...I think we'd have to created Byzantium in order for it to have a capital to sack. Also a Venice (last I checked it was either Zenatan or Sicilian) to get money from.
...I think we might be able to sack Baghdad to pay off our Alexandrian loan sharks.
Operation: Instigate Civil War, King John Style, was a success. We are much reduced, our King died in the fighting and a brave new King (Nicolas, who will also be me, probably my last ruler for the whole thing) will lead us into the 15th Century. We're Emperor of Byzantium, but no longer Western Roman Emperor.
Also coming soon! Maps! We can start arguing on how to divide stuff. Some interesting things have happened.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
A History of the House of Charlemagne by Andre de Bumme
Chapters 28 and 29: The Sixth Crusade and The Second Ducal War (1390 - 1399)
With a nearly three to one advantage and the approval of the various local lords and nobles, Ioannes launched the Sixth Crusade in the Fall of 1390. Zenata had greatly expanded in the Holy Land and controlled most of the territory once controlled by the Persian Empire. They also possessed the coast of Morocco. A small contingent of Frankish soldiers were sent to Morocco while the bulk of the force, some 50,000 men were shipped to Jerusalem proper.
Meanwhile, the Pope was not impressed and stripped Ioannes of the Emperorship he had just granted him a few years prior. Perhaps the Pope suspected Ioannes of aiming to recreate the Roman Empire and displace the Papacy. A cryptic reference to "plans" in Ioannes diaries indicate this may have been a possibility.
The Crusade itself was a rousing success with Ioannes driving the Muslims before him repeatedly. He first offered peace upon the liberation of Damascus, merely asking for the Byzantine crown and Jerusalem itself. At first, the Zenatans fought on and rejected his generous offer.
However, eventually they surrendered to the inevitable, as several other European Kingdoms declared war on them and they needed their territory freed up to fight the Greeks, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and various Spaniards. Jerusalem had been liberated, once again.
Just after the Crusade ended long simmering tensions between the Duchy of Aquitaine and Ioannes came to a head. War broke out. Furious over the rebellion by the Occitan Duke, Ioannes finally stood up for himself and ordered every Ducal title in the Kingdom belonging to a non-Frank to be stripped and returned to him.
Bum's note: Yes, this is gamy, but I was getting desperate.
This demonstration did go over well with Ioannes vassals, many of whom rebelled (there's lots more where this came from). Others were merely threatening rebellion. And still others left peacefully.
Meanwhile, some very odd ducks asked to join the mighty Frankish Empire. However, frustrated with all the foreigners looking to take his power and drive the Kingdom into various foreign wars he refused to get involved in, Ioannes declined all such entreaties. He also accepted white peaces from most of his former vassals in exchange for large amounts of gold. The treasury overflowed, but the kingdom had become significantly smaller and lost nearly all of its overseas possessions.
In the winter of 1398, Ioannes contracted one of the great plagues that had destabilized the country throughout the 14th century. By January of 1399 he was deathly ill and called for his son Nicolas who would be King after him. He told Nicolas he sensed a great new age of exploration and invention and told Nicolas to lead the Frankish people into it. Four days later, he succumbed to the Black Death.
To be continued in... Europa Universalis 3: Gold + Heir to the Throne! Approximate start date: when I get the mod finished, which may take a while.
Maps to come in a little bit.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
First, let's check out our new King, who will be somewhat Francofied in EU3. All hail Nicolas! For stats, thought I'd divide by 2, so: Admin 8, Diplomacy 6, Martial 4
Finland dominates modern day Finland and most of the important parts of Russia. Though Novgorod did win their independence from the mighty pagan Finns. The Duchy of Greater Poland is independent of Poland and controls most of the Baltic States, as you can see. I might just make them the Teutonic Order? The brown blob in the steppes is the Duchy of Brunswick, of all things. Definitely a name change, they'll become something more geographically appropriate. The Kingdom of Bulgaria did an impressive job of expanding, they're the big blue blob on the north coast of the Black Sea. Poland is Poland, pretty mediocre but there. They have territories randomly spread around Europe that I'll probably consolidate and give them some of their broken away vassals instead.
The former Byzantine Empire has split into three parts. Edessa controls most of the Balkans, The Aegean Isles controls Greece proper, and Cibarryhot controls Anatolia. I will probably make them Anatolia or Turkey or something in EU3, just so they can be spelled. They're all Orthodox. On the north coast of the Black Sea we can again see Bulgaria
Zenata dominates the Middle East. There are still some Crusader States that I'll probably make several different countries out of, as they are massively fractured. Also some Muslim minors lying around that I'll consolidate into basically what they were in EU3's normal campaign, probably.
Egypt is still a Christian Kingdom, with most of modern day Egypt except the Delta and Sinai. Importantly, they have Alexandria.
This is west Zenata, which I'll probably split off as its own nation. And call it Morocco.
Iberia is split, though the Kingdom of Aragon made a huge late charge, seizing Castille. Galicia has EU3's Galicia (if you get it released) so they'll begin the game existing. Portugal only has north Portugal, while Leon has SW Iberia. Aragon/Castille has the middle, and the Duchy of Navarra is the thing labeled there. The current Duchy of Aragon will become the Duchy of Foix, for geographic reasons.
Scotland is currently facing rebellion (and losing) from one of their counties, but they've also conquered northern Ireland and crowned themselves King of the whole island. Not sure how to handle the rebels yet. Northumberland is independent and already has a country made for me in EU3, so they'll be independent. Norway has reconquered the area near York, Wales still exists, and England is pretty small. I'll have to make them some new missions?
Orkney owns what should be Norway. Norway is somewhere in Germany with four billion other minors (more on that in a second). Sweden has completely disintegrated, not sure what we should do with it. Denmark is a couple provinces near Hamburg.
There is Germany. There are no united German Duchies. It's a mess. So Germany may look much like the default EU3 Germany, with a much less powerful Bohemia/Austria.
And then there's France. I lost a lot of it, thankfully. Normandy and Brittany are definitely independent. Champagne isn't where it should be strictly, but not a big deal. Aquitaine is the most powerful of them, I might give them a couple more of the Occitan provinces. Bohemia owns the Netherlands, which I skillfully cropped out. The Papacy is down where I labeled them, I might give them a decent sized area to work with. Then there are some more German minors in Germany.
I forgot to take a shot of Italy, but: Duke of Sicily owns Sicily. King of Sicily owns southern Italy (Naples in normal EU3). Italy has various territories in northern/mid Italy, as does Tuscany.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Are you going to make one of the greek states byzantium? Perhaps make the turkish one Trebizond, to at least attempt some kind of historical accuracy?
Spain looks surprisingly coherent for the most part, Leon in particular. Britain and Scandinavia are the only real disaster areas in terms of making coherent countries. Germany is a mess, but thats historically accurate so that works out pretty well.
Trebizond might work, yeah. I have a province viewer thingy that should make this reasonably simple. We'll see if we need to make any new countries. And if we want any new art and good stuff like that.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I'm not one catching up but I strongly agree with Rex. I don't remember if the "lucky" nations setting of 7 is a settable parameter. If it is you can move it up to something remarkably large or otherwise gimp us which would (help) solve both the history and the fairness problem. You can't play these games and _not_ be into the history.
Actually we are more "nation statey" than historical Europe. France came out fairly well and Italy may end up being the New Austria since its fairly well united. England isn't even really that bad off and could plausibly be handled as a single country with a really low centralization score. How are you going to set up the empire?
I'm not sure there would be a HRE in this universe, but I'm not knowledgeable enough about its formation to be 100% certain. Plus it solves the problem of the HRE policies being absurdly broken.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
The Empire has technically existed the whole game. During the game we have had four concurrent emperors and it would be in those emperors best interest to include their domains in the Empire. We also controlled areas that had significant influence in the election (Italy and Lower Germany). It is not reasonable that almost a hundred and fifty years of Frankish Emperors wouldn't expand the beurocratic structure of the Empire into their territories to increase their control. The crown of Italy was part of the Empire (technically) so it seems Italy has gone independent and northern Italy is no longer within the boundaries but the Empire could probably span into northern modern Spain.
Another option is that the Frankish kings "split" the Empire into two kingdoms. Not disputing Germany they halted expansion on the northern border except for those strong princes that joined it willingly (probably during the Ducal War). That these freedoms granted to Frankish princes led to a stronger Noble spirit that led to the Frankish king eventually being stripped of the Imperial crown (so all Ducal territories in France [north east and south west in a long diagonal spear]) are under joint Imperial/French administration which would weaken the King's control in these areas.
So I seem to have caught a nasty virus that may cause me to reformat, fortunately the save is... elsewhere (Rex should have it, for one), but I may be largely unable to do things on my computer for a few days.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Well, it was going to take a little time to convert things anyway. I was hoping Rex would make a map for us and we could maybe start arguing about how to handle some of the areas. I seriously have no idea what to do with Sweden. Make it OPMs? Make Lappland and Sweden?
Then there's Germany...
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
You want maps? I'll give you marvelous maps made manifest!
(This post brought to you by the letter M)
Mappa Mundi
The Political Sphere of the Carolingian World in 1399
One province countries are not capitalized (if you see a lone province with a capitalized name then they have holdings elsewhere). There are many minors in the Middle East and Sweden (I would probably recommend creating Sweden in EU3 with a very low Centralization score).
Byzantium basically split into Epirus, Crete, the Aegean Islands and Bulgaria...who then also inherited a lot of Russian lands. Making the whole area a giant mess. Germany will probably be similar to vanilla EU3, with someone replacing Austria (particularly once overseas possesions are broken into independent (or vassalized) nations).
(despite ebum's concerns about Germany, Russia is likely going to be a huge pain due to the lack of alternative countries to put there.)
Religion in the Carolingian World of 1399
...Apparently I forgot to use the adjective form of Islamic.
I also have the locations of all the bishoprics and archbishoprics in the world, but there aren't really enough to be of note. Heretics, protestants and "undesirable" sects based off historic and in-game results).
The Prospective Extent of the Holy Roman Empire in 1399
Blue consists of areas with German or Italian culture with an Italian ruler, or provinces adjacent to at least 2 such provinces. This is most representative of the initial lands that were part of the Empire in the 11th century (in the 1040s and 1060s areas on Moravia, Bohemia and Hungary were added; later Pommerania and portions of the Baltic coast).
Red consists of areas with Italian culture with non-Italian rulers (often Norman or Occitan). By the beginning of EU3 most of the lands down to the Papal States (which don't exist at Rome for us anymore) remained with the Empire as part of the historic Kingdom of Italy that accompanied the emperor's realm. However, historically these regions also left the empire (including Switzerland). As a defensible merchant Republic, Venice was never adopted into the Empire (although the Kingdom of Sicily currently owns Venice).
Purple encompasses Bohemian culture that didn't comfortably fit within the German-Italian zone (ostensibly this should be included regardless, but it's sort of an unaesthetic finger of the Empire). Bohemian culture is otherwise treated as German culture (i.e. Bohemian culture extends beyond the 2 provinces indicated here).
Green is North Slavic (not Polish) and were gradually adopted into the empire (in some cases before 1066). Historically the Teutonic Knights spend a whole lot of time crusading against pagans in northeast Germany/Poland (into the Baltic States), which is why they're generally German or Polish in later Paradox games.
Grey is Prussian (the Teutonic Knights held this area in our game for a significant portion of time).
Yellow is Dutch, who - depending on the time - were on-again, off-again members of the empire in some cases.
Orange encompasses Frankish culture. Our great ancestors were part of Charlemagne's family that historically fell within the Kingdom of Italy. Whether or not to include our main cultural areas into the empire would have to be a choice we'd have to make (in-game we haven't had too much war-mongering to the East, most of it has been South and overseas).
Burgundy's lands are superimposed on the image. Even counting solely the blue area, some of our provinces would fall within the Empire.
The Prospective World of 1399
If you're wondering what this world might look like in EU3, here's your chance. Keep in mind that we'll likely still have too many independent countries and that far flung possessions would likely work best as allies or vassals (e.g. our possession of Luxemburg or Norway; Scotland's possession of Brandenburg; Poland's possession of Munster in Ireland, etc.).
When in-doubt I tried to trend towards contiguous lands. Papal lands outside of France were rejected in favor of a logical local owner.
Did... did we accidentally end up with Sardinia Piedmonte 300 years early?
Anyway, my take on how to sort out the map:
Seems like we'd be best off splitting off any non-contiguous portions of the large-ish empires. So independent bavaria, Netherlands (perhaps brabant would be better there? Netherlands without Holland seems a bit strange to me). Perhaps make Roma the papal state, since it doesn't seem to make much sense keeping it part of Portugal. The papacy in southern France could be Avignon.
I'm mildly in favour of actually keeping Scotland's Irish holdings intact, as I like the idea of a celtic empire.
A de-centralised Sweden seems the only way to make any sense of Scandinavia. I'm not so sure what to do with the Karelian empire, did anything like that ever actually exist? Has the potential to form a powerhouse Russia if it takes out Novgorod early on.
Given we were the ones with the empire title for much of the later game, it might make sense to include much of France in the HRE, though I'm not really sure how such things worked historically.
I think Bohemia should keep it's possessions in the Netherlands, making it a rough analog to real world Austria, and giving us a powerful neighbour.
Poland should keep Bavaria too, either as a vassal or PU (my favourite). The holding is too prestigious and close enough to be difficult to write off (unlike say Mazovia's two provinces in dirt poor Ireland).
Crete should be renamed Byzantium (as an Imperial successor state having reconquered Constantinople).
Finally, a Scottish Celtic Empire (with a weak England) should make for an interesting Britain.
I'm definitely letting Scotland keep their holdings in Northern Ireland. I was leaning towards Bohemia keeping their possessions in the Netherlands, though I was thinking of making them Brabant with a PU or something. Other potential PUs: Poland + Bavaria as mentioned, Bulgaria + Ukraine/Armenia.
Also, I may split off part of our tail and give it to Aquitane to give us a relatively immediate rival. Valencia will be a vassal state I think. (I was so annoyed they didn't bail) Not sure how to handle Lothringen yet.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
There are quite a few geo-political disparities due to the way duchies work (this is why Pommerania is the largest land owner in Sweden at a mighty two provinces). Counts can't hold out and move overseas because the count title actually applies to that specific position, but a ducal title moves with the owner. So when we steal all of the Alsatian provinces in France the Duke of Alsace gets to move over into Russia with his ducal title.
...and now we have Russian Alsace.
Some recommendations on different areas:
Greece and Russia (primarily held by Cibyrrhaeot, Epirus, Aegean Islands)
Pretty much all that stuff in Russia can be transformed into allied states of obscure Russian city-states and khanates like Qasim, Kazan and Pskov. In some cases these countries may already have adjoining territory in EU3 that's not present in the CK map.
Cibyrrhaeot is a problem to start with (not just because it's un-spellable). Never mind that I have Rhodes listed as Crete because they didn't own Rhodes for a while before. They're probably your best bet for a reborn Byzantium as the controller of Constantinople (as well as holdings on both sides of the Aegean).
There's room for Morea and possibly renaming Athens to support the Aegean Islands conglomeration (or using Naxos, which is an island in the Aegean).
Epirus is pretty obscure and would actually likely be a better candidate for being Crete (seeing as they hold the whole island and are more recognizable than Epirus (plus they don't actually control the area known as Epirus, they have Corfu (the island west of Greece).
Spain
Spain is actually set up pretty nicely aside from the fact that León is not a defined kingdom. We may want to transform Castille-Aragon into just Aragon and make León into Castille to save some time. Granada, Galicia (...a precursor to León), Portugal and even Catalonia are all defined. Making the León-held Pyrenees into another country probably isn't advisable.
Burgundy's Valencia and Catalonia could probably be made into an allied Catalonia.
Outremer (Egypt to Antioch)
There is, in fact, no Egypt defined in base EU3. We'll probably have to remedy this since we have a (mostly) Catholic state set up there. In fact, the only crusader kingdom that is set up is Jerusalem. So Damascus and Jaffa would both likely need their own definitions (or some stolen, altered Islamic country's files). It's all pretty much the Ottoman Empire in EU3. There's also no Jordan or Sinai (for Normandy's holdings) or other minors available (so we might consider giving that all to Egypt or conglomerating them).
There's an Iraq and assortment of minors available to fill in areas in the Fertile Crescent and the Caucasus. The Murabitids (i.e. Almohads, Almoravids and so on) have a few holdings in the area, which could probably fit with Syria (...they also control Tangiers).
Zenata will likely be our equivalent to the Ottoman Empire (or we could be fancy and try to integrate it into some sort of Timurid Empire).
North Africa
Morocco turned out surprisingly like its real-world modern counterpart with a Spanish and (sort of) independent Morocco. Zenata's holdings could probably beformed into Morocco or Morocco and Algeria.
The Rif Republic isn't defined and is anachronistic (...Portugal invaded the area in the late 1400s/early 1500s, but it remained Portuguese). Fez developed in the area, but is distinctly Islamic in its creation. It's an independent in the game, so something will probably need to be made up for it - either a misfit Rif Republic (possibly led by Joel Hodgson or Michael Nelson) or something else.
Kabylia is similarily undefined (although hard-pressed we could use a renamed Algiers). The area was basically an autonomous region that resisted Ottoman and French rule throughout the last 700 years. Somehow they managed to grab Rosello (in Spain). They're also led by a Christian if I recall correctly.
The Kingdom of Sicily is probably best off Interchanged with the Kingdom of Naples (although technically in the CK save they don't control Naples), since the island of Sicily exists now. Their holdings in Tunisia are pretty much contiguous with their empire and should probably stay as they are.
Poland's holdings in Tripoli would probably be best explained as actual Polish posessions (they've spent time taking them from Denmark and Sicily), but gameplay-wise would likely work best as a vassalized Tripoli.
Italy
Italy's pretty well-defined, but I would recommend making either Genoa or Venice an ally or vassal of Sicily (Naples) instead of an actual portion of their empire. Otherwise they will control the 2 most profitable lands in Italy and will likely steamroll all their neighbors. In this case you might want to take Liguria (Naples-controlled) and Parma (Portugal-controlled) and combine them to form Genoa as an ally of Portugal and Naples.
You may want to do something similar with Lombardia and the neighboring Polish province of Brescia (since it's likely not worth it to create files for a one-province minor likely to be quickly eaten by neighbors and Poland would likely use it as a springboard to absorb Italy).
Bern and Schywz should probably be combined to form a very decentralized Swiss nation.
I'd also be for giving Rome to the Papal state, possibly giving Nice to a neighbor in exchange (although a slightly richer Papal state may help since they won't have Ancona and Romagna). In exchange we can make Portugal the first Curia controller.
Lothringen would probably work best as an allied state (they're then an independent HRE nation on par with Bohemia, Hannover and some other large-ish German states). I'd recommend making Köln a separate allied state, however. Same with Mecklenburg and that misplaced Belarus-like pile of land we have east of Poland...And our Serbo-Croatian holding.
We don't have Sardinia-Piedmonte, we've got Sardinia-Provence...likely to be much less successful .
Leon and Egypt were the two countries I think we're going to have to make for sure. Which means we'll need flags and what not. I should hopefully be back online by the end of the weekend and we can start getting organized.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I just wanted to chime in and say this LP made me download the EU3 demo.
Where can I buy the first game, and for how much? I love Civ and other turn-based strategy games, and I haven't even heard of these...
First impression (with tutorial not yet even properly started)... the scope of this game is just.... vast. I can see why you wanted to split it up between players...
EUIII is the most Civ-y of the games, I'd say. CK is still pretty hardcore strategy but it's very, very different. Then Victoria is an... overly ambitious economic modeler. That I like a lot conceptually but I'm terrible at because I'm a builder and ignore my military so inevitably get destroyed by the British.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
EU3 is definately the easiest to start up and play (although Victoria 2 does have some pretty in-depth tutorials). Most paradox games are notoriously under documented and people end up digging through files, patch notes and trial-and-error to determine the nuance of some of the mechanics.
In truth, the games don't truly form a cohesive timeline. Aside from the small games between the primary games, the mechanics in each don't truly correspond with social, political, economic and technological advancement in history. Recognizable nation-states throughout the world didn't magically materialize in 1399 (or the fall of Constantinople in 1452 as in vanilla EU3). But most of them play similarly. EU and Vicky are probably the most similar. HOI2 is a big war simulator and CK is a bit more RPG-ish. Although Vicky is actually older, CK arguably has a worse UI and is functionally more difficult to grasp than Victoria (CK utilizes feudal concepts that can be confusing, whereas Vicky uses nation-states (many of which have modern equivalents)).
Regarding the LP: I forgot to note that there are currently only 2 actual bishoprics within the boundaries of our hypothetical empire. We'll either need to change the balance of 3 spiritual (church-based) and 4 temporal (...secular) electors...or transform a historically religion-oriented area into a bishopric.
...Technically they should be archbishoprics but there are only 3 of those in the whole of the known world and two of them are in Outremer near Antioch and Jerusalem. I'm surprised we have 3 bishoprics within our lands, though. I'm guessing most of them were created by our vassal dukes.
Regardless I feel we should modify the game to make it much more difficult to unify the HRE (as well as making the title hereditary and such). I probably wouldn't go so far as to copy Magna Mundi (those event chains for transfers of land and Imperial Sanctions and such are incredibly long and complex), but some hearty difficulty to try to dissuade all but the most powerful state in the empire to enact hereditary edicts or power grabs until late in the period (maybe aiding the potential formation of a German state in Victoria beyond the likely-to-be-outdated 4 that exist).
Honestly, the only issue I might have is forcing our current map to conform too closely with EUIII. As long as the conversion approximates our current map(to whatever extent is feasible/easy for enlightenedbum to do), I'm happy with it. I'm in this for the delicious alternate history.
Mostly some of the enforced EUIII-ness will be because of ease of conversion and not making a bunch of new nations. Like the major Norwegian power is Orkney, but I'll probably just call them Norway because I'm lazy. If I can do so, I might go edit their missions to give them a slightly more Scottish focus...
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Mostly some of the enforced EUIII-ness will be because of ease of conversion and not making a bunch of new nations. Like the major Norwegian power is Orkney, but I'll probably just call them Norway because I'm lazy. If I can do so, I might go edit their missions to give them a slightly more Scottish focus...
Not to be overly pedantic about history-related stuff but ...until the late 1400s Orkney was Norse and not Scottish, so there'd be no reason to give them any real relation to Scotland beyond that whole historical event of "Anglo-Saxons and Danes invading, pillaging and eventually settling in the British Isles." Most people in Orkney still don't consider themselves primarily Scottish over 500 years later.
Even though they're technically part of our empire. If you're willing to give up the lands I'd recommend just making Norway into Norway.
The area with the most leeway is probably France, since we have altered it significantly (not that having Leon and Galicia isn't sort of strange (Galicia being a predecessor to the Kingdom of León). But default EU3 also has an immense number of alternative countries to fill in there (at least compared to other regions).
I mean, we have the equivalent of Toulouse as part of our lands (which could easily be a vassal or just part of our lands), but then we could hypothetically do the same to Aquitaine as their lands encompass Aquitaine, Guyenne, and Armagnac (though I don't recommend shrinking or contiguous neighbors).
The other dubious problem is the British Isles. The idea of a more dominant Scotland is interesting (although - excluding Scotland's lands abroad (particularly Brandenburg), Scotland has about the same amount of land as England. Aside from the coincidence that the area turned out somewhat historically, I think it'd be interesting to see which one actually wins out in the area (although their normal roles are switched...even to the extent that Scotland has taken a part of Ireland).
The problem with the Isles is that there aren't many countries defined there - especially the tiny ones (see: the (incomplete) tag list). Namely: Lancaster, York, Northerumberland, Wales, and Cornwall are the only defined 'independent counties'. I'd recommend splitting the remaining land between the two. Since there aren't any counties for Scotland give them all the open land up there and then give England any land that can't be attributed to a defined minor. That should keep them equal to how they are now (with a slightly more powerful Scotland).
Bah, all my posts turn into long dissertations, I should stop writing these things :?
I guess my hope is that if we define our world well enough it won't evolve into the typical long succession fare of 8 mega-nations by HOI2 (or even Victoria).
As a general rule I totally agree with Rex but I'll chime in on individual things:
1.) Iberia as Rex points out shouldn't be a problem. The tags exist and it "relatively" historical.
2.) I would _not_ handle our holdings in Spain as a vassal of Leon. I may be reading Rex incorrectly here. I would definitely give Aragon claims in our holdings there. I think they presuppose that we aren't very centralized.
3.) Venice is a disaster. None of these games make invading Venice the nightmare it should be (deep randomly navigable swamp land with pikes, chains and various booby traps defended by freemen that are the envy of everyone but the Dutch). Venice should be set free. If you want, make it an ally of Sicily (with bad relations) but don't let Sicily own it. This would mean Venice was playing a game with Sicily that it historically played with the two empires.
4.) Agree with Greece
5.) Russia...don't know where to begin since I don't know any eastern European history of note. I really don't know where the mongol states (which never took off) and our Russian minors will line up. If the Karellian's are Rus then wouldn't they essentially be the Novograd that failed historically? If so we have an early "Russia".
6.) I'd at the very least ally Damascus and Egypt (it really doesn't have a tag???) Christian Egypt is the center of power out there and the dynastic ties would probably cause them to be traditional allies if not willingly enter into a vassal relationship.
The original inhabitants of Karelia were a sub-group of ethic Finns. Invasion and religious conversion by Swedes, Russians, and Finns from Finland proper have muddled modern ethic lines across Karelia, but in our alternate history the KE's success should obviously preclude that. The Karelian Empire should be treated a large, independent and powerful Finland, rather than a russian state.
Posts
[tiny]I keed, I keed.[/tiny]
...I think we might be able to sack Baghdad to pay off our Alexandrian loan sharks.
Operation: Instigate Civil War, King John Style, was a success. We are much reduced, our King died in the fighting and a brave new King (Nicolas, who will also be me, probably my last ruler for the whole thing) will lead us into the 15th Century. We're Emperor of Byzantium, but no longer Western Roman Emperor.
Also coming soon! Maps! We can start arguing on how to divide stuff. Some interesting things have happened.
Chapters 28 and 29: The Sixth Crusade and The Second Ducal War (1390 - 1399)
With a nearly three to one advantage and the approval of the various local lords and nobles, Ioannes launched the Sixth Crusade in the Fall of 1390. Zenata had greatly expanded in the Holy Land and controlled most of the territory once controlled by the Persian Empire. They also possessed the coast of Morocco. A small contingent of Frankish soldiers were sent to Morocco while the bulk of the force, some 50,000 men were shipped to Jerusalem proper.
Meanwhile, the Pope was not impressed and stripped Ioannes of the Emperorship he had just granted him a few years prior. Perhaps the Pope suspected Ioannes of aiming to recreate the Roman Empire and displace the Papacy. A cryptic reference to "plans" in Ioannes diaries indicate this may have been a possibility.
The Crusade itself was a rousing success with Ioannes driving the Muslims before him repeatedly. He first offered peace upon the liberation of Damascus, merely asking for the Byzantine crown and Jerusalem itself. At first, the Zenatans fought on and rejected his generous offer.
However, eventually they surrendered to the inevitable, as several other European Kingdoms declared war on them and they needed their territory freed up to fight the Greeks, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and various Spaniards. Jerusalem had been liberated, once again.
Just after the Crusade ended long simmering tensions between the Duchy of Aquitaine and Ioannes came to a head. War broke out. Furious over the rebellion by the Occitan Duke, Ioannes finally stood up for himself and ordered every Ducal title in the Kingdom belonging to a non-Frank to be stripped and returned to him.
Bum's note: Yes, this is gamy, but I was getting desperate.
This demonstration did go over well with Ioannes vassals, many of whom rebelled (there's lots more where this came from). Others were merely threatening rebellion. And still others left peacefully.
Meanwhile, some very odd ducks asked to join the mighty Frankish Empire. However, frustrated with all the foreigners looking to take his power and drive the Kingdom into various foreign wars he refused to get involved in, Ioannes declined all such entreaties. He also accepted white peaces from most of his former vassals in exchange for large amounts of gold. The treasury overflowed, but the kingdom had become significantly smaller and lost nearly all of its overseas possessions.
In the winter of 1398, Ioannes contracted one of the great plagues that had destabilized the country throughout the 14th century. By January of 1399 he was deathly ill and called for his son Nicolas who would be King after him. He told Nicolas he sensed a great new age of exploration and invention and told Nicolas to lead the Frankish people into it. Four days later, he succumbed to the Black Death.
Maps to come in a little bit.
Sir, them's fighting words! Fisticuffs outside, now.
First, let's check out our new King, who will be somewhat Francofied in EU3. All hail Nicolas! For stats, thought I'd divide by 2, so: Admin 8, Diplomacy 6, Martial 4
Finland dominates modern day Finland and most of the important parts of Russia. Though Novgorod did win their independence from the mighty pagan Finns. The Duchy of Greater Poland is independent of Poland and controls most of the Baltic States, as you can see. I might just make them the Teutonic Order? The brown blob in the steppes is the Duchy of Brunswick, of all things. Definitely a name change, they'll become something more geographically appropriate. The Kingdom of Bulgaria did an impressive job of expanding, they're the big blue blob on the north coast of the Black Sea. Poland is Poland, pretty mediocre but there. They have territories randomly spread around Europe that I'll probably consolidate and give them some of their broken away vassals instead.
The former Byzantine Empire has split into three parts. Edessa controls most of the Balkans, The Aegean Isles controls Greece proper, and Cibarryhot controls Anatolia. I will probably make them Anatolia or Turkey or something in EU3, just so they can be spelled. They're all Orthodox. On the north coast of the Black Sea we can again see Bulgaria
Zenata dominates the Middle East. There are still some Crusader States that I'll probably make several different countries out of, as they are massively fractured. Also some Muslim minors lying around that I'll consolidate into basically what they were in EU3's normal campaign, probably.
Egypt is still a Christian Kingdom, with most of modern day Egypt except the Delta and Sinai. Importantly, they have Alexandria.
This is west Zenata, which I'll probably split off as its own nation. And call it Morocco.
Iberia is split, though the Kingdom of Aragon made a huge late charge, seizing Castille. Galicia has EU3's Galicia (if you get it released) so they'll begin the game existing. Portugal only has north Portugal, while Leon has SW Iberia. Aragon/Castille has the middle, and the Duchy of Navarra is the thing labeled there. The current Duchy of Aragon will become the Duchy of Foix, for geographic reasons.
Scotland is currently facing rebellion (and losing) from one of their counties, but they've also conquered northern Ireland and crowned themselves King of the whole island. Not sure how to handle the rebels yet. Northumberland is independent and already has a country made for me in EU3, so they'll be independent. Norway has reconquered the area near York, Wales still exists, and England is pretty small. I'll have to make them some new missions?
Orkney owns what should be Norway. Norway is somewhere in Germany with four billion other minors (more on that in a second). Sweden has completely disintegrated, not sure what we should do with it. Denmark is a couple provinces near Hamburg.
There is Germany. There are no united German Duchies. It's a mess. So Germany may look much like the default EU3 Germany, with a much less powerful Bohemia/Austria.
And then there's France. I lost a lot of it, thankfully. Normandy and Brittany are definitely independent. Champagne isn't where it should be strictly, but not a big deal. Aquitaine is the most powerful of them, I might give them a couple more of the Occitan provinces. Bohemia owns the Netherlands, which I skillfully cropped out. The Papacy is down where I labeled them, I might give them a decent sized area to work with. Then there are some more German minors in Germany.
I forgot to take a shot of Italy, but: Duke of Sicily owns Sicily. King of Sicily owns southern Italy (Naples in normal EU3). Italy has various territories in northern/mid Italy, as does Tuscany.
Spain looks surprisingly coherent for the most part, Leon in particular. Britain and Scandinavia are the only real disaster areas in terms of making coherent countries. Germany is a mess, but thats historically accurate so that works out pretty well.
Another option is that the Frankish kings "split" the Empire into two kingdoms. Not disputing Germany they halted expansion on the northern border except for those strong princes that joined it willingly (probably during the Ducal War). That these freedoms granted to Frankish princes led to a stronger Noble spirit that led to the Frankish king eventually being stripped of the Imperial crown (so all Ducal territories in France [north east and south west in a long diagonal spear]) are under joint Imperial/French administration which would weaken the King's control in these areas.
Both are plausible.
Then there's Germany...
(This post brought to you by the letter M)
The Political Sphere of the Carolingian World in 1399
One province countries are not capitalized (if you see a lone province with a capitalized name then they have holdings elsewhere). There are many minors in the Middle East and Sweden (I would probably recommend creating Sweden in EU3 with a very low Centralization score).
Byzantium basically split into Epirus, Crete, the Aegean Islands and Bulgaria...who then also inherited a lot of Russian lands. Making the whole area a giant mess. Germany will probably be similar to vanilla EU3, with someone replacing Austria (particularly once overseas possesions are broken into independent (or vassalized) nations).
(despite ebum's concerns about Germany, Russia is likely going to be a huge pain due to the lack of alternative countries to put there.)
...Apparently I forgot to use the adjective form of Islamic.
I also have the locations of all the bishoprics and archbishoprics in the world, but there aren't really enough to be of note. Heretics, protestants and "undesirable" sects based off historic and in-game results).
Blue consists of areas with German or Italian culture with an Italian ruler, or provinces adjacent to at least 2 such provinces. This is most representative of the initial lands that were part of the Empire in the 11th century (in the 1040s and 1060s areas on Moravia, Bohemia and Hungary were added; later Pommerania and portions of the Baltic coast).
Red consists of areas with Italian culture with non-Italian rulers (often Norman or Occitan). By the beginning of EU3 most of the lands down to the Papal States (which don't exist at Rome for us anymore) remained with the Empire as part of the historic Kingdom of Italy that accompanied the emperor's realm. However, historically these regions also left the empire (including Switzerland). As a defensible merchant Republic, Venice was never adopted into the Empire (although the Kingdom of Sicily currently owns Venice).
Purple encompasses Bohemian culture that didn't comfortably fit within the German-Italian zone (ostensibly this should be included regardless, but it's sort of an unaesthetic finger of the Empire). Bohemian culture is otherwise treated as German culture (i.e. Bohemian culture extends beyond the 2 provinces indicated here).
Green is North Slavic (not Polish) and were gradually adopted into the empire (in some cases before 1066). Historically the Teutonic Knights spend a whole lot of time crusading against pagans in northeast Germany/Poland (into the Baltic States), which is why they're generally German or Polish in later Paradox games.
Grey is Prussian (the Teutonic Knights held this area in our game for a significant portion of time).
Yellow is Dutch, who - depending on the time - were on-again, off-again members of the empire in some cases.
Orange encompasses Frankish culture. Our great ancestors were part of Charlemagne's family that historically fell within the Kingdom of Italy. Whether or not to include our main cultural areas into the empire would have to be a choice we'd have to make (in-game we haven't had too much war-mongering to the East, most of it has been South and overseas).
Burgundy's lands are superimposed on the image. Even counting solely the blue area, some of our provinces would fall within the Empire.
If you're wondering what this world might look like in EU3, here's your chance. Keep in mind that we'll likely still have too many independent countries and that far flung possessions would likely work best as allies or vassals (e.g. our possession of Luxemburg or Norway; Scotland's possession of Brandenburg; Poland's possession of Munster in Ireland, etc.).
When in-doubt I tried to trend towards contiguous lands. Papal lands outside of France were rejected in favor of a logical local owner.
Anyway, my take on how to sort out the map:
Seems like we'd be best off splitting off any non-contiguous portions of the large-ish empires. So independent bavaria, Netherlands (perhaps brabant would be better there? Netherlands without Holland seems a bit strange to me). Perhaps make Roma the papal state, since it doesn't seem to make much sense keeping it part of Portugal. The papacy in southern France could be Avignon.
I'm mildly in favour of actually keeping Scotland's Irish holdings intact, as I like the idea of a celtic empire.
A de-centralised Sweden seems the only way to make any sense of Scandinavia. I'm not so sure what to do with the Karelian empire, did anything like that ever actually exist? Has the potential to form a powerhouse Russia if it takes out Novgorod early on.
Given we were the ones with the empire title for much of the later game, it might make sense to include much of France in the HRE, though I'm not really sure how such things worked historically.
Poland should keep Bavaria too, either as a vassal or PU (my favourite). The holding is too prestigious and close enough to be difficult to write off (unlike say Mazovia's two provinces in dirt poor Ireland).
Crete should be renamed Byzantium (as an Imperial successor state having reconquered Constantinople).
Finally, a Scottish Celtic Empire (with a weak England) should make for an interesting Britain.
A Celtic empire in Britain would have the potential of beating England and a Celtic Britain is something that would be fun to see.
Also, I may split off part of our tail and give it to Aquitane to give us a relatively immediate rival. Valencia will be a vassal state I think. (I was so annoyed they didn't bail) Not sure how to handle Lothringen yet.
...and now we have Russian Alsace.
Some recommendations on different areas:
Greece and Russia (primarily held by Cibyrrhaeot, Epirus, Aegean Islands)
Cibyrrhaeot is a problem to start with (not just because it's un-spellable). Never mind that I have Rhodes listed as Crete because they didn't own Rhodes for a while before. They're probably your best bet for a reborn Byzantium as the controller of Constantinople (as well as holdings on both sides of the Aegean).
There's room for Morea and possibly renaming Athens to support the Aegean Islands conglomeration (or using Naxos, which is an island in the Aegean).
Epirus is pretty obscure and would actually likely be a better candidate for being Crete (seeing as they hold the whole island and are more recognizable than Epirus (plus they don't actually control the area known as Epirus, they have Corfu (the island west of Greece).
Spain
Burgundy's Valencia and Catalonia could probably be made into an allied Catalonia.
Outremer (Egypt to Antioch)
There's an Iraq and assortment of minors available to fill in areas in the Fertile Crescent and the Caucasus. The Murabitids (i.e. Almohads, Almoravids and so on) have a few holdings in the area, which could probably fit with Syria (...they also control Tangiers).
Zenata will likely be our equivalent to the Ottoman Empire (or we could be fancy and try to integrate it into some sort of Timurid Empire).
North Africa
The Rif Republic isn't defined and is anachronistic (...Portugal invaded the area in the late 1400s/early 1500s, but it remained Portuguese). Fez developed in the area, but is distinctly Islamic in its creation. It's an independent in the game, so something will probably need to be made up for it - either a misfit Rif Republic (possibly led by Joel Hodgson or Michael Nelson) or something else.
Kabylia is similarily undefined (although hard-pressed we could use a renamed Algiers). The area was basically an autonomous region that resisted Ottoman and French rule throughout the last 700 years. Somehow they managed to grab Rosello (in Spain). They're also led by a Christian if I recall correctly.
The Kingdom of Sicily is probably best off Interchanged with the Kingdom of Naples (although technically in the CK save they don't control Naples), since the island of Sicily exists now. Their holdings in Tunisia are pretty much contiguous with their empire and should probably stay as they are.
Poland's holdings in Tripoli would probably be best explained as actual Polish posessions (they've spent time taking them from Denmark and Sicily), but gameplay-wise would likely work best as a vassalized Tripoli.
Italy
You may want to do something similar with Lombardia and the neighboring Polish province of Brescia (since it's likely not worth it to create files for a one-province minor likely to be quickly eaten by neighbors and Poland would likely use it as a springboard to absorb Italy).
Bern and Schywz should probably be combined to form a very decentralized Swiss nation.
I'd also be for giving Rome to the Papal state, possibly giving Nice to a neighbor in exchange (although a slightly richer Papal state may help since they won't have Ancona and Romagna). In exchange we can make Portugal the first Curia controller.
Lothringen would probably work best as an allied state (they're then an independent HRE nation on par with Bohemia, Hannover and some other large-ish German states). I'd recommend making Köln a separate allied state, however. Same with Mecklenburg and that misplaced Belarus-like pile of land we have east of Poland...And our Serbo-Croatian holding.
We don't have Sardinia-Piedmonte, we've got Sardinia-Provence...likely to be much less successful
Where can I buy the first game, and for how much? I love Civ and other turn-based strategy games, and I haven't even heard of these...
First impression (with tutorial not yet even properly started)... the scope of this game is just.... vast. I can see why you wanted to split it up between players...
I recommend sticking with EU3 for now, its not like they form a narrative.
In truth, the games don't truly form a cohesive timeline. Aside from the small games between the primary games, the mechanics in each don't truly correspond with social, political, economic and technological advancement in history. Recognizable nation-states throughout the world didn't magically materialize in 1399 (or the fall of Constantinople in 1452 as in vanilla EU3). But most of them play similarly. EU and Vicky are probably the most similar. HOI2 is a big war simulator and CK is a bit more RPG-ish. Although Vicky is actually older, CK arguably has a worse UI and is functionally more difficult to grasp than Victoria (CK utilizes feudal concepts that can be confusing, whereas Vicky uses nation-states (many of which have modern equivalents)).
Regarding the LP: I forgot to note that there are currently only 2 actual bishoprics within the boundaries of our hypothetical empire. We'll either need to change the balance of 3 spiritual (church-based) and 4 temporal (...secular) electors...or transform a historically religion-oriented area into a bishopric.
...Technically they should be archbishoprics but there are only 3 of those in the whole of the known world and two of them are in Outremer near Antioch and Jerusalem. I'm surprised we have 3 bishoprics within our lands, though. I'm guessing most of them were created by our vassal dukes.
Regardless I feel we should modify the game to make it much more difficult to unify the HRE (as well as making the title hereditary and such). I probably wouldn't go so far as to copy Magna Mundi (those event chains for transfers of land and Imperial Sanctions and such are incredibly long and complex), but some hearty difficulty to try to dissuade all but the most powerful state in the empire to enact hereditary edicts or power grabs until late in the period (maybe aiding the potential formation of a German state in Victoria beyond the likely-to-be-outdated 4 that exist).
Not to be overly pedantic about history-related stuff but ...until the late 1400s Orkney was Norse and not Scottish, so there'd be no reason to give them any real relation to Scotland beyond that whole historical event of "Anglo-Saxons and Danes invading, pillaging and eventually settling in the British Isles." Most people in Orkney still don't consider themselves primarily Scottish over 500 years later.
Even though they're technically part of our empire. If you're willing to give up the lands I'd recommend just making Norway into Norway.
I know lots of American history but considerably less European until the 20th century.
I mean, we have the equivalent of Toulouse as part of our lands (which could easily be a vassal or just part of our lands), but then we could hypothetically do the same to Aquitaine as their lands encompass Aquitaine, Guyenne, and Armagnac (though I don't recommend shrinking or contiguous neighbors).
The other dubious problem is the British Isles. The idea of a more dominant Scotland is interesting (although - excluding Scotland's lands abroad (particularly Brandenburg), Scotland has about the same amount of land as England. Aside from the coincidence that the area turned out somewhat historically, I think it'd be interesting to see which one actually wins out in the area (although their normal roles are switched...even to the extent that Scotland has taken a part of Ireland).
The problem with the Isles is that there aren't many countries defined there - especially the tiny ones (see: the (incomplete) tag list). Namely: Lancaster, York, Northerumberland, Wales, and Cornwall are the only defined 'independent counties'. I'd recommend splitting the remaining land between the two. Since there aren't any counties for Scotland give them all the open land up there and then give England any land that can't be attributed to a defined minor. That should keep them equal to how they are now (with a slightly more powerful Scotland).
Bah, all my posts turn into long dissertations, I should stop writing these things :?
I guess my hope is that if we define our world well enough it won't evolve into the typical long succession fare of 8 mega-nations by HOI2 (or even Victoria).
1.) Iberia as Rex points out shouldn't be a problem. The tags exist and it "relatively" historical.
2.) I would _not_ handle our holdings in Spain as a vassal of Leon. I may be reading Rex incorrectly here. I would definitely give Aragon claims in our holdings there. I think they presuppose that we aren't very centralized.
3.) Venice is a disaster. None of these games make invading Venice the nightmare it should be (deep randomly navigable swamp land with pikes, chains and various booby traps defended by freemen that are the envy of everyone but the Dutch). Venice should be set free. If you want, make it an ally of Sicily (with bad relations) but don't let Sicily own it. This would mean Venice was playing a game with Sicily that it historically played with the two empires.
4.) Agree with Greece
5.) Russia...don't know where to begin since I don't know any eastern European history of note. I really don't know where the mongol states (which never took off) and our Russian minors will line up. If the Karellian's are Rus then wouldn't they essentially be the Novograd that failed historically? If so we have an early "Russia".
6.) I'd at the very least ally Damascus and Egypt (it really doesn't have a tag???) Christian Egypt is the center of power out there and the dynastic ties would probably cause them to be traditional allies if not willingly enter into a vassal relationship.