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[WARMACHINE & HORDES] Pipe Cleaners, Reimagined

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Posts

  • OtakuD00DOtakuD00D Too stupid to feel pain. San DiegoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Lights need to hit harder, too. It's ridiculous in some cases.

    makosig.jpg
  • BlaqueBlaque Registered User
    edited January 2011
    Satyrs for Circle are pretty niche. I like them, but I generally only take them as a second heavy. This is because they just don't hit as hard as Warpwolves will, nor can they take the hits (less DEF/ARM and less boxes does that). I stil think Gnarlhorns should have had Unyielding or more boxes or soemthing.

    I Shadowhorns are specifically better with Mohsar and eKaya myself. This is because fo two things:

    1) Mohsar has a damage buff that doesn't hurt the ability of the Shadowhorn to Leap (you can't hop if youc an't charge, you can't charge if you have Stone Skin). This, plus Mirage for extra movement, Pillars of Salt for garunteed super-throw damage and retaliation-blocking, as well as Sunhummaer dingy whatever you tossed up if its a warbeast or warjack for coming back, add-up to my liking of it with him.

    2) With eKaya, it again, has a non-Leap-denying damage buff (Forced Evolution) that also stacks with Virility for 9" throws. DEF 17 against charges helps against Reversal. Stelath against guns. And with the distance you can get out of leaping around, you get a lot of potential to mess with opponent's backlines during her feat turn.

    I think it works with Baldur, but honestly, since you can't put Virility on the Constructs, the beast lacks Pathfinder and it isn't too good a target for Stone Skin, I would look ot see what else you can take with him first.

    And stuff.

  • BlaqueBlaque Registered User
    edited January 2011
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    So, like just about every other light jack/beast that isn't an arcnode.

    I'd like to see how the game looked if there was a global -1 cost to all lights.
    Except in the Satyr's cases, they're heavies and cost heavy costs.

    Some Trollblood lights its debateable if that's a good idea (Axer, Impaler and Swamp Troll seem priced right. The rest could use it, though). Skorne ones save the Drake probably could do for one too.

    Pretty much three of four of the Circle ones I bet coudl be lowered and the world wouldn't end. The Gorax, however, is actually probably the best light in the game, so I wouldn't go so far as to say every single one needed it. That said, they felt the Deathjack and Avatar needed MAT 8, so take what you will I guess.

    And stuff.

  • OtakuD00DOtakuD00D Too stupid to feel pain. San DiegoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    ...BLAAAAAAQUE

    Good to have you here.

    My store has quite a few Menoth players. I've found the Shadowhorn to be pretty damn useful in infiltrating and dismantling their stupid bricks.

    makosig.jpg
  • BlaqueBlaque Registered User
    edited January 2011
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    ...BLAAAAAAQUE

    Good to have you here.

    Glad to be here. ^_^

    And as per usual, stuff.

  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Blaque wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    So, like just about every other light jack/beast that isn't an arcnode.

    I'd like to see how the game looked if there was a global -1 cost to all lights.
    Except in the Satyr's cases, they're heavies and cost heavy costs.

    Some Trollblood lights its debateable if that's a good idea (Axer, Impaler and Swamp Troll seem priced right. The rest could use it, though). Skorne ones save the Drake probably could do for one too.

    Pretty much three of four of the Circle ones I bet coudl be lowered and the world wouldn't end. The Gorax, however, is actually probably the best light in the game, so I wouldn't go so far as to say every single one needed it. That said, they felt the Deathjack and Avatar needed MAT 8, so take what you will I guess.

    And stuff.

    That shows you how much Circle I play against.

    Trolls totally got loving in regards to their lights, and I think they get a lot more out of tough than their heavies. Skorne, as far as I'm concerned, could stand to get -1pt to ALL or their beasts(save for Molik). They seem like the Protectorate's equivalent when it comes to beasts/jacks, but they're all 1 or 2 points more expensive and they don't get a Choir. The Drake is definitely head and shoulders above the Repenter, and the Repenter is pretty kickass.

    Save for arc nodes and a select few lights, (Renegade, Blaster, Buccaneer, Hunter; most troll lights, legion lesser bests) I think it'd be a good change.

  • BlaqueBlaque Registered User
    edited January 2011
    Titan Gladiators and Bronzeback Titans actaully are pretty appropriately cost. Note that the Bronzeback is pretty much able to trash absolutely anything in the game. Gladiators, likewise, give up some of the SPD Circle warbeasts enjoy for ARM, more wounds and simply more killing power.

    Also, Skorne does have a Choir, its called Paingivers, who give them more damage and free charges/slams/power attacks. So they don't get the ridiculous accuracy of Menites, but in exchange, Bronzebacks get P+S 18/19/19 on thier three MAT 7 base attacks, followed by a P+S 18 Head-Butt, and if the target ain't dead yet, can expect up to 5 FURY worth of attacks after that.

    Seriously, when ti comes to discounting warbeasts, Skorne isn't hurting too bad. I think the lackluster ones are the Cyclopses, Krea, and other heavies, myself.

    And again, Gorax actually was argued to be OP a bit during the FT. Take that as it will be I guess.

    And stuff.

  • General NemoGeneral Nemo Grand Poobah of Ancient Lurkers In the jungle the mighty jungleRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Hey! Let's talk about how awful Assault Kommandos are and my quest to make them work!

    So Assault Kommandos are pretty terrible. We know this. Let's talk about their finer points first!
    - Two initial melee attacks. Hey! They can kill light infantry pretty reliably, assuming they hit.
    - Gas Grenades! Pretty neat stuff, what with debuffing the enemy. You can throw them on your own shield-walling Kommandos to make them a little harder to hit against non-reach infantry and occasionally you'll hit something with low defense!
    - RNG 10, POW 10 guns! Good old fashioned guns. It's cool to shoot things with your core infantry.
    - Shield Wall. These dudes rarely die to blast damage
    - Immunity to Corrosion and Fire. Also, pretty cool! Stops Seraphs and other really annoying fire-based attacks from annihilating. They're also an excellent way to fuck up Bile Thralls and Bloat Thralls, what with their general apathy for their attacks!
    - Assault and Battery. Ranged attacks AND two initial melee attacks! That's pretty cool. A little bit of overkill against lightly armored targets, but more attacks are better when your stats are what they are...
    - Flamethrowers. Sprays rule. Nuff said.
    - They also give exactly 0 fucks about cloud effects, which is nice.

    And now we come to the only thing holding this unit back from becoming a staple in literally every list: Awful stats. While the Kommandos are awesome in concept, they fail to bring anything to the table that other cheaper units do far better. We'll go through each stat alone.

    SPD : They are a very nice 6. This makes me wonder why their DEF is so low when they are still reasonably fast.

    STR: Irrelevant

    MAT: 6 MAT is enough for me, honestly. I don't mind aa MAT 6 for core infantry, especially when you have Assault and Battery combined with Gas Grenades. Theoretically, this should be a fair stat for them.

    RAT: Are you kidding me? RAT 5 on a shooting unit? I wish someone would explain to me how these guys are supposed to hit anything reliably without standing still. Even if this were what you were intended to do, this would totally contradict the very clear design goal of "Shooting gas/guns and then charging." Insane. One point of RAT and they could hit average DEF 13 half the time. This would make them at least serviceable. As of now, this stat is what keeps them from being in my lists almost exclusively.

    DEF: You give them SPD 6 but DEF 12? Worthless. They die like flies to direct fire, even in shield wall, and can only survive with the help of Iron Flesh. Even in concealment their DEF is not very difficult to overcome. That one point of DEF would make them that much more fairly costed.

    ARM: With shield wall bringing them up to 18 from 14, I can't complain. Same as pole-wielding cousins the Iron Fang Pikemen.

    CMD : Irrelevant.

    So there it is. Those two stats are keeping them from seeing regular play anywhere, in my opinion. Now all this bitching gets us nowhere. How can we make them work?

    My answer for tonight? Good old fashioned Irusk. +2 MAT and RAT for one round? Yes please. Ultra Tough for one round? Sign me up. Iron Flesh? Fuck yes. Irusk seems to solve all these problems pretty roundly, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a good unit. I will be seeing this week how they stack up in comparison to similar units (Meaning units of similar cost and purpose).

  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Blaque wrote: »
    Also, Skorne does have a Choir, its called Paingivers, who give them more damage and free charges/slams/power attacks. So they don't get the ridiculous accuracy of Menites, but in exchange, Bronzebacks get P+S 18/19/19 on thier three MAT 7 base attacks, followed by a P+S 18 Head-Butt, and if the target ain't dead yet, can expect up to 5 FURY worth of attacks after that.

    Pain Givers, when I played Skorne, really didn't feel as useful as the Choir. Although, under eMorg, they had some pretty hilarious counter-charge potential.

  • BlaqueBlaque Registered User
    edited January 2011
    For offensive output, I think Paingivers are pretty comparable to the Choir. They let you push your warbeasts a shitload harder then you could normally do wtihout them, as well as crank them to similar offensive levels. The difference is that they don't give the defensive buffs, which I think is a big factor, admitedly.

    And stuff.

  • PMAversPMAvers You wouldn't have heard of it, anyway...Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    So, the rumor mill from people who got their copy of the new NQ was that both eCaine and Zerkova had theme forces.

    Apparently Zerkova stole her some Vanguards.

    Khador being able to run light 'jacks.

    THIS IS THE END TIMES

    persona4celestia.jpg
    COME FORTH, AMATERASU!
  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    does it make her not suck anymore?

  • tzeentchlingtzeentchling Dr. Doctor Oakland, CARegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Now, if only Zerkova had realized she actually wanted the arc-node light jacks....

  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    SJ wrote: »
    does it make her not suck anymore?

    Vanguards don't have arc nodes and we have not been absorbed by the Bizarro universe.

    So, no.

    twitter, github, resume/portfolio, if you like to play or host boardgames online, check out handtracker
  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Wait, Vanguards? Like, is that a merc 'Jack? I'm blanking here.

  • NechriahNechriah Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    That's not all! April releases have been previewed...somewhere. Then reposted on the PP boards. So probably take these with a grain of salt.
    WARMACHINE MKII
    PIP 31086 Arcane Tempest Gun Mages Box (resculpt) * TBD
    PIP 31089 Cygnar Charger Light Warjack (plastic) - $18.99
    PIP 32075 Protectorate of Menoth Flameguard Cleanser Officer Cleanser UA - $14.99
    PIP 32084 Protectorate of Menoth Repenter Light Warjack (plastic) - $18.99
    PIP 33077 Khador Gun Carriage Battle Engine - $84.99

    PIP 34081 Cryx Revenant Crew Rifleman Weapon Attachment - $5.99
    PIP 34090 Cryx Defilers Bonejack (2 models) (plastic) - $19.99
    PIP 35025 Retribution Destor Thane Cavalry Solo (1 Model) - $29.99
    PIP 35038 Retribution of Scyrah Heavy Rifle Team - TBD
    PIP 35041 Retribution of Scyrah House Shyeel Artificer Battle Mage Solo - TBD

    HORDES MKII
    PIP 72055 Circle Orboros Gorax (resculpt) - TBD

    If these are the real deal, colour me excited. I've never used a Gorax or Gun Mages because I loathe the models, so I'm chuffed at the thought of them having nice sculpts.

    Dating is like playing Snake, you keep accumulating emotional baggage that trails after you and it never goes away and sooner or later you just plough head first into it and die
  • kaortikaorti Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    So guys, trolls. How do I kill them?

    One of the better players at my FLGS plays trolls, and he took my Sloan list apart last Friday. I don't have much experience fighting hordes, and even less experience fighting heavy synergy factions like trolls and menoth. What sort of mindset should I approach these games with? Which models should I go for first? How can I tell what his lists want to do?

    edit: Just my luck, I finished the paint job on my Gun Mages just a couple of weeks ago. A resculpt now? :(

  • PMAversPMAvers You wouldn't have heard of it, anyway...Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    SJ wrote: »
    Wait, Vanguards? Like, is that a merc 'Jack? I'm blanking here.

    Yeah, it's easily my favorite light 'jack. It's a Llael design.

    vanguard.png

    EDIT: Holy carp, April is the Happy Month. :D DESTOR THANE!

    Definitely curious to what those "Heavy Rifles" bring. I mean, HG Riflemen are already pretty sweet...

    persona4celestia.jpg
    COME FORTH, AMATERASU!
  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I hate that the insinuation there is that Cygnar isn't a synergy heavy army, that makes me :(

    Hunters are a good best friend since all of their shit is medium based, but honestly I don't think Sloan's a good match up against trolls in general.

    e: oh yeah, assault with the shield gun right? That guy's awesome.

  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    PIP 32075 Protectorate of Menoth Flameguard Cleanser Officer Cleanser UA - $14.99

    God dammit, these are brand new pants!

  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    cleansers are the coolest menoth unit

    flamethrowers own

  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    PIP 31086 Arcane Tempest Gun Mages Box (resculpt) * TBD

    God dammit, these are brand new pants!

    The object is different, but the sentiment is the same.

    twitter, github, resume/portfolio, if you like to play or host boardgames online, check out handtracker
  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I am super excited to see what they add to the squad. Better RAT? SP10? Gunfighter?

    all three?

  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I'm just happy that Cryx is getting a Weapon Attachment for their worst unit.

    twitter, github, resume/portfolio, if you like to play or host boardgames online, check out handtracker
  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    admanb wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    PIP 31086 Arcane Tempest Gun Mages Box (resculpt) * TBD

    God dammit, these are brand new pants!

    The object is different, but the sentiment is the same.

    Hopefully they're still single piece models :P

  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    admanb wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    PIP 31086 Arcane Tempest Gun Mages Box (resculpt) * TBD

    God dammit, these are brand new pants!

    The object is different, but the sentiment is the same.

    I'm wondering why Cygnar, who has some of the nicest looking but worst performing models, keeps getting shitty rules and more resculpts. Gun Mages look pretty nice as they are to me.
    admanb wrote: »
    I'm just happy that Cryx is getting a Weapon Attachment for their worst unit.

    One of these days, I'm going to make a pSkarre list filled with nothing but Drudges and Revenants. I will then proceed to beat someone using a Cryx attrition list.

  • kaortikaorti Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    SJ wrote: »
    I hate that the insinuation there is that Cygnar isn't a synergy heavy army, that makes me :(

    Hunters are a good best friend since all of their shit is medium based, but honestly I don't think Sloan's a good match up against trolls in general.

    e: oh yeah, assault with the shield gun right? That guy's awesome.

    The hunters work ok, but Janissa Stonetide throwing up that wall makes shooting unreliable. Should I be focus firing on the beasts? Or should I try to split a Hunter off to go after support solos?

    I love Cygnar, but I think Admanb was right when he said:
    admanb wrote: »
    Cygnar synergy is what our Warcasters have... with themselves and their support models.

    Though I might modify that to say that Cygnar synergy flows almost exclusively from the Warcaster. We can't do the crazy cross-buffing that some factions can.

  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I'm not familiar with her spell list, are you talking about the wall template spell? Generally against hordes if you can kill off their beasts you can shut down a lot of their game plan but with Trolls you need some big-ass guns to put their stuff down with. What's your list?

  • kaortikaorti Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Capitan Kara Sloan
    -Defender
    -Hunter
    -Hunter
    Reinholdt
    Rangers
    Stormblades
    Min Trencher Commandos
    -3x Trencher Commando Scattergunner

    I'ts my all-comers ranged list. I like it because everything can use Sloan's feat to good effect, and both the commandos and the stormblades make good melee units when things get a bit tight.

    My opponent was running:

    Calandra Truthsayer
    -Impaler
    -Bomber
    -Earthborn Dire troll
    -Runebearer
    Janissa Stonetide
    Nyss Huters

  • OtakuD00DOtakuD00D Too stupid to feel pain. San DiegoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    admanb wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »

    PIP 35038 Retribution of Scyrah Heavy Rifle Team - TBD

    God dammit, these are brand new pants!

    The object is different, but the sentiment is the same.

    makosig.jpg
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    kaorti wrote: »
    Capitan Kara Sloan
    -Defender
    -Hunter
    -Hunter
    Reinholdt
    Rangers
    Stormblades
    Min Trencher Commandos
    -3x Trencher Commando Scattergunner

    I'ts my all-comers ranged list. I like it because everything can use Sloan's feat to good effect, and both the commandos and the stormblades make good melee units when things get a bit tight.

    My opponent was running:

    Calandra Truthsayer
    -Impaler
    -Bomber
    -Earthborn Dire troll
    -Runebearer
    Janissa Stonetide
    Nyss Huters

    I wouldn't feel too bad about losing to that list; that's the kind of thing I would expect to see in the final four of an SR2011 tournament.

    I'm going to bed now, but I'll try to put some thoughts up tomorrow.

    twitter, github, resume/portfolio, if you like to play or host boardgames online, check out handtracker
  • General NemoGeneral Nemo Grand Poobah of Ancient Lurkers In the jungle the mighty jungleRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Battle Report time!
    Synopsis: Assault Kommandos win the day! After aiming a Strangling Gas Bomb shot at Calaban, I hit! Woohoo! This allowed Beast to kill the scaly bastard even when rolling shittacular dice!
    Other highlights from the unit also include damaging a Wrassler pretty well with the help of Battle Lust as well as gunning down some a couple Gatormen with some good dice rolls. Hurray! Also, I set Calaban on fire with a flamethrower!

    The list:

    Kommandant Irusk
    - Beast 09
    - War Dog
    Assault Kommandos x10
    - Flamethrower
    Doom Reavers
    -Greylord Escort
    Man-O-War Kovnik
    -Destroyer

  • susansusan Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Matev, many thanks for a good instruction game! Learned much, had fun, I shall now be a better player from this point forward :) .

    *starts prematurely planning his PAX tournament list*

    2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion
    2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Battle Report time!
    Synopsis: Assault Kommandos win the day! After aiming a Strangling Gas Bomb shot at Calaban, I hit! Woohoo! This allowed Beast to kill the scaly bastard even when rolling shittacular dice!
    Other highlights from the unit also include damaging a Wrassler pretty well with the help of Battle Lust as well as gunning down some a couple Gatormen with some good dice rolls. Hurray! Also, I set Calaban on fire with a flamethrower!

    I have to say, Fire is terribly underconsidered condition. As I've told just about everyone I've ever met, fire is very capable of just outright killing otherwise unharmed warcasters on good rolls. Warlocks have a different time of it, seeing as they lean towards lower armor than warcasters, but can transfer that damage away if they've held onto their fury. This does, however, have the fortunate side effect of dealing up to 10 damage to a warbeast per turn.

  • RainfallRainfall Subcommander Argon CityRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Fire is absolutely brutal and anyone who argues otherwise is stupid.

    Corrosion, on the other hand, completely sucks, because 1 damage/turn can be completely ignored on practically everything aside from 1-wound infantry, and if you're hitting 1-wound infantry with something that causes corrosion, they're probably dead already. If it was d3 damage, it would be WAY better.

  • MatevMatev Hugs? Hugs are for nerdsRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    susan wrote: »
    Matev, many thanks for a good instruction game! Learned much, had fun, I shall now be a better player from this point forward :) .

    *starts prematurely planning his PAX tournament list*

    Glad you enjoyed it man, I hope it was a good start to the scene and look forward to having my vengenace! *shakes his fist.*

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Spoiler:
  • Son of MakutaSon of Makuta Registered User
    edited January 2011
    Rainfall wrote: »
    Fire is absolutely brutal and anyone who argues otherwise is stupid.

    Corrosion, on the other hand, completely sucks, because 1 damage/turn can be completely ignored on practically everything aside from 1-wound infantry, and if you're hitting 1-wound infantry with something that causes corrosion, they're probably dead already. If it was d3 damage, it would be WAY better.

    QFT. Exception: Bile Thralls vs Shield Wall.

  • JonahtkeJonahtke Registered User
    edited January 2011
    Been a while since I've gotten around to posting, however I've been steadily painting away at my siege army. I am finally finishing up my rangers box and am glad it's over. The green's and khaki's I chose to use were so thin it has made them the most time consuming models I've done so far.

  • MatevMatev Hugs? Hugs are for nerdsRegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    PIP 32075 Protectorate of Menoth Flameguard Cleanser Officer Cleanser UA - $14.99


    Oh.....oh god......I might be able to justify taking Cleansers.... <3

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Spoiler:
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2011
    kaorti wrote: »
    Capitan Kara Sloan
    -Defender
    -Hunter
    -Hunter
    Reinholdt
    Rangers
    Stormblades
    Min Trencher Commandos
    -3x Trencher Commando Scattergunner

    I'ts my all-comers ranged list. I like it because everything can use Sloan's feat to good effect, and both the commandos and the stormblades make good melee units when things get a bit tight.

    My opponent was running:

    Calandra Truthsayer
    -Impaler
    -Bomber
    -Earthborn Dire troll
    -Runebearer
    Janissa Stonetide
    Nyss Huters

    Promised thoughts:

    This is a dick hole of a matchup. If you get a proper win against a strong player here, take your props. That said, here are some thoughts that could at least increase the chance that he'll make a mistake.

    1. Kill the shit out of Janissa. Until you do, your assassination threat is nonexistent and all your shooting is unreliable. I cannot imagine winning this match as long as Janissa is alive.

    2. Nyss will be crazy point efficient at taking apart Hunters. Don't let them position near you, unless you're saccing a Hunter for Janissa.

    3. Spread your commandos out so that 3" AoEs won't clip more than one of them. Also, position them so that Nyss can be lured in to kill grunts, but into range of sprays.

    4. Don't be over-eager to punch holes in warbeasts. Always remember that beasts have two states: dead, and fucking your face.

    4b. When you can kill a beast, kill it. Don't spread your attacks.

    5. You have better range: if your opponent leaves a couple models in kill-range and nothing backing them up, kill them and shift away.

    Your overall goal is to eat away at his army faster than he eats away at yours, and try to goad him into either serving up Calandra on a platter, or trading away his beasts to kill your stuff.

    twitter, github, resume/portfolio, if you like to play or host boardgames online, check out handtracker
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