquish a single bullet. Where do you want it?"
This was particularly annoying with Alister, who is always making jokes. You try to make a joke, he flips out.
I feel like the best of both worlds is some combination of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and Alpha Protocol.
So for most dialog, it'd be a ME-style short responses- only the *intent* of the message is summarized in one word a la Alpha Protocol.
Be like, Do you need help? [kind] Figure it out for yourself [Callous], etc.
But for particularly important "what can change the nature of a man" conversations, you have DA/BG2/PST style actual line-for-line text dialog to choose from.
My fantasy dialog system would actually use 2 "sections." The first section would be what you say, whether its a short couple of words like ME or full sentences like DA. The second section would be your emotion behind what you say, so that would would have things like Sarcastic, Joking, Angry, Annoyed, etc. Sure it would be stupidly complicated, but then you would always be able to set exactly how you wanted to sound and what you say.
The main problem with the dialog in the ME games is occasionally getting dialog that doesn't match the abbreviated text you select at all. It's a problem with writing though, not the system.
I remember having more problems in DA, often selecting a response that I assumed was joking or sarcastic, only to have the NPC respond as though I'd spat in their face. ME2 had surprises too, but the ones I remember were mostly pleasant, like "Go to hell" becoming "I'll relinquish a single bullet. Where do you want it?"
This was particularly annoying with Alister, who is always making jokes. You try to make a joke, he flips out.
I feel like the best of both worlds is some combination of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and Alpha Protocol.
So for most dialog, it'd be a ME-style short responses- only the *intent* of the message is summarized in one word a la Alpha Protocol.
Be like, Do you need help? [kind] Figure it out for yourself [Callous], etc.
But for particularly important "what can change the nature of a man" conversations, you have DA/BG2/PST style actual line-for-line text dialog to choose from.
My fantasy dialog system would actually use 2 "sections." The first section would be what you say, whether its a short couple of words like ME or full sentences like DA. The second section would be your emotion behind what you say, so that would would have things like Sarcastic, Joking, Angry, Annoyed, etc. Sure it would be stupidly complicated, but then you would always be able to set exactly how you wanted to sound and what you say.
This would be awesome, but logistics get in the way. With at least two inflections for every line, every conversation becomes a labyrinthine mess of possible responses. I don't know how they could correctly give you full-voice companions like that.
Man, in my opinion ME2's dialogue trashed DA's. Because it was pretty easy to quickly pick your dialogue options in ME2 (what with them being 3 words long max or some such) the dialogue flowed like an actual conversation. Opposed to DA where I'd have essentially a paragraph of shit to read before picking the one I wanted to use.
I actually like the "paragraph of shit" aspect, and find choosing a response that best matches what I want to say (or just the funniest option) to be a lot more fun than good/neutral/evil sans flavor. Hell, mostly it was never even a choice because I was trying so hard to accumulate paragon points that I just clicked "good" every time. (At least ME2, when the actual dialog didn't match what you expected, sometimes erred on the side of awesome. ME1 was just boring most of the time.)
I don't know why people hate on the ME dialog. It was amazing and the first of it's kind. Being able to pick your options based on good, bad and neutral without knowing exactly what would be said was great. It also kept the dialog going and the feeling like you were actually talking. You could actually choose your response before the otehr person finished so it went straight along.
DA was a shock and backwards step in the dialog department. It reminds me of how the PC in Fable never had a voice and your character just looked like a dummy whenever the camera was on them. At least in KoTOR your PC would make hilarious smirking faces.
In reality it's really no differant than seeing the full block of text and choosing it. It's still a set of 3-5 choices that are predetermined that you really have no say over.
And If your character says exactly what you choose than what's the point of the voiceover and acting? understand that the character isn't you it's Shepard and your watching/playing his story. You can decide to be nice or a dick but ultimatly it's a story about him.
I don't know why people hate on the ME dialog. It was amazing and the first of it's kind. Being able to pick your options based on good, bad and neutral without knowing exactly what would be said was great. It also kept the dialog going and the feeling like you were actually talking. You could actually choose your response before the otehr person finished so it went straight along.
I found ME1's dialog incredibly boring. Usually in an "old-fashioned" RPG you have one or two "funny" responses which honestly I think are one of the most fun parts of the whole "virtual conversation" thing. In ME2 things were a little better, due to better writing.
DA was a shock and backwards step in the dialog department. It reminds me of how the PC in Fable never had a voice and your character just looked like a dummy whenever the camera was on them. At least in KoTOR your PC would make hilarious smirking faces.
In reality it's really no differant than seeing the full block of text and choosing it. It's still a set of 3-5 choices that are predetermined that you really have no say over.
And If your character says exactly what you choose than what's the point of the voiceover and acting? understand that the character isn't you it's Shepard and your watching/playing his story. You can decide to be nice or a dick but ultimatly it's a story about him.
Yeah, and I have almost no emotional connection to my Shepard at all, whereas I'm extremely fond of my DA:O character whose every nuance of conversation style has been (the illusion of) my choice.
Mostly I didn't like ME's dialog because it was a very small amount of invariably boring choices (that mostly just boiled down to clicking "polite" every time to get paragon points) that then turned into even more boring spoken sentences (more a fault of ME1 than 2), whereas the DA system had a ton of variety.
I'm not hating on mass effect - I loved both games - but I'll be sad to see the "paragraph of text" system go, as I find it to be very fun - if not more fun - for the above reasons.
Man, in my opinion ME2's dialogue trashed DA's. Because it was pretty easy to quickly pick your dialogue options in ME2 (what with them being 3 words long max or some such) the dialogue flowed like an actual conversation. Opposed to DA where I'd have essentially a paragraph of shit to read before picking the one I wanted to use.
I actually like the "paragraph of shit" aspect, and find choosing a response that best matches what I want to say (or just the funniest option) to be a lot more fun than good/neutral/evil sans flavor. Hell, mostly it was never even a choice because I was trying so hard to accumulate paragon points that I just clicked "good" every time. (At least ME2, when the actual dialog didn't match what you expected, sometimes erred on the side of awesome. ME1 was just boring most of the time.)
if you just picked the top right every time that could explain why it lacked flavor for you
I'm a completionist, when a game puts something in my way that I need more paragon points to overcome I can't really help it.
Anyway, ME2 was a lot better, I didn't have many complaints, but I still miss the variety.
For me, the idea that ME conversations can flow was kind of a bust because I still sat around forever trying to decide which option to take at the more interesting junctures.
lol, you're complaining about missing variety but you only chose the same option over and over again. Did you want to get paragon points for insulting someone or hitting them in the face, or even being a little snarky?
EDIT: But yes, the paragon option is usually a little more bland but it is in most games. There are a couple of times you get to do the right thing and tell the bad guy he's wrong you'll kick his ass.
I'd prefer for there not to be paragon/renegade points at all.
Well, it's their attempt at creating a lasting impression and a reputation for your character. NPCs are supposed to react differently to you etc based on your previous actions. It would be interesting if it were done behind the scenes but people like seeing it so they know what to change or how much more they need to be nice or be a dick.
I don't mind the conversation options, but I felt like the interrupts were sometimes coded for either paragon or renegade when they could and should have been neutral. Throwing a merc out the window? Why is that renegade? If I hadn't done it I'd (I assume) have to gun him down after the conversation. Either way, he's dead. I was just more efficient by pushing him. Same with the guy who was working on the gunship. Either way I'm killing mercs and eventually shooting down that ship. All the renegade option did was take him out early. It's not like he was going to walk out of there anyhow.
I'd prefer for there not to be paragon/renegade points at all.
This so hard. If it's an achievement, a bonus to a stat, a chance for an item or just to see a bar fill I will go balls to wall Blue/Red instead of just going with the dialog option I would've chosen normally. It hasn't been all that detrimental to my enjoyment of the games, but I think the ride would've been alot more nuanced.
I'd prefer for there not to be paragon/renegade points at all.
Well, it's their attempt at creating a lasting impression and a reputation for your character. NPCs are supposed to react differently to you etc based on your previous actions. It would be interesting if it were done behind the scenes but people like seeing it so they know what to change or how much more they need to be nice or be a dick.
Then they should do a faction system. It would make more sense and actually allow for some hard choices in who to piss off and not piss off.
I'd prefer for there not to be paragon/renegade points at all.
This so hard. If it's an achievement, a bonus to a stat, a chance for an item or just to see a bar fill I will go balls to wall Blue/Red instead of just going with the dialog option I would've chosen normally. It hasn't been all that detrimental to my enjoyment of the games, but I think the ride would've been alot more nuanced.
If you play again, there are enough points available in ME2 that you can max one bar and get the other (I think) about halfway full. So you don't have to skip that renegade interrupt because you want to max your charm instead of intimidate.
I'd prefer for there not to be paragon/renegade points at all.
This so hard. If it's an achievement, a bonus to a stat, a chance for an item or just to see a bar fill I will go balls to wall Blue/Red instead of just going with the dialog option I would've chosen normally. It hasn't been all that detrimental to my enjoyment of the games, but I think the ride would've been alot more nuanced.
If you play again, there are enough points available in ME2 that you can max one bar and get the other (I think) about halfway full. So you don't have to skip that renegade interrupt because you want to max your charm instead of intimidate.
Yeah, I've been alittle less adamant about it in my second play-through. Hasn't stopped the nagging feeling that I'm playing the system rather then the character though. I rationalize it away with "Well, this Shepard really is a jackass and or saint", still would've prefered it without the system though, it adds nothing to the fun of the game.
I don't mind the conversation options, but I felt like the interrupts were sometimes coded for either paragon or renegade when they could and should have been neutral. Throwing a merc out the window? Why is that renegade? If I hadn't done it I'd (I assume) have to gun him down after the conversation. Either way, he's dead. I was just more efficient by pushing him. Same with the guy who was working on the gunship. Either way I'm killing mercs and eventually shooting down that ship. All the renegade option did was take him out early. It's not like he was going to walk out of there anyhow.
I think they were looking at it from whether or not they had a fighting chance. You know the whole honorable fight angle. Did they have the time to pull out their weapon or did you shoot them in the back without giving them a chance? Not that they really had a chance against Shepard and his squad but anyways...
Now that the Ogre's sad -_- face had been pointed out I can't see anything else in that screenshot. That's probably a good thing though. I'm thinking that the look has less to do with his friend lying on the floor bleeding out and more about the fact that the shots were released in this state though. Overall the gameinformer article was pretty good and I'm not too worried. It's Bioware and they've trained me well over the years.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited July 2010
So, I just read the GI article for it. Was very good.
I'd prefer for there not to be paragon/renegade points at all.
Well, it's their attempt at creating a lasting impression and a reputation for your character. NPCs are supposed to react differently to you etc based on your previous actions. It would be interesting if it were done behind the scenes but people like seeing it so they know what to change or how much more they need to be nice or be a dick.
From what I understand the dumb part is you only get a "good" ending if you go all the way paragon or all the way renegade, and a half-assed one if you are anywhere in between, encouraging you to always go one way or the other fully. That's stupid.
I'd prefer for there not to be paragon/renegade points at all.
Well, it's their attempt at creating a lasting impression and a reputation for your character. NPCs are supposed to react differently to you etc based on your previous actions. It would be interesting if it were done behind the scenes but people like seeing it so they know what to change or how much more they need to be nice or be a dick.
From what I understand the dumb part is you only get a "good" ending if you go all the way paragon or all the way renegade, and a half-assed one if you are anywhere in between, encouraging you to always go one way or the other fully. That's stupid.
That's not accurate.
You only get the half-assed ending if your choice on the last decision is in conflict with your Paragon/Renegade status.
Hence why I said "from what i understand". I haven't played either Mass Effect. So what happens if you alternate your paragon/renegade choices and are therefore somewhere in the middle of the scale by the time this "last choice" rolls around. is the "last choice" binary?
My fantasy dialog system would actually use 2 "sections." The first section would be what you say, whether its a short couple of words like ME or full sentences like DA. The second section would be your emotion behind what you say, so that would would have things like Sarcastic, Joking, Angry, Annoyed, etc. Sure it would be stupidly complicated, but then you would always be able to set exactly how you wanted to sound and what you say.
This would be awesome, but logistics get in the way. With at least two inflections for every line, every conversation becomes a labyrinthine mess of possible responses. I don't know how they could correctly give you full-voice companions like that.
Which is why all these people whining about needing everything voiced, especially the protagonist, are holding the genre back. And this is where I'd lament the death of developers with "single A ambitions" as even companies like Obsidian and Cd Projekt are reaching for AAA rather than designing more appropriately sized games
Yeah, it's really the art style, not the graphics themselves that's really concerning. I mean, DAO looked pretty good
Well Dwarf Fortress is easily in my top 5 most played games (that aren't MMOs), so if the game is playable darwinia units I'd be happy as long as the dialogue and story are good
I'd prefer for there not to be paragon/renegade points at all.
Well, it's their attempt at creating a lasting impression and a reputation for your character. NPCs are supposed to react differently to you etc based on your previous actions. It would be interesting if it were done behind the scenes but people like seeing it so they know what to change or how much more they need to be nice or be a dick.
From what I understand the dumb part is you only get a "good" ending if you go all the way paragon or all the way renegade, and a half-assed one if you are anywhere in between, encouraging you to always go one way or the other fully. That's stupid.
That's not accurate.
You only get the half-assed ending if your choice on the last decision is in conflict with your Paragon/Renegade status.
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To be fair, Dragon Age is about 3000 hours long. it takes a while to finish it.
LoL: failboattootoot
The main problem with the dialog in the ME games is occasionally getting dialog that doesn't match the abbreviated text you select at all. It's a problem with writing though, not the system.
At least AP realized that, and made it explicitly clear that what the selection said wasn't actually important, and just had you choose directly from 3 archetypes + facedesk
Ah, facedesk.
Always the appropriate choice every single time.
I remember having more problems in DA, often selecting a response that I assumed was joking or sarcastic, only to have the NPC respond as though I'd spat in their face. ME2 had surprises too, but the ones I remember were mostly pleasant, like "Go to hell" becoming "I'll relinquish a single bullet. Where do you want it?"
This was particularly annoying with Alister, who is always making jokes. You try to make a joke, he flips out.
I feel like the best of both worlds is some combination of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and Alpha Protocol.
So for most dialog, it'd be a ME-style short responses- only the *intent* of the message is summarized in one word a la Alpha Protocol.
Be like, Do you need help? [kind] Figure it out for yourself [Callous], etc.
But for particularly important "what can change the nature of a man" conversations, you have DA/BG2/PST style actual line-for-line text dialog to choose from.
My fantasy dialog system would actually use 2 "sections." The first section would be what you say, whether its a short couple of words like ME or full sentences like DA. The second section would be your emotion behind what you say, so that would would have things like Sarcastic, Joking, Angry, Annoyed, etc. Sure it would be stupidly complicated, but then you would always be able to set exactly how you wanted to sound and what you say.
This would be awesome, but logistics get in the way. With at least two inflections for every line, every conversation becomes a labyrinthine mess of possible responses. I don't know how they could correctly give you full-voice companions like that.
I actually like the "paragraph of shit" aspect, and find choosing a response that best matches what I want to say (or just the funniest option) to be a lot more fun than good/neutral/evil sans flavor. Hell, mostly it was never even a choice because I was trying so hard to accumulate paragon points that I just clicked "good" every time. (At least ME2, when the actual dialog didn't match what you expected, sometimes erred on the side of awesome. ME1 was just boring most of the time.)
DA was a shock and backwards step in the dialog department. It reminds me of how the PC in Fable never had a voice and your character just looked like a dummy whenever the camera was on them. At least in KoTOR your PC would make hilarious smirking faces.
In reality it's really no differant than seeing the full block of text and choosing it. It's still a set of 3-5 choices that are predetermined that you really have no say over.
And If your character says exactly what you choose than what's the point of the voiceover and acting? understand that the character isn't you it's Shepard and your watching/playing his story. You can decide to be nice or a dick but ultimatly it's a story about him.
3DS FC: 5086-1134-6451
Shiny Code: 3837
DA2's gonna be the tits.
Yeah, and I have almost no emotional connection to my Shepard at all, whereas I'm extremely fond of my DA:O character whose every nuance of conversation style has been (the illusion of) my choice.
Mostly I didn't like ME's dialog because it was a very small amount of invariably boring choices (that mostly just boiled down to clicking "polite" every time to get paragon points) that then turned into even more boring spoken sentences (more a fault of ME1 than 2), whereas the DA system had a ton of variety.
I'm not hating on mass effect - I loved both games - but I'll be sad to see the "paragraph of text" system go, as I find it to be very fun - if not more fun - for the above reasons.
THERE I SAID IT
if you just picked the top right every time that could explain why it lacked flavor for you
Anyway, ME2 was a lot better, I didn't have many complaints, but I still miss the variety.
For me, the idea that ME conversations can flow was kind of a bust because I still sat around forever trying to decide which option to take at the more interesting junctures.
EDIT: But yes, the paragon option is usually a little more bland but it is in most games. There are a couple of times you get to do the right thing and tell the bad guy he's wrong you'll kick his ass.
3DS FC: 5086-1134-6451
Shiny Code: 3837
Yeah same. I can't remember if Fallout had a karma system, but what I remember loving about it is it felt like it didn't.
Well, it's their attempt at creating a lasting impression and a reputation for your character. NPCs are supposed to react differently to you etc based on your previous actions. It would be interesting if it were done behind the scenes but people like seeing it so they know what to change or how much more they need to be nice or be a dick.
3DS FC: 5086-1134-6451
Shiny Code: 3837
I too would approve of this. Just lemme be more persuasive by putting points in and we're good.
XBL: Torn Hoodie
@hoodiethirteen
This so hard. If it's an achievement, a bonus to a stat, a chance for an item or just to see a bar fill I will go balls to wall Blue/Red instead of just going with the dialog option I would've chosen normally. It hasn't been all that detrimental to my enjoyment of the games, but I think the ride would've been alot more nuanced.
Then they should do a faction system. It would make more sense and actually allow for some hard choices in who to piss off and not piss off.
If you play again, there are enough points available in ME2 that you can max one bar and get the other (I think) about halfway full. So you don't have to skip that renegade interrupt because you want to max your charm instead of intimidate.
Yeah, I've been alittle less adamant about it in my second play-through. Hasn't stopped the nagging feeling that I'm playing the system rather then the character though. I rationalize it away with "Well, this Shepard really is a jackass and or saint", still would've prefered it without the system though, it adds nothing to the fun of the game.
Fears eased?
I think they were looking at it from whether or not they had a fighting chance. You know the whole honorable fight angle. Did they have the time to pull out their weapon or did you shoot them in the back without giving them a chance? Not that they really had a chance against Shepard and his squad but anyways...
Now that the Ogre's sad -_- face had been pointed out I can't see anything else in that screenshot. That's probably a good thing though. I'm thinking that the look has less to do with his friend lying on the floor bleeding out and more about the fact that the shots were released in this state though. Overall the gameinformer article was pretty good and I'm not too worried. It's Bioware and they've trained me well over the years.
From what I understand the dumb part is you only get a "good" ending if you go all the way paragon or all the way renegade, and a half-assed one if you are anywhere in between, encouraging you to always go one way or the other fully. That's stupid.
That's not accurate.
You only get the half-assed ending if your choice on the last decision is in conflict with your Paragon/Renegade status.
Which is why all these people whining about needing everything voiced, especially the protagonist, are holding the genre back. And this is where I'd lament the death of developers with "single A ambitions" as even companies like Obsidian and Cd Projekt are reaching for AAA rather than designing more appropriately sized games
So basically have wizards dressed like Harry Dresden?
I can totally go for that
Well Dwarf Fortress is easily in my top 5 most played games (that aren't MMOs), so if the game is playable darwinia units I'd be happy as long as the dialogue and story are good
this is also not accurate
there is no half-assed ending