Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
You guys make it sound like they're going to put him under a spot light and make him sweat out every detail about his medical condition.
Most place have a HR department filter out applications, and usually by the time they're ready to interview you it is an %80 chance they're going to hire you. I'm willing wager that they wont even bring up your past work history.
If you really want to know what sort of reference Wal Mart is going to give you, have a friend pretend to be a manager for something and call them up.
definitely never ever do that
Question: what is bad about this?
It's unethical?
Well there is that.
Practically speaking it's purposefully deceiving someone about a material fact which could influence their decision to enter into a business arrangement with you for your own benefit and to their detriment. (you get paid and they don't get a worker that has never been fired for gross misconduct, which could have been the deciding factor between you and another potential employee)
That's called "fraud" and it's Bad. If it was found out, it would give your new employer cause to fire you (and they likely will, as they'll never believe your side of the story about what happened at WalMart after you pull a stunt like this), and even worse, it could give them an affirmative defense if they harm you in some way by violating labor or employment law and you want to get a remedy.
And having a former employer say you were "terminated for fraudulent reporting on an employment application" is way fucking harder to explain than a former employer saying you were "terminated for gross misconduct," especially given the nature of this "misconduct."
You may also be asking your friend to commit a criminal offense depending on where you are.
If you really want to know what sort of reference Wal Mart is going to give you, have a friend pretend to be a manager for something and call them up.
definitely never ever do that
Question: what is bad about this?
It's unethical?
Well there is that.
Practically speaking it's purposefully deceiving someone about a material fact which could influence their decision to enter into a business arrangement with you for your own benefit and to their detriment. (you get paid and they don't get a worker that has never been fired for gross misconduct, which could have been the deciding factor between you and another potential employee)
That's called "fraud" and it's Bad. If it was found out, it would give your new employer cause to fire you (and they likely will, as they'll never believe your side of the story about what happened at WalMart after you pull a stunt like this), and even worse, it could give them an affirmative defense if they harm you in some way by violating labor or employment law and you want to get a remedy.
And having a former employer say you were "terminated for fraudulent reporting on an employment application" is way fucking harder to explain than a former employer saying you were "terminated for gross misconduct," especially given the nature of this "misconduct."
You may also be asking your friend to commit a criminal offense depending on where you are.
Seriously. Don't Do This.
I don't think he was suggesting that he should have a friend pretend to be an old manager. I think he was only suggesting that he should find out what his previous employer is saying to complete strangers behind his back.
That isn't fraud and won't go on your permanent record.
I don't think he was suggesting that he should have a friend pretend to be an old manager. I think he was only suggesting that he should find out what his previous employer is saying to complete strangers behind his back.
That isn't fraud and won't go on your permanent record.
The scenario I'm envisioning is that post being fired from walmart, you call up walmart and say "Hey I'm Jim Bob from Jim Bob's tire depot and I've got an applicant here name of Timmy Smith, and he listed you as a reference?"
and seeing what their response is.. that doesn't really sound like a real problem to me, is there something that I'm missin?
I would almost go so far as to say that's a decent idea if you're legitimately concerned.
I'd be shocked if walmart didn't have a global policy that required the person taking that call to confirm length of employment and nothing else, though.
Pheezer on
IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
If you really want to know what sort of reference Wal Mart is going to give you, have a friend pretend to be a manager for something and call them up.
definitely never ever do that
Question: what is bad about this?
It's unethical?
Well there is that.
Practically speaking it's purposefully deceiving someone about a material fact which could influence their decision to enter into a business arrangement with you for your own benefit and to their detriment. (you get paid and they don't get a worker that has never been fired for gross misconduct, which could have been the deciding factor between you and another potential employee)
That's called "fraud" and it's Bad. If it was found out, it would give your new employer cause to fire you (and they likely will, as they'll never believe your side of the story about what happened at WalMart after you pull a stunt like this), and even worse, it could give them an affirmative defense if they harm you in some way by violating labor or employment law and you want to get a remedy.
And having a former employer say you were "terminated for fraudulent reporting on an employment application" is way fucking harder to explain than a former employer saying you were "terminated for gross misconduct," especially given the nature of this "misconduct."
You may also be asking your friend to commit a criminal offense depending on where you are.
Seriously. Don't Do This.
It's pretty clear that you didn't read SmokeStack's post all that closely but just skimmed over it and assumed you knew what he was saying.
Druhim buddy, you got some points for that wings thread but you're dogpiling here and that's not some kind of erotic slang nor is it really necessary so let's all stop ragging on the slow kid. I'm sure if he's read any of the replies since then he knows he made a mistake.
Pheezer on
IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
I would almost go so far as to say that's a decent idea if you're legitimately concerned.
I still think it's unethical to impersonate someone (even a made up someone) even if you're just trying to cover your friend's ass.
Besides, if I ever learned anything from Seinfeld, it's that karma is a bitch. One day, you're going to bust your face running from the john with your pants around your ankles screaming, "Vandelay Industries!"
I'd be shocked if walmart didn't have a global policy that required the person taking that call to confirm length of employment and nothing else, though.
Most multinational corporations have that as their policy. Too many countries have too many different data privacy laws for you to do otherwise.
Walmart may be a little more in-tune (given that they're a retailer) with local laws than some orgs, but I imagine that's more on the side of what they can pinch you on and the documentation required rather than what they say about people who have already been pinched.
I would almost go so far as to say that's a decent idea if you're legitimately concerned.
I still think it's unethical to impersonate someone (even a made up someone) even if you're just trying to cover your friend's ass.
Besides, if I ever learned anything from Seinfeld, it's that karma is a bitch. One day, you're going to bust your face running from the john with your pants around your ankles screaming, "Vandelay Industries!"
Do you not get it?
No one is pretending to be the manager at walmart.
They're calling walmart to find out what kind of reference walmart will give.
The only reason subterfuge is necessary is because he probably can't expect to get a straight answer by just calling up and asking directly what they'll say. To claim that this is a breach of ethics sets the bar for ethical behaviour somewhat unreasonably out of touch with reality. At some point you have to consider the actual consequences of an action as a mitigating or aggravating factor, and the complete and utter lack of even the possibility of negative consequences to any party here should probably play a role in whether or not this is an "okay" thing to do.
If you're just posting to say "you shouldn't do that because lying is bad", well. I can't agree that you're actually providing reasonable advice.
Pheezer on
IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
what if you were fired for going to work at walmart in california drunk? and it was labled gross misconduct...would you lie and say it was for somthing else??
Posts
Most place have a HR department filter out applications, and usually by the time they're ready to interview you it is an %80 chance they're going to hire you. I'm willing wager that they wont even bring up your past work history.
It's unethical?
Well there is that.
Practically speaking it's purposefully deceiving someone about a material fact which could influence their decision to enter into a business arrangement with you for your own benefit and to their detriment. (you get paid and they don't get a worker that has never been fired for gross misconduct, which could have been the deciding factor between you and another potential employee)
That's called "fraud" and it's Bad. If it was found out, it would give your new employer cause to fire you (and they likely will, as they'll never believe your side of the story about what happened at WalMart after you pull a stunt like this), and even worse, it could give them an affirmative defense if they harm you in some way by violating labor or employment law and you want to get a remedy.
And having a former employer say you were "terminated for fraudulent reporting on an employment application" is way fucking harder to explain than a former employer saying you were "terminated for gross misconduct," especially given the nature of this "misconduct."
You may also be asking your friend to commit a criminal offense depending on where you are.
Seriously. Don't Do This.
I don't think he was suggesting that he should have a friend pretend to be an old manager. I think he was only suggesting that he should find out what his previous employer is saying to complete strangers behind his back.
That isn't fraud and won't go on your permanent record.
Ding ding ding. Monroe kind of missed the point.
and seeing what their response is.. that doesn't really sound like a real problem to me, is there something that I'm missin?
I'd be shocked if walmart didn't have a global policy that required the person taking that call to confirm length of employment and nothing else, though.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
It's pretty clear that you didn't read SmokeStack's post all that closely but just skimmed over it and assumed you knew what he was saying.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Besides, if I ever learned anything from Seinfeld, it's that karma is a bitch. One day, you're going to bust your face running from the john with your pants around your ankles screaming, "Vandelay Industries!"
Most multinational corporations have that as their policy. Too many countries have too many different data privacy laws for you to do otherwise.
Walmart may be a little more in-tune (given that they're a retailer) with local laws than some orgs, but I imagine that's more on the side of what they can pinch you on and the documentation required rather than what they say about people who have already been pinched.
Do you not get it?
No one is pretending to be the manager at walmart.
They're calling walmart to find out what kind of reference walmart will give.
The only reason subterfuge is necessary is because he probably can't expect to get a straight answer by just calling up and asking directly what they'll say. To claim that this is a breach of ethics sets the bar for ethical behaviour somewhat unreasonably out of touch with reality. At some point you have to consider the actual consequences of an action as a mitigating or aggravating factor, and the complete and utter lack of even the possibility of negative consequences to any party here should probably play a role in whether or not this is an "okay" thing to do.
If you're just posting to say "you shouldn't do that because lying is bad", well. I can't agree that you're actually providing reasonable advice.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH