You do realize that 40k is nothing but a mish mash of various borrowed sci-fi cliches, right?
So to answer your question; no, it's not weird to have no interest in something that fascinated you 13 odd years ago, but your reasons for not having interest aren't the best. If your pc can run it you might want to give any demo released a shot.
You have actually seen 40k and Starcraft, right? The designs are stupidly similar. I know Blizzard can't just up and throw away the designs they used, but cripes, it's still a pretty huge ripoff. 40k might be a mishmash, but Starcraft was pretty blatantly unoriginal.
Also, the RTS stuff itself holds no appeal to me. If there was anything to get me interested, it would be a continuation of the original story. And since all I can see now is 40k plagiarism, well, there goes that. Detesting the source material for Starcraft as a blatant copy is a totally legit reason to kill enthusiasm for the game.
I'll wait until the third campaign is on the horizon before thinking about buying any of SC2. By then the custom map community will be very mature and I won't have to get cliffhanger'd twice on the story.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited July 2010
Ugh, I still remember the awful cliffhanger ending of the original. I doubt Blizzard will make the same mistake again, but it was so awful I remembered it despite having not played in something like 8 years.
and so forth. The Tau are alien space commies, so I'll give them one decently original idea.
The plot is vaguely similar in that the interconnected hive mind sealed away for the preservation of all other life in the universe is basically standard sci fi plot number three, behind those used in Star Wars and Star Trek.
To be fair, both universes having space marines isn't unexpected. Both universes having genetically modified space marines in power armor firing bolters is a little harder to defend.
SPESH MUHRINES in 40k are modified humans that fire bolters.
SPESH MUHRINES in Starcraft are conscripts that fire gauss rifles.
I'm just not getting Starcraft 2 cause it's gonna be $180 for it and the expansions. And the map file size limits. And the pseudo lag. And I'm terrible at it.
I also have no idea why Comic Con became a fake videogame event about 3-4 years ago. My guess is that it is the natural progression from being a fake tv/movie event of 6-7 years ago.
PAX is also really, really small right now.
I'm not saying that Europe doesn't need a big event or that this one isn't slowly becoming one, I'm just saying that the announcements so far have been less then spectacular. I'd put GDC above it and that's another lame event to announce stuff at.
As far as announcements go, what was even announced at GDC this year? Move, Move games, Socom 4, Rock Band 3 and... Was there anything else eventful? Those might be a bit better than GamesCom's last year but I wouldn't really judge public events (like GamesCom, ComicCon and PAX) on their announcements but their attendance.
And yeah, I hate how the media have tried to turn GDC into something it's not. Every time a games 'journalist' talks about a packed panel they were at at GDC, I think of the actual developers that couldn't fit in there because the fucking 'journalists' are wasting space in there.
Ninja Snarl P: Nah, they'd just come up with another excuse to not turn up. Otherwise, what's stopping them from showing all their other games there this year?
It prevents them from importing from pretty much any retailer except for things like eBay. Those few thousand copies that might make it in might as well be worthless to Capcom.
How so? Reading what you posted a bit better, there's nothing stopping Germans from importing from the UK or Austria.
To be fair, both universes having space marines isn't unexpected. Both universes having genetically modified space marines in power armor firing bolters is a little harder to defend.
Nearly identical power armor to 40k. Then the ravenous, unstoppable horde of genetically-flexible monsters trying to scour the galaxy of all organic matter not its own. Then the ancient, fading race of alien warriors with "magic" and race telepathy and which just happens to crew its war machines using its dead warriors. Not to mention the universal state of constant, unending, futile, war in both properties.
Also, Dune and Starship Troopers being directly responsible for the 40k Space Marines? That's really, really stretching it. Fanatical religious zealots are as old as religion. I suppose Iron Man is a ripoff of Heinlein as well since it has power armor? And the Tyranid were never "sealed away", they ate other entire galaxies and have moved on to this one.
Far, far more importantly, 180 bucks for Starcraft II plus the expansion? That's hyperbole, right? Because that's pretty extreme for a single game. I enjoy teh Haloz as much the next guy, but putting a price tag of 180 bucks on it and some expansion packs for it would get nothing out of me but a laugh. And I even enjoy all the Halo-related fiction.
Ninja Snarl P: Nah, they'd just come up with another excuse to not turn up. Otherwise, what's stopping them from showing all their other games there this year?
I dunno, just trying to think of something. Capcom is pretty Japanese; based on the writing for pretty much every game they make, who knows what the hell their real reason is? Maybe they're just deathly afraid of sauerkraut and bratwurst?
Eh, for most people Halo 2 and 3 were nothing but expansion packs anyways...:P Those three only cost 160 dollars though.
Anyways, if you don't see the connections between the god emperor of dune and the one from 40k well then, I suggest an eye examination.
Since you're on a borrowing from 40k kick anyways where do you think Blizzard got the idea of dragging out the SP mode over a few games while adding new stuff to the MP. That's right, the recent 40k RTS games! Conspiracy!
To be fair, both universes having space marines isn't unexpected. Both universes having genetically modified space marines in power armor firing bolters is a little harder to defend.
Nearly identical power armor to 40k. Then the ravenous, unstoppable horde of genetically-flexible monsters trying to scour the galaxy of all organic matter not its own. Then the ancient, fading race of alien warriors with "magic" and race telepathy and which just happens to crew its war machines using its dead warriors. Not to mention the universal state of constant, unending, futile, war in both properties.
Also, Dune and Starship Troopers being directly responsible for the 40k Space Marines? That's really, really stretching it. Fanatical religious zealots are as old as religion. I suppose Iron Man is a ripoff of Heinlein as well since it has power armor? And the Tyranid were never "sealed away", they ate other entire galaxies and have moved on to this one.
Far, far more importantly, 180 bucks for Starcraft II plus the expansion? That's hyperbole, right? Because that's pretty extreme for a single game. I enjoy teh Haloz as much the next guy, but putting a price tag of 180 bucks on it and some expansion packs for it would get nothing out of me but a laugh. And I even enjoy all the Halo-related fiction.
Ninja Snarl P: Nah, they'd just come up with another excuse to not turn up. Otherwise, what's stopping them from showing all their other games there this year?
I dunno, just trying to think of something. Capcom is pretty Japanese; based on the writing for pretty much every game they make, who knows what the hell their real reason is? Maybe they're just deathly afraid of sauerkraut and bratwurst?
Starcraft II is $60 confirmed and its expansions are rumored to be full price as well.
The campaigns are planned as concentrated, epic storylines, with enough content to justify a full release. As a result, the games will now feature more in-game cinematics and story content.
When I first saw the Starcraft II trailer, I totally thought it was for some new 40k game.
Like, if the original game had been made now, they would probably have gotten sued.
No, it really wouldn't.
Starcraft came out in 1997. This isn't exactly in the dark ages of videogames or lawsuits. There really isn't any case as 40k and Starcraft are generic as hell.
Oh shit, guys in powered space armor! Never been done before! Constant Warfare in the stars between humans, more humans, vaguely humanoid ancient aliens, and smarter then they look bugs! Ooh the originality!
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YggiDeeThe World Ends With You ShillRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
I'd always heard that Starcraft was supposed to be a 40k game, but got changed partway through. I may have been lied to, though.
Eh... I get it. I just don't care that much. What I like is that the speech is so over the top in response to Gabe's total ignorance.
Anyway, Warhammer Online was essentially bound to its fate. If they majority of online players are playing WoW, then no matter how good the source might be, essentially saying 'me too!' in the marketplace is definitely not going to be enough.
I enjoy that Tycho can get really wordy, but I think it's typically better left to the newspost and commentaries on his older comics in the collected volumes
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
I love Blizzard. I love Relic. I've been quite intrigued by everything I've seen of Warhammer 40K, and I would give anything to play a few rounds of Battlefleet Gothic.
But everything, EVERYTHING I've ever seen about 40k indicates a static universe. The time scales used, the nature of the warfare, the scale of the galaxy... It all seems designed to create a perpetual environment of warfare where the forces are balanced. This isn't to say, mind you, that battles aren't won and lines aren't moved. Far from it. But in the scope of the universe, looking from the outside, the effects of one event won't change the fortunes of war. And in my mind, things are like that entirely so that you can back a faction and not feel like they are going to disappear out from under your feet.
... Which is important when you are selling little plastic minis that cost $50-60 for a box.
With Starcraft.. well, there was MOVEMENT. The Protoss are nearly fucking dead. The Zerg have a woman scorned ruling them. We've seen a change of government, and maybe a shadow empire pulling the strings if they acknowledge the plot of Brood War. And through all this, we've seen the personal fights. Starcraft was the story of Tassadar, Raynor, and Kerrigan. And by the looks of it, we're about to see Raynor, Pt. 2.
I don't give a fuck about APM. I appreciate balance, but it's not why I fell in love with Starcraft. I fell in love with Starcraft for a reason most people don't give Blizzard enough credit for: They know how to tell a story. They can take the most generic tripe known to man and make it compelling, and make characters you invest in. That alone is why I am lining up Monday night.
There will always be Zerg, space marines, and Protoss as long as there is enough money to be made to justify a sequel. Always. Every game universe that relies on perpetual conflict ends up having none of them ever actually winning. They only appear to be winning until there is some new hope that allows others to appear to be winning. There is an occasional change in talking heads but none of those talking heads ever make any permanent gains that matter outside fluff. It is like the war in 1984 except they occasionally add more participants in the form of some extremely powerful new enemy that is never actually that powerful except in fluff. The reason is obviously because the developers love money.
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
I'm sure that Games' Workshop top brass has to be deeply annoyed pretty much every day at Blizzard.
WoW helping to knock WAR down a notch didn't help I'm sure.
One of the original creaters of 40k (not games workshop, just helped design 40k) now works at Blizzard as a Creative Director. Andy fucking Chambers.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited July 2010
Starcraft is just as static as 40k, it just seems less static because it only deals with a handful of people instead of massive armies spread across the face of a planet. Also in 40k, the heroes and villains don't matter much because everyone gets killed in the end. Kinda like Starcraft where the game ended with nobody (except maybe Kerrigan) ended up with anything more than they started with (unless the people were killed and then they definitely had less).
I don't hold it against anybody if they enjoy everything which goes with Starcraft, but even with my brief exposure to the 40k tabletop it's glaringly obvious that most of what Starcraft entails, including the terminally grim environment with futile efforts of heroic individuals, is taken from 40k.
And now that the Warhammer stuff has grown so much, I think there's a definite possibility that the similarities could end up affecting sales. Kids who were 5 when Starcraft came out have had plenty of time to completely miss the original Starcraft, get the Warhammer exposure, and then look at Starcraft and think it's a ripoff even if the Starcraft games prove to be far superior to every game which Games Workshop has authorized the development of (the answer would be yes, the Starcraft games are better).
To be fair, both universes having space marines isn't unexpected. Both universes having genetically modified space marines in power armor firing bolters is a little harder to defend.
Starcraft doesn't have genetically modified space marines. Their marines are (mostly) convicts and other degenerates who are brainwashed into soldiers.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Not to belabor the point, but Starcraft has 1 point of reference for its plot development, with a second coming out in 3-4 days. Even expanding that to the published work or Ghost and things like that, you still have a very small sample size for the world's state. Warhammer 40K's had at least 20 years of continuously produced product.
I can't remember, did Starship Troopers have the goal posts being moved in any significant way? I know the movie ended with the discovery of the Brain Bugs and their capture, but I just can't remember how the book ended. And that work has had more influence on the concept of power armor than anything outside of Japanese production.
Not to belabor the point, but Starcraft has 1 point of reference for its plot development, with a second coming out in 3-4 days. Even expanding that to the published work or Ghost and things like that, you still have a very small sample size for the world's state. Warhammer 40K's had at least 20 years of continuously produced product.
Well, two points if you count the expansion as separate. However, I wouldn't dismiss the written body of work from the past ten years. It's not terribly large compared to Warhammer, but it's significant enough that'd take you awhile to get through.
We have, officially,
Software: The original game (3 campaigns), the expansion (3 more campaigns), 3 misc campaigns (Precurser, Enslavers, Enslavers: Dark Vengence), a couple of tie-in maps of the week.
Books: 11 novels, 7 volumes of graphic novels, and six short stories.
Starcraft is just as static as 40k, it just seems less static because it only deals with a handful of people instead of massive armies spread across the face of a planet. Also in 40k, the heroes and villains don't matter much because everyone gets killed in the end. Kinda like Starcraft where the game ended with nobody (except maybe Kerrigan) ended up with anything more than they started with (unless the people were killed and then they definitely had less).
That Starcraft has a story focused on a relatively small number of characters is not an insignificant difference from 40k, unless my understanding of it is way off. And "static"? How is one (1) game and one (1) expansion about one (1) war "static"? This is not a universe of unending war. Heck, before the invasion the Terrans had no idea the Zerg and Protoss even existed. Sure, Blizzard could keep making sequels til the end of time, but they are not pumping out a new one every November. It's been over a decade.
Mengsk definitely ended up with more than he started with. He began the game as the leader of a rag tag group of rebels and then toppled the Confederacy and declared himself super king big nuts. Raynor going from a marshal on a backwater colony to leading his own army is a clear upward move, even if he can barely afford to feed them.
:whistle:
And, hey, how bout that Kinect. Is Microsoft crazy, or is Microsoft crazy?
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And "static"? How is one (1) game and one (1) expansion about one (1) war "static"? This is not a universe of unending war.
So, when the war ends, will the next Starcraft be a space trucking sim? That sounds rad.
Nope, everyone has an uneasy truce with only minor skirmishes breaking out.
Meanwhile, the critter populations will skyrocket and require minor characters everywhere to offer shitty junk and minor amounts of cash to young adventurers, who are taking their first step on the path of destiny...
I don't care about Starcraft 2 because my tastes in rts' have shifted over the years. I hate that kind of frantic micro-heavy gameplay nowadays. I prefer more serene stuff that focuses on strategy and higher-level planning, not just apm.
I have to take issue with this statement. It shows a very poor understanding of the game and a very common misconception. Micro only makes a difference at very high levels of play. Like top 5% of players. Other than that if you haven't got down the mechanics and having the memory to do all that stuff like building armies and managing your economy you are going to get steamrolled no matter how fast you can click.
Also APM rises naturally over time as you get better at remembering to do everything on time and tightening up your build orders, so there's no barrier there at all.
alset85 on
override said: I can't wait until Toady causes pressurized water to be able to actually damage things. I want to hit goblins with a shit cannon of such pressure that the meat is ripped from their bones
Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know the intricacies of the game because I don't play it. But it seems to me, at least comparing it to stuff like Total War, that it's much more about speed and micro. Say two players are doing everything equally as well up until the point they first meet. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like 100% of the outcome of that battle comes down to who can micro better.
Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know the intricacies of the game because I don't play it. But it seems to me, at least comparing it to stuff like Total War, that it's much more about speed and micro. Say two players are doing everything equally as well up until the point they first meet. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like 100% of the outcome of that battle comes down to who can micro better.
There is speed but memory helps you a lot more. It's more about discipline. And close fights like what you are saying are very rare but ofcourse who has better control wins. But there's a long way to go for any new player to get to that situation, and better army composition or positioning still triumphs.
Only the highest of tiers do the flashy stuff like insane micro, and those have the most visibility because are the most watchable. No commentator says: "Oooooohhh look at that kickass unit building right when he had the resources for it"
alset85 on
override said: I can't wait until Toady causes pressurized water to be able to actually damage things. I want to hit goblins with a shit cannon of such pressure that the meat is ripped from their bones
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You have actually seen 40k and Starcraft, right? The designs are stupidly similar. I know Blizzard can't just up and throw away the designs they used, but cripes, it's still a pretty huge ripoff. 40k might be a mishmash, but Starcraft was pretty blatantly unoriginal.
Also, the RTS stuff itself holds no appeal to me. If there was anything to get me interested, it would be a continuation of the original story. And since all I can see now is 40k plagiarism, well, there goes that. Detesting the source material for Starcraft as a blatant copy is a totally legit reason to kill enthusiasm for the game.
Tyranid: Starship Troopers.
Orcs: Tolkien.
Eldar: Tolkien.
and so forth. The Tau are alien space commies, so I'll give them one decently original idea.
The plot is vaguely similar in that the interconnected hive mind sealed away for the preservation of all other life in the universe is basically standard sci fi plot number three, behind those used in Star Wars and Star Trek.
SPESH MUHRINES in Starcraft are conscripts that fire gauss rifles.
I'm just not getting Starcraft 2 cause it's gonna be $180 for it and the expansions. And the map file size limits. And the pseudo lag. And I'm terrible at it.
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As far as announcements go, what was even announced at GDC this year? Move, Move games, Socom 4, Rock Band 3 and... Was there anything else eventful? Those might be a bit better than GamesCom's last year but I wouldn't really judge public events (like GamesCom, ComicCon and PAX) on their announcements but their attendance.
And yeah, I hate how the media have tried to turn GDC into something it's not. Every time a games 'journalist' talks about a packed panel they were at at GDC, I think of the actual developers that couldn't fit in there because the fucking 'journalists' are wasting space in there.
Ninja Snarl P: Nah, they'd just come up with another excuse to not turn up. Otherwise, what's stopping them from showing all their other games there this year?
How so? Reading what you posted a bit better, there's nothing stopping Germans from importing from the UK or Austria.
Nearly identical power armor to 40k. Then the ravenous, unstoppable horde of genetically-flexible monsters trying to scour the galaxy of all organic matter not its own. Then the ancient, fading race of alien warriors with "magic" and race telepathy and which just happens to crew its war machines using its dead warriors. Not to mention the universal state of constant, unending, futile, war in both properties.
Also, Dune and Starship Troopers being directly responsible for the 40k Space Marines? That's really, really stretching it. Fanatical religious zealots are as old as religion. I suppose Iron Man is a ripoff of Heinlein as well since it has power armor? And the Tyranid were never "sealed away", they ate other entire galaxies and have moved on to this one.
Far, far more importantly, 180 bucks for Starcraft II plus the expansion? That's hyperbole, right? Because that's pretty extreme for a single game. I enjoy teh Haloz as much the next guy, but putting a price tag of 180 bucks on it and some expansion packs for it would get nothing out of me but a laugh. And I even enjoy all the Halo-related fiction.
Anyways, if you don't see the connections between the god emperor of dune and the one from 40k well then, I suggest an eye examination.
Since you're on a borrowing from 40k kick anyways where do you think Blizzard got the idea of dragging out the SP mode over a few games while adding new stuff to the MP. That's right, the recent 40k RTS games! Conspiracy!
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Like, if the original game had been made now, they would probably have gotten sued.
No, it really wouldn't.
Starcraft came out in 1997. This isn't exactly in the dark ages of videogames or lawsuits. There really isn't any case as 40k and Starcraft are generic as hell.
Oh shit, guys in powered space armor! Never been done before! Constant Warfare in the stars between humans, more humans, vaguely humanoid ancient aliens, and smarter then they look bugs! Ooh the originality!
Starcraft was at one point Warcraft 2 in Spaaaace.
WoW helping to knock WAR down a notch didn't help I'm sure.
A notch?
But having a WoW expansion launch in close proximity to it certainly didn't help.
This one is, without a doubt, in the top 3.
Anyway, Warhammer Online was essentially bound to its fate. If they majority of online players are playing WoW, then no matter how good the source might be, essentially saying 'me too!' in the marketplace is definitely not going to be enough.
I enjoy that Tycho can get really wordy, but I think it's typically better left to the newspost and commentaries on his older comics in the collected volumes
But everything, EVERYTHING I've ever seen about 40k indicates a static universe. The time scales used, the nature of the warfare, the scale of the galaxy... It all seems designed to create a perpetual environment of warfare where the forces are balanced. This isn't to say, mind you, that battles aren't won and lines aren't moved. Far from it. But in the scope of the universe, looking from the outside, the effects of one event won't change the fortunes of war. And in my mind, things are like that entirely so that you can back a faction and not feel like they are going to disappear out from under your feet.
... Which is important when you are selling little plastic minis that cost $50-60 for a box.
With Starcraft.. well, there was MOVEMENT. The Protoss are nearly fucking dead. The Zerg have a woman scorned ruling them. We've seen a change of government, and maybe a shadow empire pulling the strings if they acknowledge the plot of Brood War. And through all this, we've seen the personal fights. Starcraft was the story of Tassadar, Raynor, and Kerrigan. And by the looks of it, we're about to see Raynor, Pt. 2.
I don't give a fuck about APM. I appreciate balance, but it's not why I fell in love with Starcraft. I fell in love with Starcraft for a reason most people don't give Blizzard enough credit for: They know how to tell a story. They can take the most generic tripe known to man and make it compelling, and make characters you invest in. That alone is why I am lining up Monday night.
One of the original creaters of 40k (not games workshop, just helped design 40k) now works at Blizzard as a Creative Director. Andy fucking Chambers.
I don't hold it against anybody if they enjoy everything which goes with Starcraft, but even with my brief exposure to the 40k tabletop it's glaringly obvious that most of what Starcraft entails, including the terminally grim environment with futile efforts of heroic individuals, is taken from 40k.
And now that the Warhammer stuff has grown so much, I think there's a definite possibility that the similarities could end up affecting sales. Kids who were 5 when Starcraft came out have had plenty of time to completely miss the original Starcraft, get the Warhammer exposure, and then look at Starcraft and think it's a ripoff even if the Starcraft games prove to be far superior to every game which Games Workshop has authorized the development of (the answer would be yes, the Starcraft games are better).
Starcraft doesn't have genetically modified space marines. Their marines are (mostly) convicts and other degenerates who are brainwashed into soldiers.
I can't remember, did Starship Troopers have the goal posts being moved in any significant way? I know the movie ended with the discovery of the Brain Bugs and their capture, but I just can't remember how the book ended. And that work has had more influence on the concept of power armor than anything outside of Japanese production.
Well, two points if you count the expansion as separate. However, I wouldn't dismiss the written body of work from the past ten years. It's not terribly large compared to Warhammer, but it's significant enough that'd take you awhile to get through.
We have, officially,
Software: The original game (3 campaigns), the expansion (3 more campaigns), 3 misc campaigns (Precurser, Enslavers, Enslavers: Dark Vengence), a couple of tie-in maps of the week.
Books: 11 novels, 7 volumes of graphic novels, and six short stories.
That Starcraft has a story focused on a relatively small number of characters is not an insignificant difference from 40k, unless my understanding of it is way off. And "static"? How is one (1) game and one (1) expansion about one (1) war "static"? This is not a universe of unending war. Heck, before the invasion the Terrans had no idea the Zerg and Protoss even existed. Sure, Blizzard could keep making sequels til the end of time, but they are not pumping out a new one every November. It's been over a decade.
Mengsk definitely ended up with more than he started with. He began the game as the leader of a rag tag group of rebels and then toppled the Confederacy and declared himself super king big nuts. Raynor going from a marshal on a backwater colony to leading his own army is a clear upward move, even if he can barely afford to feed them.
:whistle:
And, hey, how bout that Kinect. Is Microsoft crazy, or is Microsoft crazy?
So, when the war ends, will the next Starcraft be a space trucking sim? That'd be rad.
Nope, everyone has an uneasy truce with only minor skirmishes breaking out.
Meanwhile, the critter populations will skyrocket and require minor characters everywhere to offer shitty junk and minor amounts of cash to young adventurers, who are taking their first step on the path of destiny...
I have to take issue with this statement. It shows a very poor understanding of the game and a very common misconception. Micro only makes a difference at very high levels of play. Like top 5% of players. Other than that if you haven't got down the mechanics and having the memory to do all that stuff like building armies and managing your economy you are going to get steamrolled no matter how fast you can click.
Also APM rises naturally over time as you get better at remembering to do everything on time and tightening up your build orders, so there's no barrier there at all.
Steam ID
I don't know, I'm getting it for the SP anyway
There is speed but memory helps you a lot more. It's more about discipline. And close fights like what you are saying are very rare but ofcourse who has better control wins. But there's a long way to go for any new player to get to that situation, and better army composition or positioning still triumphs.
Only the highest of tiers do the flashy stuff like insane micro, and those have the most visibility because are the most watchable. No commentator says: "Oooooohhh look at that kickass unit building right when he had the resources for it"
Steam ID
Oh my dear lord, this is fantastic.