That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
What still gets me is my exchange with Darkwolfe like 20 pages back.
Darkwolfe: I hope all of you who don't like the response comic leave Penny Arcade in a huff.
Me: Well, that says a lot about the kind of personality you have.
Darkwolfe: You can't infer anything about my personality from my post!
What? Are people really this dense and disconnected?
That's some serious reductionism right there. Let's try my translation.
Darkewolfe: Lots of people have threatened to leave over this. If the choice is between throwing out this entire brand of humor or losing those people, I hope they leave in a huff.
Drez: I can tell I wouldn't like you from the personality you exhibit in that post.
Darkewolfe: Well, you can certainly tell that I'm angry about the ridiculous responses that have come out of this crowd.
Followed by me explaining what I think the phrase rape culture, in American society, should mean, (as opposed to anywhere that has a REAL rape culture), and why I think we should do more to help rape victims.
The only thing you can tell, Drez, is that I don't seem to like you. And if you engage in this sort of petulant flamebaiting over perceived hostility from entertainers who have no actual gripe with you, then I probably don't.
I haven't seen a single person threaten to leave over this, so maybe your entire premise is built upon the same adolescent fantasy that leads you to wish them away from the community?
I have seen people stating they might sit out of PAX as a result of this, which is not the same thing as "leaving the community," but I haven't seen anyone here suggest that they are going to stop posting on the PA forums, or stop reading PA, except some bloggers who don't seem to post on the forums and aren't really a part of the forums anyway. I would argue that they aren't even a part of the community.
And I think you're intelligent to have realized all this. So the people you and bowen are really wishing away are people that didn't like the comic and wish to voice their opinion about it. These aren't people that have threatened to leave, these are people you just want to go away, or as bowen put it, to "shut up." Also, that false dichotomy you constructed - that it's either lose comics of this sort or lose those people - is, as I said, false. Mike and Jerry don't really give a damn what anyone thinks anyway. They stated that much. So this is just your petulant wish to shape the community so you don't have to listen to people who disagree with you.
Which is, as I said and maintain, childish.
I actually made the comment right after I read where someone posted an "I'm leaving the forums, goodbye" post. It may have been in one of the other threads, however. I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple people threatening to leave the community, or posting things like, "I'm not comfortable in this community." I'm not wishing anyone away; it was actually a direct response to people leaving/threatening to leave/hinting at leaving.
In another conversation earlier on, someone mentioned a girlfriend who would be very uncomfortable with rape jokes. He asked whether I'd say she wasn't welcome. I responded that I'd want her to welcome, but I also wouldn't want to feel responsible for her discomfort, so if she wasn't able to participate in a community built on that kind of humor, I didn't think it was the place for her.
I'm not actively wishing anyone away.
But see, while the community is perhaps built upon the humor of the Penny-Arcade strips, it doesn't emulate the same tone, not even close. If you told someone "I'm going to stab you now," which is a phrase that pops up verbatim at least once (Claw Shrimp strip) and has dozens of variations over the years of Penny-Arcade, you would probably get infracted/jailed/banned before the other guy could even respond. Maybe not in SE++ - I guess it would depend on the context, maybe - but anywhere else I think you would be.
And as you just said to The Cat, you would rather these people not shit up the forums. Bowen said that he'd rather they just shut up, which is pretty much the same thing as wishing someone away as your only presence on a forum is your "voice" - by shutting up, you're pretty much not here. So let me ask you point blank: Would you prefer that the people complaining stay here and voice their opinions even if they wished to stay on the forums, or would you prefer that they left the forums even if all they wanted to do is communicate their anger/annoyance/outrage/whatever? Because that's the reality. The response comic really pissed me off, but I have absolutely no intention of leaving the forums. So, do you wish me away, or not?
"Rape culture" is a great boogie-man for feminists, because it means whatever they want it to mean when making a particular argument.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
To be fair, you can say that about almost any concept in social science. As long as people are arguing in good faith and not moving the goal posts, there's no reason it really needs an exact definition to be used in an argument.
I'm going to be getting my degree in sociology in the next few months, and even I'll agree that the social sciences aren't exactly consistent (really, they shouldn't even be called "sciences").
Well said, GG, that's all she wrote and really, this is the reality.
Talk to your family and ask them if a girl holds any blame after she gets raped when she's hanging out at a party with people drinking.
Even after one of my friends was raped, my family essentially told me that "I'm not blaming her...but COME ON she was at a party where people were drinking! I'm not saying it's her fault, i'm saying her actions partly contributed to what happened to her!"
I mean, it's like blaming the dude who gets shot walking down harlem. Yeah, walking down a dangerous neighborhood increases the odds of getting shot, but I don't blame him or even suggest that choosing to walk down that street somehow makes him responsible for taking the bullet.
The asshole who shot him is responsible. Saying anything other than "walking in a dangerous neighborhood increases the chances of harm" is a blame game I'm not willing to play.
What makes rape any different from other crimes where the victim's action were at least part of the reason why they ended up victimized?
If someone loses money in a crooked 3 card monty game, no one thinks twice about saying "Dumb move playing the game, dude." The guys running the game are still criminals, but the victim made dumb decisions, too.
Similarly, a woman who goes alone to a frat party and drinks to the point where she has passed out has acted stupidly. That doesn't excuse or minimize the criminality of someone who has sex with her unconscious body, but her foolish decisions are part of the reason why she found herself in that predicament.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Modern Man on
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That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
What still gets me is my exchange with Darkwolfe like 20 pages back.
Darkwolfe: I hope all of you who don't like the response comic leave Penny Arcade in a huff.
Me: Well, that says a lot about the kind of personality you have.
Darkwolfe: You can't infer anything about my personality from my post!
What? Are people really this dense and disconnected?
That's some serious reductionism right there. Let's try my translation.
Darkewolfe: Lots of people have threatened to leave over this. If the choice is between throwing out this entire brand of humor or losing those people, I hope they leave in a huff.
Drez: I can tell I wouldn't like you from the personality you exhibit in that post.
Darkewolfe: Well, you can certainly tell that I'm angry about the ridiculous responses that have come out of this crowd.
Followed by me explaining what I think the phrase rape culture, in American society, should mean, (as opposed to anywhere that has a REAL rape culture), and why I think we should do more to help rape victims.
The only thing you can tell, Drez, is that I don't seem to like you. And if you engage in this sort of petulant flamebaiting over perceived hostility from entertainers who have no actual gripe with you, then I probably don't.
I haven't seen a single person threaten to leave over this, so maybe your entire premise is built upon the same adolescent fantasy that leads you to wish them away from the community?
I have seen people stating they might sit out of PAX as a result of this, which is not the same thing as "leaving the community," but I haven't seen anyone here suggest that they are going to stop posting on the PA forums, or stop reading PA, except some bloggers who don't seem to post on the forums and aren't really a part of the forums anyway. I would argue that they aren't even a part of the community.
And I think you're intelligent to have realized all this. So the people you and bowen are really wishing away are people that didn't like the comic and wish to voice their opinion about it. These aren't people that have threatened to leave, these are people you just want to go away, or as bowen put it, to "shut up." Also, that false dichotomy you constructed - that it's either lose comics of this sort or lose those people - is, as I said, false. Mike and Jerry don't really give a damn what anyone thinks anyway, insofar as the comic itself goes. They stated that much. So this is just your petulant wish to shape the community so you don't have to listen to people who disagree with you.
Which is, as I said and maintain, childish.
I could have sworn I've seen a few bloggers auction their stuff off and claim they were down with PA. Which is good, that's what you should do if something offends you. You shouldn't start a post war and continue sticking your proverbial hand on the proverbial hot stove.
Wait a minute. I'm not defending people like kirbybits who seem to act incendiary on purpose, but you are saying that the appropriate response to being offended is to immediately withdraw and go away? It's never appropriate to, you know, communicate why you are upset? You are judging the extremists' views as being, well, off the gourd. And you may be right. But there are plenty of reasonable people that find Mike's and Jerry's actions here offensive, and simply wanted to communicate this to them.
I'd say "if you're offended, you should leave immediately" is a pretty bad behavior to promote.
Drez on
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
Well said, GG, that's all she wrote and really, this is the reality.
Talk to your family and ask them if a girl holds any blame after she gets raped when she's hanging out at a party with people drinking.
Even after one of my friends was raped, my family essentially told me that "I'm not blaming her...but COME ON she was at a party where people were drinking! I'm not saying it's her fault, i'm saying her actions partly contributed to what happened to her!"
I mean, it's like blaming the dude who gets shot walking down harlem. Yeah, walking down a dangerous neighborhood increases the odds of getting shot, but I don't blame him or even suggest that choosing to walk down that street somehow makes him responsible for taking the bullet.
The asshole who shot him is responsible. Saying anything other than "walking in a dangerous neighborhood increases the chances of harm" is a blame game I'm not willing to play.
What makes rape any different from other crimes where the victim's action were at least part of the reason why they ended up victimized?
If someone loses money in a crooked 3 card monty game, no one thinks twice about saying "Dumb move playing the game, dude." The guys running the game are still criminals, but the victim made dumb decisions, too.
Similarly, a woman who goes alone to a frat party and drinks to the point where she has passed out has acted stupidly. That doesn't excuse or minimize the criminality of someone who has sex with her unconscious body, but her foolish decisions are part of the reason why she found herself in that predicament.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Woah.
There's a giant difference between losing money while playing three card monty and having your unconcious body raped by a drunk college dude.
MalReynolds on
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"Rape culture" is a great boogie-man for feminists, because it means whatever they want it to mean when making a particular argument.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
To be fair, you can say that about almost any concept in social science. As long as people are arguing in good faith and not moving the goal posts, there's no reason it really needs an exact definition to be used in an argument.
I think we have firmly established that the people most loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" are not arguing in good faith.
Right, but that doesn't say anything about the concept of rape culture. For example, I haven't seen a lot of people in THIS thread arguing in bad faith about it, despite the fact that the argument extends from a website that is arguing in bad faith.
If rape culture had a more concrete definition I believe it would be helpful. As it stands now, the phrase is often used as a cudgel to silence differing (not necessarily even dissenting) opinion.
My family was murdered, I don't care about murder jokes
Some committed suicide, I don't care about suicide jokes
Ive been subjected too the most brutal of violence, and I don't care about violent jokes
If I did, I not only would be a sad individual, but I wouldn't be reading PA comics. I would probably just be reading the Bible or something. They are not saying go rape, go kill, go do X. It is a joke, the blame for being offended rests only on thyself.
But see, while the community is perhaps built upon the humor of the Penny-Arcade strips, it doesn't emulate the same tone, not even close. If you told someone "I'm going to stab you now," which is a phrase that pops up verbatim at least once (Claw Shrimp strip) and has dozens of variations over the years of Penny-Arcade, you would probably get infracted/jailed/banned before the other guy could even respond. Maybe not in SE++ - I guess it would depend on the context, maybe - but anywhere else I think you would be.
And as you just said to The Cat, you would rather these people not shit up the forums. Bowen said that he'd rather they just shut up, which is pretty much the same thing as wishing someone away as your only presence on a forum is your "voice" - by shutting up, you're pretty much not here. So let me ask you point blank: Would you prefer that the people complaining stay here and voice their opinions even if they wished to stay on the forums, or would you prefer that they left the forums even if all they wanted to do is communicate their anger/annoyance/outrage/whatever? Because that's the reality. The response comic really pissed me off, but I have absolutely no intention of leaving the forums. So, do you wish me away, or not?
They're more than welcome to. I can still want them to shut up. Don't confuse my opinion with me policing them. Which I have no authority to do, I can still voice my displeasure of their company and will likely just ignore them if it bothers me so much.
But I'm pretty hypocritical at times so I'll probably keep arguing rather than ignore them because I wouldn't be in D&D if I didn't like to bicker like a kid fighting over who gets a turn with the Nintendo.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
"Rape culture" is a great boogie-man for feminists, because it means whatever they want it to mean when making a particular argument.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
To be fair, you can say that about almost any concept in social science. As long as people are arguing in good faith and not moving the goal posts, there's no reason it really needs an exact definition to be used in an argument.
I think we have firmly established that the people most loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" are not arguing in good faith.
Really? Please quote the posts in this thread or in others where people are loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith. I just haven't seen it. I have seen a lot of posters strawmanning rape culture and pretending it means all manner of complete nonsense, but I haven't seen anyone loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith.
Kistra on
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I'm not entirely in disagreement with MM (which is awkward and uncomfortable), but I can't envision a scenario where it would be productive to say that a rape victim's actions put him or her at risk.
Yes it put them at risk, but the substantial and meaningful fault still lies on the criminal actor. It does no one any good in a situation involving rape to note the victim's fault.
If someone mugs me while I pass through the bad part of town, I'm still filing a police report despite having put myself at risk. And I'll be right to do so.
If rape culture had a more concrete definition I believe it would be helpful. As it stands now, the phrase is often used as a cudgel to silence differing (not necessarily even dissenting) opinion.
This is so true. There's all these little supposedly feminist catch phrases that end up sounding so vague when they start getting thrown around. I've tried looking up solid definitions, but those definitions get blurred when seemingly prominent figures in these arguments continuously throw them around like their going out of style regardless of the context of the situation.
Of course, I'm sure the other side has some catch phrases they're abusing as well. I just maybe know those better.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Does wearing revealing clothing count as a bad decision?
Wait a minute. I'm not defending people like kirbybits who seem to act incendiary on purpose, but you are saying that the appropriate response to being offended is to immediately withdraw and go away? It's never appropriate to, you know, communicate why you are upset? You are judging the extremists' views as being, well, off the gourd. And you may be right. But there are plenty of reasonable people that find Mike's and Jerry's actions here offensive, and simply wanted to communicate this to them.
I'd say "if you're offended, you should leave immediately" is a pretty bad behavior to promote.
You're reading between the lines Drez. A meaning that isn't there. No, I said one should not partake in a community that offends them to such a degree. Repeating what I said earlier, if they find it offensive, they should probably stop reading it. They can hem and haw all they want, especially about invisible fake things, but whether they like it or not doesn't mean the topic will go away. If you read penny-arcade for political correctness or (every other shameful topic but rape) then, well, I don't know what to tell you other than you'll be sadly disappointed.
Like I said, I find it hard to have sympathy for a child that touches the hot stove numerous times. At that point it's not "I find this offensive" it's "I like to put myself in uncomfortable situations." Why have I not heard an outcry about topics of rape before? This has been going on for a very long time now. Almost 4+ years since the first rape comic first appeared.
This was reactionary, and to draw attention, nothing more, this was not so much about rape as it was about "look at me, I have an internet opinion." Those are the kinds of people I have no patience for and yes, I wish they would go away, they are not doing anything to help their cause and they're not there to voice their disapproval. They're there to get attention.
You may not agree with me, but that's okay.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
If rape culture had a more concrete definition I believe it would be helpful.
Document the prevalence of false beliefs about rape. Theorize or research indirectly the false beliefs people might be unwilling to admit in a structured interview. Note that false beliefs about rape make it easier to rape and affect the experience of victims of rape. Rape Culture.
I don't know how it gets anymore concrete than that.
In before you tell me that a network of related beliefs has nothing to do with culture.
As it stands now, the phrase is often used as a cudgel to silence differing (not necessarily even dissenting) opinion.
On Shakesville, who cares? Irrelevant to PAX, Penny Arcade, and gamer culture.
In these forums, I disagree.
Well said, GG, that's all she wrote and really, this is the reality.
Talk to your family and ask them if a girl holds any blame after she gets raped when she's hanging out at a party with people drinking.
Even after one of my friends was raped, my family essentially told me that "I'm not blaming her...but COME ON she was at a party where people were drinking! I'm not saying it's her fault, i'm saying her actions partly contributed to what happened to her!"
I mean, it's like blaming the dude who gets shot walking down harlem. Yeah, walking down a dangerous neighborhood increases the odds of getting shot, but I don't blame him or even suggest that choosing to walk down that street somehow makes him responsible for taking the bullet.
The asshole who shot him is responsible. Saying anything other than "walking in a dangerous neighborhood increases the chances of harm" is a blame game I'm not willing to play.
What makes rape any different from other crimes where the victim's action were at least part of the reason why they ended up victimized?
If someone loses money in a crooked 3 card monty game, no one thinks twice about saying "Dumb move playing the game, dude." The guys running the game are still criminals, but the victim made dumb decisions, too.
Similarly, a woman who goes alone to a frat party and drinks to the point where she has passed out has acted stupidly. That doesn't excuse or minimize the criminality of someone who has sex with her unconscious body, but her foolish decisions are part of the reason why she found herself in that predicament.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Woah.
There's a giant difference between losing money while playing three card monty and having your unconcious body raped by a drunk college dude.
Of course there is, but that wasn't his point. His point was that both of these situations are bad and were perpetrated by people who are at fault, but the victims also made poor decisions that enabled these things to happen.
It seems like some people are trying to say "the victim is never at fault and in no way makes it easier for bad things to happen to them ever", which is simply ludicrous. We've got people in America who are in poverty partly because of the system, but also partly because they spend money unwisely. Are we supposed to pretend that the second part is untrue because we don't want to blame the victim?
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Does wearing revealing clothing count as a bad decision?
Yes, I too would like to see the decision tree that leads to a woman (or man) being responsible for her own rape.
I think what people are arguing is that, in this society people shouldn't need to avoid patterns of behavior to avoid being raped. Just like people shouldn't need to avoid patters of behavior to avoid being the victims of a driveby shooting.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Does wearing revealing clothing count as a bad decision?
It's a decision that is more risky, yes. Just like driving over the speed limit is a risky decision.
Really? Please quote the posts in this thread or in others where people are loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith. I just haven't seen it. I have seen a lot of posters strawmanning rape culture and pretending it means all manner of complete nonsense, but I haven't seen anyone loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith.
I'd argue that strawmanning "rape culture" is using the phrase in bad faith because it's effectively troll baiting at that point and the purpose of troll baiting is almost always to set your prey up to be easily knocked down and have any reasonable points they may have had completely devalued.
"Rape culture" is a great boogie-man for feminists, because it means whatever they want it to mean when making a particular argument.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
To be fair, you can say that about almost any concept in social science. As long as people are arguing in good faith and not moving the goal posts, there's no reason it really needs an exact definition to be used in an argument.
I think we have firmly established that the people most loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" are not arguing in good faith.
Really? Please quote the posts in this thread or in others where people are loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith. I just haven't seen it. I have seen a lot of posters strawmanning rape culture and pretending it means all manner of complete nonsense, but I haven't seen anyone loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith.
On a scale of 1 to 5 (1.Strongly disagree
2.Disagree
3.Neither agree nor disagree
4.Agree
5.Strongly agree)
Please rate the following sentence: The original "dickwolf" comic strip perpetuates rape culture.
On Shakesville, who cares? Irrelevant to PAX, Penny Arcade, and gamer culture.
In these forums, I disagree.
I'd say that from what I've seen on these forums, it hasn't been so bad, but many of the people contributing to this thread are also looking at shakesville, twitter, and every other forum talking about this stuff, so the message mistakenly gets mixed, I'm sure, so some forget exactly what they're arguing against.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Does wearing revealing clothing count as a bad decision?
Yes, I too would like to see the decision tree that leads to a woman (or man) being responsible for her own rape.
Are you saying that wearing revealing clothing is never a bad decision?
Well said, GG, that's all she wrote and really, this is the reality.
Talk to your family and ask them if a girl holds any blame after she gets raped when she's hanging out at a party with people drinking.
Even after one of my friends was raped, my family essentially told me that "I'm not blaming her...but COME ON she was at a party where people were drinking! I'm not saying it's her fault, i'm saying her actions partly contributed to what happened to her!"
I mean, it's like blaming the dude who gets shot walking down harlem. Yeah, walking down a dangerous neighborhood increases the odds of getting shot, but I don't blame him or even suggest that choosing to walk down that street somehow makes him responsible for taking the bullet.
The asshole who shot him is responsible. Saying anything other than "walking in a dangerous neighborhood increases the chances of harm" is a blame game I'm not willing to play.
What makes rape any different from other crimes where the victim's action were at least part of the reason why they ended up victimized?
If someone loses money in a crooked 3 card monty game, no one thinks twice about saying "Dumb move playing the game, dude." The guys running the game are still criminals, but the victim made dumb decisions, too.
Similarly, a woman who goes alone to a frat party and drinks to the point where she has passed out has acted stupidly. That doesn't excuse or minimize the criminality of someone who has sex with her unconscious body, but her foolish decisions are part of the reason why she found herself in that predicament.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Woah.
There's a giant difference between losing money while playing three card monty and having your unconcious body raped by a drunk college dude.
Of course there is. But that doesn't change the fact that the victims of the crimes in my examples acted in unwise ways.
Now, calling a rape victim a slut is a super-douchey thing, obviously. But there's nothing wrong in pointing out that certain unwise actions taken by a rape victim are part of the reason why she ended up getting raped.
Wait a minute. I'm not defending people like kirbybits who seem to act incendiary on purpose, but you are saying that the appropriate response to being offended is to immediately withdraw and go away? It's never appropriate to, you know, communicate why you are upset? You are judging the extremists' views as being, well, off the gourd. And you may be right. But there are plenty of reasonable people that find Mike's and Jerry's actions here offensive, and simply wanted to communicate this to them.
I'd say "if you're offended, you should leave immediately" is a pretty bad behavior to promote.
You're reading between the lines Drez. A meaning that isn't there. No, I said one should not partake in a community that offends them to such a degree. Repeating what I said earlier, if they find it offensive, they should probably stop reading it. They can hem and haw all they want, especially about invisible fake things, but whether they like it or not doesn't mean the topic will go away. If you read penny-arcade for political correctness or (every other shameful topic but rape) then, well, I don't know what to tell you other than you'll be sadly disappointed.
Like I said, I find it hard to have sympathy for a child that touches the hot stove numerous times. At that point it's not "I find this offensive" it's "I like to put myself in uncomfortable situations." Why have I not heard an outcry about topics of rape before? This has been going on for a very long time now. Almost 4+ years since the first rape comic first appeared.
This was reactionary, and to draw attention, nothing more, this was not so much about rape as it was about "look at me, I have an internet opinion." Those are the kinds of people I have no patience for and yes, I wish they would go away, they are not doing anything to help their cause and they're not there to voice their disapproval. They're there to get attention.
You may not agree with me, but that's okay.
Every community has pros and cons. Every single one. I can be offended by many things in a community but the good may outweigh the bad, so I'd want to stay anyway. Or the bad might outweigh the good, but there might be just enough good, or that good may represent a unique goodness I can't get anywhere else, that might compel me to stay. Depending on the type of community, there's not really much wrong with that.
But anyway what you really don't like are people that express fake outrage just to get attention. Sitewhores. I hate them too. That's a far cry from just wanting everyone who doesn't like the response comic/t-shirt to "shut up" or go away, but that's how you made it sound.
On a scale of 1 to 5 (1.Strongly disagree
2.Disagree
3.Neither agree nor disagree
4.Agree
5.Strongly agree)
Please rate the following sentence: The original "dickwolf" comic strip perpetuates rape culture.
Again, why bother. It seems a great many people in this conversation want to talk about the orignial strip and the response from Shakesville. Post there if you want to have that debate.
Debate about the original strip is not the issue, and the controversy doesn't exist because of the original strip.
Ignoring the actual reasons people are blogging and tweeting does not a conversation make.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Does wearing revealing clothing count as a bad decision?
Yes, I too would like to see the decision tree that leads to a woman (or man) being responsible for her own rape.
I think what people are arguing is that, in this society people shouldn't need to avoid patterns of behavior to avoid being raped. Just like people shouldn't need to avoid patters of behavior to avoid being the victims of a driveby shooting.
I feel like there's a disconnect between the concept of a 'rape culture' that promotes the idea of that rape victims somehow bear some responsibility for being raped based on their behavior, and someone just honestly observing the state of the world and realizing it might not be a good idea to do certain things.
I do believe in the concept of 'rape culture,' though I think it's probably a disingenuous term that's easy to manipulate (as the people at Shakesville have proven for us). There's a difference between someone saying "well she deserved it because she drank so much at that party" and someone saying "it's probably not a good idea to get blackout drunk at a frat party where you don't know anyone."
One of those phrases really is blaming the victim, but the other is just acknowledging the unfortunate state of the world that certain places might not be safe for a woman (or a man) in certain situations. Acknowledging that might not have much affect on a crime that's already been committed, but you would be stupid to not realize it and file it away for future reference.
However - that also doesn't mean that you should just accept that rapists will be rapists. They still ought to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and it doesn't change the monstrous nature of their crimes.
"Rape culture" is a great boogie-man for feminists, because it means whatever they want it to mean when making a particular argument.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
To be fair, you can say that about almost any concept in social science. As long as people are arguing in good faith and not moving the goal posts, there's no reason it really needs an exact definition to be used in an argument.
I think we have firmly established that the people most loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" are not arguing in good faith.
Really? Please quote the posts in this thread or in others where people are loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith. I just haven't seen it. I have seen a lot of posters strawmanning rape culture and pretending it means all manner of complete nonsense, but I haven't seen anyone loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith.
My apologies for not being clear. Here we have been very civil. In places likes Shakesville, which are stoking the flames over this entire affair, they are loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" in bad faith, of which we have posted several examples over the course of this thread.
On Shakesville, who cares? Irrelevant to PAX, Penny Arcade, and gamer culture.
In these forums, I disagree.
The entire reason why Shakesville is relevant is because they stoked outrage at the beginning, and continue to do so now. Saying they are not relevant to the overall discussion going on outside these forums is goosery.
Good God of Pedantry. We are not existing as a bubble on these forums, especially when we are discussing a topic that goes far beyond them. Perhaps I should stop presuming that people realize this and preface each post with "In places other than here but relevant to the discussion..."
Again, why bother. It seems a great many people in this conversation want to talk about the orignial strip and the response from Shakesville. Post there if you want to have that debate.
Debate about the original strip is not the issue, and the controversy doesn't exist because of the original stip.
Ignoring the actual reasons people are blogging and tweeting does not a conversation make.
Post on Shakesville if you want to have a debate?
That's funny. I have this game I sometimes play on Shakesville. It's called "How Many Posts Can I Make Before I Get Banned". I think my personal record is like 5 or 6.
My apologies for not being clear. Here we have been very civil. In places likes Shakesville, which are stoking the flames over this entire affair, they are loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" in bad faith, of which we have posted several examples over the course of this thread.
I'm not sure I can keep repeating myself, ignore Shakesville. Melissa McEwan will not be at PAX. Pick a strawman and you ignore the real debate - as suggested approx a dozen times in the last two pages.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Does wearing revealing clothing count as a bad decision?
Yes, I too would like to see the decision tree that leads to a woman (or man) being responsible for her own rape.
Are you saying that wearing revealing clothing is never a bad decision?
It's a bad decision if you are applying for chairman/chairwoman of the Non-Revealing Clothing Society, I guess.
That's funny. I have this game I sometimes play on Shakesville. It's called "How Many Posts Can I Make Before I Get Banned". I think my personal record is like 5 or 6.
Even better would be "How many posts can I make before I'm compared to a literal rapist and also banned?"
My record is two.
I agree that Shakesville is relevant, but I think it's been pretty well established at this point that they are not even remotely close to anything approaching reasonable. I think what people are trying to say is that there are other responses that are a lot more reasonable that we're forgetting about because we keep getting caught up on how absurd that place is (I'm guilty of this because I came here yesterday after being banned twice and had to vent).
My apologies for not being clear. Here we have been very civil. In places likes Shakesville, which are stoking the flames over this entire affair, they are loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" in bad faith, of which we have posted several examples over the course of this thread.
I'm not sure I can keep repeating myself, ignore Shakesville. Melissa McEwan will not be at PAX. Pick a strawman and you ignore the real debate - as suggested approx a dozen times in the last two pages.
Hey two can play that game.
"Ignore Glenn Beck. Glenn Beck is not a liberal. Pick a strawman and you ignore the real debate."
Wait a minute. I'm not defending people like kirbybits who seem to act incendiary on purpose, but you are saying that the appropriate response to being offended is to immediately withdraw and go away? It's never appropriate to, you know, communicate why you are upset? You are judging the extremists' views as being, well, off the gourd. And you may be right. But there are plenty of reasonable people that find Mike's and Jerry's actions here offensive, and simply wanted to communicate this to them.
I'd say "if you're offended, you should leave immediately" is a pretty bad behavior to promote.
You're reading between the lines Drez. A meaning that isn't there. No, I said one should not partake in a community that offends them to such a degree. Repeating what I said earlier, if they find it offensive, they should probably stop reading it. They can hem and haw all they want, especially about invisible fake things, but whether they like it or not doesn't mean the topic will go away. If you read penny-arcade for political correctness or (every other shameful topic but rape) then, well, I don't know what to tell you other than you'll be sadly disappointed.
Like I said, I find it hard to have sympathy for a child that touches the hot stove numerous times. At that point it's not "I find this offensive" it's "I like to put myself in uncomfortable situations." Why have I not heard an outcry about topics of rape before? This has been going on for a very long time now. Almost 4+ years since the first rape comic first appeared.
This was reactionary, and to draw attention, nothing more, this was not so much about rape as it was about "look at me, I have an internet opinion." Those are the kinds of people I have no patience for and yes, I wish they would go away, they are not doing anything to help their cause and they're not there to voice their disapproval. They're there to get attention.
You may not agree with me, but that's okay.
Every community has pros and cons. Every single one. I can be offended by many things in a community but the good may outweigh the bad, so I'd want to stay anyway. Or the bad might outweigh the good, but there might be just enough good, or that good may represent a unique goodness I can't get anywhere else, that might compel me to stay. Depending on the type of community, there's not really much wrong with that.
But anyway what you really don't like are people that express fake outrage just to get attention. Sitewhores. I hate them too. That's a far cry from just wanting everyone who doesn't like the response comic/t-shirt to "shut up" or go away, but that's how you made it sound.
I apologize, that wasn't my intention.
I'm confused, though, because it seems they're, to them at least, honestly attacking these things. They are so right wing in their beliefs and tactics though that it's hard to find a parallel with feminism with what they're doing. You know what I can find a parallel with? Conservative Republicans, that are batshit insane.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
On Shakesville, who cares? Irrelevant to PAX, Penny Arcade, and gamer culture.
In these forums, I disagree.
The entire reason why Shakesville is relevant is because they stoked outrage at the beginning, and continue to do so now. Saying they are not relevant to the overall discussion going on outside these forums is goosery.
Good God of Pedantry. We are not existing as a bubble on these forums, especially when we are discussing a topic that goes far beyond them. Perhaps I should stop presuming that people realize this and preface each post with "In places other than here but relevant to the discussion..."
[/QUOTE]
I find it insulting that you suggest the reason Mike made the decision to remove the t-shirt is because Shakesville asked him to. I'm certainly aware of the content outside these forums, I think better than you. Shit didn't go viral in the Summer. It did now - why?
If you take the fucknoPA tumblr as a representation of the PAX attendees who are discussing this issue, I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Does wearing revealing clothing count as a bad decision?
It's a decision that is more risky, yes. Just like driving over the speed limit is a risky decision.
Did you just draw an equivalency between choice of clothes and an illegal act?
I'd like to focus on the "Is wearing revealing clothes a bad decision?" question by posing a similar situation that is slightly less inflammatory due to the absence of sexual assault.
Let's say that a student is a closeted homosexual male who attends a school with a known homophobic atmosphere. One day, he decides to come to school wearing a dress, make-up, and high heels. He is then beat-up.
Now, I'm not condoning bigotry against homosexuals, and in an ideal world we wouldn't have people attack others for their differences, but can you really say that the boy in this scenario in no way contributed to the circumstances that resulted in him being physically assaulted? He knew what he was doing was a risky decision, but he did it anyway.
I feel that part of the argument we're having here is due to the fact that words like "responsibility" and "fault" are loaded terms that prevent people from talking rationally about this issue.
"Ignore Glenn Beck. Glenn Beck is not a liberal. Pick a strawman and you ignore the real debate."
I do ignore Glenn Beck, I think others should too.
I think you're very good at changing the subject entirely - what do US politics have to do with the issue?
Why would you presume to know my political stance?
suttree on
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
On a scale of 1 to 5 (1.Strongly disagree
2.Disagree
3.Neither agree nor disagree
4.Agree
5.Strongly agree)
Please rate the following sentence: The original "dickwolf" comic strip perpetuates rape culture.
Again, why bother. It seems a great many people in this conversation want to talk about the orignial strip and the response from Shakesville. Post there if you want to have that debate.
Debate about the original strip is not the issue, and the controversy doesn't exist because of the original strip.
Ignoring the actual reasons people are blogging and tweeting does not a conversation make.
You snipped this bit out:
Really? Please quote the posts in this thread or in others where people are loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith. I just haven't seen it. I have seen a lot of posters strawmanning rape culture and pretending it means all manner of complete nonsense, but I haven't seen anyone loudly screaming rape culture in poor faith.
This whole WRBLGRBL is the direct result of people screaming "rape culture" in bad faith and the questionable reaction of the creators to that WRBLGRBL. Without that ridiculous outrage, there would have been no response, no t-shirt, and no tweets.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Does wearing revealing clothing count as a bad decision?
It's a decision that is more risky, yes. Just like driving over the speed limit is a risky decision.
Did you just draw an equivalency between choice of clothes and an illegal act?
Yes. It doesn't matter if one is legal and the other isn't; they are both decisions that carry a hypothetical risk.
Posts
But see, while the community is perhaps built upon the humor of the Penny-Arcade strips, it doesn't emulate the same tone, not even close. If you told someone "I'm going to stab you now," which is a phrase that pops up verbatim at least once (Claw Shrimp strip) and has dozens of variations over the years of Penny-Arcade, you would probably get infracted/jailed/banned before the other guy could even respond. Maybe not in SE++ - I guess it would depend on the context, maybe - but anywhere else I think you would be.
And as you just said to The Cat, you would rather these people not shit up the forums. Bowen said that he'd rather they just shut up, which is pretty much the same thing as wishing someone away as your only presence on a forum is your "voice" - by shutting up, you're pretty much not here. So let me ask you point blank: Would you prefer that the people complaining stay here and voice their opinions even if they wished to stay on the forums, or would you prefer that they left the forums even if all they wanted to do is communicate their anger/annoyance/outrage/whatever? Because that's the reality. The response comic really pissed me off, but I have absolutely no intention of leaving the forums. So, do you wish me away, or not?
<Sarcasm>
Bunch of neckbeard dudebros all up in here!
</Sarcasm>
I'm going to be getting my degree in sociology in the next few months, and even I'll agree that the social sciences aren't exactly consistent (really, they shouldn't even be called "sciences").
If someone loses money in a crooked 3 card monty game, no one thinks twice about saying "Dumb move playing the game, dude." The guys running the game are still criminals, but the victim made dumb decisions, too.
Similarly, a woman who goes alone to a frat party and drinks to the point where she has passed out has acted stupidly. That doesn't excuse or minimize the criminality of someone who has sex with her unconscious body, but her foolish decisions are part of the reason why she found herself in that predicament.
So, no, commenting that a victim of a rape made bad decisions that put them in that situation is not an evidence of "rape culture" any more than saying playing three card monty on the street is stupid evidence of "fraud culture."
Rigorous Scholarship
Wait a minute. I'm not defending people like kirbybits who seem to act incendiary on purpose, but you are saying that the appropriate response to being offended is to immediately withdraw and go away? It's never appropriate to, you know, communicate why you are upset? You are judging the extremists' views as being, well, off the gourd. And you may be right. But there are plenty of reasonable people that find Mike's and Jerry's actions here offensive, and simply wanted to communicate this to them.
I'd say "if you're offended, you should leave immediately" is a pretty bad behavior to promote.
Woah.
There's a giant difference between losing money while playing three card monty and having your unconcious body raped by a drunk college dude.
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
If rape culture had a more concrete definition I believe it would be helpful. As it stands now, the phrase is often used as a cudgel to silence differing (not necessarily even dissenting) opinion.
My family was murdered, I don't care about murder jokes
Some committed suicide, I don't care about suicide jokes
Ive been subjected too the most brutal of violence, and I don't care about violent jokes
If I did, I not only would be a sad individual, but I wouldn't be reading PA comics. I would probably just be reading the Bible or something. They are not saying go rape, go kill, go do X. It is a joke, the blame for being offended rests only on thyself.
They're more than welcome to. I can still want them to shut up. Don't confuse my opinion with me policing them. Which I have no authority to do, I can still voice my displeasure of their company and will likely just ignore them if it bothers me so much.
But I'm pretty hypocritical at times so I'll probably keep arguing rather than ignore them because I wouldn't be in D&D if I didn't like to bicker like a kid fighting over who gets a turn with the Nintendo.
Yes it put them at risk, but the substantial and meaningful fault still lies on the criminal actor. It does no one any good in a situation involving rape to note the victim's fault.
If someone mugs me while I pass through the bad part of town, I'm still filing a police report despite having put myself at risk. And I'll be right to do so.
This is so true. There's all these little supposedly feminist catch phrases that end up sounding so vague when they start getting thrown around. I've tried looking up solid definitions, but those definitions get blurred when seemingly prominent figures in these arguments continuously throw them around like their going out of style regardless of the context of the situation.
Of course, I'm sure the other side has some catch phrases they're abusing as well. I just maybe know those better.
Does wearing revealing clothing count as a bad decision?
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
You're reading between the lines Drez. A meaning that isn't there. No, I said one should not partake in a community that offends them to such a degree. Repeating what I said earlier, if they find it offensive, they should probably stop reading it. They can hem and haw all they want, especially about invisible fake things, but whether they like it or not doesn't mean the topic will go away. If you read penny-arcade for political correctness or (every other shameful topic but rape) then, well, I don't know what to tell you other than you'll be sadly disappointed.
Like I said, I find it hard to have sympathy for a child that touches the hot stove numerous times. At that point it's not "I find this offensive" it's "I like to put myself in uncomfortable situations." Why have I not heard an outcry about topics of rape before? This has been going on for a very long time now. Almost 4+ years since the first rape comic first appeared.
This was reactionary, and to draw attention, nothing more, this was not so much about rape as it was about "look at me, I have an internet opinion." Those are the kinds of people I have no patience for and yes, I wish they would go away, they are not doing anything to help their cause and they're not there to voice their disapproval. They're there to get attention.
You may not agree with me, but that's okay.
I don't know how it gets anymore concrete than that.
In before you tell me that a network of related beliefs has nothing to do with culture.
On Shakesville, who cares? Irrelevant to PAX, Penny Arcade, and gamer culture.
In these forums, I disagree.
Of course there is, but that wasn't his point. His point was that both of these situations are bad and were perpetrated by people who are at fault, but the victims also made poor decisions that enabled these things to happen.
It seems like some people are trying to say "the victim is never at fault and in no way makes it easier for bad things to happen to them ever", which is simply ludicrous. We've got people in America who are in poverty partly because of the system, but also partly because they spend money unwisely. Are we supposed to pretend that the second part is untrue because we don't want to blame the victim?
Yes, I too would like to see the decision tree that leads to a woman (or man) being responsible for her own rape.
I think what people are arguing is that, in this society people shouldn't need to avoid patterns of behavior to avoid being raped. Just like people shouldn't need to avoid patters of behavior to avoid being the victims of a driveby shooting.
It's a decision that is more risky, yes. Just like driving over the speed limit is a risky decision.
I'd argue that strawmanning "rape culture" is using the phrase in bad faith because it's effectively troll baiting at that point and the purpose of troll baiting is almost always to set your prey up to be easily knocked down and have any reasonable points they may have had completely devalued.
On a scale of 1 to 5 (1.Strongly disagree
2.Disagree
3.Neither agree nor disagree
4.Agree
5.Strongly agree)
Please rate the following sentence:
The original "dickwolf" comic strip perpetuates rape culture.
I'd say that from what I've seen on these forums, it hasn't been so bad, but many of the people contributing to this thread are also looking at shakesville, twitter, and every other forum talking about this stuff, so the message mistakenly gets mixed, I'm sure, so some forget exactly what they're arguing against.
Are you saying that wearing revealing clothing is never a bad decision?
Now, calling a rape victim a slut is a super-douchey thing, obviously. But there's nothing wrong in pointing out that certain unwise actions taken by a rape victim are part of the reason why she ended up getting raped.
In some situations, certainly.
Rigorous Scholarship
Every community has pros and cons. Every single one. I can be offended by many things in a community but the good may outweigh the bad, so I'd want to stay anyway. Or the bad might outweigh the good, but there might be just enough good, or that good may represent a unique goodness I can't get anywhere else, that might compel me to stay. Depending on the type of community, there's not really much wrong with that.
But anyway what you really don't like are people that express fake outrage just to get attention. Sitewhores. I hate them too. That's a far cry from just wanting everyone who doesn't like the response comic/t-shirt to "shut up" or go away, but that's how you made it sound.
Again, why bother. It seems a great many people in this conversation want to talk about the orignial strip and the response from Shakesville. Post there if you want to have that debate.
Debate about the original strip is not the issue, and the controversy doesn't exist because of the original strip.
Ignoring the actual reasons people are blogging and tweeting does not a conversation make.
I feel like there's a disconnect between the concept of a 'rape culture' that promotes the idea of that rape victims somehow bear some responsibility for being raped based on their behavior, and someone just honestly observing the state of the world and realizing it might not be a good idea to do certain things.
I do believe in the concept of 'rape culture,' though I think it's probably a disingenuous term that's easy to manipulate (as the people at Shakesville have proven for us). There's a difference between someone saying "well she deserved it because she drank so much at that party" and someone saying "it's probably not a good idea to get blackout drunk at a frat party where you don't know anyone."
One of those phrases really is blaming the victim, but the other is just acknowledging the unfortunate state of the world that certain places might not be safe for a woman (or a man) in certain situations. Acknowledging that might not have much affect on a crime that's already been committed, but you would be stupid to not realize it and file it away for future reference.
However - that also doesn't mean that you should just accept that rapists will be rapists. They still ought to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and it doesn't change the monstrous nature of their crimes.
My apologies for not being clear. Here we have been very civil. In places likes Shakesville, which are stoking the flames over this entire affair, they are loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" in bad faith, of which we have posted several examples over the course of this thread.
The entire reason why Shakesville is relevant is because they stoked outrage at the beginning, and continue to do so now. Saying they are not relevant to the overall discussion going on outside these forums is goosery.
Good God of Pedantry. We are not existing as a bubble on these forums, especially when we are discussing a topic that goes far beyond them. Perhaps I should stop presuming that people realize this and preface each post with "In places other than here but relevant to the discussion..."
Post on Shakesville if you want to have a debate?
That's funny. I have this game I sometimes play on Shakesville. It's called "How Many Posts Can I Make Before I Get Banned". I think my personal record is like 5 or 6.
I'm not sure I can keep repeating myself, ignore Shakesville. Melissa McEwan will not be at PAX. Pick a strawman and you ignore the real debate - as suggested approx a dozen times in the last two pages.
It's a bad decision if you are applying for chairman/chairwoman of the Non-Revealing Clothing Society, I guess.
Even better would be "How many posts can I make before I'm compared to a literal rapist and also banned?"
My record is two.
I agree that Shakesville is relevant, but I think it's been pretty well established at this point that they are not even remotely close to anything approaching reasonable. I think what people are trying to say is that there are other responses that are a lot more reasonable that we're forgetting about because we keep getting caught up on how absurd that place is (I'm guilty of this because I came here yesterday after being banned twice and had to vent).
Hey two can play that game.
"Ignore Glenn Beck. Glenn Beck is not a liberal. Pick a strawman and you ignore the real debate."
I apologize, that wasn't my intention.
I'm confused, though, because it seems they're, to them at least, honestly attacking these things. They are so right wing in their beliefs and tactics though that it's hard to find a parallel with feminism with what they're doing. You know what I can find a parallel with? Conservative Republicans, that are batshit insane.
I find it insulting that you suggest the reason Mike made the decision to remove the t-shirt is because Shakesville asked him to. I'm certainly aware of the content outside these forums, I think better than you. Shit didn't go viral in the Summer. It did now - why?
If you take the fucknoPA tumblr as a representation of the PAX attendees who are discussing this issue, I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken.
Did you just draw an equivalency between choice of clothes and an illegal act?
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
Let's say that a student is a closeted homosexual male who attends a school with a known homophobic atmosphere. One day, he decides to come to school wearing a dress, make-up, and high heels. He is then beat-up.
Now, I'm not condoning bigotry against homosexuals, and in an ideal world we wouldn't have people attack others for their differences, but can you really say that the boy in this scenario in no way contributed to the circumstances that resulted in him being physically assaulted? He knew what he was doing was a risky decision, but he did it anyway.
I feel that part of the argument we're having here is due to the fact that words like "responsibility" and "fault" are loaded terms that prevent people from talking rationally about this issue.
I do ignore Glenn Beck, I think others should too.
I think you're very good at changing the subject entirely - what do US politics have to do with the issue?
Why would you presume to know my political stance?
You snipped this bit out:
This whole WRBLGRBL is the direct result of people screaming "rape culture" in bad faith and the questionable reaction of the creators to that WRBLGRBL. Without that ridiculous outrage, there would have been no response, no t-shirt, and no tweets.
Yes. It doesn't matter if one is legal and the other isn't; they are both decisions that carry a hypothetical risk.