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"Plagiarism" (PA et al., 2010)

1356

Posts

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    I am a graduate student, and

    1) I had to sit through a lecture on plagiarism before attending any classes.
    2) I had to sign an agreement that I understood that there was a 0 tolerance policy on plagiarism and that if I was caught with any uncited work in a paper I would be immediately expelled.
    3) Every syllabus explicitly restates that plagiarism is unacceptable in all circumstances and will result in immediate expulsion.

    sure, but do you think a student from taiwan knows what the word "plaigiarism" even means?

    If they can't read and write at a level expected by the school then they shouldn't be in the program.

    It seems to me that it should be the school's responsibility in highlighting these kinds of things, especially to international students. That is what student orientation is for - to prepare the students. I also feel that it is the school's responsibility to research and comprehend whatever cultural barriers there may be for incoming international students so they are able to appropriately orient said students.

    At what point can the school say they have successfully oriented its students, and that the inability of certain students (international or otherwise) to adhere to the school's standards are entirely on the students' shoulders?

    And when you say "these kinds of things," are you including all school policies under that umbrella, or just policies regarding academic integrity? If a student hails from a country where actions that would violate policies regarding harassment are considered socially acceptable, would the student also merit lenient treatment for violating said policies?

    The school has a responsibility to make their students aware of their policies, especially ones that can directly lead to failure or expulsion. And yes I mean all such policies. Every single one. Plagiarism and attendance policies are two important ones I can think of.

    Perhaps a school can get away with fine printing their policies on the student handbook for domestic students. I never had an orientation that explicitly stated these policies to me but I was fine. If the school had an in depth orientation explaining these policies and perhaps requires the student to sign acknowledging that they understood the policy. At that point I would say the school was diligent in their preparation The school has a responsibility to make their students aware of their policies, especially ones that can directly lead to failure or expulsion. And yes I mean all such policies. Every single one. Plagiarism and attendance policies are two important ones I can think of.

    Perhaps a school can get away with fine printing their policies on the student handbook for domestic students. I never had an orientation that explicitly stated these policies to me but I was fine. If the school had an in depth orientation explaining these policies and perhaps requires the student to sign acknowledging that they understood the policy. At that point I would say the school was diligent enough in their student preparation.

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  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    This is an engineering class, though. They could very well be an expert in engineering, without ever learning the word "plagairism" or a lot of other words that would be in a legal contract.

    Professionals need to uphold professional standards. I'm not sure it is the job of the school to teach an international student how to interact with the world on a professional level, or how to not steal. That's a basic level of competency.

    It's not just a matter of "how not to steal", though- it's a cultural difference. It's considered perfectly OK to harvest all the information and content that you need from other sources- as long as you rearrange the words a bit. Despite the fact that, in an engineering paper, people are much more interested in the content than in the way you say it. I'd say it's definitely part of the school's job to help international students understand these kinds of distinctions.

  • hippofanthippofant Helping Mario save Peach. Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    A 0 for plagiarism? Man, your schools were pussies. My university (for undergrad) gave out -100% for plagiarism.

    One of the major problems with catching plagiarism/cheating in university is that it's so decentralized. In high school, you're stuck with the same teacher for a year. Often it'll be even more than a year. And even then, all your teachers likely know each other and a good number of them probably talk with each other about their students. In university though... I mean, for all you know, this could be the 4th time this has happened with this student, having occurred once in each of three other courses, and each TA just decided to exercise their own whatever or each prof decided to cut it off at the pass, and it never got escalated to a faculty/university level, because each course has like... 3 or 4 assignments, at most.

    I mean, as grad students, we all bear a certain amount of mistrust towards our university administrations, having regularly been fucked by them for up to a decade or more, but I don't think you should be handling this yourself. That is not to say that the university will handle it properly, but there's no way a single TA or professor can, if any sort of conditional leniency is to be applied.


    I'll also add, as a high school tutor, I wish kids here WOULD memorize more. Nobody knows how to do anything with fractions or their times-tables because they figure they can just use a calculator. Then they get to trigonometry and everything they do is fractions and multiplications and they shit a brick, because as it turns out, not only is using a calculator slow, but it can actually be pretty hard to punch in a complicated formula with a lot of fractions properly. (Same with constantly looking up elements and their atomic masses on the periodic table.)

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    I'm in a grad program and haven't gotten so much as a light reminder from a professor about plagiarism and its results.

    What is your area of study? My program is in a school that publishes a lot of high-level academic studies and papers, and the program itself involves a lot of writing as the post-degree track will (likely) involve a lot of original research, writing, and publishing.
    Education. I'm in a program that is fairly famous in the field for its research on special education and cognitive sciences. And we write a lot of papers, some of which get published online.

    I think they just assume we know how much trouble we're in if we try to plagiarize.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    This is an engineering class, though. They could very well be an expert in engineering, without ever learning the word "plagairism" or a lot of other words that would be in a legal contract.

    Professionals need to uphold professional standards. I'm not sure it is the job of the school to teach an international student how to interact with the world on a professional level, or how to not steal. That's a basic level of competency.

    It's not just a matter of "how not to steal", though- it's a cultural difference. It's considered perfectly OK to harvest all the information and content that you need from other sources- as long as you rearrange the words a bit. Despite the fact that, in an engineering paper, people are much more interested in the content than in the way you say it. I'd say it's definitely part of the school's job to help international students understand these kinds of distinctions.

    That's what orientation is for.

    It really depends on the program. I would expect my university to kick someone out that turned in plagiarized work. It does all of their other students a disservice if they don't uphold their academic standards.

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  • kdrudykdrudy Registered User
    edited December 2010
    Nearly a decade removed from college, thinking about it now a zero tolerance policy for plagiarism sounds absurd. Should you have to redo work or even fail classes for plagiarism? Sure. Expulsion for anything short of a pattern of plagiarism seems like overkill.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    But depending on your school, turning her in could pretty much ruin her academic career and, by extension, her career down the line. If you're overly lenient and it turns out she's an evil serial-plagiarist, the worst that happens is she slacks off in school, graduates while learning nothing, and gets screwed when she enters the work force and realizes she doesn't actually know anything because she's a cheating fucker.

    That situation makes the school look bad, as they generated a student that a) probably can't write at an acceptable professional level and b) thinks that plagiarizing work is okay.

    While this might not necessarily matter for a second-tier school, more competitive schools and programs that generate a lot of research and publications live and die by their reputations. This is particularly true of smaller, more specific degree programs where reputation is everything.

    I wasn't really endorsing ignoring all cases of plagiarism ever, nor even in this case of pretending it didn't happen. I really don't think that if a few plagiarists slip through the ranks, a school is going to suddenly look terrible.

    Honestly, I think there are far worse problems with image at top-tier schools with, say, legacy admissions being spoiled-brat fuckoffs who only earn their degrees because daddy has a building named after him.

    Anyway, I was just saying what I would do. If the girl in question keeps plagiarizing, she's going to pretty quickly run into one of the GRARRR RIGHTEOUS JUSTICE types like are in this thread, and she'll be toast. In the meantime, maybe I could turn her offense into a learning experience instead of a death sentence.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    hippofant wrote: »
    I'll also add, as a high school tutor, I wish kids here WOULD memorize more. Nobody knows how to do anything with fractions or their times-tables because they figure they can just use a calculator. Then they get to trigonometry and everything they do is fractions and multiplications and they shit a brick, because as it turns out, not only is using a calculator slow, but it can actually be pretty hard to punch in a complicated formula with a lot of fractions properly. (Same with constantly looking up elements and their atomic masses on the periodic table.)

    Isn't the atomic mass liste.. wait... how.. what the fuck?

    Unfortunately, those kids generally will be the ditch diggers of tomorrow and there's not much you can do if they can't grasp concepts like looking at a chart and finding a number that matches your element when it's listed on the fucking chart.

    Irregular numbers can go fuck a dick when they're put into math classes and examples just to be a giant pain in the dick in problem solving rather than drive home the point the method to solving the equation.

    I had a math teacher that gave us every single fucking problem that dealt with irregular fractions. Listen, I can find the limit of that function using whichever method you want, but just leave out the weird ass fractions like 1/672, please? Thanks. Love Bowen.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2010
    kdrudy wrote: »
    Nearly a decade removed from college, thinking about it now a zero tolerance policy for plagiarism sounds absurd. Should you have to redo work or even fail classes for plagiarism? Sure. Expulsion for anything short of a pattern of plagiarism seems like overkill.

    Zero tolerance policies are almost invariably terrible.

    One might say I have zero tolerance for them.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    I'll also add, as a high school tutor, I wish kids here WOULD memorize more. Nobody knows how to do anything with fractions or their times-tables because they figure they can just use a calculator. Then they get to trigonometry and everything they do is fractions and multiplications and they shit a brick, because as it turns out, not only is using a calculator slow, but it can actually be pretty hard to punch in a complicated formula with a lot of fractions properly. (Same with constantly looking up elements and their atomic masses on the periodic table.)

    Isn't the atomic mass liste.. wait... how.. what the fuck?

    Unfortunately, those kids generally will be the ditch diggers of tomorrow and there's not much you can do if they can't grasp concepts like looking at a chart and finding a number that matches your element when it's listed on the fucking chart.

    Irregular numbers can go fuck a dick when they're put into math classes and examples just to be a giant pain in the dick in problem solving rather than drive home the point the method to solving the equation.

    I had a math teacher that gave us every single fucking problem that dealt with irregular fractions. Listen, I can find the limit of that function using whichever method you want, but just leave out the weird ass fractions like 1/672, please? Thanks. Love Bowen.

    No, hippofant is saying that kids should memorize the periodic table so they don't have to refer to it at all.

    Which I totally disagree with. In some fields, a good memory is essential. Doctor? Lawyer? Stand up comedian? You need a good memory. For many others though it is a bonus. Does it suggest impaired cognitive processing if I just can't remember the atomic weight of molybdenum? Can't I possibly be just as intelligent and productive as someone who can remember the entire periodic table without looking at it?

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  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    "Cultural gap", aside, academic plagiarism isn't acceptable in Taiwan either. So that's not it.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    I'll also add, as a high school tutor, I wish kids here WOULD memorize more. Nobody knows how to do anything with fractions or their times-tables because they figure they can just use a calculator. Then they get to trigonometry and everything they do is fractions and multiplications and they shit a brick, because as it turns out, not only is using a calculator slow, but it can actually be pretty hard to punch in a complicated formula with a lot of fractions properly. (Same with constantly looking up elements and their atomic masses on the periodic table.)

    Isn't the atomic mass liste.. wait... how.. what the fuck?

    Unfortunately, those kids generally will be the ditch diggers of tomorrow and there's not much you can do if they can't grasp concepts like looking at a chart and finding a number that matches your element when it's listed on the fucking chart.

    Irregular numbers can go fuck a dick when they're put into math classes and examples just to be a giant pain in the dick in problem solving rather than drive home the point the method to solving the equation.

    I had a math teacher that gave us every single fucking problem that dealt with irregular fractions. Listen, I can find the limit of that function using whichever method you want, but just leave out the weird ass fractions like 1/672, please? Thanks. Love Bowen.

    Really, though, by the time you get into the real world, you're not going to be adding numbers in your head or working with nice, neat fractions. If your job involves math, the math is going to be done via calculator, or via simulations software, or completely behind-the-scenes and you will never even see the calculations being performed.

    Learning these kinds of methods isn't important because you'll actually be hand-solving differential equations all day long. And knowing how to add or multiply or deal with fractions isn't important because you'll be trapped in a room without a calculator and will need to figure out 247 x 78/33 by hand. It's important to know these things because it's hard to reliably use the tools available without some idea of what's going on in the background. And it's hard to see if the answers look correct if you have no clue how the answers were generated.

    Hell, most of my later math classes didn't even have you solve problems so much as set up the equations you'd need to use. That's the important part, as far as the real world is concerned.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    I'll also add, as a high school tutor, I wish kids here WOULD memorize more. Nobody knows how to do anything with fractions or their times-tables because they figure they can just use a calculator. Then they get to trigonometry and everything they do is fractions and multiplications and they shit a brick, because as it turns out, not only is using a calculator slow, but it can actually be pretty hard to punch in a complicated formula with a lot of fractions properly. (Same with constantly looking up elements and their atomic masses on the periodic table.)

    Isn't the atomic mass liste.. wait... how.. what the fuck?

    Unfortunately, those kids generally will be the ditch diggers of tomorrow and there's not much you can do if they can't grasp concepts like looking at a chart and finding a number that matches your element when it's listed on the fucking chart.

    Irregular numbers can go fuck a dick when they're put into math classes and examples just to be a giant pain in the dick in problem solving rather than drive home the point the method to solving the equation.

    I had a math teacher that gave us every single fucking problem that dealt with irregular fractions. Listen, I can find the limit of that function using whichever method you want, but just leave out the weird ass fractions like 1/672, please? Thanks. Love Bowen.

    No, hippofant is saying that kids should memorize the periodic table so they don't have to refer to it at all.

    Which I totally disagree with. In some fields, a good memory is essential. Doctor? Lawyer? Stand up comedian? You need a good memory. For many others though it is a bonus. Does it suggest impaired cognitive processing if I just can't remember the atomic weight of molybdenum? Can't I possibly be just as intelligent and productive as someone who can remember the entire periodic table without looking at it?

    I used to have the atomic numbers and masses of the more common elements all committed to memory, which was good for doing assignments or taking tests in chem class. Outside of that, not so much useful at all.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »

    No, hippofant is saying that kids should memorize the periodic table so they don't have to refer to it at all.

    Which I totally disagree with. In some fields, a good memory is essential. Doctor? Lawyer? Stand up comedian? You need a good memory. For many others though it is a bonus. Does it suggest impaired cognitive processing if I just can't remember the atomic weight of molybdenum? Can't I possibly be just as intelligent and productive as someone who can remember the entire periodic table without looking at it?

    Ah well, then yes I agree with you. Memorization of the PToE is pretty ... I won't say worthless but it's not exactly necessary. I've met some pretty talented chemists who probably couldn't tell me which of the rare earth metals were synthetic off the top of their head.

  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    ElJeffe wrote: »

    Really, though, by the time you get into the real world, you're not going to be adding numbers in your head or working with nice, neat fractions. If your job involves math, the math is going to be done via calculator, or via simulations software, or completely behind-the-scenes and you will never even see the calculations being performed.

    Learning these kinds of methods isn't important because you'll actually be hand-solving differential equations all day long. And knowing how to add or multiply or deal with fractions isn't important because you'll be trapped in a room without a calculator and will need to figure out 247 x 78/33 by hand. It's important to know these things because it's hard to reliably use the tools available without some idea of what's going on in the background. And it's hard to see if the answers look correct if you have no clue how the answers were generated.

    Hell, most of my later math classes didn't even have you solve problems so much as set up the equations you'd need to use. That's the important part, as far as the real world is concerned.

    Will you be my teacher forever?

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    I'll also add, as a high school tutor, I wish kids here WOULD memorize more. Nobody knows how to do anything with fractions or their times-tables because they figure they can just use a calculator. Then they get to trigonometry and everything they do is fractions and multiplications and they shit a brick, because as it turns out, not only is using a calculator slow, but it can actually be pretty hard to punch in a complicated formula with a lot of fractions properly. (Same with constantly looking up elements and their atomic masses on the periodic table.)

    Isn't the atomic mass liste.. wait... how.. what the fuck?

    Unfortunately, those kids generally will be the ditch diggers of tomorrow and there's not much you can do if they can't grasp concepts like looking at a chart and finding a number that matches your element when it's listed on the fucking chart.

    Irregular numbers can go fuck a dick when they're put into math classes and examples just to be a giant pain in the dick in problem solving rather than drive home the point the method to solving the equation.

    I had a math teacher that gave us every single fucking problem that dealt with irregular fractions. Listen, I can find the limit of that function using whichever method you want, but just leave out the weird ass fractions like 1/672, please? Thanks. Love Bowen.

    Really, though, by the time you get into the real world, you're not going to be adding numbers in your head or working with nice, neat fractions. If your job involves math, the math is going to be done via calculator, or via simulations software, or completely behind-the-scenes and you will never even see the calculations being performed.

    Learning these kinds of methods isn't important because you'll actually be hand-solving differential equations all day long. And knowing how to add or multiply or deal with fractions isn't important because you'll be trapped in a room without a calculator and will need to figure out 247 x 78/33 by hand. It's important to know these things because it's hard to reliably use the tools available without some idea of what's going on in the background. And it's hard to see if the answers look correct if you have no clue how the answers were generated.

    Hell, most of my later math classes didn't even have you solve problems so much as set up the equations you'd need to use. That's the important part, as far as the real world is concerned.

    This post is 657/657 truth.

    steam_sig.png
  • hippofanthippofant Helping Mario save Peach. Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    I'll also add, as a high school tutor, I wish kids here WOULD memorize more. Nobody knows how to do anything with fractions or their times-tables because they figure they can just use a calculator. Then they get to trigonometry and everything they do is fractions and multiplications and they shit a brick, because as it turns out, not only is using a calculator slow, but it can actually be pretty hard to punch in a complicated formula with a lot of fractions properly. (Same with constantly looking up elements and their atomic masses on the periodic table.)

    Isn't the atomic mass liste.. wait... how.. what the fuck?

    Unfortunately, those kids generally will be the ditch diggers of tomorrow and there's not much you can do if they can't grasp concepts like looking at a chart and finding a number that matches your element when it's listed on the fucking chart.

    Irregular numbers can go fuck a dick when they're put into math classes and examples just to be a giant pain in the dick in problem solving rather than drive home the point the method to solving the equation.

    I had a math teacher that gave us every single fucking problem that dealt with irregular fractions. Listen, I can find the limit of that function using whichever method you want, but just leave out the weird ass fractions like 1/672, please? Thanks. Love Bowen.

    No, hippofant is saying that kids should memorize the periodic table so they don't have to refer to it at all.

    Which I totally disagree with. In some fields, a good memory is essential. Doctor? Lawyer? Stand up comedian? You need a good memory. For many others though it is a bonus. Does it suggest impaired cognitive processing if I just can't remember the atomic weight of molybdenum? Can't I possibly be just as intelligent and productive as someone who can remember the entire periodic table without looking at it?

    I didn't mean memorize the periodic table, Christ. I meant, remembering hey, oxygen is atomic number 8 so and it's in period 2 so it always forms 2 bonds. Being able to do *that* makes Chemistry remarkably easier.

    And yes, you could possibly be just as intelligent and productive in Chemistry without knowing it. Except you have to invest way more time than you would have had to if you'd just memorized it, because you'll be looking that up in the periodic table every five goddamned minutes because you're always working with oxygen.

    Being able to do multiplication/fractions in your head doesn't just make doing *those* things easier... it makes doing every thing that involves *those* things easier. If you don't *get* fractions, when your teacher's doing trig on the board, you're going to be thinking about the fractions rather than the trig... and then you're not going to get trig either. If you can't remember your French verb conjugations, you're going to be looking that shit up at least once for every sentence in your French essay. If you can't remember how to assign and manage an array, you're going to be the world's slowest computer programmer. (Or write the weirdest, array-free programs.)

    Some things are fundamental to learning other things, and if you have to whip out a calculator every time you need to perform addition... well, good luck doing long multiplication.

  • fshavlakfshavlak Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Assuming your school works like mine, this is not your responsibility. Go to the professor with the situation and let him/her sort it out. You really shouldn't handle this situation without sending it up the food chain.

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    hippofant wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    I'll also add, as a high school tutor, I wish kids here WOULD memorize more. Nobody knows how to do anything with fractions or their times-tables because they figure they can just use a calculator. Then they get to trigonometry and everything they do is fractions and multiplications and they shit a brick, because as it turns out, not only is using a calculator slow, but it can actually be pretty hard to punch in a complicated formula with a lot of fractions properly. (Same with constantly looking up elements and their atomic masses on the periodic table.)

    Isn't the atomic mass liste.. wait... how.. what the fuck?

    Unfortunately, those kids generally will be the ditch diggers of tomorrow and there's not much you can do if they can't grasp concepts like looking at a chart and finding a number that matches your element when it's listed on the fucking chart.

    Irregular numbers can go fuck a dick when they're put into math classes and examples just to be a giant pain in the dick in problem solving rather than drive home the point the method to solving the equation.

    I had a math teacher that gave us every single fucking problem that dealt with irregular fractions. Listen, I can find the limit of that function using whichever method you want, but just leave out the weird ass fractions like 1/672, please? Thanks. Love Bowen.

    No, hippofant is saying that kids should memorize the periodic table so they don't have to refer to it at all.

    Which I totally disagree with. In some fields, a good memory is essential. Doctor? Lawyer? Stand up comedian? You need a good memory. For many others though it is a bonus. Does it suggest impaired cognitive processing if I just can't remember the atomic weight of molybdenum? Can't I possibly be just as intelligent and productive as someone who can remember the entire periodic table without looking at it?

    I didn't mean memorize the periodic table, Christ. I meant, remembering hey, oxygen is atomic number 8 so and it's in period 2 so it always forms 2 bonds. Being able to do *that* makes Chemistry remarkably easier.

    And yes, you could possibly be just as intelligent and productive in Chemistry without knowing it. Except you have to invest way more time than you would have had to if you'd just memorized it, because you'll be looking that up in the periodic table every five goddamned minutes because you're always working with oxygen.

    Being able to do multiplication/fractions in your head doesn't just make doing *those* things easier... it makes doing every thing that involves *those* things easier. If you don't *get* fractions, when your teacher's doing trig on the board, you're going to be thinking about the fractions rather than the trig... and then you're not going to get trig either. If you can't remember your French verb conjugations, you're going to be looking that shit up at least once for every sentence in your French essay. If you can't remember how to assign and manage an array, you're going to be the world's slowest computer programmer. (Or write the weirdest, array-free programs.)

    Some things are fundamental to learning other things, and if you have to whip out a calculator every time you need to perform addition... well, good luck doing long multiplication.

    Except that's not what you said. You explicitly said that kids should "memorize more" and that they should know atomic masses without referring to the periodic table. I explicitly disagree with that.

    Your new assertion - which I agree with - is that they should memorize how to interpret and apply the information on the periodic table. That is totally separate from memorizing the data on the periodic table itself.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    hippofant wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    I'll also add, as a high school tutor, I wish kids here WOULD memorize more. Nobody knows how to do anything with fractions or their times-tables because they figure they can just use a calculator. Then they get to trigonometry and everything they do is fractions and multiplications and they shit a brick, because as it turns out, not only is using a calculator slow, but it can actually be pretty hard to punch in a complicated formula with a lot of fractions properly. (Same with constantly looking up elements and their atomic masses on the periodic table.)

    Isn't the atomic mass liste.. wait... how.. what the fuck?

    Unfortunately, those kids generally will be the ditch diggers of tomorrow and there's not much you can do if they can't grasp concepts like looking at a chart and finding a number that matches your element when it's listed on the fucking chart.

    Irregular numbers can go fuck a dick when they're put into math classes and examples just to be a giant pain in the dick in problem solving rather than drive home the point the method to solving the equation.

    I had a math teacher that gave us every single fucking problem that dealt with irregular fractions. Listen, I can find the limit of that function using whichever method you want, but just leave out the weird ass fractions like 1/672, please? Thanks. Love Bowen.

    No, hippofant is saying that kids should memorize the periodic table so they don't have to refer to it at all.

    Which I totally disagree with. In some fields, a good memory is essential. Doctor? Lawyer? Stand up comedian? You need a good memory. For many others though it is a bonus. Does it suggest impaired cognitive processing if I just can't remember the atomic weight of molybdenum? Can't I possibly be just as intelligent and productive as someone who can remember the entire periodic table without looking at it?

    I didn't mean memorize the periodic table, Christ. I meant, remembering hey, oxygen is atomic number 8 so and it's in period 2 so it always forms 2 bonds. Being able to do *that* makes Chemistry remarkably easier.

    And yes, you could possibly be just as intelligent and productive in Chemistry without knowing it. Except you have to invest way more time than you would have had to if you'd just memorized it, because you'll be looking that up in the periodic table every five goddamned minutes because you're always working with oxygen.

    Being able to do multiplication/fractions in your head doesn't just make doing *those* things easier... it makes doing every thing that involves *those* things easier. If you don't *get* fractions, when your teacher's doing trig on the board, you're going to be thinking about the fractions rather than the trig... and then you're not going to get trig either. If you can't remember your French verb conjugations, you're going to be looking that shit up at least once for every sentence in your French essay. If you can't remember how to assign and manage an array, you're going to be the world's slowest computer programmer. (Or write the weirdest, array-free programs.)

    Some things are fundamental to learning other things, and if you have to whip out a calculator every time you need to perform addition... well, good luck doing long multiplication.
    This is the difference between simply having knowledge and proceduralizing it. Even if you know that Oxygen is in the second period, that it's a gas at room temperature, that it makes up 12(?)% of the atmosphere and what it typically forms bonds with, you're not necessarily going to be any better at actually using any of that information. Through repetition, though, you'll get to the point where Oxygen's 8 electrons are actually useful. You have to start with facts (though not necessarily all the individual facts) before you can proceduralize. If people are coming to you for help, they haven't proceduralized yet, regardless of whether they get it factually.

    It's in this process of proceduralization that the google-centric model of knowledge decentralization runs into some major issues.

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  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    The other this is, I don't remember that info because it's NOT essential to my day-to-day work tasks; that's why people forget it. If it actually comes up so often you look is up multiple times per day during the course of your job, pretty soon you won't be looking it up anymore.

    I agree that some level of memorization is 'necessary'. But for the memory/recall of information that's actually that commonly used in practice the memorization will be a product of work experience eventually anyway.

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  • kaliyamakaliyama Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    No, you don't have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt. At least some subset of ESL students are ambitious and want an American education without being able to complete it. The typical hard-work limited-intelligence grinder. The ones that come over are disproportionately monied and enjoy privilege and access. They're used to getting what they want.

    Cheating starts on the TOEFL and goes from there - which is likely why her english skills aren't up to snuff for this assignment. If she was copying another student's assignments I would be all for flunking. This is a mixture of being lazy and spoiled and shirking the english issue. I think you should explain it to her and then have her re-do the assignment in a way that doesn't violate ethics.

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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    fshavlak wrote: »
    Assuming your school works like mine, this is not your responsibility. Go to the professor with the situation and let him/her sort it out. You really shouldn't handle this situation without sending it up the food chain.

    If he is "Instructor of Record," it's his to deal with. But that has to be the first question: whose responsibility/authority is this?

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    kaliyama wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    No, you don't have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt. At least some subset of ESL students are ambitious and want an American education without being able to complete it. The typical hard-work limited-intelligence grinder. The ones that come over are disproportionately monied and enjoy privilege and access. They're used to getting what they want.

    Cheating starts on the TOEFL and goes from there - which is likely why her english skills aren't up to snuff for this assignment. If she was copying another student's assignments I would be all for flunking. This is a mixture of being lazy and spoiled and shirking the english issue. I think you should explain it to her and then have her re-do the assignment in a way that doesn't violate ethics.

    A lot of foreign students come here thanks entirely to a random lottery. You make it sound as though a significant amount of international students get to come here because they are rich. I'd like to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Maybe I am myopic based on my personal experiences but I know dozens of foreign ESL students from Europe where this isn't the case. I also don't know a single foreign college student for whom learning proper English isn't a priority.

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  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    kaliyama wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    No, you don't have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt. At least some subset of ESL students are ambitious and want an American education without being able to complete it. The typical hard-work limited-intelligence grinder. The ones that come over are disproportionately monied and enjoy privilege and access. They're used to getting what they want.

    Cheating starts on the TOEFL and goes from there - which is likely why her english skills aren't up to snuff for this assignment. If she was copying another student's assignments I would be all for flunking. This is a mixture of being lazy and spoiled and shirking the english issue. I think you should explain it to her and then have her re-do the assignment in a way that doesn't violate ethics.

    A lot of foreign students come here thanks entirely to a random lottery. You make it sound as though a significant amount of international students get to come here because they are rich. I'd like to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Maybe I am myopic based on my personal experiences but I know dozens of foreign ESL students from Europe where this isn't the case. I also don't know a single foreign college student for whom learning proper English isn't a priority.

    You have to prove your ability to pay for the education, meaning you must show that you (or a family member, or sponsor) have $X00,000 cash available (depending of course on the particular program costs and requirements of the school). In some cases you must put up the entire first years tuition amount in advance.

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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    kaliyama wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    No, you don't have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt. At least some subset of ESL students are ambitious and want an American education without being able to complete it. The typical hard-work limited-intelligence grinder. The ones that come over are disproportionately monied and enjoy privilege and access. They're used to getting what they want.

    Cheating starts on the TOEFL and goes from there - which is likely why her english skills aren't up to snuff for this assignment. If she was copying another student's assignments I would be all for flunking. This is a mixture of being lazy and spoiled and shirking the english issue. I think you should explain it to her and then have her re-do the assignment in a way that doesn't violate ethics.

    A lot of foreign students come here thanks entirely to a random lottery. You make it sound as though a significant amount of international students get to come here because they are rich. I'd like to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Maybe I am myopic based on my personal experiences but I know dozens of foreign ESL students from Europe where this isn't the case. I also don't know a single foreign college student for whom learning proper English isn't a priority.

    You have to prove your ability to pay for the education, meaning you must show that you (or a family member, or sponsor) have $X00,000 cash available (depending of course on the particular program costs and requirements of the school). In some cases you must put up the entire first years tuition amount in advance.

    You have the wrong number of digits there. I know plenty of people here that have shown far less. And I wouldn't call everyone who has enough money to fund a city/state university education for their child "rich," either. That's a very liberal definition of rich, even for me.

    steam_sig.png
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    kaliyama wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    No, you don't have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt. At least some subset of ESL students are ambitious and want an American education without being able to complete it. The typical hard-work limited-intelligence grinder. The ones that come over are disproportionately monied and enjoy privilege and access. They're used to getting what they want.

    Cheating starts on the TOEFL and goes from there - which is likely why her english skills aren't up to snuff for this assignment. If she was copying another student's assignments I would be all for flunking. This is a mixture of being lazy and spoiled and shirking the english issue. I think you should explain it to her and then have her re-do the assignment in a way that doesn't violate ethics.

    A lot of foreign students come here thanks entirely to a random lottery. You make it sound as though a significant amount of international students get to come here because they are rich. I'd like to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Maybe I am myopic based on my personal experiences but I know dozens of foreign ESL students from Europe where this isn't the case. I also don't know a single foreign college student for whom learning proper English isn't a priority.

    You have to prove your ability to pay for the education, meaning you must show that you (or a family member, or sponsor) have $X00,000 cash available (depending of course on the particular program costs and requirements of the school). In some cases you must put up the entire first years tuition amount in advance.

    You have the wrong number of digits there. I know plenty of people here that have shown far less. And I wouldn't call everyone who has enough money to fund a city/state university education for their child "rich," either. That's a very liberal definition of rich, even for me.

    No, I don't have the wrong number of digits there, or perhaps you missed the line "depending of course on the particular program costs and requirements of the school."

    International students pay the full tuition amount and are generally illegible for any kind of financial aid or scholarships. It's incredibly expensive.

    What "random lottery" are you talking about?

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    The other this is, I don't remember that info because it's NOT essential to my day-to-day work tasks; that's why people forget it. If it actually comes up so often you look is up multiple times per day during the course of your job, pretty soon you won't be looking it up anymore.

    I agree that some level of memorization is 'necessary'. But for the memory/recall of information that's actually that commonly used in practice the memorization will be a product of work experience eventually anyway.
    Forced memorization tends to result in what is called "fragile knowledge" or "naive knowledge". Knowledge that can only be approached from a specific direction to be accessed, or which is only one or two degraded links from disappearing into the brain never to be found again.

    Knowledge that is networked more organically through a lot of use is more robust, easier to get at when you need it, and much more accessible for use in creative problem solving.

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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    kaliyama wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    No, you don't have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt. At least some subset of ESL students are ambitious and want an American education without being able to complete it. The typical hard-work limited-intelligence grinder. The ones that come over are disproportionately monied and enjoy privilege and access. They're used to getting what they want.

    Cheating starts on the TOEFL and goes from there - which is likely why her english skills aren't up to snuff for this assignment. If she was copying another student's assignments I would be all for flunking. This is a mixture of being lazy and spoiled and shirking the english issue. I think you should explain it to her and then have her re-do the assignment in a way that doesn't violate ethics.

    A lot of foreign students come here thanks entirely to a random lottery. You make it sound as though a significant amount of international students get to come here because they are rich. I'd like to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Maybe I am myopic based on my personal experiences but I know dozens of foreign ESL students from Europe where this isn't the case. I also don't know a single foreign college student for whom learning proper English isn't a priority.

    You have to prove your ability to pay for the education, meaning you must show that you (or a family member, or sponsor) have $X00,000 cash available (depending of course on the particular program costs and requirements of the school). In some cases you must put up the entire first years tuition amount in advance.

    You have the wrong number of digits there. I know plenty of people here that have shown far less. And I wouldn't call everyone who has enough money to fund a city/state university education for their child "rich," either. That's a very liberal definition of rich, even for me.

    No, I don't have the wrong number of digits there, or perhaps you missed the line "depending of course on the particular program costs and requirements of the school."

    International students pay the full tuition amount and are generally illegible for any kind of financial aid or scholarships. It's incredibly expensive.

    What "random lottery" are you talking about?

    You have the wrong number of digits. You are suggesting that showing six digits worth of cash is a norm. Maybe in some rare cases a potential international student may need to show that amount, but "$X0,000" is a much more honest claim here, and even there the X can be a low number.

    I have heard different things about financial aid. I'm not sure what the policies are offhand but you are possibly correct on that count.

    I am referring to the lottery some nations employ in allowing people to apply for student visas (which then leads to the sponsorship process you are talking about).

    Regardless, my point was that even if a subset of international students have lived a life of luxury in their home land and have been diseased by it it is far from normal and probably less common than rich Americans who want to coast theough their education. It's a rather bigoted suggestion. And while I am sure such a subset does exist, I am equally sure it is small and that we should still lean toward giving the benefit of the doubt. Most international students aren't exiled princes that want their education handed to them and I find that idea very offensive.

    steam_sig.png
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    You have the wrong number of digits. You are suggesting that showing six digits worth of cash is a norm. Maybe in some rare cases a potential international student may need to show that amount, but "$X0,000" is a much more honest claim here, and even there the X can be a low number.

    I have heard different things about financial aid. I'm not sure what the policies are offhand but you are possibly correct on that count.

    I am referring to the lottery some nations employ in allowing people to apply for student visas (which then leads to the sponsorship process you are talking about).

    Regardless, my point was that even if a subset of international students have lived a life of luxury in their home land and have been diseased by it it is far from normal and probably less common than rich Americans who want to coast theough their education. It's a rather bigoted suggestion. And while I am sure such a subset does exist, I am equally sure it is small and that we should still lean toward giving the benefit of the doubt. Most international students aren't exiled princes that want their education handed to them and I find that idea very offensive.

    I guess perhaps some come over on "community scholarship" but I'd like to see your sources to show that it's more common than the simply wealthy studying in the U.S. I imagine it's significantly less common than you're implying.

    And as an example of the costs:

    At the local community college, in order to be accepted into an associates program, international students must show that either they or their sponsor have immediate access to the $50,000 (in liquid assets, mind you) that the 2-year degree + living expenses are estimated to cost.

    Community college.

    So, no, $X00,000 is not an exaggeration for a typical 4-year college.

    etxvv5.jpg
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    You have the wrong number of digits. You are suggesting that showing six digits worth of cash is a norm. Maybe in some rare cases a potential international student may need to show that amount, but "$X0,000" is a much more honest claim here, and even there the X can be a low number.

    I have heard different things about financial aid. I'm not sure what the policies are offhand but you are possibly correct on that count.

    I am referring to the lottery some nations employ in allowing people to apply for student visas (which then leads to the sponsorship process you are talking about).

    Regardless, my point was that even if a subset of international students have lived a life of luxury in their home land and have been diseased by it it is far from normal and probably less common than rich Americans who want to coast theough their education. It's a rather bigoted suggestion. And while I am sure such a subset does exist, I am equally sure it is small and that we should still lean toward giving the benefit of the doubt. Most international students aren't exiled princes that want their education handed to them and I find that idea very offensive.

    I guess perhaps some come over on "community scholarship" but I'd like to see your sources to show that it's more common than the simply wealthy studying in the U.S. I imagine it's significantly less common than you're implying.

    And as an example of the costs:

    At the local community college, in order to be accepted into an associates program, international students must show that either they or their sponsor have immediate access to the $50,000 (in liquid assets, mind you) that the 2-year degree + living expenses are estimated to cost.

    Community college.

    So, no, $X00,000 is not an exaggeration for a typical 4-year college.

    Okay all of this is off track. I actually don't care how rich an international student may be so for argument's sake I shall concede the point.

    Now the real question I have is: so what? Let's say a majority of international students have $750,000 sitting in the bank. Should we assume they are predisposed toward trying to game the education system rather than actually being interested in getting an education the proper way?

    steam_sig.png
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    Okay all of this is off track. I actually don't care how rich an international student may be so for argument's sake I shall concede the point.

    Now the real question I have is: so what? Let's say a majority of international students have $750,000 sitting in the bank. Should we assume they are predisposed toward trying to game the education system rather than actually being interested in getting an education the proper way?

    In my experience with upper-class students (including Americans)?

    ....

    Well, kinda.

  • hippofanthippofant Helping Mario save Peach. Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    The other this is, I don't remember that info because it's NOT essential to my day-to-day work tasks; that's why people forget it. If it actually comes up so often you look is up multiple times per day during the course of your job, pretty soon you won't be looking it up anymore.

    I agree that some level of memorization is 'necessary'. But for the memory/recall of information that's actually that commonly used in practice the memorization will be a product of work experience eventually anyway.
    Forced memorization tends to result in what is called "fragile knowledge" or "naive knowledge". Knowledge that can only be approached from a specific direction to be accessed, or which is only one or two degraded links from disappearing into the brain never to be found again.

    Knowledge that is networked more organically through a lot of use is more robust, easier to get at when you need it, and much more accessible for use in creative problem solving.

    I'm not advocating forcing kids to memorize things and that's all we do with it. I'm saying that memorization can be a means to an ends - I've seen far too many kids in upper-year high school who have to pull out their calculator to do 8487 * 1000 or 80000 / 100. That's time being wasted, particularly in a test situation, and furthermore, the inability to just see that makes certain things like factoring polynomials really hard, where you really want to be able to just see the common integral factors without having to use a calculator and check if every possible factor is divisible into every single coefficient.

    I'm not saying, hey, memorize what 84749 * 3492 is and never use it again. I'm saying, there are some bits of information that will constantly be reused, and memorization of those bits, whether explicit or implicit, is highly useful, but that often does not happen because of this idea that "Oh every kid has an iPhone nowadays, so they can just look it up" or "They can just use a calculator." Which, in itself, is a bit of a cheat anyways - if it's true that they could "just use a calculator" to do multiplication, then they could "just use a computer program" to do calculus, so screw it, let's not teach 'em any math!

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    hippofant wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    The other this is, I don't remember that info because it's NOT essential to my day-to-day work tasks; that's why people forget it. If it actually comes up so often you look is up multiple times per day during the course of your job, pretty soon you won't be looking it up anymore.

    I agree that some level of memorization is 'necessary'. But for the memory/recall of information that's actually that commonly used in practice the memorization will be a product of work experience eventually anyway.
    Forced memorization tends to result in what is called "fragile knowledge" or "naive knowledge". Knowledge that can only be approached from a specific direction to be accessed, or which is only one or two degraded links from disappearing into the brain never to be found again.

    Knowledge that is networked more organically through a lot of use is more robust, easier to get at when you need it, and much more accessible for use in creative problem solving.

    I'm not advocating forcing kids to memorize things and that's all we do with it. I'm saying that memorization can be a means to an ends - I've seen far too many kids in upper-year high school who have to pull out their calculator to do 8487 * 1000 or 80000 / 100. That's time being wasted, particularly in a test situation, and furthermore, the inability to just see that makes certain things like factoring polynomials really hard, where you really want to be able to just see the common integral factors without having to use a calculator and check if every possible factor is divisible into every single coefficient.

    I'm not saying, hey, memorize what 84749 * 3492 is and never use it again. I'm saying, there are some bits of information that will constantly be reused, and memorization of those bits, whether explicit or implicit, is highly useful, but that often does not happen because of this idea that "Oh every kid has an iPhone nowadays, so they can just look it up" or "They can just use a calculator." Which, in itself, is a bit of a cheat anyways - if it's true that they could "just use a calculator" to do multiplication, then they could "just use a computer program" to do calculus, so screw it, let's not teach 'em any math!
    But this gets back to the difference between factual knowledge and procedural knowledge. When you are memorizing things, you are trying to ingrain factual knowledge. If you practice doing things, you are proceduralizing it. Knowing that 8487 * 1000 = 8487000 won't help you solve 8487 *1100 without actually understanding what you are doing.

    I totally agree that being able to do basic math in your head (I consider most things up to and including single variable integration to be "basic") is hugely beneficial if you're going to be doing that stuff on a regular basis. But that's not a matter of memorization, that's a matter of practice. Straight memorization gives you a list of unconnected numbers that you can only apply in one way. That's not a useful way to approach something as varied as mathematics.

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  • Psycho Internet HawkPsycho Internet Hawk Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Speaking as someone who does a lot of teaching basic mathematics, the most basic procedural knowledge you have comes from a small set of memorized facts and rules. Like, for example, times tables, or integer placement. Finding patterns/rules and applying those to new problems you encounter is an important part of mathematics.

    Students who can memorize new rules and methods very fast will do well on problems that strictly follow those methods, but have no idea how to solve a problem that rearranges the concept. They'll be able to figure out that a square with height 5 and width 4 has an area of 20, but if given a square with an area of 20 and a height of 5 will have no idea how to figure out the width. Conversely, students who struggle to remember things and have to take their time will, by the time they've remembered the concepts they're learning, be able to apply it to multiple situations because they've had to come to a full understanding of the material for it to stick with them.

    Most people are naturally somewhere in-between, and a balance between memorization of concepts and the application of them is generally better because they are, in fact, related.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Most procedural knowledge is built on a backing of factual knowledge, yes.

    The trick is moving past the strict application of factual knowledge and onto full proceduralization smoothly and quickly. Because it becomes a matter of actually grasping the underlying formulae for multiplcation or simply accessing the factual times tables, which aren't going to help you much once you move outside the bounds of the numbers you'd memorized.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2010
    kaliyama wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    No, you don't have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt.

    Well, I suppose you don't have to give them the benefit of the doubt, but what is really being gained by going all wrath-of-God on any kind of transgression, whether it was malicious or not?

    Generally speaking, being in a position of power (be it TA, professor, cop, or internet forum mod) grants you the ability to make lots of decisions that affect people in myriad ways. Sometimes you have the opportunity to dramatically affect someone's life based on how you're choosing to handle some sort of transgression on their part. And being as harsh as the law/rules/policies allow isn't always the best decision.

    A typical student who slacks off and commits plagiarism of some sort is likely not a super-villain who plans to cheat his way through college. It is quite possible that simply getting caught, even with no real punishment, will be enough to scare them straight if you sell it right. ("I'll let you off if you re-write this properly, but keep in mind that virtually anyone else would see you kicked out of school.") Is seeing them expelled in any way superior to getting them to mend their ways?

    Now, if the policies are such that you, the TA, can get in trouble for not reporting the instances, then fuck 'em, their being given a second chance isn't worth you losing your job, or whatnot. But if you have the chance to treat someone kindly, sorta seems you should take it.

    As to memorization and all that jazz, memorizing certain facts can certainly be useful. I have a really strong memory when it comes to figures, and in virtually every job I've ever held, I've gotten hefty benefit out of memorizing some of the more common numbers I've come across, be it the price of a small fry and drink to the ID numbers on contracts I'm juggling as project manager. The capacity for memorization is extremely useful, and I don't think memorizing facts and figures in itself is a bad thing, and should be encouraged, as long as it's in conjunction with understanding what the hell it is you're memorizing.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    As to memorization and all that jazz, memorizing certain facts can certainly be useful. I have a really strong memory when it comes to figures, and in virtually every job I've ever held, I've gotten hefty benefit out of memorizing some of the more common numbers I've come across, be it the price of a small fry and drink to the ID numbers on contracts I'm juggling as project manager. The capacity for memorization is extremely useful, and I don't think memorizing facts and figures in itself is a bad thing, and should be encouraged, as long as it's in conjunction with understanding what the hell it is you're memorizing.
    I don't think detail memorization is inherently a bad thing at all. It's a natural outgrowth of working with specific information over and over again.

    The problem comes when you're actually trying to educate someone. An education built around detail memorization is not going to prepare the student for dealing with a fast changing employment environment, especially given the advent of internet searches for gathering information. Unfortunately, the memorization and restatement of facts is exactly where we're headed with the current push for standardized testing.

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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    As to memorization and all that jazz, memorizing certain facts can certainly be useful. I have a really strong memory when it comes to figures, and in virtually every job I've ever held, I've gotten hefty benefit out of memorizing some of the more common numbers I've come across, be it the price of a small fry and drink to the ID numbers on contracts I'm juggling as project manager. The capacity for memorization is extremely useful, and I don't think memorizing facts and figures in itself is a bad thing, and should be encouraged, as long as it's in conjunction with understanding what the hell it is you're memorizing.
    I don't think detail memorization is inherently a bad thing at all. It's a natural outgrowth of working with specific information over and over again.

    The problem comes when you're actually trying to educate someone. An education built around detail memorization is not going to prepare the student for dealing with a fast changing employment environment, especially given the advent of internet searches for gathering information. Unfortunately, the memorization and restatement of facts is exactly where we're headed with the current push for standardized testing.

    Which is one reason our education system is terrible.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    As to memorization and all that jazz, memorizing certain facts can certainly be useful. I have a really strong memory when it comes to figures, and in virtually every job I've ever held, I've gotten hefty benefit out of memorizing some of the more common numbers I've come across, be it the price of a small fry and drink to the ID numbers on contracts I'm juggling as project manager. The capacity for memorization is extremely useful, and I don't think memorizing facts and figures in itself is a bad thing, and should be encouraged, as long as it's in conjunction with understanding what the hell it is you're memorizing.
    I don't think detail memorization is inherently a bad thing at all. It's a natural outgrowth of working with specific information over and over again.

    The problem comes when you're actually trying to educate someone. An education built around detail memorization is not going to prepare the student for dealing with a fast changing employment environment, especially given the advent of internet searches for gathering information. Unfortunately, the memorization and restatement of facts is exactly where we're headed with the current push for standardized testing.

    Which is one reason our education system is terrible.
    And why most of the commonly cited avenues of "reform" are only going to make it worse.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
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