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Starcraft's "Harvest" of WH40k

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Mai-Kero wrote: »
    Has anyone besides the Imperium ever defeated the Tyranids?
    Craftworld Iyanden and Prince Yriel.


    They're still pretty much stuck using their dead as soldiers now, though.

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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited May 2007
    Echo wrote: »
    In one of the more interesting scifi books I read lately humanity was conquered thousands of years ago, and are now well integrated into the new society, with the conquerors (Shaa) as supreme rulers, Peers (noble families of various conquered races) as the (corrupt nepotistic) government, and then everyone else below them in the middle class or lower.

    For those playing at home, Echo's talking about the "Dread Empire's Fall" trilogy by Walter Jon Williams. Those of you who've expressed a wish to see stories where humans aren't the boring average members of the galaxy (or its rulers) could do a lot worse than to check these books out - they're intelligent, literate, and fun modern space operas.

  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited May 2007
    Morskittar wrote: »
    It's almost impossible to enforce IP when it comes to characters and designs. How often do you see a superhero in a blue suit with a red cape. As long as he doesn't have an "S" in a diamond on his chest, it's considered different.
    Not quite true. Back in the fifties DC won an infringment suit against Fawcett Comics (publishers of Captain Marvel) for the character's similarity to Superman, a serious enough blow to Fawcett that they ended up shutting their doors and selling the Captain Marvel properties to DC. Similarly, while companies like Image can publish Supermanalikes like Supreme or Astro City's Samaritan, that they aren't sued owes more to the gentlemen's-agreement nature of the modern comics business (and, as I'll explain below, DC's later history of tolerating parodies and homages) than being legally bulletproof. I mean, Charles Atlas's company was able to keep DC tied up in a months-long suit over Flex Mentallo despite Flex being a clear parody and in a completely different business.

    But the thing with IP and trademark law is, you have to be able to show that you've vigorously enforced your claim or it weakens your position later on. Marvel and DC had to sue the makers of City of Heroes on grounds that pretty much everyone knew from the get-go were spurious, not because they expected to win but because otherwise it would make actual infringment of their properties that much easier down the road. With regards to the thread topic, I think GW could easily have sued Blizzard back in the day - maybe not won, but they probably could have kept the game off shelves for months or even years. But they'd have no chance now, since any complaint they brought up could be dismissed with "well, you've tolerated this for over a decade, you must not be very serious."

  • KetherialKetherial Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    having never played warhammer, i always thought of starcraft as aliens vs. predator vs. humans.

  • grendel824_grendel824_ Registered User
    edited May 2007
    I noticed the thread title and I thought I might have a somewhat interesting perspective on the Blizzard/WH40K connection. I worked in the comics/games store (and I'm actually working there again part time while in grad school to afford my ridiculously expensive comics habit) that the actual designers of Starcraft used to shop at, and I actually overheard several conversations they had about doing their own RTS that was something of an homage to Warhammer 40k. Several of my co-workers actually went to work at Blizzard, too, and one of them even has a fishing pole named after him in WoW.

  • MittenMitten Registered User
    edited May 2007
    ...and one of them even has a fishing pole named after him in WoW.
    I suppose this is straying a bit off topic, but... Pat Nagle?

  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Ketherial wrote: »
    having never played warhammer, i always thought of starcraft as aliens vs. predator vs. humans.

    I see the aliens but... predator?

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  • FalloutFallout GIRL'S DAY EVERY DAYRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm pretty sure he means eldar

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  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    shryke wrote: »
    SUPERSUGA wrote: »
    With regards to someone earlier in the thread saying how scifi teaches us humans are the average guys, this is something that I'd love to see changed in a setting. I think it's be neat to have humans be "the strong guys", or "the smart ones" for a change. But then I guess part of the appeal of fantasy/sci-fi is seeing these species that can do things humans can't.

    On a completely thread derailing tangent, there actually is a Sci-Fi book series about this.

    The Damned Trilogy by Alan Dean Foster

    Wasn't too bad a read. The cool thing is, there's a giant war going on between 2 alien alliances. And one of them starts recruiting humans, because we are the strongest, toughest, most bloodthirsty and most violent sentient species anyones ever seen. It's an interesting turn about from the usual.
    That sounds cool and is pretty much what I was hoping for! I'll note down the name and try to check it out some time.

  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Variable wrote: »
    Ketherial wrote: »
    having never played warhammer, i always thought of starcraft as aliens vs. predator vs. humans.

    I see the aliens but... predator?

    You mean scrupulously honor-bound people who are constantly cloaking themselves and wear their "hair" in oddly non-human dreadlocks don't remind you of anything?

  • AgemAgem Registered User
    edited May 2007
    The difference is that the Protoss are a protector species and Predators are just dicks. And the only Protoss with personal cloaking fields are Dark Templar, who are originally exiles and fight with nothing more high-tech than some sort of energy sword.

    I can see how someone could make the connection if they hadn't been exposed to anything more similar to the Protoss, but with that exposure, it seems like a very, very tenuous connection.

  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Not quite true. Back in the fifties DC won an infringment suit against Fawcett Comics (publishers of Captain Marvel) for the character's similarity to Superman, a serious enough blow to Fawcett that they ended up shutting their doors and selling the Captain Marvel properties to DC. Similarly, while companies like Image can publish Supermanalikes like Supreme or Astro City's Samaritan, that they aren't sued owes more to the gentlemen's-agreement nature of the modern comics business (and, as I'll explain below, DC's later history of tolerating parodies and homages) than being legally bulletproof. I mean, Charles Atlas's company was able to keep DC tied up in a months-long suit over Flex Mentallo despite Flex being a clear parody and in a completely different business.

    But the thing with IP and trademark law is, you have to be able to show that you've vigorously enforced your claim or it weakens your position later on. Marvel and DC had to sue the makers of City of Heroes on grounds that pretty much everyone knew from the get-go were spurious, not because they expected to win but because otherwise it would make actual infringment of their properties that much easier down the road. With regards to the thread topic, I think GW could easily have sued Blizzard back in the day - maybe not won, but they probably could have kept the game off shelves for months or even years. But they'd have no chance now, since any complaint they brought up could be dismissed with "well, you've tolerated this for over a decade, you must not be very serious."

    I'd always thought, with my extremely limited knowledge of IP law, that the biggest threat (especially in the comics space) was having to spend money to defend yourself.

    There's not a whole lot of information out there, but I don't think I've ever seen a successful cross-media gaming lawsuit, while GW has killed or extracted funds from many a small company with miniatures, artwork, or game-related stuff too close to theirs. In any case, I agree that GW may have been able to make things difficult for Blizzard, especially around the original Warcraft. Later releases have strayed quite a bit. Whether through ignorance, appreciation of homage, or whatever else, they never did a thing.

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  • Zen VulgarityZen Vulgarity Ask me about Super Propane and Super Propane accessoriesRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Delaying a product for months can kill it fast.

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  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Delaying a product for months can kill it fast.

    Though not my speed, I think everyone's better off they didn't delay things, then.

    Also, I stumbled across this absurdly fascinating article from a former GW author, describing the genesis of GW and GW novels/background. Apparently Terry Pratchet wanted to get on board for the first round of books during the late 80's.

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Delaying a product for months can kill it fast.

    Though not my speed, I think everyone's better off they didn't delay things, then.

    Also, I stumbled across this absurdly fascinating article from a former GW author, describing the genesis of GW and GW novels/background. Apparently Terry Pratchet wanted to get on board for the first round of books during the late 80's.
    really? It's hard to imagine Pratchett writing war books like that. He usually tends to settle things without much violence.

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  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Delaying a product for months can kill it fast.

    Though not my speed, I think everyone's better off they didn't delay things, then.

    Also, I stumbled across this absurdly fascinating article from a former GW author, describing the genesis of GW and GW novels/background. Apparently Terry Pratchet wanted to get on board for the first round of books during the late 80's.
    really? It's hard to imagine Pratchett writing war books like that. He usually tends to settle things without much violence.

    The humor's pretty similar though. I could see him doing a short story about halflings stealing each other's cocks or orcs playing football with a baby.

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  • EchoEcho staring is caring Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited May 2007
    Hah, great phrase in that article: "literary karaoke". :P

  • Something WittySomething Witty Registered User
    edited May 2007
    At this point in the road, most of the major universes in Sci-Fi or Fantasy are pretty similar to each other. Alot of them have similar underlying themes and races. How many universes have an ancient, extinct (or nearly extinct) race of super intelligent incredibly sophistcated yet mysterious beings? How many universes have orcs and humans and dark lords? And lets not forget the parasitic race of semi-intelligent beings that live in a social structure similar to a hive. I suppose the main thing that lends credence to the accusation that Blizzard harvested Warhammer is the fact that the art styles are so similar. Warhammer is much more dark and brutal of course, but they both use a very similar exagerated style of art.

    Really you could take just about any popular universe and say that it harvested off of another, or vice versa. You could say that every fantasy book made since Tolkein started publishing his work harvested off of LotR. And it might be true to a degree since most fantasy is heavily influenced by Tolkein but it wouldn't really be fair. I think the originality of something doesnt necisarily come from the universe, but from the story it's self, the story and the characters. Not from the art style or the races involved or the places where they wage their wars.

    I'm going to do something tottaly geeky here and quote a character from a fantasy book, Septon Maribald from A Feast for Crows:

    There are many types of outlaws as there are many types of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings but they are not the same.

    So if it works for outlaws I'm going to take a bit of a jump here and say that it works for fictional universes too. If you understand me. Although I admit I never managed to get involved in the Warhammer universe or any universe Blizzard has created. So forgive me for that.

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  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I started playing Warhammer and 40k well before Warcraft or Starcraft, yet I don't really care if Blizzard "harvested" Warhammer or 40k. I do get annoyed with twits who claim that Warhammer/40k clearly copied from Blizzard (when those were around well before Blizzard), but otherwise I do not particularly care so long as the games aren't bad homages. I do find that Blizzard has been going into the DnD monster manuals more and more these days, more so than with Warhammer anyway. I was playing the expansion to WoW for example and the number of monsters I saw that looked identical to monsters from the DnD monster manuals (of which I have nearly all of them) was uncanny.

    Felt like I was playing DnD for a while in fact.

  • KetherialKetherial Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Variable wrote: »
    Ketherial wrote: »
    having never played warhammer, i always thought of starcraft as aliens vs. predator vs. humans.

    I see the aliens but... predator?

    sure.

    predators are tough, with highly advanced technology and a tribalistic society. dts cloak like the predators. zealots have arm blades like the predators. mounted shoulder cannons remind me of the way a dragoon attacks. the way they look even kind of reminds me of predators (with their masks) on.

    the similarities arent perfect, but neither do the zerg really resemble the aliens when you think about it. but the themes are definitely there.

    again, ive never played warhammer so i dont know what the eldar look like or fight like or whatever. but the first time i ever played starcraft, i thought, shit, this is like aliens vs predator vs humans. awesome!

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The Eldar = space elves

  • NechriahNechriah Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    You know what they need.

    They need a proper, modern RTS that actually is Humans vs. Predators vs. Aliens.

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  • SavantSavant Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Nechriah wrote: »
    Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.

    Yeah, but Tau came after starcraft and was more directly based off of anime (so I hear).

    However, Protoss being a mixture of a bit of eldar and a bit of predator makes a decent amount of sense. They do look a bit like predators with their masks still on, and some of the weapons are very similar.

  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    They all copied Tolkien. The end

  • GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Nechriah wrote: »
    Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.

    Just for that I'll scream "Stealthsuits ready!" for every dark templar my brother trains.
    Savant wrote: »
    Yeah, but Tau came after starcraft and was more directly based off of anime (so I hear).

    "The Tau infantry models, according to sculptor Jes Goodwin, were designed to have subtle influences taken from Chinese foot soldiers, while the Battlesuits and vehicles drew from mecha anime."

    So yeah. Even their accents in DC seem to be based on what we think Japanese people sound like.

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  • KetherialKetherial Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    You know what they need.

    They need a proper, modern RTS that actually is Humans vs. Predators vs. Aliens.

    alienvspredatoru-ps2.gif avp6.jpg

    i own this but have not yet played it. i blind bought it just because it, well, because it's an rts with aliens, predators and humans.

    im sure it probably sucks though. most reviews say just that.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    By proper I mean on a PC and not made of suck.

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  • FalloutFallout GIRL'S DAY EVERY DAYRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Nechriah wrote: »
    Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.

    Yeah except the Tau came out after Starcraft

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  • piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Fallout wrote: »
    Nechriah wrote: »
    Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.

    Yeah except the Tau came out after Starcraft

    HAH, So Warhammer did rip off Starcraft.
    Spoiler:

  • ShoggothShoggoth Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Apart form their heads, I don't see how the Tau resemble the Protos.

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  • GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    And they certainly aren't the best melee fighters. Although like Toss, they rely heavily on droids.

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  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Glyph wrote: »
    And they certainly aren't the best melee fighters. Although like Toss, they rely heavily on droids.

    And kind of lack psychic powers.

  • GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    It's theorized that some sort of psionic link is what's keeping them loyal to the Ethereals. Or maybe they're just credulous.

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  • ZephosZephos Climbin in yo ski lifts, snatchin your people up. MichiganRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    appearance wise and maybe a few random things about them and they might, might, look similar if you squint your eyes, but really the tau and protoss aren't really that similar at all. (not just physically)


    say now, wasn't there a 40K unit made after starcraft that was a ripoff or something? or at least thats what i hear on the urban legend grape vine.

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  • EchoEcho staring is caring Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited May 2007
    The tyranid ravener might be a wee bit hydralisk-like if you squint.

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  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Bear in mind the Tyranids actually got a lot more Zerg-like in their more recent designs. The Ravener in particular, I don't think that actually had a model until recently (post-SC).

  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    From what I understand, the Ravener was exactly that. "Nya nya, look we can do it too."
    Glyph wrote: »
    It's theorized that some sort of psionic link is what's keeping them loyal to the Ethereals. Or maybe they're just credulous.

    It'd be tough without much of a warp-signature. I'd say that's a theory that can be grouped in with "Sigmar is a Primarch" or "Human technology was made by the C'tan". As in internets BS not even hinted at by GW.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Morskittar wrote: »
    From what I understand, the Ravener was exactly that. "Nya nya, look we can do it too."
    Glyph wrote: »
    It's theorized that some sort of psionic link is what's keeping them loyal to the Ethereals. Or maybe they're just credulous.

    It'd be tough without much of a warp-signature. I'd say that's a theory that can be grouped in with "Sigmar is a Primarch" or "Human technology was made by the C'tan". As in internets BS not even hinted at by GW.

    It doesn't give a source, but Wikipedia does say
    Ethereals are obeyed without question by the other castes, and the Imperium suspects that this control is the result of a latent psychic or pheromone-based power.

  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I believe in both the Fire Warrior novel and the Xenology book strongly hint at the pheromone theory.

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