As an FYI, you can do pretty much the same thing with a traditional cell phone, it just takes a bit more work.
See, every cell tower can tell you what direction you're in from that cell tower if you're within range, and you make or receive a phone call. If you're within range of at least two cell towers, the cell phone company knows pretty much exactly where you are, anyhow, if they care to figure it out.
Those records, however, are generally only kept on-hand for between 90 days and a year. Also, it's some trouble to pull them, and figure things out.
if by some trouble you mean "a huge pain in the ass"
I can't think of a situation right now where it could be used to extract data without getting a warrant first, because there's no exigency, if you think there's evidence of a crime on the phone you seize it and turn it off and get a warrant. You don't do it roadside.
I can't find any stories that confirm that the scanners were used during a traffic stop, only that the cops could do that or were planning to in certain situations and then the agency won't give the ACLU any information (which is shady).
The Detroit News (spit) has an article saying the device can download stuff even without the cell phone owner's knowledge but I don't know how it could be secretly used since you have to physically plug it into a phone for it to work?
I would imagine they just ask you to hand over your phone, knowing that most people will do it either right away or after some brief intimidation. It's the same way that sometimes the cops will ask to search your car - you waive the warrant requirement if you consent to the search.
The best way to avoid being tracked is to not own a cell phone, to not use the internet except at home, to not participate in social networking in any way, to communicate almost entirely by mail, to not own a credit card nor to do anything except take out cash from the same ATM and to pay for everything with cash...
Basically, to not function in modern society.
Of course, you also need to spend money to function in society, but we'd be even more up in arms if we found out that apple had been secretly siphoning money out of our bank accounts.
So how long until Apple releases the next iOS patch to remove this?
Remember when it was going to be a HUGE DEAL that the iPhone 4 lost some signal bars if you held the metal casing? Oh right, Apple doesn't either. People already voluntarily post their whereabouts on foursquare and facebook.
Robman on
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
So how long until Apple releases the next iOS patch to remove this?
Maybe I am really weird but I think it's rad. I hope they just make a setting for it and default that to off.
Edit: I mean, Robman already said it but I literally posted my map on the first page of this thread.
I think it is totally rad too, the gaming options alone are awesome, and other business and utility would be great, but I just have a problem when people make money by taking your privacy without offering you anything in return. And in this case it is "taking your privacy" for, literally, no reason.
Then again I don't own a personal cell phone right now. And use cash almost exclusively.
Void Slayer on
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
edited April 2011
So for some reason my iPhone thinks it was on the Cupertino campus back in August of 2010; strange, because I owned my phone at the time and as memory serves me, I was in New York at the time.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
So the file in question is a SQLLite database in a cache directory that contains a table called CellLocations that contains location information for cell towers the phone has connected to. Nobody has identified any of this data being transmitted in any dumps of network traffic from either iOS or iTunes.
Why cache that data? So that when location-aware applications are started by the user, you can fish a rough position fix out of the cache based on what cell towers the phone recently talked to, saving the user some battery life and speeding up a common operation performed by many popular applications.
Could someone with access to your phone or computer get ahold of this list? Yes. Mind you if they have access to either device you're already in serious trouble and they could do a hell of a lot more to you than get a list of cell towers your phone has talked to.
All in all this strikes me as an enormous non-issue. Must be a slow news day.
So the file in question is a SQLLite database in a cache directory that contains a table called CellLocations that contains location information for cell towers the phone has connected to. Nobody has identified any of this data being transmitted in any dumps of network traffic from either iOS or iTunes.
Why cache that data? So that when location-aware applications are started by the user, you can fish a rough position fix out of the cache based on what cell towers the phone recently talked to, saving the user some battery life and speeding up a common operation performed by many popular applications.
Could someone with access to your phone or computer get ahold of this list? Yes. Mind you if they have access to either device you're already in serious trouble and they could do a hell of a lot more to you than get a list of cell towers your phone has talked to.
All in all this strikes me as an enormous non-issue. Must be a slow news day.
Not only is it a slow news day, but it's a slow news day using news that is a year old.
I don't see this as particularly bad for the mere reason that cell tower triangulation is very inaccurate. Not only that, but this data is already held by the telcos anyway and it is actually pretty damned helpful and is part of what makes Core Location so damned good.
So the file in question is a SQLLite database in a cache directory that contains a table called CellLocations that contains location information for cell towers the phone has connected to. Nobody has identified any of this data being transmitted in any dumps of network traffic from either iOS or iTunes.
Why cache that data? So that when location-aware applications are started by the user, you can fish a rough position fix out of the cache based on what cell towers the phone recently talked to, saving the user some battery life and speeding up a common operation performed by many popular applications.
Could someone with access to your phone or computer get ahold of this list? Yes. Mind you if they have access to either device you're already in serious trouble and they could do a hell of a lot more to you than get a list of cell towers your phone has talked to.
All in all this strikes me as an enormous non-issue. Must be a slow news day.
Not only is it a slow news day, but it's a slow news day using news that is a year old.
I don't see this as particularly bad for the mere reason that cell tower triangulation is very inaccurate. Not only that, but this data is already held by the telcos anyway and it is actually pretty damned helpful and is part of what makes Core Location so damned good.
Yes, it's held by the telcos. And by law, if the police want it, they have to go get a warrant. And if anyone else wants it - no dice.
What Apple's done is exposed this data in such a way that it's not difficult to get your hands on it now. Which should bother you. No other phone on the market does this.
So the file in question is a SQLLite database in a cache directory that contains a table called CellLocations that contains location information for cell towers the phone has connected to. Nobody has identified any of this data being transmitted in any dumps of network traffic from either iOS or iTunes.
Why cache that data? So that when location-aware applications are started by the user, you can fish a rough position fix out of the cache based on what cell towers the phone recently talked to, saving the user some battery life and speeding up a common operation performed by many popular applications.
Could someone with access to your phone or computer get ahold of this list? Yes. Mind you if they have access to either device you're already in serious trouble and they could do a hell of a lot more to you than get a list of cell towers your phone has talked to.
All in all this strikes me as an enormous non-issue. Must be a slow news day.
There's no reason to save as much data as it does for those kind of applications though.
So the file in question is a SQLLite database in a cache directory that contains a table called CellLocations that contains location information for cell towers the phone has connected to. Nobody has identified any of this data being transmitted in any dumps of network traffic from either iOS or iTunes.
Why cache that data? So that when location-aware applications are started by the user, you can fish a rough position fix out of the cache based on what cell towers the phone recently talked to, saving the user some battery life and speeding up a common operation performed by many popular applications.
Could someone with access to your phone or computer get ahold of this list? Yes. Mind you if they have access to either device you're already in serious trouble and they could do a hell of a lot more to you than get a list of cell towers your phone has talked to.
All in all this strikes me as an enormous non-issue. Must be a slow news day.
Not only is it a slow news day, but it's a slow news day using news that is a year old.
I don't see this as particularly bad for the mere reason that cell tower triangulation is very inaccurate. Not only that, but this data is already held by the telcos anyway and it is actually pretty damned helpful and is part of what makes Core Location so damned good.
Yes, it's held by the telcos. And by law, if the police want it, they have to go get a warrant. And if anyone else wants it - no dice.
What Apple's done is exposed this data in such a way that it's not difficult to get your hands on it now. Which should bother you. No other phone on the market does this.
Well, they're the only ones who've made it accessible to me, the guy who owns the phone.
If anything, that's an improvement.
I mean it's also more accessible to "guy who steals my laptop", but so's my financial info and a dozen other things I'm more worried about than "cell towers my phone has connected to"
So how long until Apple releases the next iOS patch to remove this?
Maybe I am really weird but I think it's rad. I hope they just make a setting for it and default that to off.
Edit: I mean, Robman already said it but I literally posted my map on the first page of this thread.
No I agree, I'm thinking this is probably more beneficial than harmful. This information probably already largely exists, and the details from the phone company are probably even more exact than on the phone.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Seems like there's an update available for the iPhone today. Probably fixes this.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
what sort of App can i use to make a pretty map of every where i've been?
Deebaser on
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
edited April 2011
It's worth mentioning that if you have a jailbroken phone, this utility will wipe the database.
I assume you will have to re-run the app every so often to stay squeaky clean... but at the very least I would recommend cleaning it up before selling it, as even a full-on system restore / DFU wipe removes this data.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
So how long until Apple releases the next iOS patch to remove this?
Maybe I am really weird but I think it's rad. I hope they just make a setting for it and default that to off.
Edit: I mean, Robman already said it but I literally posted my map on the first page of this thread.
No I agree, I'm thinking this is probably more beneficial than harmful. This information probably already largely exists, and the details from the phone company are probably even more exact than on the phone.
Disagree!
Even if it is useful for some, that doesn't mean it's useful for all, and this is the core of my objection. Should you be able to impose your permissive view of privacy on others? The guiding principle should be: When in doubt, opt for less.
People already voluntarily post their whereabouts on foursquare and facebook.
Voluntary, discreet (i.e. one use triggers one location reveal only) opt-in is not equivalent to involuntary constant tracking. You're suggesting that because I give to charity, it's OK for someone to take my wallet.
I'm erring on the side of "product we didn't ship and forgot to disable." Because I'm a programmer and know how that shit goes down. Plus, like I said, the logs from the cell phone company are way more detailed and can still be taken by the court. They don't go for as long a period, maybe, but I don't know how long the apple one goes to say if it's longer or not.
The usefulness of that feature outweighs it's cost. Hey suddenly your airplane crashes and your cell phone was sending a tracking signal out. Yay your life is saved.
I don't feel bad for people that get caught cheating and have to pay more child support or murdered a son of a bitch. The technology is already in use, it does not phase me that my phone is storing the numbers as well as their end. I think I read that it wasn't even accurate.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
It doesn't phase you, but it might phase others. That you don't care about others is irrelevant... they still have a privacy expectation that shouldn't be infringed by involuntary, secret, unstoppable timestamped location tracking.
Ad an opt-in, and a switch to disable at will, and I'm sold.
I assume these locations are more exact than plain cell triangulation, since it probably uses the GPS for a better lock every once in a while.
I'm having trouble finding the site I read it on a few days back but I couldv'e sworn I saw that it doesn't use exact locations but a grid-like location system that's about as accurate as gps was before ~2001 down to a few hundred yards.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
I assume these locations are more exact than plain cell triangulation, since it probably uses the GPS for a better lock every once in a while.
I'm having trouble finding the site I read it on a few days back but I couldv'e sworn I saw that it doesn't use exact locations but a grid-like location system that's about as accurate as gps was before ~2001 down to a few hundred yards.
The program that displays the data uses that system but the actual database entries have no such limitation.
Donkey Kong on
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
Ah well, I'm finding it hard to be more upset at the exactness of the location when a similar system has been in place for pretty much as long as cell phones have been around. Just because it is on my phone now and it may be used as evidence instead of the logs from the cell company is pretty much immaterial. There's hardly a difference.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
The difference is that people don't know about this one and its info is freely available on your computer.
I know about it and I'm ok with it and, because my phone is jailbroken, I could delete it if I wanted. But the fact that other people cannot opt out sucks.
Donkey Kong on
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
Why are you not up in arms about cell phone services that keep the same information, but more exact, then?
Who says I'm not?
The main reasons why I'm less animated about cellular services themselves storing this info are:
1) court order is harder to obtain for cellular records
2) There's no clear Freedom from Personal Intrusion (right to privacy) in the Constitution, so all these battles need to be fought individually.
3) There's no good law protecting your cellphone's location records - if you're arrested, there's nothing to stop LEOs from syncing your phone and downloading all the location data.
4) You can turn off provider cell tower tracking on many phones, by choosing the "E911 Only" option or similar.
5) The cellular companies don't store the data in cleartext on easily exposed, insecure home PCs - hacking Verizon's tracking datafarm is much harder than hacking my desktop.
---
"Because the cellular companies do it, it should be no big deal for your phone to do it." = "Because I walk past security cameras, it should be no big deal for someone to follow me with a videocamera all day." Maybe it's not a big deal for you, but you can't assume it will be for everyone, and ought not suggest it should be for everyone.
The difference is that people don't know about this one and its info is freely available on your computer.
I know about it and I'm ok with it and, because my phone is jailbroken, I could delete it if I wanted. But the fact that other people cannot opt out sucks.
Well, it may have been unintentional. I assume a patch will be released shortly that fixes it. If not, then I will change my stance. Besides, you can protect your phone from being synced, I thought?
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Why are you not up in arms about cell phone services that keep the same information, but more exact, then?
Who says I'm not?
The main reasons why I'm less animated about cellular services themselves storing this info are:
1) court order is harder to obtain for cellular records
2) There's no clear Freedom from Personal Intrusion (right to privacy) in the Constitution, so all these battles need to be fought individually.
3) There's no good law protecting your cellphone's location records - if you're arrested, there's nothing to stop LEOs from syncing your phone and downloading all the location data.
4) You can turn off provider cell tower tracking on many phones, by choosing the "E911 Only" option or similar.
5) The cellular companies don't store the data in cleartext on easily exposed, insecure home PCs - hacking Verizon's tracking datafarm is much harder than hacking my desktop.
---
"Because the cellular companies do it, it should be no big deal for your phone to do it." = "Because I walk past security cameras, it should be no big deal for someone to follow me with a videocamera all day." Maybe it's not a big deal for you, but you can't assume it will be for everyone, and ought not suggest it should be for everyone.
1) pretty sure the court has to obtain a warrant to get property as well -- will probably all happen at the same time
2) it's not really personal intrusion, like I said, it falls into the same boat as the cell system records that are just as easy to obtain, maybe a few steps more but they will obtain them in a criminal trial
3) I think you can prevent your phone from being synced unless you authorize it
4) I don't think so, I think the cell phone companies record it anyways -- however e911 location only applies to actual tracking applications used by companies with work cell phones, for obvious reasons
5) You're right, but unless you jail break your phone no one is getting it there, and you can encrypt your own text -- which, again, may be fixed with a patch in the near future
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Why cache that data? So that when location-aware applications are started by the user, you can fish a rough position fix out of the cache based on what cell towers the phone recently talked to, saving the user some battery life and speeding up a common operation performed by many popular applications.
That's fine, then cache the last 24 hours.
You made a comment in [chat] the other night comparing this to a browser cache. I know it was in jest, but I thought about exploring that comparison a little bit.
If the phone had native tools to:
1) Temporarily turn off location caching (analogous to InPrivate Browsing)
2) Allow the user to view and delete the cache
3) Allow the user to delete individual cache entries
4) Allow the user to control how long the cache is kept
...and if these native tools were easy to use, in plain language, then I don't think this would be a problem.
(Bonus points if the phone could be configured to clear the cache every time it's turned off.)
The issue isn't just that this information is being stored, it's that the owner of the device isn't given (what I would consider to be) basic control over that storage.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Agreed, and that goes to my 2) above: It is personal intrusion, because the person did not choose. Even if provider tracking happens, it doesn't follow that additional tracking becomes OK. Each intrusion is distinct. If you key my car, I won't automatically be OK with you smashing my headlights as well!
So how long until Apple releases the next iOS patch to remove this?
Remember when it was going to be a HUGE DEAL that the iPhone 4 lost some signal bars if you held the metal casing? Oh right, Apple doesn't either. People already voluntarily post their whereabouts on foursquare and facebook.
You seem to think this is somehow evidence that Apple hasn't done anything wrong rather than Apple fans buying products for a fashionable logo without any consideration of functionality. Apple at this point is a sacred cow.
Well like I keep saying, I'm not going to jump the gun as of now because it just screams of "oops."
Oops isn't an excuse. This is why I'm of the firm belief that every developer needs to have the Therac-25 case drilled into their heads.
A cell phone OS is not safety-critical software. If it were, your phone would cost $5 million dollars and it would take 6 years to get through all of the layers of process to push out even the tinniest bug fixes.
Bugs will be a fact of life forever, because writing all software as if it were for radiology departments would cost more money than exists on this planet.
Developers forgetting to expire old versions of cached data is probably in the Top 5 of all time most common bugs currently present in most software. It's a super common, super benign mistake that in 99.9999999999999% of cases is not indicative of any malice.
Why cache that data? So that when location-aware applications are started by the user, you can fish a rough position fix out of the cache based on what cell towers the phone recently talked to, saving the user some battery life and speeding up a common operation performed by many popular applications.
That's fine, then cache the last 24 hours.
You made a comment in [chat] the other night comparing this to a browser cache. I know it was in jest, but I thought about exploring that comparison a little bit.
If the phone had native tools to:
1) Temporarily turn off location caching (analogous to InPrivate Browsing)
2) Allow the user to view and delete the cache
3) Allow the user to delete individual cache entries
4) Allow the user to control how long the cache is kept
...and if these native tools were easy to use, in plain language, then I don't think this would be a problem.
(Bonus points if the phone could be configured to clear the cache every time it's turned off.)
The issue isn't just that this information is being stored, it's that the owner of the device isn't given (what I would consider to be) basic control over that storage.
I actually didn't mean it in jest. I think it's about equivalent in terms of severity and danger (as in, not very, and certainly not news-worthy). My home address is in the contacts app. My banking password is in 1password. Plane ticket receipts that indicate when I will be on vacation are in yojimbo. Persistent cookies that would let an attacker hijack my identity on a large number of sites are in the browser cache on both my phone and laptop.
All of these are of far more concern to me than a list of old cell tower connections, were either device to be stolen.
Additionally, there is the equivalent of private browsing here: put the phone in airplane mode. No cell towers are being contacted, and you're leaving no trail of such contacts. Now you're not just hiding from your own phone, you're actually not giving your cell company data on where you are either.
Honestly, there are a huge number of caches in iOS, almost none of which are user-controllable, because Apple isn't in the business of making gargantuan Linuxesque monstrosity interfaces with reams of preferences controlling minutiae most users simply do not comprehend. I think that's a valid choice that's worked out well for them, and I don't think this rises to the level of something that absolutely needs to be user-controlable.
If you want something that lets you micro-manage A-GPS fixation caching, which could be a perfectly valid desire, you probably want a maemo or something designed more for hacking than general ease of use.
I actually didn't mean it in jest. I think it's about equivalent in terms of severity and danger (as in, not very, and certainly not news-worthy). My home address is in the contacts app. My banking password is in 1password. Plane ticket receipts that indicate when I will be on vacation are in yojimbo. Persistent cookies that would let an attacker hijack my identity on a large number of sites are in the browser cache on both my phone and laptop.
All of these are of far more concern to me than a list of old cell tower connections, were either device to be stolen.
While I don't disagree that the vector for exploitation is narrow, and the intent is likely benign, all of your examples above are things that you chose to do. A person with greater preference for privacy could avoid all of these things, but not the location cache.
// Maximum time (in millis) that a record is valid for, before it needs
// to be refreshed from the server.
private static final long MAX_CELL_REFRESH_RECORD_AGE = 12 * 60 * 60 * 1000; // 12 hours
private static final long MAX_WIFI_REFRESH_RECORD_AGE = 48 * 60 * 60 * 1000; // 48 hours
// Cache sizes
private static final int MAX_CELL_RECORDS = 50;
private static final int MAX_WIFI_RECORDS = 200;
So, I don't know. FYI. I still think it was a simple oversight on Apple's part.
Posts
Tons of agencies have those
I can't think of a situation right now where it could be used to extract data without getting a warrant first, because there's no exigency, if you think there's evidence of a crime on the phone you seize it and turn it off and get a warrant. You don't do it roadside.
I can't find any stories that confirm that the scanners were used during a traffic stop, only that the cops could do that or were planning to in certain situations and then the agency won't give the ACLU any information (which is shady).
The Detroit News (spit) has an article saying the device can download stuff even without the cell phone owner's knowledge but I don't know how it could be secretly used since you have to physically plug it into a phone for it to work?
Of course, you also need to spend money to function in society, but we'd be even more up in arms if we found out that apple had been secretly siphoning money out of our bank accounts.
Remember when it was going to be a HUGE DEAL that the iPhone 4 lost some signal bars if you held the metal casing? Oh right, Apple doesn't either. People already voluntarily post their whereabouts on foursquare and facebook.
Maybe I am really weird but I think it's rad. I hope they just make a setting for it and default that to off.
Edit: I mean, Robman already said it but I literally posted my map on the first page of this thread.
I think it is totally rad too, the gaming options alone are awesome, and other business and utility would be great, but I just have a problem when people make money by taking your privacy without offering you anything in return. And in this case it is "taking your privacy" for, literally, no reason.
Then again I don't own a personal cell phone right now. And use cash almost exclusively.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Why cache that data? So that when location-aware applications are started by the user, you can fish a rough position fix out of the cache based on what cell towers the phone recently talked to, saving the user some battery life and speeding up a common operation performed by many popular applications.
Could someone with access to your phone or computer get ahold of this list? Yes. Mind you if they have access to either device you're already in serious trouble and they could do a hell of a lot more to you than get a list of cell towers your phone has talked to.
All in all this strikes me as an enormous non-issue. Must be a slow news day.
Not only is it a slow news day, but it's a slow news day using news that is a year old.
I don't see this as particularly bad for the mere reason that cell tower triangulation is very inaccurate. Not only that, but this data is already held by the telcos anyway and it is actually pretty damned helpful and is part of what makes Core Location so damned good.
Yes, it's held by the telcos. And by law, if the police want it, they have to go get a warrant. And if anyone else wants it - no dice.
What Apple's done is exposed this data in such a way that it's not difficult to get your hands on it now. Which should bother you. No other phone on the market does this.
Ars breaks it all down.
There's no reason to save as much data as it does for those kind of applications though.
Well, they're the only ones who've made it accessible to me, the guy who owns the phone.
If anything, that's an improvement.
I mean it's also more accessible to "guy who steals my laptop", but so's my financial info and a dozen other things I'm more worried about than "cell towers my phone has connected to"
Ars article Angel posted says read access to the database is restricted to root while it's on the phone, so that shouldn't be a concern.
No I agree, I'm thinking this is probably more beneficial than harmful. This information probably already largely exists, and the details from the phone company are probably even more exact than on the phone.
I assume you will have to re-run the app every so often to stay squeaky clean... but at the very least I would recommend cleaning it up before selling it, as even a full-on system restore / DFU wipe removes this data.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Disagree!
Even if it is useful for some, that doesn't mean it's useful for all, and this is the core of my objection. Should you be able to impose your permissive view of privacy on others? The guiding principle should be: When in doubt, opt for less.
Voluntary, discreet (i.e. one use triggers one location reveal only) opt-in is not equivalent to involuntary constant tracking. You're suggesting that because I give to charity, it's OK for someone to take my wallet.
I'm erring on the side of "product we didn't ship and forgot to disable." Because I'm a programmer and know how that shit goes down. Plus, like I said, the logs from the cell phone company are way more detailed and can still be taken by the court. They don't go for as long a period, maybe, but I don't know how long the apple one goes to say if it's longer or not.
The usefulness of that feature outweighs it's cost. Hey suddenly your airplane crashes and your cell phone was sending a tracking signal out. Yay your life is saved.
I don't feel bad for people that get caught cheating and have to pay more child support or murdered a son of a bitch. The technology is already in use, it does not phase me that my phone is storing the numbers as well as their end. I think I read that it wasn't even accurate.
Ad an opt-in, and a switch to disable at will, and I'm sold.
I'm having trouble finding the site I read it on a few days back but I couldv'e sworn I saw that it doesn't use exact locations but a grid-like location system that's about as accurate as gps was before ~2001 down to a few hundred yards.
The program that displays the data uses that system but the actual database entries have no such limitation.
I know about it and I'm ok with it and, because my phone is jailbroken, I could delete it if I wanted. But the fact that other people cannot opt out sucks.
Who says I'm not?
The main reasons why I'm less animated about cellular services themselves storing this info are:
1) court order is harder to obtain for cellular records
2) There's no clear Freedom from Personal Intrusion (right to privacy) in the Constitution, so all these battles need to be fought individually.
3) There's no good law protecting your cellphone's location records - if you're arrested, there's nothing to stop LEOs from syncing your phone and downloading all the location data.
4) You can turn off provider cell tower tracking on many phones, by choosing the "E911 Only" option or similar.
5) The cellular companies don't store the data in cleartext on easily exposed, insecure home PCs - hacking Verizon's tracking datafarm is much harder than hacking my desktop.
---
"Because the cellular companies do it, it should be no big deal for your phone to do it." = "Because I walk past security cameras, it should be no big deal for someone to follow me with a videocamera all day." Maybe it's not a big deal for you, but you can't assume it will be for everyone, and ought not suggest it should be for everyone.
Well, it may have been unintentional. I assume a patch will be released shortly that fixes it. If not, then I will change my stance. Besides, you can protect your phone from being synced, I thought?
1) pretty sure the court has to obtain a warrant to get property as well -- will probably all happen at the same time
2) it's not really personal intrusion, like I said, it falls into the same boat as the cell system records that are just as easy to obtain, maybe a few steps more but they will obtain them in a criminal trial
3) I think you can prevent your phone from being synced unless you authorize it
4) I don't think so, I think the cell phone companies record it anyways -- however e911 location only applies to actual tracking applications used by companies with work cell phones, for obvious reasons
5) You're right, but unless you jail break your phone no one is getting it there, and you can encrypt your own text -- which, again, may be fixed with a patch in the near future
That's fine, then cache the last 24 hours.
You made a comment in [chat] the other night comparing this to a browser cache. I know it was in jest, but I thought about exploring that comparison a little bit.
If the phone had native tools to:
1) Temporarily turn off location caching (analogous to InPrivate Browsing)
2) Allow the user to view and delete the cache
3) Allow the user to delete individual cache entries
4) Allow the user to control how long the cache is kept
...and if these native tools were easy to use, in plain language, then I don't think this would be a problem.
(Bonus points if the phone could be configured to clear the cache every time it's turned off.)
The issue isn't just that this information is being stored, it's that the owner of the device isn't given (what I would consider to be) basic control over that storage.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Oops isn't an excuse. This is why I'm of the firm belief that every developer needs to have the Therac-25 case drilled into their heads.
You seem to think this is somehow evidence that Apple hasn't done anything wrong rather than Apple fans buying products for a fashionable logo without any consideration of functionality. Apple at this point is a sacred cow.
A cell phone OS is not safety-critical software. If it were, your phone would cost $5 million dollars and it would take 6 years to get through all of the layers of process to push out even the tinniest bug fixes.
Bugs will be a fact of life forever, because writing all software as if it were for radiology departments would cost more money than exists on this planet.
Developers forgetting to expire old versions of cached data is probably in the Top 5 of all time most common bugs currently present in most software. It's a super common, super benign mistake that in 99.9999999999999% of cases is not indicative of any malice.
I actually didn't mean it in jest. I think it's about equivalent in terms of severity and danger (as in, not very, and certainly not news-worthy). My home address is in the contacts app. My banking password is in 1password. Plane ticket receipts that indicate when I will be on vacation are in yojimbo. Persistent cookies that would let an attacker hijack my identity on a large number of sites are in the browser cache on both my phone and laptop.
All of these are of far more concern to me than a list of old cell tower connections, were either device to be stolen.
Additionally, there is the equivalent of private browsing here: put the phone in airplane mode. No cell towers are being contacted, and you're leaving no trail of such contacts. Now you're not just hiding from your own phone, you're actually not giving your cell company data on where you are either.
Honestly, there are a huge number of caches in iOS, almost none of which are user-controllable, because Apple isn't in the business of making gargantuan Linuxesque monstrosity interfaces with reams of preferences controlling minutiae most users simply do not comprehend. I think that's a valid choice that's worked out well for them, and I don't think this rises to the level of something that absolutely needs to be user-controlable.
If you want something that lets you micro-manage A-GPS fixation caching, which could be a perfectly valid desire, you probably want a maemo or something designed more for hacking than general ease of use.
While I don't disagree that the vector for exploitation is narrow, and the intent is likely benign, all of your examples above are things that you chose to do. A person with greater preference for privacy could avoid all of these things, but not the location cache.
info: https://github.com/packetlss/android-locdump
Android source code from LocationCache:
// Maximum time (in millis) that a record is valid for, before it needs // to be refreshed from the server. private static final long MAX_CELL_REFRESH_RECORD_AGE = 12 * 60 * 60 * 1000; // 12 hours private static final long MAX_WIFI_REFRESH_RECORD_AGE = 48 * 60 * 60 * 1000; // 48 hours // Cache sizes private static final int MAX_CELL_RECORDS = 50; private static final int MAX_WIFI_RECORDS = 200;So, I don't know. FYI. I still think it was a simple oversight on Apple's part.