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The degradation of online discourse: What can we do about it?
Spawnbroker
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
You've all been there. You're playing Halo on Xbox Live, and some 12 year old calls someone who killed him the N-word. Did you call him out on it? Did you sit there silently, wondering who else would say something? After that comment, did the game degrade into trolling and bitching instead of being something you were playing for fun?
To give a personal anecdote, I was recently kicked from a League of Legends team. One of my team members called an enemy player a derogatory term usually reserved for middle eastern people. I called him out on it, saying that's not cool and I really don't think language like that is appropriate under any context. After the game, the team leader pulled me into a separate channel and stated I would not be allowed to play on their team any longer. In a situation such as this, where there are definite negative consequences for standing up for your beliefs, what should you do? What if you were working, and your boss said something offensive? Do you stand up for it then?
Here is a snippet from an article from Gamer Road decrying racism in this context:
What can the gaming community do about increasing racism and homophobia? Should companies take an active role in ferreting out offenders and banning them? Should they use word filtering software that prevents certain words from being used? Or is this the way the internet is and we should just accept it?
Let's also take this a step further. Is it okay for offensive language to be used in a joking context? Are you, by using the word jokingly, "taking it back"? Is it okay to joke about things like that, even if the person on the receiving end might take offense?
To give a personal anecdote, I was recently kicked from a League of Legends team. One of my team members called an enemy player a derogatory term usually reserved for middle eastern people. I called him out on it, saying that's not cool and I really don't think language like that is appropriate under any context. After the game, the team leader pulled me into a separate channel and stated I would not be allowed to play on their team any longer. In a situation such as this, where there are definite negative consequences for standing up for your beliefs, what should you do? What if you were working, and your boss said something offensive? Do you stand up for it then?
Here is a snippet from an article from Gamer Road decrying racism in this context:
Gamer Road wrote:There’s a trend in online gaming when user communication enters the mix. It’s not new, by any means, but has gone on long enough: the flamboyant use of derogatory names being thrown about as carelessly as a backpack when a kid gets home from school.
It’s such a common nightly occurrence on games like Modern Warfare or Halo that it’s quickly actually passing as acceptable behavior. A game ends, and the insults start to fly. At first it’s about cheating or how someone spent the whole match camping in one spot. Soon, though, it tends to quickly escalate to offensive names.
What can the gaming community do about increasing racism and homophobia? Should companies take an active role in ferreting out offenders and banning them? Should they use word filtering software that prevents certain words from being used? Or is this the way the internet is and we should just accept it?
Let's also take this a step further. Is it okay for offensive language to be used in a joking context? Are you, by using the word jokingly, "taking it back"? Is it okay to joke about things like that, even if the person on the receiving end might take offense?
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As far as jokes having offensive language, that's dependent entirely on context. My friends and I make off color jokes about each other all the time when no one's around. It's accepted in our small circle, but we'd never do the same in public or with someone we don't really know lest we offend them.
As far as name-calling and trash talk go, twerpy little kids don't consider the other people online with them real people. They're self-involved little sociopaths that have no real concept of the consequences of their actions, especially with regard to how their actions might make other people feel. Their brains just don't work that way yet.
I've got fond memories of Diablo II on B.net. I have not so fond memories of the usage of "Jew" in ways that seemed incomprehensible to me, even at 11 years old. All the people I played with, all complete strangers, and none of us found these types of things appropriate, no matter our ages. It was still rampant, and I bet it still is.
I don't think its getting worse, though. Its just that there are more gamers, more people playing games, gaming is more popular, more everything. I'd bet that the ratio of bigotry and childish slurs to normal and proper speech, is no greater now than it was then. The whole "internet fuckwhad" thing isn't exactly a new phenomenon, now is it?
Regardless, its completely unacceptable. I haven't played online much since those days, so I've had the good fortune of avoiding bigotry in gaming.
edit: Also I dont think because someone calls you a "jewfag" on the internet means they are homophobic or racist. They just throw the words around because its what they think has the most zing to it.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Or if you just go to a decently sized party with a wide mix of people. Throw in some alcohol, drugs, you get some pretty crazy stuff being said. Call people on it if you want, sometimes happens, sometimes doesn't. But trying to enforce your own notion of political correctness on a bunch of people just trying to have fun is usually difficult at best, and is itself often considered more rude than the offensive language in the first place.
I mostly don't care about this sort of thing. I don't care if I hear someone using the "N-word" at a party. It depends totally on context for one thing. Also, there are simply no terms that I find personally offensive in every situation. I don't care if someone uses the word "fuck". If someone comes up to my face and says to me "fuck you", well, now we have context and things are different. I don't much care if I hear the "N-word", but I would care more if I heard someone say "blacks are all criminals". The former is simply a word, and can be used in any context. In the latter the vocabulary isn't offensive, but the context is. Its also a political statement, one that invites debate, so I would comment on that.
Also, I'll point out that I consider it a degradation of online discourse that I cannot use the "N-word" here. We may be discussing it and other words such a context that makes its use totally relevant. But nope, its naughty, and its a no-no. A childish sentiment in my mind, not like its going to change. Online, I consider improper punctuation and capitalization errors way worse than racism/homophobia/whatever.
This is largely how I feel.
If someone throws around f-bombs, it's more on them than anyone else. Also if you're in certain circles you're not doing it right unless you're swearing.
Even thing like the "n word" (I censor myself because I am a guest here and that is the rule) have a place in discourse. It has value because it can't be said.
I like humanities ugliness. If the worst thing that happens is someone has a disgusting opinion, I'm ok with that. If we censor people with disgusting opinions I will be worried.
Look upon the black heart of the human race and despair!
Who has said it is?
Fuck being a word that has an endless supply of uses, from verb to noun to adjective, I'd say that makes it a pretty bad comparison for censorship/word use against slurs with singular purposes. Fuck has use outside of being an insult. I'm pretty well incapable of stifling my use of fuck when speaking because its just so versatile, and nobody takes offense. I imagine they would should I direct fuck at them.
I mean, I guess you could just replace words at will, and find yourself using the n-word for every other word, but it'd be strange?
Context was established, anyways, for this discussion. Its about people using loaded terms with the intent for them to be offensive. The terms aren't being used for intellectual discussion. Michael Richards proved fairly well that sinking to this level, just because you're mad, isn't really a decent response to the irritant.
these people need to learn how to handle losing, not have a different vocabulary
The person using the words probably isn't all squeaky clean in their beliefs. I get pissy when people say certain things, but its more because I'm pissy that they believe in the notions that come with the usage of the words.
Mel Gibson blaming Jews doesn't just show me he was angry at the officers or using the N-word shows me he's just angry at his wife, it shows me that he's an incredible bigot. If one doesn't want to be thought of as a bigot, perhaps using those types of words/sayings in an intentionally offensive manner isn't good?
Its been a couple great years for public/celebrity racism, huh? Why do we need movies when we can just get this stuff for free?
Edit: Its also made a bit more weird by the online thing. People don't think of other people as people online. Which is so weird then having bigotry come into it, because it makes me think that the people using these terms, don't think of the people those terms are meant for, are real people.
Of course, growing up, racism was a pretty closed and shut case. It was bad. As a kid, I was pretty guilty of using faggot and gay. I'm 20 now, and watching people my age still use these terms is bizarre as all hell.
The answer as people who play games ourselves is to call people on it when you see it and form communities where it isn't acceptable. I pretty regularly call people out when I hear them use slurs over voicechat in various games, and it gets a positive response from others far more often than the reverse.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Mmmm, no, I think it is all in the context. The word fuck has been brought up already, how it is offensive (theoretically) yet widely used. Interesting, no? Words have a history. Now, some of this has to do with [the 3rd sentence of the post above]. But, the use and meaning of words changes over time. Calling things gay as a generic insult for example. This is a fairly recent development. Does it "dehumanize" gay people? I think dehumanize is a pretty funny word to use here, but lets say it does. Is it as offensive now as it used to be? Because its more widely used now does that mean gays are dehumanized even more than in the past? Or maybe because now the word is probably used more often when referring to something other than actual gay people (example: that movie is totally gay. has nothing to do with homosexuals except that the word is used in a negative context, oh, there's that word again).
Let us take another word, idiot. Pretty generic insult, pretty light. Everyone uses it. Yet, this word has been used as a technical term for people with IQs of less than 30. Is everyone that uses the word idiot dehumanizing people with IQs less than 30? Well maybe, although almost nobody even knows that about the word. More recently "mentally retarded" became the more politically correct term, and "retard" was duly adopted as an insult. I'm not sure what the current accepted term is, "special needs" or something like that, and that will likely be adopted as an insult as well, which I find pretty darn funny.
I'm tempted, but I'm not going to say you can use these words and be totally free of the baggage associated with it. I'd just be playing devils advocate there; I don't believe that for a second. I do find it very irritating though how focused people are on simple vocabulary, devoid of context. Do I think I can use the "N-word" ironically? Of course I can. I almost never do, I'm not sure if I ever have. More often I would use it as a quotation, another example where blind censorship of a word does more harm than good. Hell, I think a lot of this thinking weakens the term racism and the ideas behind it. Racism becomes somebody who uses naughty words, instead of overarching views they hold and may not even be aware of. I see this in people I know; viewing these situations totally superficially because that's what people get called out and confronted about most of the time. Trying to manipulate the use of language in others is a very tricky business, and when done on large scales (as is so easy nowadays) you can get some curious, and not always intended results. If we woke up tomorrow and nobody used the "N-word" ever again is that a blow against racism? Or would people merely find different words to express what they think and feel?
Which is exactly why I mind my own tongue, not those of others.
It isn't vocabulary devoid of context. It isn't "hey don't use that word because the sound isn't pleasing to the ear." It's "don't use that word because it reinforces negative stereotypes."
Is it offensive to use the word gay as a general synonym for lame? Yeah, it is, and anyone who thinks that it's use in that context isn't still tied to it's meaning WRT sexual orientation is fooling themselves.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Yeah, we live in a pretty homophobic culture. I'm not certain the people ignoring the context are those saying those words shouldn't be used.
Anecdotal example, I go to college. This is a good and open environment. Yet still, I spent my entire summer forced to deal with someone that would constantly call any guy he had a problem with "faggot". He wasn't just being insulting, he was honestly weirded out and seemingly disgusted by anything gay. He did not hold gay people in high esteem. He would recoil from a simple pat on the back, and it wasn't because he was shy. Of course he was pro-lesbian, though, because that shit is totally hot, amirite?
That mindset seems common enough to warrant some issue when an adult is using slurs. People using slurs that aren't long accepted, such as idiot, often have an honest issue with the group the slur was intended for.
Or is it because you realize that there are negative consequences of using language like that, even if you don't individually intend to inflict them? The goal isn't to "manipulate" language in the service of some nefarious social goal, it's to get people to stop propagating oppressive cultural attitudes.
People get called out on language because it's the most obvious thing people do that, again, reinforces these negative stereotypes, not because it's the only thing we ever care if they get called out on.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I agree with your overall point
but that might not have been the best choice of words
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I actually thought that too. Perhaps I should have mentioned it.
Nah man, gay means happy, cant you see? Its just reversing the meaning of a word, from happiness to lameness! Its so clever isnt it!
Seriously though, I will admit I am guilty of using the word "gay" to mean lame quite often. I don't consider myself a homophobe at all though, and I even voted no on Prop 8, or prop H8 as I like to call it. I think I just use the word because I am waaay more exposed to it meaning lame than I am exposed to it meaning "homosexual." Like in my mind when someone calls me gay, or says something is gay, the first thing I think of is "thats lame" not "thats homosexual." I mean I realize intellectually there is a connection, but at this point it seems tenuous at best.
I mean, why do we say "that sucks"? I am sure that had some original meaning somewhere, but I only know it to mean that is unfortunate, etc.
edit: I just looked it up and apparently it is tied to oral sex, go figure. But I feel this just further proves my point, since who is ever offended by that sucks?
This almost exactly mirrors my position. The problem is, when you call people out on using this language, they are not likely to change. They're more likely to demonize you and kick you out of the group. The most popular response I get when I call people out for using these words online? "I have plenty of black friends!"
I just...don't know what to say to people who think it's okay because I HAVE A BLACK FRIEND GUYS.
I can deal with jokes involving race
but when race IS the joke, it pisses me off a little
I think you misunderstand how language works. Words become detached from their original meanings, this is always happening, and is happening online as well. See my previous post about "thats gay" and "that sucks" etc. So when some online 12 year old says "You are such a damn N-Word" they literally aren't thinking about black people at all I almost guarantee it. They use that word to mean a larger variety of things, the very meaning of the word in the onling gaming context has changed. It no longer means "black man."
Yes my point is that "thats gay" is starting to become removed from homosexual, its not 100% there yet but it will be, because "thats gay" isn't going away.
Read my response to spawnbroker. When a 12 year old online calls you a "N-word" they aren't really thinking "Oh black people suck, therefore you suck if I call you this word"
There is definitely a huge amount of difference between Chris Rock's standup skit about when it's appropriate to use the n-word and a person calling someone else a 'fucking n-word' online.
One is a funny comment on a word that's generally frowned upon, and another is somebody using that term to describe someone they dislike.
Edit: In response to CasedOut: I don't necessarily believe that is running through a 12 year old's mind when he says the word, but do I believe that him using that word over and over will make him think black people are not as good as he is? YES.
The slavery and oppression of African-Americans though is less then 200 years old, and their socioeconomic status lags behind that of the average Caucasian. Maybe sometime in the distant future (500+ years) when that's a vague and absurd memory, would it be acceptable. Otherwise: don't be a dick.
I am not condoning the use of the word or any offensive word for that matter, because like you said dont be a dick. I am just saying I don't think that on the whole it leads to any actual racism/bigotry. I know this from personal experience. When I was a kid just getting into online gaming I was offensive as possible, using all kinds of awful words. I don't consider myself a racist or a bigot at all now, nor do I think I was then either. I was just a kid trying to be offensive and gain attention. Those words literally didn't have racist meaning to me. And even the word gay now doesnt have offensive meaning to me. I know people get offended by it and since I am a nice enough guy I try to refrain.
Think of it this way, if 95% of the time a 5 year old hears "thats gay" and it is in the "thats lame" context, what meaning do you think he will attach to it? Do you honestly think the connection is being made in his mind to homosexuals? No it isnt. It literally means "thats lame" to that 5 year old, because thats how he hears it used.
Among people you know, in real life or via web communities like this one, you nurture proper discourse and good sportsmanship in games. You can't achieve this in random pub games with random folks, but if enough people start to make it a point to avoid using this among each other, and thusly among strangers in random pub games, it'll start to die off.
Also not making it a point to anyone that does this shit refrains from feeding them. Silently make your complaint to the people running the server or whatever. I've played on my fair share of Counter-Strike servers (shockingly) that ban the fuck out of people who use language like this.
I think if a 5 year old hears "that's gay" in the lame context, and grows up continuing to use it, when he meets his first gay person in his teenage years he's going to associate them with being lame. That's how association works.
I guess he'll have some growing up to do.