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Street Fighter 4 idea

NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in ActionStill AwesomeRegistered User regular
edited May 2007 in Games and Technology
No this isn't an open forum post to Capcom or anything but rather how well an idea could be accepted.

I'm having this discussion in class about how 2d fighting games haven't changed much (I'm not going to bring up the Vs. series or Guilty Gear. Don't think many of my classmates know what the later is anyway) and why there isn't a Street Fighter 4.

The reason is cost. Even if they did use an older board it would require a lot of man-hours to draw up new character sprites for just about every character. This is the reason that most companies choose 3d as it is easier and cheaper to just render polygons over hand drawn animations.

This gave me an idea. What if Capcom just rendered the characters and made it 2d (kinda like Smash Brothers)? I just got a look at VF5 today and was amazed at the level of detail (Akira's hands actually looked bruised at the end of the round). Would it be dismissed since it is 3d and not a "True" SF game? Or would it be embraced or just "meh"?

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Posts

  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited May 2007
    Uh... since when have up to date graphics been the defining and selling point of a fighting game?

  • wunderbarwunderbar Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    If it can get me a true Street Fighter 4, then I'm all for it.

    So may good memories of Street Fighter........

  • BigDesBigDes Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    It's worth noting that Capcom have HDasized the sprites for Street Fighter II. So it's not like they aren't open to it. However seeing a new Street Fighter ever again is pretty much wishful thinking I think.

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  • BedlamBedlam Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Most 3d fighters move like 2d anyway and very rarelly take the 3rd demension into account (save for maybe a roll or dodge button) so I dont see how someone could dismiss a fighter because it wasnt 3d.

    SF4 could be interesting but I would rather see a new IP with a simpler move system (think Smash bros or the Naruto games) and online but Im sure alot of people would get a nostalgia kick (and then bitch about how everything is different)

  • Original RufusOriginal Rufus Registered User
    edited May 2007
    There's footage of the new Simpson's game that looks strikingly 2 Dimensional.

    I'm sure a big development house like Capcom could pretty easily write an engine to elegantly handle cel-shading well enough to faithfully recreate the traditional anime look of Street Fighter.

    But yeah, I'd still prefer HD sprites with lots and lots of animation.

  • mystic_knightmystic_knight Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Cel-shading could make a nice looking, almost 2d Street Fighter. But Capcom has lost most of its 2D fighter making talent, so SF4 may be a big disappointment if it ever is made.

  • Original RufusOriginal Rufus Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Cel-shading could make a nice looking, almost 2d Street Fighter. But Capcom has lost most of its 2D fighter making talent, so SF4 may be a big disappointment if it ever is made.

    Do you mean that figuratively, or do they literally no longer employ the same people responsible for the glory days?

  • Robo BeatRobo Beat Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Uh... since when have up to date graphics been the defining and selling point of a fighting game?

    QFT. With any fighting game, really, the key is to have a sufficiently complex and well-balanced fighting engine. Graphics are nice, but the engine is the key.

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  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Why make "Street Fighter 4" when they haven't made "Street fighter 3: Turbo Mega Championship Ultra edition - the 2nd round, Special edition" yet?

  • DelzhandDelzhand motivated battle programmerRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    There's footage of the new Simpson's game that looks strikingly 2 Dimensional.

    I'm sure a big development house like Capcom could pretty easily write an engine to elegantly handle cel-shading well enough to faithfully recreate the traditional anime look of Street Fighter.

    But yeah, I'd still prefer HD sprites with lots and lots of animation.

    Hell, it might even work Odin Sphere style with huge jointed sprites.

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  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Nocren wrote: »
    This gave me an idea. What if Capcom just rendered the characters and made it 2d (kinda like Smash Brothers)? I just got a look at VF5 today and was amazed at the level of detail (Akira's hands actually looked bruised at the end of the round). Would it be dismissed since it is 3d and not a "True" SF game? Or would it be embraced or just "meh"?

    This is basically what Street Fighter EX is, though. And it's shit.

    All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action Still AwesomeRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I thought that EX tried to be a 3d game though?

    Also we game make textures purrty now.

  • mystic_knightmystic_knight Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Cel-shading could make a nice looking, almost 2d Street Fighter. But Capcom has lost most of its 2D fighter making talent, so SF4 may be a big disappointment if it ever is made.

    Do you mean that figuratively, or do they literally no longer employ the same people responsible for the glory days?
    I'm fairly certain that most of the people that worked on Street Fighter no longer work at Capcom, though I do not have any links to back it up.

  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action Still AwesomeRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm pretty sure the majority of the original art team no is longer there (I THINK maybe they moved to Sammy but I'm not sure either). Not sure about the programmers or anyone higher up though.

  • DirtchamberDirtchamber Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Cherrn wrote: »
    Nocren wrote: »
    This gave me an idea. What if Capcom just rendered the characters and made it 2d (kinda like Smash Brothers)? I just got a look at VF5 today and was amazed at the level of detail (Akira's hands actually looked bruised at the end of the round). Would it be dismissed since it is 3d and not a "True" SF game? Or would it be embraced or just "meh"?

    This is basically what Street Fighter EX is, though. And it's shit.

    To be fair, though, EX was made by Arika - not Capcom.

    At any rate, the main reason Capcom doesn't make SFIV has nothing to do with the cost of animating sprites. The fact is that they don't have to make SFIV while they can simply keep recycling their old SF games at a profit. You watch - if the HD version of Super Turbo does well on Xbox Live, the next SF title Capcom announces will be Alpha HD. And then Alpha 2 HD. And then Alpha 3 HD. And so on and so forth for all eternity.

  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Nocren wrote: »
    I thought that EX tried to be a 3d game though?

    Also we game make textures purrty now.

    It had side-stepping, but that was it. Played more like a 2D fighter than anything else.

    And yeah, Capcom didn't make it. But they're worthless at making fighters now. Look at their last few "efforts".

    All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
  • ReynoldsReynolds Superwoman Punch! Wrestlemania LXIIIRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm glad someone brought up EX. But I really liked it, and still bust it out every once in a while. I mean, Cracker Jack...? C'mon people, loosen up and have some fun. :P

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  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Capcom's better 2D fighting developers left shortly after Marvel Vs Capcom 2, and joined up with some ex-SNK developers who left when the company was having trouble. Most of the better of these people are part of Arc and have since developed the Guilty Gear series.



    So yes, with Capcom lacking any good 2D fighting developers, a SF 4 would be the greatest disappointment ever, especially considering SFIII is still widely considered to be one of if not the best 2D fighting game ever.


    Cost is also an issue. With 2D fighters having become a small niche in the market nowadays, it's hard to justify spending a lot of money on handdrawn art for a game that almost won't sell well. It would have to do well in arcades first -- in Japan, of course, since NA's arcade 'market' is almost nonexistant these days - and then it would have to be brought to a console or two. Which, though; well, probably the PS2 and Wii if it was to be retail, since the cost of publishing for the 360/PS3 would be much higher, and the market is much smaller on these systems compared to the PS2+Wii. Alternatively, it would have to be released at a likely budget-y price on Live/PSN/WiiShop, but that hasn't really happened as of yet for a brand new 2D fighter. So who knows. GGXX Accent Core is coming to the Wii (classic con support) and probably the PS2 pretty soon.


    Just as a factoid, I believe it was a Capcom developer who said that it costs 3 times as much to make a new 2D fighter as it does to make a good new 3D fighter.




    Now, iirc, I think one developer is making a cell shaded 2D fighter and trying to make it look pseudo hand drawn. I remember seeing screens and it looks good, but I have yet to see it in motion. I cannot remember the name of it unfortunatley.. but I think Arc may be the ones doing it. It's not a major series, some kind of new IP.

    So I think a 3D "2d fighter" or cel shaded game could work.. but we haven't seen one in the traditional style of a 2D fighter yet.



    Also, it's a shame there aren't any good 3D fighters that closely follow 2D fighter gameplay, that are good games that is. At least, new IP type games instead of 3d versions of 2d franchises. I like Soul Calibur, but I'll never place it as high on my list as Street Fighter Alpha 3, Guilty Gear XX, or King of Fighters. And I can't much stand Tekken, VF, or Doa.

  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    slash000 wrote: »
    Now, iirc, I think one developer is making a cell shaded 2D fighter and trying to make it look pseudo hand drawn. I remember seeing screens and it looks good, but I have yet to see it in motion. I cannot remember the name of it unfortunatley.. but I think Arc may be the ones doing it. It's not a major series, some kind of new IP.

    Battle Fantasia by Arc. Graphics are absolutely stunning, but the game doesn't look that great.

    All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Wow, yeah, that's the game. It looks (graphically) even better than I remembered it.


    Also, I read that SNK is redrawing all of their sprites in higher resolution for the next KOF.

  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Yeah, that's what the reports say.

    Also, UDON are redrawing all the SF 2 sprites in high-resolution for an upcoming "remake" of Street Fighter 2 for Live and whatever-the-PS3-equivalent-is-called. The sprites they released look great, but they aren't adding new frames in order to preserve the core gameplay, so who knows what it'll look like in motion.

    All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
  • Dublo7Dublo7 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Street Fighter 4 should be 2d. No ifs ands or buts.
    I can't say I've been impressed with any 3D fighter I've played. I just don't like them.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited May 2007
    Cherrn wrote: »
    slash000 wrote: »
    Now, iirc, I think one developer is making a cell shaded 2D fighter and trying to make it look pseudo hand drawn. I remember seeing screens and it looks good, but I have yet to see it in motion. I cannot remember the name of it unfortunatley.. but I think Arc may be the ones doing it. It's not a major series, some kind of new IP.

    Battle Fantasia by Arc. Graphics are absolutely stunning, but the game doesn't look that great.

    Seriously... doesn't even look that much better than Arcana Heart.

  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Dublo7 wrote: »
    Street Fighter 4 should be 2d. No ifs ands or buts.
    I can't say I've been impressed with any 3D fighter I've played. I just don't like them.


    The only reason I picked up Soul Calibur 2 in the first place is because it was "the big thing" that everyone played, both on consoles and in the arcades, at the time. If I wanted a fighting game I could play with someone, it pretty much had to be that. I feel like I had to work to get to the point that I could enjoy SC2, but eventually I came around, and it's really the only 3D fighting game that I can stand. Even then, i can only really be competent with 1 character, Ivy.


    I love KOF:Max.Impt, but that hardly counts as a 3D fighter. Fortunately.

  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Wouldn't Street Fighter 4 sell really well to the same people who buy Dead or Alive, Virtua Fighter and Tekken?

    Despite its age, the game still has a huge following, and people would buy it as a direct to console adaptation.

  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Rolo wrote: »
    Wouldn't Street Fighter 4 sell really well to the same people who buy Dead or Alive, Virtua Fighter and Tekken?

    Despite its age, the game still has a huge following, and people would buy it as a direct to console adaptation.


    The people who buy Dead or Alive (and Mortal Kombat) are different than the people who buy Tekken and Virtua Fighter, and they're all different than the people who would probably be interested in Street Fighter 4.

    When I say "different" i mean that they are looking for different things in their fighting games.



    The people that would most be interested in SF4 would probably be 2D fighting fans and fans of SF3. that would be my guess. On top of that, maybe a few people would be interested in it for nostalgic reasons.. but I really think it boils down to 2D fighting fans and Street Fighter fans. The "huge following" of SFIII is really just the niche hardcore fighting audience. It's not actually huge, it's just huge for a game that's been out for so incredibly long.



    I mean, love SF and its iterations, but I can't much stand tekken or VF or DOA. And likewise, I know a lot of people who love the 3D fighters and their "awesome graphics" that probably wouldn't be at all interested in the "tired, 2D Street Fighter games."

  • Kevin CristKevin Crist I know you love me I am loving you more.Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The people who buy Dead or Alive (and Mortal Kombat) are different than the people who buy Tekken and Virtua Fighter, and they're all different than the people who would probably be interested in Street Fighter 4.

    When I say "different" i mean that they are looking for different things in their fighting games.

    I like Street Fighter, Tekken, Dead or Aalive and Virtua Fighter all the same. I like fighting games because I'm interested in martial arts and playing against other people. I appreciate the ways the various titles are different from one another so I don't too bored with one series' style.

    I'm weird.

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  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    You're not weird, it's just not as common that a person just loves all the different types of fighting games. But if you were to take a certain group of people out of all the people that buy fighting games, I believe it would be unlikely that the group that buys DOA games and Tekken games would be interested in a new Street Fighter game.


    I've given Tekken and DOA and VF all a fair chance and I just can't get into them and I just don't enjoy them. At least I like Soul Calibur, even if it's not as much as KOF or Guilty Gear.




    It would be more likely that the group of people looking to buy a new street fighter would be the people buying the Guilty Gear games, King of Fighters games, the SF Anthologies, and stuff like that.

  • Dublo7Dublo7 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm still super happy that Udon are drawing the sprites for the upcoming SF release. Man, that is going to be incredible.

    However, when it gets released, I'm still going to be cursing that horrid 360 d-pad...

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Dublo7 wrote: »
    I'm still super happy that Udon are drawing the sprites for the upcoming SF release. Man, that is going to be incredible.

    However, when it gets released, I'm still going to be cursing that horrid 360 d-pad...

    Does the down button on everyones D-Pad suck as much as mine?

  • Dublo7Dublo7 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Dublo7 wrote: »
    I'm still super happy that Udon are drawing the sprites for the upcoming SF release. Man, that is going to be incredible.

    However, when it gets released, I'm still going to be cursing that horrid 360 d-pad...

    Does the down button on everyones D-Pad suck as much as mine?

    No. Mine sucks more.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Why do they not want to make sf4 anyway? I don't see why, I mean the latest sf is still used in most major fighting game competitions such as Evo and SBO and such. SF still has a huge following.
    Why do they not follow up on this? Can someone explain? I feel uncomfortable with the idea that a company is denying themselves money, it's as if someone turned off gravity.

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  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action Still AwesomeRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Thanks for the great input Slash. When I said that the capcom guys left for sammy, I ment that they went to go work on the GG series. I didn't know th actual creators (arc).

    Also, when I proposed that SF4 be "3d" I ment in same vain as SSB or the above mentioned cell-shaded games since art was (one of) the major cost factors. But again, slash brought up interesting points on the markets.

    PS, I am a fan of all 3d fighting games but I only play VF as it is the least cheap in my opinion (by fan I mean watch and enjoy to some extent). No final uberboss with higher priority, speed, and damage then you just someone that has a deeper understanding of thier character then you do of yours.

    PPS: It's probably a good thing that they didn't change the animations for SF2HD. Wasn't frame counting invented for that game?

  • DirtchamberDirtchamber Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Why do they not want to make sf4 anyway? I don't see why, I mean the latest sf is still used in most major fighting game competitions such as Evo and SBO and such. SF still has a huge following.
    Why do they not follow up on this?

    A variety of reasons, most of which Slash mentioned above. Basically, it just comes down to an unfavourable cost/benefit ratio: 2D fighters are fairly expensive to make, and aren't popular enough to guarantee big returns. The "huge following" for Third Strike et al. is, as Slash mentioned, really just a fanatical minority - and they're already happy with what they have. Even if Capcom did make an SFIV, there's no guarantee that the hardcore would accept it.

    Outside of collaborative, not-for-profit projects like Mugen, the 2D fighter genre is pretty much doomed to stagnation for the time being.

  • mystic_knightmystic_knight Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Why do they not want to make sf4 anyway? I don't see why, I mean the latest sf is still used in most major fighting game competitions such as Evo and SBO and such. SF still has a huge following.
    Why do they not follow up on this?

    A variety of reasons, most of which Slash mentioned above. Basically, it just comes down to an unfavourable cost/benefit ratio: 2D fighters are fairly expensive to make, and aren't popular enough to guarantee big returns. The "huge following" for Third Strike et al. is, as Slash mentioned, really just a fanatical minority - and they're already happy with what they have. Even if Capcom did make an SFIV, there's no guarantee that the hardcore would accept it.

    Outside of collaborative, not-for-profit projects like Mugen, the 2D fighter genre is pretty much doomed to stagnation for the time being.
    I wouldn't say stagnation. It has slowed down a fair bit, but Japan is still coming out with some really great 2D fighters. They usually just aren't making it here. The only thing we really see anymore is the Guilty Gear series. Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, and a few other 2D fighters are great fun, but they just aren't showing up outside of Japan.

    And let's not forget SNK and the King of Fighters series, along with SNK's other great 2D properties.

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    They could put some life back in to the series if they catered more towards the multi player on line crowd.

    Fighting games are nice but they're no good for solo play. If they were to create a system for some massive on line matches then they could really get a lot of new players interested.

    Think Mugen size character selection with a massive on line tournament complete with four-six player tag team matches and brawls.

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  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action Still AwesomeRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Yeah, but we all know that the problem with online is lag, which is random and hard to factor in. MK supposedly "fixed" this with their dial-a-combo system but would that work with Street Fighter? Probably not.

    Well, that and assholes dropping from the match when they're losing.

  • DirtchamberDirtchamber Registered User
    edited May 2007
    And let's not forget SNK and the King of Fighters series, along with SNK's other great 2D properties.

    I'm not sure if SNK is doing much to push the genre forward these days. Save for a few minor tweaks and different rosters, King of Fighters has remained pretty much untouched for a few years now. Even Maximum Impact is effectively the same as the 2D versions. Admittedly, I've never been fond of the KOF games, so I'm probably being a little bit unfair - but still: they're hardly shaking things up to any great extent.

  • Dodge AspenDodge Aspen Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I really want a version of Street Fighter III for Wii. This new SFII version would be sweet, too. The only time I feel burned by my decision to go with Wii is when it comes to fighting games. Smash Bros. will be great, but it's not the same. I wish I could afford to go Wii60.

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  • FreddyDFreddyD Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Wasn't the Marvel vs. Capcom series even more popular than SFIII? Rival Schools/Project Justice felt like a 3d version of that game, and I don't know why that series never really took off here.

    I think we have finally reached the point where 3D graphics on the home consoles can have as much detail as hand drawn 2D and Capcom would be wise to take advantage of this opportunity.

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