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school is for pretentious assholes
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Either I'm phrasing this poorly, or you are just not reading what I'm saying.
I'm not saying there's a dichotomy at all, I'm saying that there are some works where the symbols make sense, and others where the author basically has to spend a paragraph describing a curtain to make the symbol work; some integrate with the novel in a way that feels organic and believable, and others where the author basically shoehorns it in so hard that they break the entire pace and narrative just to make it work.
If you want to make a point, fine, but if you're going to break your entire novel for five minutes just to make it work, I really don't see why you used it like this to begin with.
And I get that analysis is entirely dependent upon the tension between author and reader. Hamlet wouldn't be as much fun to analyze if Shakespeare had just come out and said "It's not an Oedipus story, you sick fucks," nor do I think that should be the case. I'm not criticizing the use of symbolism at all in a novel, I'm just saying that, in my mind, some authors did a better job of it than others.
And I'll admit that it's easier for me to enjoy a work if I don't have to spend five minutes parsing the Ye Olde English dictionary to find out that Hamlet just told Ophelia to go work in a whore house. But that's not the only criteria by which I judge a work, and I think it's disingenuous of you to say that. I'm sure there are contemporary works that I have studied, I just can't remember them off the top of my head right now, which is a dilemma that's been exacerbated by studying Victorian and Romantic literature for the last three months, so if I remember some of them, I'll get back to you.
I really don't get why you're making this personal. I'll be the first person to admit that some, if not all of this, is complete bullshit in the context of legitimate literary discussion. I'm just venting some perceived frustration about the nature of academic literature. I'm not saying that Forster, Tennyson, Chopin, or Austen were bad writers, or that their works aren't worth the attention the receive. I'm just saying that they really didn't pique my interest, and studying them for days or weeks at a time really did not help that.
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but I also really, really like direct authorial or narratorial presence in works
so I really like when he or she intrudes upon the piece to highlight something or speak to the reader directly (less so when he feels the need to explicitly call attention to the thing's existence as fiction, but nonetheless)
so "flow" in that sense has never been a big concern of mine
Also, get thee to a nunnery remains one of my favorite literary quotes.
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dude, fuck yes for getting excited about certain pieces. When I get excited about something I just can't wait to tell everyone I know that's interested in this stuff about it. I did a project on William Ernest Henley and I had to teach one of his poems for forty minutes in class, and my teacher commended me for stripping a relatively simple poet's work basically BARE. I left not a stone unturned in that poem.
And that first line is what threw me off, because I was ready for the poem to be about her life, but not ready for it to be about her as a gun. I knew where I started, and where I was going, but I didn't understand how the road in between went.
Ima go back and read it with this understanding now, and then I'll post that Henley poem
Our textbooks were rather lightly annotated in the bottom margins, and with my piebald knowledge of historical trivia I could see some places where I personally would have placed an annotation; not because it fundamentally changed the meaning of the words but because hey, here is something cool that really makes the setting/characters/etc 'pop'.
The teachers had to do extra legwork, pausing to do the job of an annotation. So it was slow reading too.
When in groups, there was usually someone with a dictionary or smart phone out, to essentially translate the text.
OH MY GOD YES
Branagh in the Nunnery scene is BRILLIANT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJBOAkMsSc
so good so good so good so good
ya fart lmao
So of course I end up spending far too much time 'trying out' different beats and 'trying out' different voices to speak/sing the words,
and if I can't find the right combination of beat and voice I just get frustrated further.
Muse are you a musician?
I guess that's where you and I differ; if an author can insert themselves into a text in a way that doesn't break the narrative, then I'm all for it.
If they have to spend five minutes describing what a flower means though, they probably should just back off a bit.
Again, that's just me.
Also, this is a good discussion. I like this discussion. Thank you for having it with me.
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yeah, i mean, you're never going to read shakespeare as quickly as stephen king or even faulkner. but shakespeare rewards effort. if you try to have fun with it, then it'll open itself up to you.
i really recommend getting up and feeling silly and trying to give a performance with some flair as opposed to just reading from the book.
Thank you.
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Otherwise it can feel you're just reading a lot of words that seem disjointed, and don't make a lot of sense in modern English.
Then again, I'm stupid about that sort of thing.
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Haha, not really, no. Though I am very aural in my thought processes. Discussions like these I hear in a different voice as compared to other types of discussions.
I liked Macbeth because Lady Macbeth just fit so perfectly with one of my pre-existing visual archetypes, 'ambitious woman', who has a very specific face and voice.
I never did find the face for Macbeth but I did find a voice; I don't know if that voice was already in repository or not, but it is now.
I took, by the throat, the circumcise`d dog, and smote him--
thus!
i mean, tell me that language isn't musical. othello expresses regret at his actions, and paints himself as he has always seen himself - as a war hero, beset by forces on all sides, and someone who was always in the right, even if he was technically in the wrong.
that is some relevant shit.
shakespeare talks about dongs all the time. most of romeo and juliet is dick jokes.
I know it sounded like a joking question, but you have me really interested in the way your brain works. I find it fascinating how all of our brains can work in different ways. I take "let me pick your brain" to an entirely new level.
Also t Orikae on the topic of Dickinson: It seems to me that she's lamenting the fact that she has no control over her own life in that last stanza? I dunno I feel like a stumped student right now.
i really believe in the expressive and transformative power of language. the proper sequence of words, placed just so, can change your entire worldview. it can change your life.
Because everybody I talk to loves him to pieces, but his work doesn't really pique my interest, and it makes me feel dumb.
Which I probably am, but I want to know why.
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yeah! i mean, like i said earlier, there is no right or wrong answer, and i didn't have one in mind when i wrote that question. but that seems to make sense, doesn't it?
let it percolate in yo noggin for a bit. pm me if you want to talk about it.
english is at its best when it's like a puzzle, i think. you just gotta pull and twist shit until it falls into place.
Let me tell you about video games. Let me tell you about Homestuck
you just got childish gambino stuck in my head
I won't post the lyric because it's kinda sexist and raunchy
but
EE Cummings is involved!
Also sigging that
maybe you haven't found the tools to make the thing make sense to you yet, but that's something you can overcome by rummaging around your mental garage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY
If you like words, anything about them, how they sound, what they express, whatever:
Watch this.
Is Orik one of those teachers from the movies with an infectious enthusiasm but a complete disregard for academic politics who is beloved by all but nearly gets fired until the students convince the crusty old principle how great he is?
Because that's seeming pretty likely right now.
This is good and neat and all. However, it raises the possibility that the boundary between reality and fiction are breaking down, and from my experience with bad horror movies, the logical next step is terrifying demonic entities.
So, want to be prepared and such.
(Also, yes. Shakespeare is kinda really great. Haven't read and seen as much as I should, but I really dig Macbeth.)
Let me tell you about video games. Let me tell you about Homestuck
This repository or faces and voices I would say is relatively new, the past 4, maybe 5 years? Though it was budding long before.
Only a few voices I would say are 'permanently in the collection', and are either tied to very specific character types, subject matter or are in fact, very general and lackluster, all-purpose voices that get the job done if not to my complete satisfaction.
Other voices are more transient and vary depending on what media I have been listening to. As in, I will 'borrow' a voice to hear for future use. Sometimes it 'fits' well enough to really endure'.
I have been purposefully trying to diversify the roster of voices the past year or so.
I am likewise for faces. 'Kind Male Protaganist' has a specific jawline, 'overwhelmed and unhappy young man' is typically perceived as being blond, 'ambitious woman' has specific eyes.
but no poet has had an effect on my life to rival that of Walt Whitman
cliche, I know, but Leaves of Grass is a lifechanger
You totally do.
Reading is kinda the best.
Try Catch 22 once you're going again. Someone on the boards said everyone had to read it, it was that good.
I was skeptical.
I continued to be skeptical as I neared the end. Great, yes. But that great?
And then I got to the ending.
I was entirely wrong. It is that great.
Also: Orik, thanks for the heads-up vis-a-vis terrifying demonic entities.
Here's a poem by William Ernest Henley that I kinda like. It's pretty simple, but I enjoy it. As for me stripping it bare, I managed to make a connection between this poem and a 17th century Italian fairytale. I also found what I thought was a Hamlet allusion. I was shocked that I managed to eke forty minutes out of it, though.
Was when the teacher gave us the assignment "What is your interpretation of these poems?" And then would tell me that I was wrong and not give me credit.
It's my interpretation. How the fuck can it be wrong.
"Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process."
Imagine all of my posts being spoken by Alec Baldwin
GamerTag: MunkusBeaver ||||| Steam: munkus
for context: othello has been manipulated into killing his newlywed wife. he mad.
I have read Catch-22
it is my favorite book bar none
Let me tell you about video games. Let me tell you about Homestuck
That SPECIFIC example pisses me off to no end. I think it's because of their use of the color blue, and blue is so fucking important in A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Call it a personal connection.
I mean, if they had said brown, I do not think I would care as much.