The evolution thing is similar and unique to both (bugs, Aliens... they didn't collect DNA through warfare), but yeah, overall, they've both branched from their sources quite a bit.
A unrelated but funny anecdote; Michael Moorcock refers to GW as "notorious rip-off artists". I don't think he's aware of Warcraft, though. Arthas would probably draw a bit of ire.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Moorcock's flagship character is an albino prince who takes up Stormbringer, a great black sword of Chaos, to save his kingdom, and ends up slaying everyone he loves and destroying the world completely.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Moorcock's flagship character is an albino prince who takes up Stormbringer, a great black sword of Chaos, to save his kingdom, and ends up slaying everyone he loves and destroying the world completely.
That happens plenty enough.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Moorcock's flagship character is an albino prince who takes up Stormbringer, a great black sword of Chaos, to save his kingdom, and ends up slaying everyone he loves and destroying the world completely.
That happens plenty enough.
LOT did it.
somewhat at least... with the ring and all. the implications are there. not sure if it actually ever happened (not TOO up on my LOTR mythos)
edit - I am neither attacking or defending either side with this post, just sayin'.
Moorcock's flagship character is an albino prince who takes up Stormbringer, a great black sword of Chaos, to save his kingdom, and ends up slaying everyone he loves and destroying the world completely.
That happens plenty enough.
LOT did it.
somewhat at least... with the ring and all. the implications are there. not sure if it actually ever happened (not TOO up on my LOTR mythos)
edit - I am neither attacking or defending either side with this post, just sayin'.
Absolutely. Authors play on archetypes, and game companies give those archetypes visual form, then let people play and dabble with them. It becomes an issue when people decide to make it an issue (whether authors, content owners, or fans), but in essence the cycle is what keeps fantasy and sci-fi genres vital. You've got the cutting edge of creativity (thousands of years ago, in proto-Beowulf or Odyssey tales), modern authors weaving it all together (like Tolkien, Moorcock, and Heinlein), then modern game companies giving them visuals (GW gave mobile infantry a visual look, Blizzard brought that look to video games). Game companies also make them "democratic" in a sense, opening them up to be shared worlds for many authors, as well as players/consumers.
For as much as I respect people like Michael Moorcock for their skill, I think it's retarded for him to dislike GW (and by extension, Blizzard) so much. It's not like he made a tabletop game or video game that allowed people to participate in his stories.
Moorcock's flagship character is an albino prince who takes up Stormbringer, a great black sword of Chaos, to save his kingdom, and ends up slaying everyone he loves and destroying the world completely.
Yup. The big difference being that Elric was an anti-hero. And also much more awesome than Arthas.
And, does the 8-way arrow symbolizing chaos pre-date Moorcock? That's the oldest reference I know of.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Well, except days where I don't have ten hours to devote to a single game.
...which are a lot of days
Dawn of War.
Feck yas.
Needs Tyranids so bad
I'd only be repeating what's been said really. Similar basic ideas branched off in different directions. Both are good at what they do. Enjoy them.
With regards to someone earlier in the thread saying how scifi teaches us humans are the average guys, this is something that I'd love to see changed in a setting. I think it's be neat to have humans be "the strong guys", or "the smart ones" for a change. But then I guess part of the appeal of fantasy/sci-fi is seeing these species that can do things humans can't.
I'd only be repeating what's been said really. Similar basic ideas branched off in different directions. Both are good at what they do. Enjoy them.
With regards to someone earlier in the thread saying how scifi teaches us humans are the average guys, this is something that I'd love to see changed in a setting. I think it's be neat to have humans be "the strong guys", or "the smart ones" for a change. But then I guess part of the appeal of fantasy/sci-fi is seeing these species that can do things humans can't.
My dream is that one day there will be a novel/game/movie about humans locked in an epic conflict with an alien race. And that that race will just be so much pluckier, so much more determined, curious, clever, and courageous, so much more filled with a love of life, that we'll get our asses handed to us.
I guess it is boring seeing humans be the big strong brutes or the tiny fast-reproducing people, though. We're so used to being the average.
And that that race will just be so much pluckier, so much more determined, curious, clever, and courageous, so much more filled with a love of life, that we'll get our asses handed to us.
That's the whole idea behind the Tau. They have a tiny empire that the Imperium can't crush, because they're so energetic, positive, and determined.
As far as I know, Moorcock was the first to draw the Chaos symbol, which he thought was so cool, he purposefuly didn't copyright it. GW now owns the trademark and eternal wrath of Moorcock... which is funny, because they even gave him credit back in the day, and produced Elric miniatures.
They're basically the United Federation of Planets, shoved into the grim darkness of a far future where there is only war. They're cute. They think the Warp is just an alternate dimension of benign energies.
And Starcraft, with only 1 game and 1 expansion, is already diverging from WH40k. I mean, Space Marines and Terrans have almost nothing but the most superficial things in common. Zerg and Protoss are a little closer to their WH40K counterparts, but really, not that bad.
Space Marines have nothing to do with each other, obviously, but Zerg are straight-up no-joke 100% direct rip-offs of Tyranids, and I'm absolutely shocked that there was never an IP infringement suit filed. Protoss are pretty damned close to Eldar, as well - a highly psychic race whose own decadence resulted in its downfall, after which a strict caste system was implemented, with a splinter faction who rejected the caste system and lived in the shadows?
It's almost impossible to enforce IP when it comes to characters and designs. How often do you see a superhero in a blue suit with a red cape. As long as he doesn't have an "S" in a diamond on his chest, it's considered different.
A lot of the parties involved never bothered to pursue things, either. I've asked GW studio guys about Blizzard before; they just thought it was cool to see an homage to their designs and work. And it's no different than what they did with Moorcock or Heinlein (and said as such in older rulebooks).
And that that race will just be so much pluckier, so much more determined, curious, clever, and courageous, so much more filled with a love of life, that we'll get our asses handed to us.
That's the whole idea behind the Tau. They have a tiny empire that the Imperium can't crush, because they're so energetic, positive, and determined.
As far as I know, Moorcock was the first to draw the Chaos symbol, which he thought was so cool, he purposefuly didn't copyright it. GW now owns the trademark and eternal wrath of Moorcock... which is funny, because they even gave him credit back in the day, and produced Elric miniatures.
That symbols been around since ancient fucking Greece, when it was "Kaos."
With regards to someone earlier in the thread saying how scifi teaches us humans are the average guys, this is something that I'd love to see changed in a setting. I think it's be neat to have humans be "the strong guys", or "the smart ones" for a change. But then I guess part of the appeal of fantasy/sci-fi is seeing these species that can do things humans can't.
In one of the more interesting scifi books I read lately humanity was conquered thousands of years ago, and are now well integrated into the new society, with the conquerors (Shaa) as supreme rulers, Peers (noble families of various conquered races) as the (corrupt nepotistic) government, and then everyone else below them in the middle class or lower.
They're basically the United Federation of Planets, shoved into the grim darkness of a far future where there is only war. They're cute. They think the Warp is just an alternate dimension of benign energies.
I dont think they're so cute, they have this whole manifest destiny thing going on with their expansion.
With regards to someone earlier in the thread saying how scifi teaches us humans are the average guys, this is something that I'd love to see changed in a setting. I think it's be neat to have humans be "the strong guys", or "the smart ones" for a change. But then I guess part of the appeal of fantasy/sci-fi is seeing these species that can do things humans can't.
On a completely thread derailing tangent, there actually is a Sci-Fi book series about this.
The Damned Trilogy by Alan Dean Foster
Wasn't too bad a read. The cool thing is, there's a giant war going on between 2 alien alliances. And one of them starts recruiting humans, because we are the strongest, toughest, most bloodthirsty and most violent sentient species anyones ever seen. It's an interesting turn about from the usual.
I think Grom Helscream would Grimgors ass, most ly because Ive kicked Grimgors ass many a time with non-special characters. Grimgors lame. Archaon however, would beat the shit out of Arthas.
Has anyone besides the Imperium ever defeated the Tyranids?
I thought the Imperium only fought off a small portion of the Tyranid empire/hive/whatever it is called.
They took a little hive fleet, but at one of the best defended locations they had, and lost a huge chunk of their forces. The entire First Company of Ultramarines, every man of them the best of the best of the best's best, each one in a suit of Terminator Armour and a veteran of a hundred wars, all dead. And far more than that.
Basically, the Tyranids are just one of the huge, vast, incalculably powerful alien forces looming over the Imperium that could destroy it in a single swat. Like Chaos. And the Necrons, now. And the Orks, if they ever united. (Which would be no fun at all.)
Dichotomy on
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
So, will the Imperium actually invent new technology? From my knowledge they don't.
Versus discussions are a slippery slope though. I don't think we want to go down that path.
Also, the Imperium doesn't really even understand technology. Other than random heretics or flukes, the only "new" technology is discovering ancient Standard Template Constructs, holy texts that describe how to create devices using existing tools (read: blueprints).
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A unrelated but funny anecdote; Michael Moorcock refers to GW as "notorious rip-off artists". I don't think he's aware of Warcraft, though. Arthas would probably draw a bit of ire.
Moorcock's flagship character is an albino prince who takes up Stormbringer, a great black sword of Chaos, to save his kingdom, and ends up slaying everyone he loves and destroying the world completely.
That happens plenty enough.
LOT did it.
somewhat at least... with the ring and all. the implications are there. not sure if it actually ever happened (not TOO up on my LOTR mythos)
edit - I am neither attacking or defending either side with this post, just sayin'.
Absolutely. Authors play on archetypes, and game companies give those archetypes visual form, then let people play and dabble with them. It becomes an issue when people decide to make it an issue (whether authors, content owners, or fans), but in essence the cycle is what keeps fantasy and sci-fi genres vital. You've got the cutting edge of creativity (thousands of years ago, in proto-Beowulf or Odyssey tales), modern authors weaving it all together (like Tolkien, Moorcock, and Heinlein), then modern game companies giving them visuals (GW gave mobile infantry a visual look, Blizzard brought that look to video games). Game companies also make them "democratic" in a sense, opening them up to be shared worlds for many authors, as well as players/consumers.
For as much as I respect people like Michael Moorcock for their skill, I think it's retarded for him to dislike GW (and by extension, Blizzard) so much. It's not like he made a tabletop game or video game that allowed people to participate in his stories.
but I'd rather play 40k than SC any day.
Well, except days where I don't have ten hours to devote to a single game.
...which are a lot of days
- Soren Kierkegaard
Yup. The big difference being that Elric was an anti-hero. And also much more awesome than Arthas.
And, does the 8-way arrow symbolizing chaos pre-date Moorcock? That's the oldest reference I know of.
Dawn of War.
Feck yas.
- Soren Kierkegaard
I'd only be repeating what's been said really. Similar basic ideas branched off in different directions. Both are good at what they do. Enjoy them.
With regards to someone earlier in the thread saying how scifi teaches us humans are the average guys, this is something that I'd love to see changed in a setting. I think it's be neat to have humans be "the strong guys", or "the smart ones" for a change. But then I guess part of the appeal of fantasy/sci-fi is seeing these species that can do things humans can't.
SoogaGames Blog
I guess it is boring seeing humans be the big strong brutes or the tiny fast-reproducing people, though. We're so used to being the average.
Now that SC2 is existent, that will not last long.
That's the whole idea behind the Tau. They have a tiny empire that the Imperium can't crush, because they're so energetic, positive, and determined.
As far as I know, Moorcock was the first to draw the Chaos symbol, which he thought was so cool, he purposefuly didn't copyright it. GW now owns the trademark and eternal wrath of Moorcock... which is funny, because they even gave him credit back in the day, and produced Elric miniatures.
A lot of the parties involved never bothered to pursue things, either. I've asked GW studio guys about Blizzard before; they just thought it was cool to see an homage to their designs and work. And it's no different than what they did with Moorcock or Heinlein (and said as such in older rulebooks).
That symbols been around since ancient fucking Greece, when it was "Kaos."
I've seen Moorcock claim that he drew it. Perhaps he was referring to a version with arrows?
In one of the more interesting scifi books I read lately humanity was conquered thousands of years ago, and are now well integrated into the new society, with the conquerors (Shaa) as supreme rulers, Peers (noble families of various conquered races) as the (corrupt nepotistic) government, and then everyone else below them in the middle class or lower.
Damnit, I need to borrow a few of those books again, I do love me some Banks.
Reason #12: Grom Hellscream
Grom and Grimgor team-up.
It's in the rules.
The hilarious part is, I'm pretty sure it actually is.
I dont think they're so cute, they have this whole manifest destiny thing going on with their expansion.
SoogaGames Blog
Your reasons are bad, and you should feel bad.
And Tau are the best at what they are. And what they are is space commies.
Who would also take down (or eat) Grom Hellscream. Grom the Paunch didn't get his ass beat by a bunch of trees and a centaur.
Versus discussions are a slippery slope though. I don't think we want to go down that path.
And the Tau are totally cute. The worst they can come up with is imperialism with a dash of facism.
Don't forget possible mind control through the Ethereal Caste.
On a completely thread derailing tangent, there actually is a Sci-Fi book series about this.
The Damned Trilogy by Alan Dean Foster
Wasn't too bad a read. The cool thing is, there's a giant war going on between 2 alien alliances. And one of them starts recruiting humans, because we are the strongest, toughest, most bloodthirsty and most violent sentient species anyones ever seen. It's an interesting turn about from the usual.
how sad.
I thought the Imperium only fought off a small portion of the Tyranid empire/hive/whatever it is called.
They took a little hive fleet, but at one of the best defended locations they had, and lost a huge chunk of their forces. The entire First Company of Ultramarines, every man of them the best of the best of the best's best, each one in a suit of Terminator Armour and a veteran of a hundred wars, all dead. And far more than that.
Basically, the Tyranids are just one of the huge, vast, incalculably powerful alien forces looming over the Imperium that could destroy it in a single swat. Like Chaos. And the Necrons, now. And the Orks, if they ever united. (Which would be no fun at all.)
Just in case folks missed it the first time:
Also, the Imperium doesn't really even understand technology. Other than random heretics or flukes, the only "new" technology is discovering ancient Standard Template Constructs, holy texts that describe how to create devices using existing tools (read: blueprints).