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school is for pretentious assholes

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Posts

  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    wow it's so weird that your "painfully obtuse literature" list contains no contemporary works written in a modern and familiar tongue

    And everything has hidden meaning. Every work. That is a false dichotomy, differentiating between works where everything has meaning and works where some things have meaning. It's not like some works have deeper referents and some don't; every single thing ever written with words has been an amalgamation of signs and signifiers, of constructs relating to a priori meaning and the phenomenal indicating the presence of the noumenal. You can babble all you want about having done literary analysis for "six years," but you don't seem to grasp a very simple tenet of critical theory; everything has a meaning that exists in tension between the author and the reader (or just the reader in poststructuralist thought). There is literally no book ever written that is not a series of "hidden meanings," because there does not exist a word that is itself devoid of them.

    Either I'm phrasing this poorly, or you are just not reading what I'm saying.

    I'm not saying there's a dichotomy at all, I'm saying that there are some works where the symbols make sense, and others where the author basically has to spend a paragraph describing a curtain to make the symbol work; some integrate with the novel in a way that feels organic and believable, and others where the author basically shoehorns it in so hard that they break the entire pace and narrative just to make it work.

    If you want to make a point, fine, but if you're going to break your entire novel for five minutes just to make it work, I really don't see why you used it like this to begin with.

    And I get that analysis is entirely dependent upon the tension between author and reader. Hamlet wouldn't be as much fun to analyze if Shakespeare had just come out and said "It's not an Oedipus story, you sick fucks," nor do I think that should be the case. I'm not criticizing the use of symbolism at all in a novel, I'm just saying that, in my mind, some authors did a better job of it than others.

    And I'll admit that it's easier for me to enjoy a work if I don't have to spend five minutes parsing the Ye Olde English dictionary to find out that Hamlet just told Ophelia to go work in a whore house. But that's not the only criteria by which I judge a work, and I think it's disingenuous of you to say that. I'm sure there are contemporary works that I have studied, I just can't remember them off the top of my head right now, which is a dilemma that's been exacerbated by studying Victorian and Romantic literature for the last three months, so if I remember some of them, I'll get back to you.

    I really don't get why you're making this personal. I'll be the first person to admit that some, if not all of this, is complete bullshit in the context of legitimate literary discussion. I'm just venting some perceived frustration about the nature of academic literature. I'm not saying that Forster, Tennyson, Chopin, or Austen were bad writers, or that their works aren't worth the attention the receive. I'm just saying that they really didn't pique my interest, and studying them for days or weeks at a time really did not help that.

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  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I think I get what you're saying

    but I also really, really like direct authorial or narratorial presence in works

    so I really like when he or she intrudes upon the piece to highlight something or speak to the reader directly (less so when he feels the need to explicitly call attention to the thing's existence as fiction, but nonetheless)

    so "flow" in that sense has never been a big concern of mine

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    And regarding Shakespeare, I love his work, but that may be because I had an awesome AP Lit teacher who basically put everything into plain English for us.

    Also, get thee to a nunnery remains one of my favorite literary quotes.

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  • ScrumtrulescentScrumtrulescent Registered User
    edited April 2011
    and then after you've got the extended metaphor figured out, recall that the first line is 'my life had stood as a loaded gun' - although it's all about a gun and its owner, the gun itself is a metaphor for her life. how does it change the reading of the poem? who would her owner be? etc etc

    i realize this started to read like an exam question but i really love this poem and i get excited

    dude, fuck yes for getting excited about certain pieces. When I get excited about something I just can't wait to tell everyone I know that's interested in this stuff about it. I did a project on William Ernest Henley and I had to teach one of his poems for forty minutes in class, and my teacher commended me for stripping a relatively simple poet's work basically BARE. I left not a stone unturned in that poem.

    And that first line is what threw me off, because I was ready for the poem to be about her life, but not ready for it to be about her as a gun. I knew where I started, and where I was going, but I didn't understand how the road in between went.

    Ima go back and read it with this understanding now, and then I'll post that Henley poem

    SoaL wrote: »
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

    i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    it's less than you're stupid than shakespeare literally made up a language for his characters to speak. a lot of it made its way into modern language because he's a badass, but if you're reading unannotated shakespeare then i have no idea how you've managed to understand any of it, and i'm surprised you haven't thrown the book out the nearest window

    who doesn't teach shakespeare in an annotated edition? that's just ludicrous.

    Our textbooks were rather lightly annotated in the bottom margins, and with my piebald knowledge of historical trivia I could see some places where I personally would have placed an annotation; not because it fundamentally changed the meaning of the words but because hey, here is something cool that really makes the setting/characters/etc 'pop'.

    The teachers had to do extra legwork, pausing to do the job of an annotation. So it was slow reading too.

    When in groups, there was usually someone with a dictionary or smart phone out, to essentially translate the text.

  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    i also really love ts eliot's the wasteland, but i'm not about to teach that one over the internet

  • ScrumtrulescentScrumtrulescent Registered User
    edited April 2011
    And regarding Shakespeare, I love his work, but that may be because I had an awesome AP Lit teacher who basically put everything into plain English for us.

    Also, get thee to a nunnery remains one of my favorite literary quotes.

    OH MY GOD YES

    Branagh in the Nunnery scene is BRILLIANT

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJBOAkMsSc

    so good so good so good so good

    SoaL wrote: »
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

    i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.
  • SnitSnit Registered User
    edited April 2011
    As a sidenote, I love that we can find words visually appealing. I think it's so odd that certain words just...

    I can't explain it. They click. They fit. For me, some words, whether I'm looking at them or hearing them or thinking or speaking them...they give me the same feeling that you get when you put the last piece into the puzzle, and it just fits perfectly. Some words are just...perfect.

    ya fart lmao

  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The only way I can get poetry to sound right is if I set some sort of beat to it;

    So of course I end up spending far too much time 'trying out' different beats and 'trying out' different voices to speak/sing the words,

    and if I can't find the right combination of beat and voice I just get frustrated further.

  • ScrumtrulescentScrumtrulescent Registered User
    edited April 2011
    The only way I can get poetry to sound right is if I set some sort of beat to it;

    So of course I end up spending far too much time 'trying out' different beats and 'trying out' different voices to speak/sing the words,

    and if I can't find the right combination of beat and voice I just get frustrated further.

    Muse are you a musician?

    SoaL wrote: »
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

    i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.
  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I think I get what you're saying

    but I also really, really like direct authorial or narratorial presence in works

    so I really like when he or she intrudes upon the piece to highlight something or speak to the reader directly (less so when he feels the need to explicitly call attention to the thing's existence as fiction, but nonetheless)

    so "flow" in that sense has never been a big concern of mine

    I guess that's where you and I differ; if an author can insert themselves into a text in a way that doesn't break the narrative, then I'm all for it.

    If they have to spend five minutes describing what a flower means though, they probably should just back off a bit.

    Again, that's just me.

    Also, this is a good discussion. I like this discussion. Thank you for having it with me.

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  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    it's less than you're stupid than shakespeare literally made up a language for his characters to speak. a lot of it made its way into modern language because he's a badass, but if you're reading unannotated shakespeare then i have no idea how you've managed to understand any of it, and i'm surprised you haven't thrown the book out the nearest window

    who doesn't teach shakespeare in an annotated edition? that's just ludicrous.

    Our textbooks were rather lightly annotated in the bottom margins, and with my piebald knowledge of historical trivia I could see some places where I personally would have placed an annotation; not because it fundamentally changed the meaning of the words but because hey, here is something cool that really makes the setting/characters/etc 'pop'.

    The teachers had to do extra legwork, pausing to do the job of an annotation. So it was slow reading too.

    When in groups, there was usually someone with a dictionary or smart phone out, to essentially translate the text.

    yeah, i mean, you're never going to read shakespeare as quickly as stephen king or even faulkner. but shakespeare rewards effort. if you try to have fun with it, then it'll open itself up to you.

    i really recommend getting up and feeling silly and trying to give a performance with some flair as opposed to just reading from the book.

  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    i also really love ts eliot's the wasteland, but i'm not about to teach that one over the internet

    Thank you.

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  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The best way to read Shakespeare is to read it with somebody who has some idea of what's going on.

    Otherwise it can feel you're just reading a lot of words that seem disjointed, and don't make a lot of sense in modern English.

    Then again, I'm stupid about that sort of thing.

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  • SoaLSoaL fantastic Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

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  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The only way I can get poetry to sound right is if I set some sort of beat to it;

    So of course I end up spending far too much time 'trying out' different beats and 'trying out' different voices to speak/sing the words,

    and if I can't find the right combination of beat and voice I just get frustrated further.

    Muse are you a musician?

    Haha, not really, no. Though I am very aural in my thought processes. Discussions like these I hear in a different voice as compared to other types of discussions.

    I liked Macbeth because Lady Macbeth just fit so perfectly with one of my pre-existing visual archetypes, 'ambitious woman', who has a very specific face and voice.

    I never did find the face for Macbeth but I did find a voice; I don't know if that voice was already in repository or not, but it is now.

  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA5ZXr4Gyk0

    I took, by the throat, the circumcise`d dog, and smote him--
    thus!


    i mean, tell me that language isn't musical. othello expresses regret at his actions, and paints himself as he has always seen himself - as a war hero, beset by forces on all sides, and someone who was always in the right, even if he was technically in the wrong.

    that is some relevant shit.

  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    yes, he is talking about a weiner!

    shakespeare talks about dongs all the time. most of romeo and juliet is dick jokes.

  • ScrumtrulescentScrumtrulescent Registered User
    edited April 2011
    The only way I can get poetry to sound right is if I set some sort of beat to it;

    So of course I end up spending far too much time 'trying out' different beats and 'trying out' different voices to speak/sing the words,

    and if I can't find the right combination of beat and voice I just get frustrated further.

    Muse are you a musician?

    Haha, not really, no. Though I am very aural in my thought processes. Discussions like these I hear in a different voice as compared to other types of discussions.

    I liked Macbeth because Lady Macbeth just fit so perfectly with one of my pre-existing visual archetypes, 'ambitious woman', who has a very specific face and voice.

    I never did find the face for Macbeth but I did find a voice; I don't know if that voice was already in repository or not, but it is now.

    I know it sounded like a joking question, but you have me really interested in the way your brain works. I find it fascinating how all of our brains can work in different ways. I take "let me pick your brain" to an entirely new level.

    Also t Orikae on the topic of Dickinson: It seems to me that she's lamenting the fact that she has no control over her own life in that last stanza? I dunno I feel like a stumped student right now.

    SoaL wrote: »
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

    i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I should give Shakespeare another look sometime in the future, maybe work out voices ahead of time.

  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    SoaL wrote: »
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

    i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.

  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Orik, can you explain e.e. cummings to me?

    Because everybody I talk to loves him to pieces, but his work doesn't really pique my interest, and it makes me feel dumb.

    Which I probably am, but I want to know why.

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  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    Also t Orikae on the topic of Dickinson: It seems to me that she's lamenting the fact that she has no control over her own life in that last stanza? I dunno I feel like a stumped student right now.

    yeah! i mean, like i said earlier, there is no right or wrong answer, and i didn't have one in mind when i wrote that question. but that seems to make sense, doesn't it?

    let it percolate in yo noggin for a bit. pm me if you want to talk about it.

    english is at its best when it's like a puzzle, i think. you just gotta pull and twist shit until it falls into place.

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    e.e. cummings is about the only poetry that I've managed to actually enjoy

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  • ScrumtrulescentScrumtrulescent Registered User
    edited April 2011
    Orik, can you explain e.e. cummings to me?

    Because everybody I talk to loves him to pieces, but his work doesn't really pique my interest, and it makes me feel dumb.

    Which I probably am, but I want to know why.

    you just got childish gambino stuck in my head

    I won't post the lyric because it's kinda sexist and raunchy

    but

    EE Cummings is involved!

    Also sigging that

    SoaL wrote: »
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

    i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.
  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    and trust me, none of y'all are dumb. no way is that true.

    maybe you haven't found the tools to make the thing make sense to you yet, but that's something you can overcome by rummaging around your mental garage.

  • ScrumtrulescentScrumtrulescent Registered User
    edited April 2011
    Orik's post made me think of this, which I love:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY


    If you like words, anything about them, how they sound, what they express, whatever:

    Watch this.

    SoaL wrote: »
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

    i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.
  • chiasaur11chiasaur11 Never doubt a raccoon. Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Okay, wait.

    Is Orik one of those teachers from the movies with an infectious enthusiasm but a complete disregard for academic politics who is beloved by all but nearly gets fired until the students convince the crusty old principle how great he is?

    Because that's seeming pretty likely right now.

    This is good and neat and all. However, it raises the possibility that the boundary between reality and fiction are breaking down, and from my experience with bad horror movies, the logical next step is terrifying demonic entities.

    So, want to be prepared and such.

    (Also, yes. Shakespeare is kinda really great. Haven't read and seen as much as I should, but I really dig Macbeth.)

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  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I really need to get back into the habit of reading

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  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    pretty much, except for the bit about the students. that's why i'm going into games.

  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The only way I can get poetry to sound right is if I set some sort of beat to it;

    So of course I end up spending far too much time 'trying out' different beats and 'trying out' different voices to speak/sing the words,

    and if I can't find the right combination of beat and voice I just get frustrated further.

    Muse are you a musician?

    Haha, not really, no. Though I am very aural in my thought processes. Discussions like these I hear in a different voice as compared to other types of discussions.

    I liked Macbeth because Lady Macbeth just fit so perfectly with one of my pre-existing visual archetypes, 'ambitious woman', who has a very specific face and voice.

    I never did find the face for Macbeth but I did find a voice; I don't know if that voice was already in repository or not, but it is now.

    I know it sounded like a joking question, but you have me really interested in the way your brain works. I find it fascinating how all of our brains can work in different ways. I take "let me pick your brain" to an entirely new level.

    Also t Orikae on the topic of Dickinson: It seems to me that she's lamenting the fact that she has no control over her own life in that last stanza? I dunno I feel like a stumped student right now.

    This repository or faces and voices I would say is relatively new, the past 4, maybe 5 years? Though it was budding long before.

    Only a few voices I would say are 'permanently in the collection', and are either tied to very specific character types, subject matter or are in fact, very general and lackluster, all-purpose voices that get the job done if not to my complete satisfaction.

    Other voices are more transient and vary depending on what media I have been listening to. As in, I will 'borrow' a voice to hear for future use. Sometimes it 'fits' well enough to really endure'.

    I have been purposefully trying to diversify the roster of voices the past year or so.

    I am likewise for faces. 'Kind Male Protaganist' has a specific jawline, 'overwhelmed and unhappy young man' is typically perceived as being blond, 'ambitious woman' has specific eyes.

  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    ee cummings is great

    but no poet has had an effect on my life to rival that of Walt Whitman

    cliche, I know, but Leaves of Grass is a lifechanger

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • chiasaur11chiasaur11 Never doubt a raccoon. Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I really need to get back into the habit of reading

    You totally do.

    Reading is kinda the best.

    Try Catch 22 once you're going again. Someone on the boards said everyone had to read it, it was that good.

    I was skeptical.

    I continued to be skeptical as I neared the end. Great, yes. But that great?

    And then I got to the ending.

    I was entirely wrong. It is that great.

    Also: Orik, thanks for the heads-up vis-a-vis terrifying demonic entities.

    2MyOx.png
  • ScrumtrulescentScrumtrulescent Registered User
    edited April 2011
    O, gather me the rose, the rose,
    While yet in flower we find it,
    For summer smiles, but summer goes,
    And winter waits behind it!

    For with the dream foregone, foregone,
    The deed forborne for ever,
    The worm, regret, will canker on,
    And time will turn him never.

    So well it were to love, my love,
    And cheat of any laughter
    The death beneath us and above,
    The dark before and after.

    The myrtle and the rose, the rose,
    The sunshine and the swallow,
    The dream that comes, the wish that goes,
    The memories that follow!


    Here's a poem by William Ernest Henley that I kinda like. It's pretty simple, but I enjoy it. As for me stripping it bare, I managed to make a connection between this poem and a 17th century Italian fairytale. I also found what I thought was a Hamlet allusion. I was shocked that I managed to eke forty minutes out of it, though.

    SoaL wrote: »
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

    i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    The one thing I will say that always pissed me off in AP English way back when

    Was when the teacher gave us the assignment "What is your interpretation of these poems?" And then would tell me that I was wrong and not give me credit.

    It's my interpretation. How the fuck can it be wrong.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    hey muse, what do you think of lawrence fishburne in that youtube clip?

    for context: othello has been manipulated into killing his newlywed wife. he mad.

  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Also: Orik, thanks for the heads-up vis-a-vis terrifying demonic entities.
    huh

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    I really need to get back into the habit of reading

    You totally do.

    Reading is kinda the best.

    Try Catch 22 once you're going again. Someone on the boards said everyone had to read it, it was that good.

    I was skeptical.

    I continued to be skeptical as I neared the end. Great, yes. But that great?

    And then I got to the ending.

    I was entirely wrong. It is that great.

    Also: Orik, thanks for the heads-up vis-a-vis terrifying demonic entities.

    I have read Catch-22

    it is my favorite book bar none

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    If you like Catch-22, you should read V.!

    www.twitter.com/amazingwarlock
  • ScrumtrulescentScrumtrulescent Registered User
    edited April 2011
    getting back to that curtains example that started this all off:

    That SPECIFIC example pisses me off to no end. I think it's because of their use of the color blue, and blue is so fucking important in A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Call it a personal connection.

    I mean, if they had said brown, I do not think I would care as much.

    SoaL wrote: »
    orikae you have an infectious excitement for this stuff

    i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.
This discussion has been closed.