Well, seeing as the caliphate lasted for 500 years, while the pan-arab movement petered out after what a decade or so... It would be nice to see some sort of EU style block arising, but that seems unlikely as well. I don't think they want to co-ordinate their laws, economies, social policies. Some sort of talking shop like ASEAN seems the most likely immediate result of any pan-Arab unity sentiment.
Well, now that I think about it. All of them were considered legitimate and were more unified than the Christian faith. My mistake. Its not coming back though, what with the whole schism and nationalism happening.
In any event, it is good to see long time dictators such as Qaddafi under pressure, and hopefully on the way out. Not having to listen to his absurd rhetoric would be a great boon to the world. Now all that needs to happen to for the puppet state in Arabia to fall.
Also if we can get King Carlos of Spain to tell Hugo Chavez to STFU again. That never gets old.
Well, seeing as the caliphate lasted for 500 years, while the pan-arab movement petered out after what a decade or so... It would be nice to see some sort of EU style block arising, but that seems unlikely as well. I don't think they want to co-ordinate their laws, economies, social policies. Some sort of talking shop like ASEAN seems the most likely immediate result of any pan-Arab unity sentiment.
Well, now that I think about it. All of them were considered legitimate and were more unified than the Christian faith. My mistake. Its not coming back though, what with the whole schism and nationalism happening.
In any event, it is good to see long time dictators such as Qaddafi under pressure, and hopefully on the way out. Not having to listen to his absurd rhetoric would be a great boon to the world. Now all that needs to happen to for the puppet state in Arabia to fall.
Also if we can get King Carlos of Spain to tell Hugo Chavez to STFU again. That never gets old.
AJE's Libyan call-ins consist entirely of people calling for Egypt and Tunisia to invade.
Foreign intervention of any sort will really raise the stakes for the whole region.
If Egypt invades, then the West will freak the fuck out, talking about a new Islamic caliphate being carved out like in the 7th century. Autocrats in the region will be shaking in their boots, or will just attack these revolutionary regimes pre-emptively.
On the other hand intervention from the West will be viewed with extreme suspicion in the region, and could cause who knows what sort of chaos inside the country and out.
I can't see any foreign intervention happening. The US is occupying two countires in MENA and have already bitten off more than they can chew, the UK is the only other western power with the force projection to make intervention possible and we're flat broke even if there was any political will.
As for Egypt and Tunisia? I think they have their own serious problems to worry about right now, why anyone would even think intervention from them is possible let alone likley is beyond me.
Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Anyone have a few spare aircraft carriers?
F-22's can't operate from an aircraft carriar, if only there was a country nearby the US had a presence in...
More seriously I don't see the US getting involved for already stated reasons and the political climate atm. Maybe this is a good chance for the EU to put the Typhoon to use.
Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Anyone have a few spare aircraft carriers?
F-22's can't operate from an aircraft carriar, if only there was a country nearby the US had a presence in...
More seriously I don't see the US getting involved for already stated reasons and the political climate atm. Maybe this is a good chance for the EU to put the Typhoon to use.
I never said anything about F-22's. But an aircraft carrier off the coast of Libya is probably the most likley way the US would enforce a no fly zone.
I don't see any of the EU nations rushing to volenteer for that job. For a start one of Libyas neighbours would have to give them an air base to operate from. Remember very few EU countries have carriers and those that do only have one or two which spend most of their time in port being refitted.
I don't mind admitting the UK's carriers are crap, not to mention in a recent absurd decision we decided to scrap all our sea harriers and have nothing to replace them with for a decade. France only has one carrier, Spain and Italy have two (only small STOVL ones though) , but if past experience is any guide they won't be using them to enforce any international treaties.
Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Anyone have a few spare aircraft carriers?
F-22's can't operate from an aircraft carriar, if only there was a country nearby the US had a presence in...
There really isn't a country close enough with a US military base for the US Air Force to effectively enforce a no-fly zone.
Using the US Navy would be a logistical stretch. Could they even intercept bombing runs in time from a carrier? Libya is a big country.
They wouldn't have to operate from a carrier. They'd likely fly orbits inside the country, somewhat near an airbase, using a refueling plane of some kind to increase how long a flight can stay in the air, as well as a radar plane to allow them to detect planes as soon as they take off.
South host on
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Well, seeing as the caliphate lasted for 500 years, while the pan-arab movement petered out after what a decade or so... It would be nice to see some sort of EU style block arising, but that seems unlikely as well. I don't think they want to co-ordinate their laws, economies, social policies. Some sort of talking shop like ASEAN seems the most likely immediate result of any pan-Arab unity sentiment.
Well, now that I think about it. All of them were considered legitimate and were more unified than the Christian faith. My mistake. Its not coming back though, what with the whole schism and nationalism happening.
In any event, it is good to see long time dictators such as Qaddafi under pressure, and hopefully on the way out. Not having to listen to his absurd rhetoric would be a great boon to the world. Now all that needs to happen to for the puppet state in Arabia to fall.
Also if we can get King Carlos of Spain to tell Hugo Chavez to STFU again. That never gets old.
NEVER.
I totally forgot about that, that was good sutff.
I'm not one for monarchies, but if we had to pick a World Emperor, King Carlos is up there on my list of candidates.
You can refuel the fighters in mid-air all you want that doesn't mean pilots can operate them effectively for more than 8 hours.
The logistical commitment this would take is bigger than the years of playing the game Risk has led you to believe. It would be easier just to take out Libya's Air Force while it's on the ground.
The US has air bases in Italy (including one in Sicily), Turkey, and Spain. If they wanted to use ground-based aircraft to enforce a no-fly zone, they could pull it off.
Is it legal to track aircraft responsible for violating no-fly zones and destroy them after they landed? Not all aircraft mind you, only ones that have taken part in specifically targetting civilians.
Witch_Hunter_84 on
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
Is it legal to track aircraft responsible for violating no-fly zones and destroy them after they landed? Not all aircraft mind you, only ones that have taken part in specifically targetting civilians.
Well then you're not just enforcing a no-fly zone, you're bombing Libyan air bases and more than likely killing non-combatants like mechanics and refuelers in the process.
The US has air bases in Italy (including one in Sicily), Turkey, and Spain. If they wanted to use ground-based aircraft to enforce a no-fly zone, they could pull it off.
I don't know, sure those countries are in the neighbourhood but by the time a plane takling off in Turkey got to Libya the planes they set out to intercept would have done what they set out to do and returned to their base.
Casual on
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South hostI obey without questionRegistered Userregular
You can refuel the fighters in mid-air all you want that doesn't mean pilots can operate them effectively for more than 8 hours.
The logistical commitment this would take is bigger than the years of playing the game Risk has led you to believe. It would be easier just to take out Libya's Air Force while it's on the ground.
They'd fly off a carrier, but they would orbit near an enemy airbase, to stop anything from launching. The Navy has everything it needs to do this right on its carriers: fighters, refueling craft, radar planes. And yes, pilots cannot stay up indefinitely. But a carrier has more than just one squadron of fighters, they typically have four. So even if one of the Super Hornet squadrons is being entirely used for its tanker role, you could still have one squadron airborne, one on standby, and one resting/repairing.
So no, I did not just blurt that out with as much thought as I would into a Risk move.
South host on
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
The US has air bases in Italy (including one in Sicily), Turkey, and Spain. If they wanted to use ground-based aircraft to enforce a no-fly zone, they could pull it off.
Indeed. I know a guy who is deployed in N Italy, as a F-16 pilot . Or at least he was last time I heard from him
You can refuel the fighters in mid-air all you want that doesn't mean pilots can operate them effectively for more than 8 hours.
The logistical commitment this would take is bigger than the years of playing the game Risk has led you to believe. It would be easier just to take out Libya's Air Force while it's on the ground.
They'd fly off a carrier, but they would orbit near an enemy airbase, to stop anything from launching. The Navy has everything it needs to do this right on its carriers: fighters, refueling craft, radar planes. And yes, pilots cannot stay up indefinitely. But a carrier has more than just one squadron of fighters, they typically have four. So even if one of the Super Hornet squadrons is being entirely used for its tanker role, you could still have one squadron airborne, one on standby, and one resting/repairing. So no, I did not just blurt that out with as much thought as I would into a Risk move.
I misunderstood you when you said "they wouldn't have to operate from a carrier". Actually, you just straight out misstated your position. Because what you're describing is still operating from a carrier.
I still think it's a stretch. By the time we could muster authorization from the security council the deed would be largely symbolic.
Hoz on
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South hostI obey without questionRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Ok, yeah, I misspoke. What I meant to say was that they would not have to launch directly from the carrier to intercept bombers that just took off, rather they could be loitering nearby, having launched earlier.
South host on
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
I'm fairly sure the distance between the US airbase in Sicily and Tripoli would be like a 15-minute flight for a supersonic fighter jet, so they wouldn't really need to use a carrier, especially if there's a threat of the Libyan military retaliating against the carriers with artillery and missiles.
Something different; I know China is trying too keep its citizens from hearing too much of all this, but what about the masses of Chinese studying and working abroad? I hope they bring some of it with them..
Something different; I know China is trying too keep its citizens from hearing too much of all this, but what about the masses of Chinese studying and working abroad? I hope they bring some of it with them..
Wouldn't make any difference if they did. I've no doubt that more of this information than you'd think does make it's way to the average Chinese person. The Chinese police state and information surpression is more effective by orders of magnitude than anything you'll find in the middle east. I recently read (I think it was on BBC) that they spend almost as much on internal policing as they do on defence.
I'm fairly sure the distance between the US airbase in Sicily and Tripoli would be like a 15-minute flight for a supersonic fighter jet, so they wouldn't really need to use a carrier, especially if there's a threat of the Libyan military retaliating against the carriers with artillery and missiles.
I forgot about Sicily.
And I doubt Libya has the capability to take out carriers. Well, unless we're talking an asymmetric type of threat where they drive a small boat full of explosives into one.
Unless they get a precise location and lob cruise missiles at it, it's unlikely. Keeping in mind that if they sank a carrier it would trigger a blood frenzy in the US and we would launch yet another crazy war on China's dime. Carriers are really damn hard to take out though, and post Cole post 9/11 it's unlikely a ship could get anywhere near it. As I understand it they don't generally go anywhere alone, they got destroyers and the like all around at good distances for defense.
A carrier is almost always safer than an actual airbase, actually
I'm sure we could get a Tom Clancy plot out of this situation though.
Yeah, taking out a carrier admist the escort fleet they have with them out at sea with a small fleet of boats/ships? I have a hard time seeing that being even remotely plausible after what happened to the Cole.
I'm farily confident anything unresponsive to communications that attempts to close with a carrier at sea is going to be sunk in a very violent manner long before reaching the carrier itself.
NAS Sigonella in Sicily is about 340 miles from Tripoli (around 360 without flying over Malta or any of Sicily). Which means an F-16 could easily make it in under an hour. And an F-22 could reliably be on-site in under 20 minutes. In a UN-sanctioned operation Malta may also provide a viable airfield, which shortens the distance to Tripoli to 220 miles (about 12 minutes for an F-22). Benghazi is a bit farther at 470 miles and would likely be better served by Souda Bay in Crete (which is 320 miles away).
But then I'm not really sure where Libya's airfields would be. The major population centers are on the coast, but that doesn't mean there can't be an airfield 150 miles inland.
President Rex on
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South hostI obey without questionRegistered Userregular
Wouldn't they just declare the no-fly zone over the areas of heavy protesting, and then just continuously rotate patrols in and out? Anything past that would be a pretty extensive operation.
If a no-fly zone is declared with any kind of real authority, I really doubt the Libyan air force would dare launch any of their aircraft, it would be a total suicide mission against a modern fighter.
Wouldn't they just declare the no-fly zone over the areas of heavy protesting, and then just continuously rotate patrols in and out? Anything past that would be a pretty extensive operation.
If a no-fly zone is declared with any kind of real authority, I really doubt the Libyan air force would dare launch any of their aircraft, it would be a total suicide mission against a modern fighter.
You do know how batshit insane Gadaffi is right? Certainly enough to order his air force to attack anyway. Who knows if they would obay in the knowlage they would be up against the USAF.
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Also if we can get King Carlos of Spain to tell Hugo Chavez to STFU again. That never gets old.
NEVER.
I totally forgot about that, that was good sutff.
People watching videos from Al-Jazeera and BBC on unrest are arrested in Zimbabwe.
I can't see any foreign intervention happening. The US is occupying two countires in MENA and have already bitten off more than they can chew, the UK is the only other western power with the force projection to make intervention possible and we're flat broke even if there was any political will.
As for Egypt and Tunisia? I think they have their own serious problems to worry about right now, why anyone would even think intervention from them is possible let alone likley is beyond me.
Possibly. But who will enforce it?
Still, if they do, it would be nice to get some use out of our fancy f-22s.
Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Anyone have a few spare aircraft carriers?
More seriously I don't see the US getting involved for already stated reasons and the political climate atm. Maybe this is a good chance for the EU to put the Typhoon to use.
I never said anything about F-22's. But an aircraft carrier off the coast of Libya is probably the most likley way the US would enforce a no fly zone.
I don't see any of the EU nations rushing to volenteer for that job. For a start one of Libyas neighbours would have to give them an air base to operate from. Remember very few EU countries have carriers and those that do only have one or two which spend most of their time in port being refitted.
I don't mind admitting the UK's carriers are crap, not to mention in a recent absurd decision we decided to scrap all our sea harriers and have nothing to replace them with for a decade. France only has one carrier, Spain and Italy have two (only small STOVL ones though) , but if past experience is any guide they won't be using them to enforce any international treaties.
Using the US Navy would be a logistical stretch. Could they even intercept bombing runs in time from a carrier? Libya is a big country.
They wouldn't have to operate from a carrier. They'd likely fly orbits inside the country, somewhat near an airbase, using a refueling plane of some kind to increase how long a flight can stay in the air, as well as a radar plane to allow them to detect planes as soon as they take off.
I'm not one for monarchies, but if we had to pick a World Emperor, King Carlos is up there on my list of candidates.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Except, what air base?
You can refuel the fighters in mid-air all you want that doesn't mean pilots can operate them effectively for more than 8 hours.
The logistical commitment this would take is bigger than the years of playing the game Risk has led you to believe. It would be easier just to take out Libya's Air Force while it's on the ground.
Well then you're not just enforcing a no-fly zone, you're bombing Libyan air bases and more than likely killing non-combatants like mechanics and refuelers in the process.
I don't know, sure those countries are in the neighbourhood but by the time a plane takling off in Turkey got to Libya the planes they set out to intercept would have done what they set out to do and returned to their base.
So no, I did not just blurt that out with as much thought as I would into a Risk move.
Indeed. I know a guy who is deployed in N Italy, as a F-16 pilot . Or at least he was last time I heard from him
I still think it's a stretch. By the time we could muster authorization from the security council the deed would be largely symbolic.
Wouldn't make any difference if they did. I've no doubt that more of this information than you'd think does make it's way to the average Chinese person. The Chinese police state and information surpression is more effective by orders of magnitude than anything you'll find in the middle east. I recently read (I think it was on BBC) that they spend almost as much on internal policing as they do on defence.
And I doubt Libya has the capability to take out carriers. Well, unless we're talking an asymmetric type of threat where they drive a small boat full of explosives into one.
A carrier is almost always safer than an actual airbase, actually
I'm sure we could get a Tom Clancy plot out of this situation though.
I'm farily confident anything unresponsive to communications that attempts to close with a carrier at sea is going to be sunk in a very violent manner long before reaching the carrier itself.
But then I'm not really sure where Libya's airfields would be. The major population centers are on the coast, but that doesn't mean there can't be an airfield 150 miles inland.
If a no-fly zone is declared with any kind of real authority, I really doubt the Libyan air force would dare launch any of their aircraft, it would be a total suicide mission against a modern fighter.
You do know how batshit insane Gadaffi is right? Certainly enough to order his air force to attack anyway. Who knows if they would obay in the knowlage they would be up against the USAF.
Thanks Iran, your sense of timing is just lovely.