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On Education, Unions, Teachers and Pay

1246

Posts

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I think it's even more important to increase the level of certification needed in the short term and increase the difficulty of obtaining said certification in the long term. The job market is just too flooded with incompetent teachers.

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • Agent CooperAgent Cooper Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I don't know Butters, all I ever hear about is a teacher shortage. Emergency certifications and the like.

    Tenure should definitely be harder to get, though.

  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Hunter wrote: »
    I'm still stuck on the most teachers work 60 hours plus a week.

    He honestly believes his own hype. God bless him.

    Teachers are hard working and it's a hard job, just like many other equally hard professional jobs.

    Also chemicals or something. China. Teachers are philosopher-kings.

    I figured you'd hop on with the others and still not answer a single question I've asked you. Let's clear something up...

    I'm not saying teachers are white knights who are the most important people since Jesus. I am of the extreme opinion that teachers should enter the building, teach their subject, and leave it at that. The reality is, they are expected to be de facto parents in addition to their subject. THAT'S where the 60 hours come from, from bullshit. They do it because they're forced to, not because they want to or they're noble. And why is this? Because people look at the numbers and say, "Teachers aren't doing enough!" when there are so many other things. I'm arguing that parenting is the most important job and teachers SHOULD BE no different from chemists or mechanics or periodontists.


    This is about teacher evaluation. Metrics, that was a word used by you. Can you at the very least agree to that fact?

    OK, what you said, if I understand correctly, is that your chemicals sometimes vary from what they should be, and this causes you problems. This makes metrics difficult. My argument is that human beings are living variables, and "what they should be" is the exception rather than the rule. This does not make the teacher smarter, or more important, or better than you, it simply makes metrics much more difficult to establish.

    Please read this and respond to what I've actually written.

  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Hunter wrote: »
    Veretas wrote: »
    I am down with an evaluation system for teachers to give incentive for teachers to actually, you know, teach. But I can't think of any proper way to do it that wouldn't either be exploited into oblivion or be a broken mess all together.

    Teachers who go that extra mile should be rewarded.

    Exactly. A merit based system.

    Setting it up is hard, which apparently means impossible and we should just do nothing because kids don't eat breakfast and 60 hours a week or something.

    I'm totally open to a merit based system

    as soon as anyone in the world proposes one that is workable

  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I don't know Butters, all I ever hear about is a teacher shortage. Emergency certifications and the like.

    Tenure should definitely be harder to get, though.

    Another note: I don't know a damn thing about tenure or unions. I have the "right to work."

  • HunterHunter Chemist with a heart of Au Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    No, there are many jobs that deal with human beings that have metrics to evaluate performance. Doctors, nurses, therapists, social workers, etc.

    Try again though. Unless you're claiming teachers are the only profession to deal with human clients and the variables living entities bring with them.

  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Seriously? You seem to have missed the bit where I said that's it's bullshit that teachers are supposed to be anything like social workers, but that's fine. OK, prove it. I accept for doctors and nurses the metric is "Is patient dead? Y/N" What is the metric for therapists and social workers?

  • HunterHunter Chemist with a heart of Au Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    People in state hospital settings vs in group homes vs assisted living vs prison. People are raging alcoholics or people are in 12 step programs and not drinking. People not having their children due to abuse or unfit living conditions vs people have their children and are doing better.

    Good enough for you?

    Seriously? Are you for real?

    Answer one question for me, are you perhaps within your 1st to 3rd semester of college?

    EDIT: Also, do you know what the term 'metric' means? Maybe mile-stone or goal? Accomplishment? Pass-fail?

  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Hunter wrote: »
    Veretas wrote: »
    I am down with an evaluation system for teachers to give incentive for teachers to actually, you know, teach. But I can't think of any proper way to do it that wouldn't either be exploited into oblivion or be a broken mess all together.

    Teachers who go that extra mile should be rewarded.

    Exactly. A merit based system.

    Setting it up is hard, which apparently means impossible and we should just do nothing because kids don't eat breakfast and 60 hours a week or something.

    I'm totally open to a merit based system

    as soon as anyone in the world proposes one that is workable

    I like the way you think

    reposig.jpg
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Hunter wrote: »
    Veretas wrote: »
    I am down with an evaluation system for teachers to give incentive for teachers to actually, you know, teach. But I can't think of any proper way to do it that wouldn't either be exploited into oblivion or be a broken mess all together.

    Teachers who go that extra mile should be rewarded.

    Exactly. A merit based system.

    Setting it up is hard, which apparently means impossible and we should just do nothing because kids don't eat breakfast and 60 hours a week or something.

    I'm totally open to a merit based system

    as soon as anyone in the world proposes one that is workable

    You have to start somewhere. You cannot let the current trend of poor test scores and poor graduation rates especially in underprivileged communities continue.

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • Agent CooperAgent Cooper Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'm really confused as to why a metric for evaluating teachers is so difficult to come up with when the whole education system in the United States is built around periodic evaluations of student work.

    I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a high school freshman should be able to name the three branches of the federal government and explain the system of checks and balances? And if a sizable portion of a particular teacher's class can't do that, there is something horribly wrong going on in that classroom?

  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Honestly, I can't come up with a concrete opinion here, because students are awful waffle

    reposig.jpg
  • Count ZeroCount Zero Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'm really confused as to why a metric for evaluating teachers is so difficult to come up with when the whole education system in the United States is built around periodic evaluations of student work.

    I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a high school freshman should be able to name the three branches of the federal government and explain the system of checks and balances? And if a sizable portion of a particular teacher's class can't do that, there is something horribly wrong going on in that classroom?

    Because then what you get is teaching to the test, so instead of focusing on overall comprehension the teacher spends their time making sure everyone knows the three branches of government, checks and balances, and nothing else.

    Note: I am pro-metrics I just am not sure what those metrics should be.

    image.php?type=sigpic&userid=38624&dateline=1248802110
  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Hunter wrote: »
    People in state hospital settings vs in group homes vs assisted living vs prison. People are raging alcoholics or people are in 12 step programs and not drinking. People not having their children due to abuse or unfit living conditions vs people have their children and are doing better.

    Good enough for you?

    Seriously? Are you for real?

    Answer one question for me, are you perhaps within your 1st to 3rd semester of college?

    EDIT: Also, do you know what the term 'metric' means? Maybe mile-stone or goal? Accomplishment? Pass-fail?

    OK, so the social worker is given thirty cases and is judged according to how their clients are doing, alcoholics are now drinking less or families are now less abusive, etc.

    How does this have anything to do with how well they do on their chemistry test? You've given me a test of how well you can judge a person who's job is to deal with people with problems. A teacher's job, theoretically, is to teach students difficult concepts. I'm missing the connection. I'm also curious on how either of these things are comparable to mislabeled chemicals.

  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    You take that metaphor and squeeze it until it bleeds, Magnum.

    reposig.jpg
  • HunterHunter Chemist with a heart of Au Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MagnumCT wrote: »
    Hunter wrote: »
    People in state hospital settings vs in group homes vs assisted living vs prison. People are raging alcoholics or people are in 12 step programs and not drinking. People not having their children due to abuse or unfit living conditions vs people have their children and are doing better.

    Good enough for you?

    Seriously? Are you for real?

    Answer one question for me, are you perhaps within your 1st to 3rd semester of college?

    EDIT: Also, do you know what the term 'metric' means? Maybe mile-stone or goal? Accomplishment? Pass-fail?

    OK, so the social worker is given thirty cases and is judged according to how their clients are doing, alcoholics are now drinking less or families are now less abusive, etc.

    How does this have anything to do with how well they do on their chemistry test? You've given me a test of how well you can judge a person who's job is to deal with people with problems. A teacher's job, theoretically, is to teach students difficult concepts. I'm missing the connection. I'm also curious on how either of these things are comparable to mislabeled chemicals.

    Once again you downplay what profession X does and overly simplify it and then inflate what a teacher does.

    This is the thing. This here. It's what you're doing wrong.

  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Count Zero wrote: »
    I'm really confused as to why a metric for evaluating teachers is so difficult to come up with when the whole education system in the United States is built around periodic evaluations of student work.

    I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a high school freshman should be able to name the three branches of the federal government and explain the system of checks and balances? And if a sizable portion of a particular teacher's class can't do that, there is something horribly wrong going on in that classroom?

    Because then what you get is teaching to the test, so instead of focusing on overall comprehension the teacher spends their time making sure everyone knows the three branches of government, checks and balances, and nothing else.

    Note: I am pro-metrics I just am not sure what those metrics should be.

    I agree. Shitty teachers are shitty and are stealing from tax-payers. But many times shitty teachers get average numbers because of the student they get and good teachers get bad ones due to the bad students they get. These can flip from year to year and make the teachers look similar on paper.

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Count Zero wrote: »
    I'm really confused as to why a metric for evaluating teachers is so difficult to come up with when the whole education system in the United States is built around periodic evaluations of student work.

    I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a high school freshman should be able to name the three branches of the federal government and explain the system of checks and balances? And if a sizable portion of a particular teacher's class can't do that, there is something horribly wrong going on in that classroom?

    Because then what you get is teaching to the test, so instead of focusing on overall comprehension the teacher spends their time making sure everyone knows the three branches of government, checks and balances, and nothing else.

    Note: I am pro-metrics I just am not sure what those metrics should be.

    I understand that fear but not all metrics applied mean teaching to the test. Test that gauge basic math skills and basic reading comprehension are more than fair.

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I don't like the reliance we have here on standardized testing.

    Though now that I'm out of school I don't feel nearly as strongly about abolishing it.

    reposig.jpg
  • Agent CooperAgent Cooper Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Count Zero wrote: »
    I'm really confused as to why a metric for evaluating teachers is so difficult to come up with when the whole education system in the United States is built around periodic evaluations of student work.

    I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a high school freshman should be able to name the three branches of the federal government and explain the system of checks and balances? And if a sizable portion of a particular teacher's class can't do that, there is something horribly wrong going on in that classroom?

    Because then what you get is teaching to the test, so instead of focusing on overall comprehension the teacher spends their time making sure everyone knows the three branches of government, checks and balances, and nothing else.

    Note: I am pro-metrics I just am not sure what those metrics should be.

    That's why the tests should be essay questions (or at least short answer) and the questions shouldn't be revealed until the students open the quiz book.

    So instead of, say, "Which of the following is a branch of the federal government?" and then ABCDE, you get something like, "What is the role of the Supreme Court and how are justices appointed?"

  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Hunter wrote: »
    MagnumCT wrote: »
    Hunter wrote: »
    People in state hospital settings vs in group homes vs assisted living vs prison. People are raging alcoholics or people are in 12 step programs and not drinking. People not having their children due to abuse or unfit living conditions vs people have their children and are doing better.

    Good enough for you?

    Seriously? Are you for real?

    Answer one question for me, are you perhaps within your 1st to 3rd semester of college?

    EDIT: Also, do you know what the term 'metric' means? Maybe mile-stone or goal? Accomplishment? Pass-fail?

    OK, so the social worker is given thirty cases and is judged according to how their clients are doing, alcoholics are now drinking less or families are now less abusive, etc.

    How does this have anything to do with how well they do on their chemistry test? You've given me a test of how well you can judge a person who's job is to deal with people with problems. A teacher's job, theoretically, is to teach students difficult concepts. I'm missing the connection. I'm also curious on how either of these things are comparable to mislabeled chemicals.

    Once again you downplay what profession X does and overly simplify it and then inflate what a teacher does.

    This is the thing. This here. It's what you're doing wrong.

    No I'm not. Read this, this right here: TEACHERS ARE EXPECTED TO COMPENSATE FOR LOUSY PARENTING. They are expected to do this by "getting kids to care." I am not saying this. I am not arguing this. If it makes you happy, I say "fuck teachers." I'm just curious how you can measure the quality of people whose job description is "teach chemistry" when it's a complete crapshoot as to whether you get people who actually want to learn how to do chemistry.

  • Count ZeroCount Zero Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MagnumCT wrote: »
    Count Zero wrote: »
    I'm really confused as to why a metric for evaluating teachers is so difficult to come up with when the whole education system in the United States is built around periodic evaluations of student work.

    I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a high school freshman should be able to name the three branches of the federal government and explain the system of checks and balances? And if a sizable portion of a particular teacher's class can't do that, there is something horribly wrong going on in that classroom?

    Because then what you get is teaching to the test, so instead of focusing on overall comprehension the teacher spends their time making sure everyone knows the three branches of government, checks and balances, and nothing else.

    Note: I am pro-metrics I just am not sure what those metrics should be.

    I agree. Shitty teachers are shitty and are stealing from tax-payers. But many times shitty teachers get average numbers because of the student they get and good teachers get bad ones due to the bad students they get. These can flip from year to year and make the teachers look similar on paper.

    But you can factor this into the way teachers evaluated, have a system for teachers to identify and report problem students which will then be factored into the end of year reviews.

    image.php?type=sigpic&userid=38624&dateline=1248802110
  • futilityfutility Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2010
    The entire school system blows. It spends just as much time trying to find it's problems as it does creating them.

  • VeretasVeretas Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I don't like the reliance we have here on standardized testing.

    Though now that I'm out of school I don't feel nearly as strongly about abolishing it.

    hi5 for same opinions

  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Veretas wrote: »
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I don't like the reliance we have here on standardized testing.

    Though now that I'm out of school I don't feel nearly as strongly about abolishing it.

    hi5 for same opinions

    If we went through it then by God so should the next generation.

    reposig.jpg
  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Count Zero wrote: »
    I'm really confused as to why a metric for evaluating teachers is so difficult to come up with when the whole education system in the United States is built around periodic evaluations of student work.

    I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a high school freshman should be able to name the three branches of the federal government and explain the system of checks and balances? And if a sizable portion of a particular teacher's class can't do that, there is something horribly wrong going on in that classroom?

    Because then what you get is teaching to the test, so instead of focusing on overall comprehension the teacher spends their time making sure everyone knows the three branches of government, checks and balances, and nothing else.

    Note: I am pro-metrics I just am not sure what those metrics should be.

    That's why the tests should be essay questions (or at least short answer) and the questions shouldn't be revealed until the students open the quiz book.

    So instead of, say, "Which of the following is a branch of the federal government?" and then ABCDE, you get something like, "What is the role of the Supreme Court and how are justices appointed?"

    I like this. Then the question becomes, how do you get the kids to take the test seriously?

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I don't like the reliance we have here on standardized testing.

    Though now that I'm out of school I don't feel nearly as strongly about abolishing it.

    You simply can't avoid standardized testing entirely. It's just not feasible. The data isn't always fair but it is relevant and should be considered at least to a point.

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • futilityfutility Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2010
    Fandyien wrote: »
    Veretas wrote: »
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I don't like the reliance we have here on standardized testing.

    Though now that I'm out of school I don't feel nearly as strongly about abolishing it.

    hi5 for same opinions

    If we went through it then by God so should the next generation.

    The SAT is a better test now that it has been changes than how it was when I took it and it was just math & english

  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Butters wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Hunter wrote: »
    Veretas wrote: »
    I am down with an evaluation system for teachers to give incentive for teachers to actually, you know, teach. But I can't think of any proper way to do it that wouldn't either be exploited into oblivion or be a broken mess all together.

    Teachers who go that extra mile should be rewarded.

    Exactly. A merit based system.

    Setting it up is hard, which apparently means impossible and we should just do nothing because kids don't eat breakfast and 60 hours a week or something.

    I'm totally open to a merit based system

    as soon as anyone in the world proposes one that is workable

    You have to start somewhere. You cannot let the current trend of poor test scores and poor graduation rates especially in underprivileged communities continue.

    I agree completely

    it's just that

    1) I don't think the supposed epidemic of teacher incompetence is a significant part of the problem

    2) I haven't seen a workable method for evaluating teacher performance that doesn't incentivize cheating or narrow "sponge teaching" with no focus on critical thinking

    3) There's a much bigger fucking problem here and it's the funding structure

  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Butters wrote: »
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I don't like the reliance we have here on standardized testing.

    Though now that I'm out of school I don't feel nearly as strongly about abolishing it.

    You simply can't avoid standardized testing entirely. It's just not feasible. The data isn't always fair but it is relevant and should be considered at least to a point.

    I agree with you intellectually, it's just the implementation of standardized tests has been lackluster at best. Most kids are just all "shiiiiiit time to fill in some circles for six hours". I wrote my last SOL essay on Spock.

    reposig.jpg
  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Count Zero wrote: »
    MagnumCT wrote: »
    Count Zero wrote: »
    I'm really confused as to why a metric for evaluating teachers is so difficult to come up with when the whole education system in the United States is built around periodic evaluations of student work.

    I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a high school freshman should be able to name the three branches of the federal government and explain the system of checks and balances? And if a sizable portion of a particular teacher's class can't do that, there is something horribly wrong going on in that classroom?

    Because then what you get is teaching to the test, so instead of focusing on overall comprehension the teacher spends their time making sure everyone knows the three branches of government, checks and balances, and nothing else.

    Note: I am pro-metrics I just am not sure what those metrics should be.

    I agree. Shitty teachers are shitty and are stealing from tax-payers. But many times shitty teachers get average numbers because of the student they get and good teachers get bad ones due to the bad students they get. These can flip from year to year and make the teachers look similar on paper.

    But you can factor this into the way teachers evaluated, have a system for teachers to identify and report problem students which will then be factored into the end of year reviews.

    In theory, yes. But you have teachers with different standards. To some, most kids are troublemakers or idiots. To others, most kids are good kids at heart who just need a chance.

    Also, many administrators and people in authority are "good ol' boys" [bear with me, I'm from the South] who have been around for awhile when many of them should never have started.

  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    futility wrote: »
    Fandyien wrote: »
    Veretas wrote: »
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I don't like the reliance we have here on standardized testing.

    Though now that I'm out of school I don't feel nearly as strongly about abolishing it.

    hi5 for same opinions

    If we went through it then by God so should the next generation.

    The SAT is a better test now that it has been changes than how it was when I took it and it was just math & english

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/sat-found-to-be-biased-in-favor-of-nonhungover,9344/

    reposig.jpg
  • Agent CooperAgent Cooper Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Schools love "problem" children that they can demand be put on Ritalin or Prozac or whatever. It's pretty much their solution to everything. It's pretty horrible.

    Also, just because it's relevant:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

  • futilityfutility Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2010
    Fandyien wrote: »
    futility wrote: »
    Fandyien wrote: »
    Veretas wrote: »
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I don't like the reliance we have here on standardized testing.

    Though now that I'm out of school I don't feel nearly as strongly about abolishing it.

    hi5 for same opinions

    If we went through it then by God so should the next generation.

    The SAT is a better test now that it has been changes than how it was when I took it and it was just math & english

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/sat-found-to-be-biased-in-favor-of-nonhungover,9344/

    http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-are-tests-biased-against-students-who,17966/

  • Count ZeroCount Zero Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MagnumCT wrote: »
    Count Zero wrote: »
    MagnumCT wrote: »
    Count Zero wrote: »
    I'm really confused as to why a metric for evaluating teachers is so difficult to come up with when the whole education system in the United States is built around periodic evaluations of student work.

    I mean, is it really so hard to believe that a high school freshman should be able to name the three branches of the federal government and explain the system of checks and balances? And if a sizable portion of a particular teacher's class can't do that, there is something horribly wrong going on in that classroom?

    Because then what you get is teaching to the test, so instead of focusing on overall comprehension the teacher spends their time making sure everyone knows the three branches of government, checks and balances, and nothing else.

    Note: I am pro-metrics I just am not sure what those metrics should be.

    I agree. Shitty teachers are shitty and are stealing from tax-payers. But many times shitty teachers get average numbers because of the student they get and good teachers get bad ones due to the bad students they get. These can flip from year to year and make the teachers look similar on paper.

    But you can factor this into the way teachers evaluated, have a system for teachers to identify and report problem students which will then be factored into the end of year reviews.

    In theory, yes. But you have teachers with different standards. To some, most kids are troublemakers or idiots. To others, most kids are good kids at heart who just need a chance.

    Also, many administrators and people in authority are "good ol' boys" [bare with me, I'm from the South] who have been around for awhile when many of them should never have started.

    Yes but when you get down to it people will always be the one problem with objectively evaluating people. And almost everyone agrees that the system needs to be reworked, its just that nobody can agree exactly how.

    image.php?type=sigpic&userid=38624&dateline=1248802110
  • HunterHunter Chemist with a heart of Au Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MagnumCT wrote: »
    Hunter wrote: »
    MagnumCT wrote: »
    Hunter wrote: »
    People in state hospital settings vs in group homes vs assisted living vs prison. People are raging alcoholics or people are in 12 step programs and not drinking. People not having their children due to abuse or unfit living conditions vs people have their children and are doing better.

    Good enough for you?

    Seriously? Are you for real?

    Answer one question for me, are you perhaps within your 1st to 3rd semester of college?

    EDIT: Also, do you know what the term 'metric' means? Maybe mile-stone or goal? Accomplishment? Pass-fail?

    OK, so the social worker is given thirty cases and is judged according to how their clients are doing, alcoholics are now drinking less or families are now less abusive, etc.

    How does this have anything to do with how well they do on their chemistry test? You've given me a test of how well you can judge a person who's job is to deal with people with problems. A teacher's job, theoretically, is to teach students difficult concepts. I'm missing the connection. I'm also curious on how either of these things are comparable to mislabeled chemicals.

    Once again you downplay what profession X does and overly simplify it and then inflate what a teacher does.

    This is the thing. This here. It's what you're doing wrong.

    No I'm not. Read this, this right here: TEACHERS ARE EXPECTED TO COMPENSATE FOR LOUSY PARENTING. They are expected to do this by "getting kids to care." I am not saying this. I am not arguing this. If it makes you happy, I say "fuck teachers." I'm just curious how you can measure the quality of people whose job description is "teach chemistry" when it's a complete crapshoot as to whether you get people who actually want to learn how to do chemistry.

    Improved standardized testing that is randomized based on subject and level specifically focusing on essay and comprehension more than multiple choice/right or wrong. In class evaluations by other teaching professionals. Parent and guardian evaluations. Things done outside of the classroom with students. College acceptance levels in the school. Successful graduation rates. SAT scores. Tracking students and how they perform after leaving that school system.

    Or something. Anything. Not just "it's hard, so let's just throw money at it for the children".

  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    You know what I am incredibly tired of?

    The egregious misconception that the south is full of idiots

    reposig.jpg
  • ZoelZoel Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    what about your educational background makes you wish a teacher ever did not teach to the test

    lets jump in the real here

    you want teachers to teach you how to test because that has a direct result on how much fucking money you get when you are done with school

    jesus fuck

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Hunter wrote: »
    Veretas wrote: »
    I am down with an evaluation system for teachers to give incentive for teachers to actually, you know, teach. But I can't think of any proper way to do it that wouldn't either be exploited into oblivion or be a broken mess all together.

    Teachers who go that extra mile should be rewarded.

    Exactly. A merit based system.

    Setting it up is hard, which apparently means impossible and we should just do nothing because kids don't eat breakfast and 60 hours a week or something.

    I'm totally open to a merit based system

    as soon as anyone in the world proposes one that is workable

    You have to start somewhere. You cannot let the current trend of poor test scores and poor graduation rates especially in underprivileged communities continue.

    I agree completely

    it's just that

    1) I don't think the supposed epidemic of teacher incompetence is a significant part of the problem

    Well I do so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    2) I haven't seen a workable method for evaluating teacher performance that doesn't incentivize cheating or narrow "sponge teaching" with no focus on critical thinking

    How much of any of these suggestions have even been tried? Who knows what's workable and what's not?
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    3) There's a much bigger fucking problem here and it's the funding structure

    A metrics system that increases the value of quality teaching and eliminates the waste that is bad teachers would address this to a point, no?

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • futilityfutility Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2010
    Schools love "problem" children that they can demand be put on Ritalin or Prozac or whatever. It's pretty much their solution to everything. It's pretty horrible.

    Also, just because it's relevant:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U


    If I told you I'll give you $1 for every pencil you give me and $2 broken pencil you give me and you have 10 pencils, 2 of which are already broken; How many broken pencils will I receive?

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