As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Debt Ceiling Ho!
adventfalls
Why would you wish to know?Registered User regular
Why would you wish to know?Registered User regular
Okay, so, obviously, this is a big subject, but let's go ahead and talk about the US government. Basic stuff about what they're doing, how they're doing, etc. This isn't about the stupidity of state governments, this isn't about the stupidity of the Republican presidential field, this is about the stupidity (perceived or otherwise) of the federal government.
First, a quick primer for our buddies overseas or those who want a refresher on what's going on in Congress, since everyone knows who's in the White House:
This is Speaker of the House John Boehner (pronounced Bay-ner, not Boner). He became Speaker of the House after the Republican wave election of 2010.... and isn't necessarily that good at his job.
House of Representatives has 435 Representatives in it, and is very prone to wave elections. 2010 put a lot of extremely conservative Republicans into office. Said Republicans claimed that their agenda would be entirely about 'jobs, jobs, jobs'. Their most noteworthy accomplishments are trying to redefine rape, trying to undo Wall Street reform, and attempting to drastically cut Medicare and Medicaid (though they've since backed off of the Medicare thing).
This is Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. He managed to keep control of the Senate after 2010, and has roundly been accused of having no spine... though this has disappeared over the past few months.
Trying to rule the Senate is like trying to herd cats- you need to be damn good at your job or you'll get clawed repeatedly. And given Senate rules and the current political climate (Republicans are liable to filibuster anything, meaning a 60 vote supermajority is required to pass anything of substance), the Senate is renewing its reputation as the place where ideas go to die.
So there's gonna be a big showdown over the debt ceiling. Boehner says it's not going to be raised unless there's a massive number of spending cuts, trillions of dollars of them.
Reid's fired back, wanting cuts in oil and gas subsidies before anything else- something the House already voted down and that Boehner views as a tax hike.
Even the President's gotten in on the action, implying that the Republicans are taking hostages and using some of the harshest language on their end yet.
mod edit: "US Government" is way too broad a thread topic. I hereby christen this the Debt Ceiling and Maybe Some Things Related Like Deficits and Such Thread.
First, a quick primer for our buddies overseas or those who want a refresher on what's going on in Congress, since everyone knows who's in the White House:
This is Speaker of the House John Boehner (pronounced Bay-ner, not Boner). He became Speaker of the House after the Republican wave election of 2010.... and isn't necessarily that good at his job.
House of Representatives has 435 Representatives in it, and is very prone to wave elections. 2010 put a lot of extremely conservative Republicans into office. Said Republicans claimed that their agenda would be entirely about 'jobs, jobs, jobs'. Their most noteworthy accomplishments are trying to redefine rape, trying to undo Wall Street reform, and attempting to drastically cut Medicare and Medicaid (though they've since backed off of the Medicare thing).
This is Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. He managed to keep control of the Senate after 2010, and has roundly been accused of having no spine... though this has disappeared over the past few months.
Trying to rule the Senate is like trying to herd cats- you need to be damn good at your job or you'll get clawed repeatedly. And given Senate rules and the current political climate (Republicans are liable to filibuster anything, meaning a 60 vote supermajority is required to pass anything of substance), the Senate is renewing its reputation as the place where ideas go to die.
So there's gonna be a big showdown over the debt ceiling. Boehner says it's not going to be raised unless there's a massive number of spending cuts, trillions of dollars of them.
Reid's fired back, wanting cuts in oil and gas subsidies before anything else- something the House already voted down and that Boehner views as a tax hike.
Even the President's gotten in on the action, implying that the Republicans are taking hostages and using some of the harshest language on their end yet.
mod edit: "US Government" is way too broad a thread topic. I hereby christen this the Debt Ceiling and Maybe Some Things Related Like Deficits and Such Thread.
NintendoID: AdventFalls 3DS Code: 3454-0237-6080
adventfalls on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
They should set it to some % of GDP
Spending caps are a terrible, terrible idea. Sometimes emergencies happen and you have to spend a lot of money.
John Boehner says you're a silly goose. http://www.speaker.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=240370
Republicans have no leverage. The rest of the statement is meaningless, because the GOP will not destroy the American economy. They're a fucking puffer fish. They look big and scary but if you pop them, they deflate and have to vote to raise the damn thing, because they are not yet a suicide cult.
As to the ceiling in principle, I like it as a reminded that this is actual money we are actually spending. In theory, we can borrow an infinite amount of money. In practice, there are good reasons to not just print out a trillion dollars and buy the nation a giant bling-necklace to hang around Maine. Periodic fights like these, while incredibly dumb, help remind the politicians and the citizens that the debt is money that we are spending that we don't actually have.
If only the Dems weren't phobic about puffer fish.
"Gah! It's inflating! Give it more spending cuts! Dear God, give it more spending cuts!"
All the posturing here is to try and force the Democrats to do all (or most of) the voting to raise the debt ceiling so the GOP can hammer them on raising the debt ceiling.
Oh, and to get all sorts of cuts passed too.
Something socially important will get cut/negatively impacted burdening mostly poor minorities, but the Republicans will have to vote to raise the debt ceiling, while simultaneously bemoaning whatever compromise Boehner has cut with Democratic leadership that doesn't 100% comply with every godforsaken bullet point of their unattainable goals
As much of a detestable wang Boehner is, I highly doubt that he'll allow a debt crisis on his Speakership
NNID: Hakkekage
Reminding the people doesn't help when all it does it provoke the usual talking points, especially considering the state of ignorance regarding the causes of and possible solutions to the debt issue. The ceiling has been raised 10 times in the last decade without anything getting fixed - what's made the complaints louder this time is the magnitude of the deficit, not the impending 80th Raising of the Ceiling Since 1940.
Let's also end the 2 wars we're fighting that have cost us trillions of dollars.
That and raise the debt ceiling.
... waitaminute ... that would take more guts than the whole of D.C. actually has ...
Nevermind, let's do something less intelligent instead.
Democracy isn't one party threatening to bring about the end of modern civilization if they don't get their way, and the other party capitulating.
I don't see a specific date in the OP, and Google is giving me mixed answers. Is there a hard date set for when this may come to a vote, or is it based on outside factors that may kick in sooner or later but without a set timeline just yet?
I agree with most of this but think think the bolded part should be accomplished by closing loopholes vs raising the actual rate. A person who is making $500k plus but not utilizing any shelters (and not living in FL or no-income tax state) is paying around 45% of their income in federal and state taxes. The problem are the loopholes that allow same individual to lower their effective tax rate to less than 20%
Maybe you should READ THE CONSTITUTION
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
You would be surprised. Tax shelters can be incredibly expensive to set up (if you want to maintain any sort of liquidity). Income needs to start hitting the millions before it is really cost effective. Alternatively, someone can abuse the tax code and do things bordering on illegal to shelter income in an "easier" manner but most people would prefer not to do that.
It pissed me off that Republicans got stuck on the funding for DC abortions when they probably could have extracted some extra dozens of billions of dollars if they'd kept their message focused on spending cuts, rather than social issues.
Rigorous Scholarship
It's kind of difficult to hold the entire US economy hostage in exchange for concessions, because you've got no credibility - you just will not shoot the hostage. It's even harder when you've gone on record and *said* that under no circumstances will you shoot the hostage. Really, this is the Republicans daring the Dems to finally strap on a pair and tell them to fuck off. At worst, they do and the debt limit gets raised. At best, they don't and the debt limit gets raised and you get to march closer to your ideal 'fuck the poor' Randian dystopia.
[Edit]
and the timing issue is...fluid. Basically, it's hard to tell when we (i.e., the Fed) won't be able to pull some trickery to meet our debt obligations. It starts to get dicey within the next couple weeks. I've also read some commentary that indicates playing chicken is dangerous here - if it looks like we might actually default, the Treasuries market could decide to flip it's shit to the point where we wake up one morning and holy fuck we actually DID default!
Because what our economy really needs right now is less stimulus.
I agree with all of this. However, Congress has already passed, and the President has already signed, a measure that sets tax rates for fiscal year 2010 and 2011. They've also passed and signed a measure that sets spending rates for fiscal year 2010, and are currently negotiating spending rates for fiscal year 2011. Once those two measures have passed, there's now a deficit of a (fairly) fixed size.
Now, for some inexplicable reason of American political institutions, Congress needs to pass and the President needs to sign a further piece of legislation that admits that Spending_2010 is in fact a larger number than Revenue_2010. The debt ceiling battle is a battle over the reality of subtraction.
That seems to me like just the sort of thing they'd do. I know they're in the tank for big business and big business doesn't want this to happen, but they're ALSO in the tank for irrationality and empty rhetoric.
When will the time be right for cuts and when will the national debt start decreasing? Long-term, lowering the debt means more tax dollars can go to programs, rather than servicing the debt itself. And a lower debtload means future necessary deficit spending will be more palatable.
Rigorous Scholarship
We have to also increase revenues!
Between the Tea Party-ers, the fiscal conservatives who are not affiliated with nut-jobs, the near libertarian states-rights crazies, and the culture war obsessives, one could be caught by surprise that the party manages to present a united front even in the small things, like the opposition response to the State of The Union address...
From my liberal Ivory Tower I'm seeing the easiest group of conservatives to defeat in a very long time ... too bad I can't convince the elected liberals to see things the same.
Except Boehner is demanding 2 trillion (at least, 2 trillion is how much I heard they wanted to raise the debt ceiling last night).
For funsies I figured out what would have to be cut from the budget to reach that number. Using a graph of the 2010 budget on Wikipedia it looked like everything (EVERYTHING) except Defense and Social Security.
Even going back to Clinton taxes would essentially fix the debt. Reagan taxes would let us actually have a country again!
Like, if we cut some weapons program, the amount to look at is how much the cut would have spent over the life of the program, rather than the first year.
Rigorous Scholarship
Which is the evil pipedream of the Tea Party. I'm now calling them do-nothings, because they have no solutions, no alternatives, and no practical ideas that I've heard, just a tired old mantra that we've all heard for decades from other conservatives:
Everything involving fed+money = slash-and-burn (fitting end for any Randian distopia).
It's not about the deficit. It's never been about the deficit. If it was about the deficit, Bill Clinton would be a god damn national hero.
Except if the Republican governor wants it, in which case gimme!