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The New Comic Thread for Wednesday, May 25, 2011

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Posts

  • IvarIvar Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Weapons

    Jesus fuck-a-doodle-doo, they've added a lot of stuff since the last time I played

  • FearghaillFearghaill Midgard I hear some secret agents only get cars.Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    I just find BD's attitude hilarious. Stereotypical "all you casual gamers are ruining it for us real gamers by making them dumb everything down!"

    If I wasn't so exhausted I'd dig up the quote where BD claims that only "pro" gamers/people who can beat a game on the hardest difficulty are qualified to review it. Maybe tomorrow.

    With no dog in this fight, I'm intrigued to see how you would accomplish this while the search remains non-functional.

    I would do it like this.
    BlackDove wrote: »

    *snip*
    Game Journalism is shit for another very specific reason.

    Playing games takes hand-eye co-ordination.

    Playing games well, takes well developed reflexes.

    It is an abstract skill that is unfortunately (in my opinion) a must if you plan on being in the business of deconstructing game mechanics and underlying intentions of the developer, and gauging accurately how the intention matches up with the finished product.

    *snip*

    The only way to truly give an objective review is to be able to experience THE ENTIRE spectrum, not just the low end.

    *snip*

    The unskilled (hypothetical in this case, but pretty much everyone these days is) reviewer that is reviewing the game is incapable of making this distinction, because their ability to judge rests solely on the low plateau. Therefore they can't say for example "game sucks for the average person, but for those who have moderate hand eye co-ordination would get a lot out of it". He can't score the game based on this. The score the game gets is "pretty colors, horrible gameplay, 4/10, the end".

    Would you say that's accurate, for the people capable of playing the game properly?

    Should there be no distinction and should the reviewers just assume that everyone playing is as handicapped as they are?

    Is that an accurate way of judging anything?

    Here's an analogy: An average 12 year old girl reviews Citizen Kane. Is that a good, trustworthy review? Is an average 12 year old girl capable of understanding Citizen Kane?

    That's right, if you're not as good as BlackDove you're essentially a 12-year old girl.

    EDIT: this is what I get for going to bed. But it's still worth quoting for all to see.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    the idea that people who review games for a living haven't developed gaming-related reflexes strikes me as ridiculous

    gkcmatch_zps97480250.jpg
    if the rapture don't come cousin, then pass the guns
    I'll burn'em for the return of my investment funds
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    the idea that people who review games for a living haven't developed gaming-related reflexes strikes me as ridiculous

    Clearly, you never read Gamepro.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • FearghaillFearghaill Midgard I hear some secret agents only get cars.Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    the idea that people who review games for a living haven't developed gaming-related reflexes strikes me as ridiculous

    I'm sure most have, but if it's not at BlackDove's level it's not good enough.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I think I read a gamepro once

    like, 15 years ago maybe

    gkcmatch_zps97480250.jpg
    if the rapture don't come cousin, then pass the guns
    I'll burn'em for the return of my investment funds
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    Gamepro was notorious for giving low scores to games they couldn't beat.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • ThatDudeOverThereThatDudeOverThere MY FINEST CREATION oh nevermind it's deadRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I guess this makes me one of those filthy industry-killing casuals but nothing turns me away from a game more than an inadequate tutorial

    Really, in this day and age when you can find fifty guides online?

    I shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy something presumably designed to entertain me

    nHu0VJL.png
    My Youtube My Steam SMITE IGN: TDOTCRFH4 come SMITE with me
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I guess this makes me one of those filthy industry-killing casuals but nothing turns me away from a game more than an inadequate tutorial

    Really, in this day and age when you can find fifty guides online?

    I shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy something presumably designed to entertain me

    Yeah, I tend look at tutorials as an improvement also. I don't exactly pine for the days when I had to read a manual that took up a good portion of the box in order to play a game right after I threw in the floppy.

    That said, the tutorial thing is tricky. Too many and too easy... well that's something that kinda annoyed me in GTA4. Endless tutorials that were all pretty goddamned simple.

    On the other hand it sounds like Witcher 2 has gone in the other direction with a tutorial, keeping with an amount of ruthlessness consistent with the difficulty after you know how to play it. Which... kinda seems to blow away the reason for a tutorial. If you're constantly failing... maybe you're not exactly being tutored about how to succeed the game. Unless of course the idea is to throw you in the water and yell "stop drowning!"

    But since I'm one of the filthy unwashed console masses who doesn't own a desktop PC gamin' machine anymore my opinon is shit and I am also shit. I presume.

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  • MysstMysst King Monkey of Hedonism IslandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    man GTA games got fucking stupid with their tutorials

  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    yep.

    i think Mass Effect 2 was pretty good with the tutorial thing... basically your first two "levels" are tutorials, the second of which actually furthers the story along, and it manages to teach you the basics of how to do things without being too easy or too hard on "normal" mode. take it down to casual and it's easy as heck, turn it up to insanity and it's controller-throwingly brutal.

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  • ThatDudeOverThereThatDudeOverThere MY FINEST CREATION oh nevermind it's deadRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    In spite of not having a distinct tutorial, I actually really like the way the left 4 dead games taught players how everything worked

    there were big, unmissable prompts for each thing you were supposed to do, and once you'd successfully done something a number of times, the prompt for that action would go away for good

    it made things obvious and clear, and even if you already knew what you were doing, they didn't interrupt the flow of play

    nHu0VJL.png
    My Youtube My Steam SMITE IGN: TDOTCRFH4 come SMITE with me
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    i passed on left 4 dead but that sounds like a feature i would enjoy in a game too

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  • jwalkjwalk frosty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    L|ama wrote: »
    Gonna make a game with 26 different commands, mapped to each of the alphabet keys, with no manual and no tutorial

    Call it "BlackDove's Throbbing Erection"

    it's called "a military flight sim", except there's 50 commands

    I WILL TAXI TO VICTORY!

  • Viscount IslandsViscount Islands [INSERT SoKo HERE] Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Mysst wrote: »
    man GTA games got fucking stupid with their tutorials

    Fucking seriously.

    Like I do not want to be seeing tutorials 15 hours into a game guys.

    I want to do with you
    What spring does with the cherry trees.
  • TenTen Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    That's one of things I kinda love about a lot of Rockstar games though, the fact that you can be so far into the game and still discovering new game mechanics makes the world feel richer to me. It was one of the things I missed playing LA Noire.

  • 101101 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    jwalk wrote: »
    L|ama wrote: »
    Gonna make a game with 26 different commands, mapped to each of the alphabet keys, with no manual and no tutorial

    Call it "BlackDove's Throbbing Erection"

    it's called "a military flight sim", except there's 50 commands

    I WILL TAXI TO VICTORY!

    dear lord

  • jwalkjwalk frosty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    also I like the styley background wash he's doing lately, instead of just a solid color. art just keeps getting better, it really is amazing.

  • Viscount IslandsViscount Islands [INSERT SoKo HERE] Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I don't really seek out really hard games, but when I hear reviewers say things like "Punishing, but very rewarding/satisfying" my cat ears perk up.

    "Feels too easy" makes my cat tail droop slightly in disinterest though.

    I want to do with you
    What spring does with the cherry trees.
  • FearghaillFearghaill Midgard I hear some secret agents only get cars.Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I get the feeling that anyone complainging about the difficulty/learning curve in The Witcher 2 hasn't played Demon's Souls.

    Which is a shame really. Everyone should play Demon's Souls, particularly if they like hard/satisfying games.

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  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I usually don't worry about games being to hard or complicated.

    I figure, hell, I used to play Falcon 4.0. Nothing could phase me after that.

    TuckSig.jpg
    Steam - Talon Valdez : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    There are a lot of games where I don't have a problem with difficulty, as long as the difficulty comes from the game being hard, rather than the controls being sloppy or the directions being obtuse.

    Complicated controls do not always equal sloppy controls either.

  • BlackDoveBlackDove Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    the idea that people who review games for a living haven't developed gaming-related reflexes strikes me as ridiculous

    I'm sure most have, but if it's not at BlackDove's level it's not good enough.

    This is true.

  • FearghaillFearghaill Midgard I hear some secret agents only get cars.Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I respect that you stick to your guns in the face of universal disagreement/derision. You're still a silly goose, but at least you're consistent about it.

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  • ThatDudeOverThereThatDudeOverThere MY FINEST CREATION oh nevermind it's deadRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    that's not necessarily something to be respected

    nHu0VJL.png
    My Youtube My Steam SMITE IGN: TDOTCRFH4 come SMITE with me
  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Rolo wrote: »
    There are a lot of games where I don't have a problem with difficulty, as long as the difficulty comes from the game being hard, rather than the controls being sloppy or the directions being obtuse.

    Complicated controls do not always equal sloppy controls either.

    DIE BY THE SWORD

    e: that's the game where you used the number pad or something like that to swing your sword around, right?

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  • BlackDoveBlackDove Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    I respect that you stick to your guns in the face of universal disagreement/derision. You're still a silly goose, but at least you're consistent about it.

    Now, now. The real reason you take the flag isn't because you've got any coherent argument against mine.

    At its base, my position can't really be argued against. It's nice to see others deride it (in fact I'm glad it's a popular notion to bring up), but when you take away all the WORDS WORDS WORDS, all it essentially argues is that competent people are required to provide competent reviews, even when the job is VIDEOGAEMZZZ.

    And that the current state of affairs, like in pretty much every single other profession, is that the unqualified dominate this particular industry, perhaps moreso than others, because the majority of the audience has no fucking idea how to pass coherent judgment on them.

    I'm sure that's a concept lost on the majority, as well as it should be I suppose.

    It is for all intents and purposes, your fault that people like Jim Sterling have a steady and paying job.

    And if you don't know who that is?

    That's part of the test.

    edit: I'm sorry, I was so self-absorbed (happens alot) that I forgot this is off topic.

    Back onto the topic - The Witcher 2 is a game made of fuckwin, and everyone should play it like a boss, and quit whining.

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I like high difficulty

    but I like the "easy to learn, hard to master" sort of thing

    I loved Super Meat Boy but if, say a turn-based RPG is really hard I will almost definitely lose interest

    The Witcher sounds like something that would make my eyes glaze over within about two minutes

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  • FearghaillFearghaill Midgard I hear some secret agents only get cars.Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I'm not going to (further) drag up a debate that's already been had and risk the wrath of Tube by staying offtopic. Suffice to say your position can and has been argued against, by me and others. Click the link at the top of the quote if you need to refer to the old thread for a refresher on why you're wrong.

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  • DubhDubh "Raising" Trouble Abandoned LabsRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I guess this makes me one of those filthy industry-killing casuals but nothing turns me away from a game more than an inadequate tutorial

    Really, in this day and age when you can find fifty guides online?

    I shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy something presumably designed to entertain me

    There's a few great games out there that do require homework, such as SS13, Minecraft (to an extent), and Dwarf Fortress. Are these games for everyone? No. Should all developers follow the model set by Dwarf Fortress? Hell nah. The alternative doesn't necessarily have to be 15+ hours of tutorials, either.

    Thinking back on tabletop games, I really love those early nights with a new system- only knowing how my character works and being constantly amazed at all the cool shit the rest of my party can do. I wasn't required to understand the other character classes, or how spells worked if I was playing the hacking and slashing type.

    Now take all of that, pile it up on one playable character, and that's how I perceive The Witcher. So. Much. Stuff. To. Learn. And it all seems required to actually get through the game.

    Thing_zps6acf1883.png <---DE?AD makes games
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Dubh wrote: »
    I guess this makes me one of those filthy industry-killing casuals but nothing turns me away from a game more than an inadequate tutorial

    Really, in this day and age when you can find fifty guides online?

    I shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy something presumably designed to entertain me

    There's a few great games out there that do require homework, such as SS13, Minecraft (to an extent), and Dwarf Fortress. Are these games for everyone? No. Should all developers follow the model set by Dwarf Fortress? Hell nah. The alternative doesn't necessarily have to be 15+ hours of tutorials, either.

    There's a difference.

    To me (a philistine) Dwarf Fortress looks boring as shit with graphics that are also shit.

    Witcher 2 looks like it has a lot of action, an awesome story, and some bitchin' dynamic combat.

    I would like to put in the disc and get in on that right away. A short tutorial telling me how to prepare for combat and pull a few sweet moves would help.

    I would like it if I did not have to do homework in order to play a game that looks good and entertaining.

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  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    dwarf fortress is awesome and the ascii graphics are the bomb, that game is so much fun.

  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    i couldn't find the fun in dwarf fortress

    i tried playing it but it felt like a step backwards

    it felt like i was playing an old game that was probably okay in its day

    perhaps my old age has decreased my attention span

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  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    I confess that I'm a sucker for ascii roguelikes. I've played around with DF and enjoyed it, but I just haven't been able to stick with it long term. I think it's because with roguelikes like all the Angband variants, the controls aren't terribly complicated and are easy enough to pull up in the help file in game, but there were all sorts of clever ways you could use the commands. DF is much more convoluted. Which is cool for some, but I just couldn't stay interested long enough to figure out all the different shit you needed to do to carry out something seemingly straightforward.

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