Seems in that case the failure is in matching a high rank team against trade chat scrubs. But we all knew that was going to happen. And by "we all" I mean everyone but Blizzard, apparently.
It all comes down to the troubles of herding cats.... why arent there 40 man raids anymore? Why did they release 10 man versions of all 25 man raids? Why the hard focus on 5 mans? Its becuase Blizzard knows how hard it is to form large groups of strangers and keep them focused on the task at hand. Its always easier to get 2 or 3 or 5 people together than it is to get 10 or 15. Shit they even took the 15 man bracket out of RBGs. What does that tell you?
MistaCreepy on
PS3: MistaCreepy::Steam: MistaCreepy::360: Dead and I don't feel like paying to fix it.
BG's and Arena are pulling from the same reward system right? That's probably a big issue.
They got people to do Arena in at least small part because the best possible rewards are in Arena.
So make the best possible rewards in RBG's.
People will still do Arena as a fast convenience, and RBG's are the big leagues.
Which makes perfect sense given the ethos of the game.
Except to people who are good at arena, who will cry and bitch for eternity.
I don't think that would fix much of anything, since the issue is primarily one of logistics. It also seems to take a dump on anyone who enjoys the competitive nature of arenas (if you have a good comp and cap out on gear) by forcing them to do RBGs to remain competitive -- kind of like when you had to raid to fill out certain slots with the best items (a problem which, as far as I'm aware, is at about the lowest point its ever been).
Edit: Think about it. You don't fix a disinterest in content by just throwing better rewards into it (unless its current rewards are lacking and the only thing keeping more people from doing it). When raiding was a huge "slamming dick in car door" experience in Vanilla/TBC and only 5% of the player base was seeing anything beyond the bottom feeder raid content, the fix wasn't to just put even better rewards into raids; it was to tone down the dick slamming. Something like that needs to happen with RBGs to make them an actual success.
RBG's as they stand are not the better alternative to arenas. Blizzard wanted them to be...That was the plan... it failed. Miserably. Emarassingly. If they just threw higher level purps in there without actually fixing the problems they would be fucked up for it.
MistaCreepy on
PS3: MistaCreepy::Steam: MistaCreepy::360: Dead and I don't feel like paying to fix it.
It looked like a lot of the problems described on the last page were about queue times, matchmaking and organizational issues.
If you have more people interested in them in principle, then you'll get higher participation and queue related and matchmaking issues in particular may naturally sort themselves out.
I'm giving Blizzard the benefit of the doubt in that they actually DO have a sophisticated matchmaking system in play that right now is just saying "aww, fuck it" because there isn't a big pool to match with.
The inability to lose rating in a BG though is pretty dumb and I don't understand why that is. I guess it's so that if you PUG with a bad group you don't lose rating? That just makes a horrible assumption about how careful players engage in PVP on blizzards part.
You're supposed to be able to lose rating at the higher levels, or at least that's how they've claimed it will work.
Again, just putting the best rewards into something is not at all a good way to get people interested in something that is flawed. Shit, Blizzard already learned that lesson with arenas in TBC. People interested in raiding who didn't want to do arenas at all felt compelled to do them to get season 2 gear to be competitive in raids until they were getting the equivalent T5+ pieces. Of course, their "fix" to that basically ruined PvP for all but the hardcore arena players for the rest of TBC and WotLK, but hey.
An issue with rated BG's is that one faction is currently pvp'ing alot more than another. There was a pvp horde guild on my server, but they got to sit in queues for the majority of their time.
I can't understand how Blizz thought they could introduce pretty much the same ladder system you have in arena, and yet not allow you come up against other teams who were the same faction.
3 per node with 1 floater I guess hold 3 and win. Sounds like ALOT of travelling around and strategic stikes.
Could be fun.
*now = on the ptr.
This could be kind of cool, I always liked AB. But then again, I like any BG besides the Capture the Flag ones. Those just seem to either drag on for 15 minutes, or be over in five.
Ratings on gear and weapons really forced Arena into a very small niche... it was almost impossible for new players to break into arena due to gear disparity. Also whats the point of even doing arenas if you aren't going to get any rewards?
Hopefully by opening the system up to a wider selection of players, Blizzard will spend more time tuning and improving arenas.
Also the bolder colored gear and Tier 2 weapons still ensure that high ranked players ravenous epeens are satisfied.
Lastly, even with gear roughly the same good players will still beat bad players.... now bad players cant blame your gear for why they suck.
MistaCreepy on
PS3: MistaCreepy::Steam: MistaCreepy::360: Dead and I don't feel like paying to fix it.
The simple fix for rated BGs is to have them give honor once you are capped on conquest for the week, make them give the same honor as normal BGs, perhaps even like 10% more. As it stands, I have ZERO incentive to do a rated BG once I have done my arena games for the week.
An issue with rated BG's is that one faction is currently pvp'ing alot more than another. There was a pvp horde guild on my server, but they got to sit in queues for the majority of their time.
I can't understand how Blizz thought they could introduce pretty much the same ladder system you have in arena, and yet not allow you come up against other teams who were the same faction.
Wow you can't fight rated teams of the same faction? That is just retarded. What the hell was blizzrd thinking?
An issue with rated BG's is that one faction is currently pvp'ing alot more than another. There was a pvp horde guild on my server, but they got to sit in queues for the majority of their time.
I can't understand how Blizz thought they could introduce pretty much the same ladder system you have in arena, and yet not allow you come up against other teams who were the same faction.
Wow you can't fight rated teams of the same faction? That is just retarded. What the hell was blizzrd thinking?
The whole point of the battleground system is that you fight the other faction.
I don't think I'd play 10 man AB with 3 teams of 3 and a rover.
I'd have 4 people switching between the two less contested control points, and 6 scrapping for a third, or just constantly making the rounds.
If you have a team of 4 with stout/annoyingly effective healing to disrupt caps, then letting that team of 6 just plunder the other 3 points is going to probably net you a profit over the course of 1600 points, unless the other team is just flat out better.
An issue with rated BG's is that one faction is currently pvp'ing alot more than another. There was a pvp horde guild on my server, but they got to sit in queues for the majority of their time.
I can't understand how Blizz thought they could introduce pretty much the same ladder system you have in arena, and yet not allow you come up against other teams who were the same faction.
Wow you can't fight rated teams of the same faction? That is just retarded. What the hell was blizzrd thinking?
The whole point of the battleground system is that you fight the other faction.
Yes but if you have a rated system, you should be allowed to fight the same faction. Otherwise the top 20 teams could conceivably never fight each other. I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with same faction rated BGs.
The simple fix for rated BGs is to have them give honor once you are capped on conquest for the week, make them give the same honor as normal BGs, perhaps even like 10% more. As it stands, I have ZERO incentive to do a rated BG once I have done my arena games for the week.
I swear I read that they fixed them to work this way a while ago. I wouldn't know personally since I never do them, but I know there was a post or some hotfix patch notes about it. Did it not actually go through?
I don't think I'd play 10 man AB with 3 teams of 3 and a rover.
I'd have 4 people switching between the two less contested control points, and 6 scrapping for a third, or just constantly making the rounds.
If you have a team of 4 with stout/annoyingly effective healing to disrupt caps, then letting that team of 6 just plunder the other 3 points is going to probably net you a profit over the course of 1600 points, unless the other team is just flat out better.
I think his point is that if/once you control 3 points, that's how he'd want to do it. There aren't 3 other points if you're "winning" AB, only 2. 4 people trying to hold 3 nodes would definitely be insufficient.
Rogues are going to be really effective/cheesy in flag-based control point BGs after 4.1 with full/faster speed stealth.
The simple fix for rated BGs is to have them give honor once you are capped on conquest for the week, make them give the same honor as normal BGs, perhaps even like 10% more. As it stands, I have ZERO incentive to do a rated BG once I have done my arena games for the week.
I swear I read that they fixed them to work this way a while ago. I wouldn't know personally since I never do them, but I know there was a post or some hotfix patch notes about it. Did it not actually go through?
I know last time I did a rated bg (a couple weeks ago) I was at full conquest and I wasn't getting any honor. They might have changed it since.
It must be broken, then. This was months ago when they posted about the change (I think within the first month of release) since apparently they recognized how stupid it was to get nothing (not during beta, of course). I don't know what the deal is if it's not working, but since it relates to a problem in PvP, I'm sure they've got their best intern on the job.
Edit: I can't click through to the links on any WoW pages, but just Google search results text previews lead me to believe this was supposedly fixed back at the end of December.
Edit 2: Wait, were you at full Conquest points or just at the weekly cap? Maybe we're talking about two different situations here.
It must be broken, then. This was months ago when they posted about the change (I think within the first month of release) since apparently they recognized how stupid it was to get nothing (not during beta, of course). I don't know what the deal is if it's not working, but since it relates to a problem in PvP, I'm sure they've got their best intern on the job.
Edit: I can't click through to the links on any WoW pages, but just Google search results text previews lead me to believe this was supposedly fixed back at the end of December.
Edit 2: Wait, were you at full Conquest points or just at the weekly cap? Maybe we're talking about two different situations here.
I just wanted to complain again how awful 2v2 is right now being on a healer team. I have had so many 45 minute games where the arena just ends, it is sooooo annoying.
edit: I think blizzard went too far with resilience/HP
2vs2 is awful. I don't know how many times it needs to be said. Blizz don't balance for this bracket at all, but the problems that are occuring with regards to these 45 min games are due to the new mechanics for healing.
3vs3 is what pvp is (supposedly) balanced around, and while my experience is extremely limited, I can tell you that my resto shaman in reasonable pvp gear (3.4kish resilience) can drop from nearly 100% to dead very easily with some of the combined burst going on.
One game vs a Lock / DK / belf Holy paladin, I dropped without being able to use a spell with a cast. I had ES on myself, I used Stoneclaw twice, I was able to NS a big heal, and I used grounding once or twice as well. I spent most of my time in that game locked down in one form or another.
Considering resilience is going to be alot less effective come the next patch, I'd debate that idea that people are already too tough.
i don't know what blizzard was thinking with the 4.06 changes to DKs. they're now totally unpeelable and near-immortal when going defensive (sup 20k DS heals).
What are 5's like these days? I haven't done 5's since BC but it strikes me that if the problem is that every class is batman, running a 5s team with two healers and three very very good DPS could probably win you some points. Just keep the healers spread out and let them prop each other up while your DPS does what they can...
mage/mage and mage/rogue pretty much owned early BC 2's as I recall so... I wouldn't say it was that balanced.
Though they certainly took on a different tone because of some of the differences in skills... healing was not what it is in Lich King and Today. There were no deathknights and their shitty pre-nerf gargoyles. Some of the "secondary" specs were still exactly that.
I recall 2's in BC feeling a lot like an extension of dueling. Which is not intrinsically balanced.
From what I understand, Blizzard didn't bother with the 2s bracket since it would extremely difficult to blance it without screwing up everything (not like it stopped them in the past). Thus why it doesn't count towards anything (titles, rating etc). My holy pally buddie and I just do it for points for this fact.
Posts
They got people to do Arena in at least small part because the best possible rewards are in Arena.
So make the best possible rewards in RBG's.
People will still do Arena as a fast convenience, and RBG's are the big leagues.
Which makes perfect sense given the ethos of the game.
Except to people who are good at arena, who will cry and bitch for eternity.
Edit: Think about it. You don't fix a disinterest in content by just throwing better rewards into it (unless its current rewards are lacking and the only thing keeping more people from doing it). When raiding was a huge "slamming dick in car door" experience in Vanilla/TBC and only 5% of the player base was seeing anything beyond the bottom feeder raid content, the fix wasn't to just put even better rewards into raids; it was to tone down the dick slamming. Something like that needs to happen with RBGs to make them an actual success.
This idea does absolutely nothing to address the deficiencies of RBGs as a competitive venue.
If you have more people interested in them in principle, then you'll get higher participation and queue related and matchmaking issues in particular may naturally sort themselves out.
I'm giving Blizzard the benefit of the doubt in that they actually DO have a sophisticated matchmaking system in play that right now is just saying "aww, fuck it" because there isn't a big pool to match with.
The inability to lose rating in a BG though is pretty dumb and I don't understand why that is. I guess it's so that if you PUG with a bad group you don't lose rating? That just makes a horrible assumption about how careful players engage in PVP on blizzards part.
Again, just putting the best rewards into something is not at all a good way to get people interested in something that is flawed. Shit, Blizzard already learned that lesson with arenas in TBC. People interested in raiding who didn't want to do arenas at all felt compelled to do them to get season 2 gear to be competitive in raids until they were getting the equivalent T5+ pieces. Of course, their "fix" to that basically ruined PvP for all but the hardcore arena players for the rest of TBC and WotLK, but hey.
I can't understand how Blizz thought they could introduce pretty much the same ladder system you have in arena, and yet not allow you come up against other teams who were the same faction.
Discuss.
3 per node with 1 floater I guess hold 3 and win. Sounds like ALOT of travelling around and strategic stikes.
Could be fun.
*now = on the ptr.
SW:Tor - Tao - Kryatt Dragon Server
This could be kind of cool, I always liked AB. But then again, I like any BG besides the Capture the Flag ones. Those just seem to either drag on for 15 minutes, or be over in five.
Being able to win 5 matches a week in the 500 brackets for epic weapons is silly.
Nonsense. Dropping the ratings off the gear (including the T1 Weapon) was the only good PvP decision they've made in cata.
No, they shouldn't.
Hopefully by opening the system up to a wider selection of players, Blizzard will spend more time tuning and improving arenas.
Also the bolder colored gear and Tier 2 weapons still ensure that high ranked players ravenous epeens are satisfied.
Lastly, even with gear roughly the same good players will still beat bad players.... now bad players cant blame your gear for why they suck.
Wow you can't fight rated teams of the same faction? That is just retarded. What the hell was blizzrd thinking?
The whole point of the battleground system is that you fight the other faction.
I'd have 4 people switching between the two less contested control points, and 6 scrapping for a third, or just constantly making the rounds.
If you have a team of 4 with stout/annoyingly effective healing to disrupt caps, then letting that team of 6 just plunder the other 3 points is going to probably net you a profit over the course of 1600 points, unless the other team is just flat out better.
Yes but if you have a rated system, you should be allowed to fight the same faction. Otherwise the top 20 teams could conceivably never fight each other. I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with same faction rated BGs.
Rogues are going to be really effective/cheesy in flag-based control point BGs after 4.1 with full/faster speed stealth.
I know last time I did a rated bg (a couple weeks ago) I was at full conquest and I wasn't getting any honor. They might have changed it since.
Edit: I can't click through to the links on any WoW pages, but just Google search results text previews lead me to believe this was supposedly fixed back at the end of December.
Edit 2: Wait, were you at full Conquest points or just at the weekly cap? Maybe we're talking about two different situations here.
I was at the weekly cap
edit: I think blizzard went too far with resilience/HP
i hate you
on a personal level
burst right now is almost as terrible as it was in S8 at higher brackets
shrug, I am only at like 1500 rating, but to me if a game takes 45 minutes and no one can kill anyone else there is a problem
3vs3 is what pvp is (supposedly) balanced around, and while my experience is extremely limited, I can tell you that my resto shaman in reasonable pvp gear (3.4kish resilience) can drop from nearly 100% to dead very easily with some of the combined burst going on.
One game vs a Lock / DK / belf Holy paladin, I dropped without being able to use a spell with a cast. I had ES on myself, I used Stoneclaw twice, I was able to NS a big heal, and I used grounding once or twice as well. I spent most of my time in that game locked down in one form or another.
Considering resilience is going to be alot less effective come the next patch, I'd debate that idea that people are already too tough.
Don't like 45 min 2vs2 games? Don't do 2vs2.
Or...
5 Moonkin
Yup. Alternatively, play double DPS and win or lose in a one-minute blaze of glory.
all druids
Not really, I havent played since season 2 waay back in BC but 2v2 as well as 3v3 were fairly well balanced back then.
edit: I mean the current season is my first season back
Though they certainly took on a different tone because of some of the differences in skills... healing was not what it is in Lich King and Today. There were no deathknights and their shitty pre-nerf gargoyles. Some of the "secondary" specs were still exactly that.
I recall 2's in BC feeling a lot like an extension of dueling. Which is not intrinsically balanced.
Funny, i was actually thinking of pitching this idea to some friends. Thinking the team name should be KILL THE DRUID (if there is enough room).
There is a video somewhere with 5 a man moonkin team.