Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited May 2011
Gamepro was notorious for giving low scores to games they couldn't beat.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I guess this makes me one of those filthy industry-killing casuals but nothing turns me away from a game more than an inadequate tutorial
Really, in this day and age when you can find fifty guides online?
I shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy something presumably designed to entertain me
Yeah, I tend look at tutorials as an improvement also. I don't exactly pine for the days when I had to read a manual that took up a good portion of the box in order to play a game right after I threw in the floppy.
That said, the tutorial thing is tricky. Too many and too easy... well that's something that kinda annoyed me in GTA4. Endless tutorials that were all pretty goddamned simple.
On the other hand it sounds like Witcher 2 has gone in the other direction with a tutorial, keeping with an amount of ruthlessness consistent with the difficulty after you know how to play it. Which... kinda seems to blow away the reason for a tutorial. If you're constantly failing... maybe you're not exactly being tutored about how to succeed the game. Unless of course the idea is to throw you in the water and yell "stop drowning!"
But since I'm one of the filthy unwashed console masses who doesn't own a desktop PC gamin' machine anymore my opinon is shit and I am also shit. I presume.
i think Mass Effect 2 was pretty good with the tutorial thing... basically your first two "levels" are tutorials, the second of which actually furthers the story along, and it manages to teach you the basics of how to do things without being too easy or too hard on "normal" mode. take it down to casual and it's easy as heck, turn it up to insanity and it's controller-throwingly brutal.
In spite of not having a distinct tutorial, I actually really like the way the left 4 dead games taught players how everything worked
there were big, unmissable prompts for each thing you were supposed to do, and once you'd successfully done something a number of times, the prompt for that action would go away for good
it made things obvious and clear, and even if you already knew what you were doing, they didn't interrupt the flow of play
That's one of things I kinda love about a lot of Rockstar games though, the fact that you can be so far into the game and still discovering new game mechanics makes the world feel richer to me. It was one of the things I missed playing LA Noire.
BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
There are a lot of games where I don't have a problem with difficulty, as long as the difficulty comes from the game being hard, rather than the controls being sloppy or the directions being obtuse.
Complicated controls do not always equal sloppy controls either.
the idea that people who review games for a living haven't developed gaming-related reflexes strikes me as ridiculous
I'm sure most have, but if it's not at BlackDove's level it's not good enough.
This is true.
BlackDove on
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
I respect that you stick to your guns in the face of universal disagreement/derision. You're still a silly goose, but at least you're consistent about it.
There are a lot of games where I don't have a problem with difficulty, as long as the difficulty comes from the game being hard, rather than the controls being sloppy or the directions being obtuse.
Complicated controls do not always equal sloppy controls either.
DIE BY THE SWORD
e: that's the game where you used the number pad or something like that to swing your sword around, right?
I respect that you stick to your guns in the face of universal disagreement/derision. You're still a silly goose, but at least you're consistent about it.
Now, now. The real reason you take the flag isn't because you've got any coherent argument against mine.
At its base, my position can't really be argued against. It's nice to see others deride it (in fact I'm glad it's a popular notion to bring up), but when you take away all the WORDS WORDS WORDS, all it essentially argues is that competent people are required to provide competent reviews, even when the job is VIDEOGAEMZZZ.
And that the current state of affairs, like in pretty much every single other profession, is that the unqualified dominate this particular industry, perhaps moreso than others, because the majority of the audience has no fucking idea how to pass coherent judgment on them.
I'm sure that's a concept lost on the majority, as well as it should be I suppose.
It is for all intents and purposes, your fault that people like Jim Sterling have a steady and paying job.
UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
I'm not going to (further) drag up a debate that's already been had and risk the wrath of Tube by staying offtopic. Suffice to say your position can and has been argued against, by me and others. Click the link at the top of the quote if you need to refer to the old thread for a refresher on why you're wrong.
I guess this makes me one of those filthy industry-killing casuals but nothing turns me away from a game more than an inadequate tutorial
Really, in this day and age when you can find fifty guides online?
I shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy something presumably designed to entertain me
There's a few great games out there that do require homework, such as SS13, Minecraft (to an extent), and Dwarf Fortress. Are these games for everyone? No. Should all developers follow the model set by Dwarf Fortress? Hell nah. The alternative doesn't necessarily have to be 15+ hours of tutorials, either.
Thinking back on tabletop games, I really love those early nights with a new system- only knowing how my character works and being constantly amazed at all the cool shit the rest of my party can do. I wasn't required to understand the other character classes, or how spells worked if I was playing the hacking and slashing type.
Now take all of that, pile it up on one playable character, and that's how I perceive The Witcher. So. Much. Stuff. To. Learn. And it all seems required to actually get through the game.
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I guess this makes me one of those filthy industry-killing casuals but nothing turns me away from a game more than an inadequate tutorial
Really, in this day and age when you can find fifty guides online?
I shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy something presumably designed to entertain me
There's a few great games out there that do require homework, such as SS13, Minecraft (to an extent), and Dwarf Fortress. Are these games for everyone? No. Should all developers follow the model set by Dwarf Fortress? Hell nah. The alternative doesn't necessarily have to be 15+ hours of tutorials, either.
There's a difference.
To me (a philistine) Dwarf Fortress looks boring as shit with graphics that are also shit.
Witcher 2 looks like it has a lot of action, an awesome story, and some bitchin' dynamic combat.
I would like to put in the disc and get in on that right away. A short tutorial telling me how to prepare for combat and pull a few sweet moves would help.
I would like it if I did not have to do homework in order to play a game that looks good and entertaining.
I confess that I'm a sucker for ascii roguelikes. I've played around with DF and enjoyed it, but I just haven't been able to stick with it long term. I think it's because with roguelikes like all the Angband variants, the controls aren't terribly complicated and are easy enough to pull up in the help file in game, but there were all sorts of clever ways you could use the commands. DF is much more convoluted. Which is cool for some, but I just couldn't stay interested long enough to figure out all the different shit you needed to do to carry out something seemingly straightforward.
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I shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy something presumably designed to entertain me
Yeah, I tend look at tutorials as an improvement also. I don't exactly pine for the days when I had to read a manual that took up a good portion of the box in order to play a game right after I threw in the floppy.
That said, the tutorial thing is tricky. Too many and too easy... well that's something that kinda annoyed me in GTA4. Endless tutorials that were all pretty goddamned simple.
On the other hand it sounds like Witcher 2 has gone in the other direction with a tutorial, keeping with an amount of ruthlessness consistent with the difficulty after you know how to play it. Which... kinda seems to blow away the reason for a tutorial. If you're constantly failing... maybe you're not exactly being tutored about how to succeed the game. Unless of course the idea is to throw you in the water and yell "stop drowning!"
But since I'm one of the filthy unwashed console masses who doesn't own a desktop PC gamin' machine anymore my opinon is shit and I am also shit. I presume.
i think Mass Effect 2 was pretty good with the tutorial thing... basically your first two "levels" are tutorials, the second of which actually furthers the story along, and it manages to teach you the basics of how to do things without being too easy or too hard on "normal" mode. take it down to casual and it's easy as heck, turn it up to insanity and it's controller-throwingly brutal.
there were big, unmissable prompts for each thing you were supposed to do, and once you'd successfully done something a number of times, the prompt for that action would go away for good
it made things obvious and clear, and even if you already knew what you were doing, they didn't interrupt the flow of play
I WILL TAXI TO VICTORY!
Fucking seriously.
Like I do not want to be seeing tutorials 15 hours into a game guys.
What spring does with the cherry trees.
dear lord
"Feels too easy" makes my cat tail droop slightly in disinterest though.
What spring does with the cherry trees.
Which is a shame really. Everyone should play Demon's Souls, particularly if they like hard/satisfying games.
I figure, hell, I used to play Falcon 4.0. Nothing could phase me after that.
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
Complicated controls do not always equal sloppy controls either.
This is true.
DIE BY THE SWORD
e: that's the game where you used the number pad or something like that to swing your sword around, right?
Now, now. The real reason you take the flag isn't because you've got any coherent argument against mine.
At its base, my position can't really be argued against. It's nice to see others deride it (in fact I'm glad it's a popular notion to bring up), but when you take away all the WORDS WORDS WORDS, all it essentially argues is that competent people are required to provide competent reviews, even when the job is VIDEOGAEMZZZ.
And that the current state of affairs, like in pretty much every single other profession, is that the unqualified dominate this particular industry, perhaps moreso than others, because the majority of the audience has no fucking idea how to pass coherent judgment on them.
I'm sure that's a concept lost on the majority, as well as it should be I suppose.
It is for all intents and purposes, your fault that people like Jim Sterling have a steady and paying job.
And if you don't know who that is?
That's part of the test.
edit: I'm sorry, I was so self-absorbed (happens alot) that I forgot this is off topic.
Back onto the topic - The Witcher 2 is a game made of fuckwin, and everyone should play it like a boss, and quit whining.
but I like the "easy to learn, hard to master" sort of thing
I loved Super Meat Boy but if, say a turn-based RPG is really hard I will almost definitely lose interest
The Witcher sounds like something that would make my eyes glaze over within about two minutes
http://www.audioentropy.com/
There's a few great games out there that do require homework, such as SS13, Minecraft (to an extent), and Dwarf Fortress. Are these games for everyone? No. Should all developers follow the model set by Dwarf Fortress? Hell nah. The alternative doesn't necessarily have to be 15+ hours of tutorials, either.
Thinking back on tabletop games, I really love those early nights with a new system- only knowing how my character works and being constantly amazed at all the cool shit the rest of my party can do. I wasn't required to understand the other character classes, or how spells worked if I was playing the hacking and slashing type.
Now take all of that, pile it up on one playable character, and that's how I perceive The Witcher. So. Much. Stuff. To. Learn. And it all seems required to actually get through the game.
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
There's a difference.
To me (a philistine) Dwarf Fortress looks boring as shit with graphics that are also shit.
Witcher 2 looks like it has a lot of action, an awesome story, and some bitchin' dynamic combat.
I would like to put in the disc and get in on that right away. A short tutorial telling me how to prepare for combat and pull a few sweet moves would help.
I would like it if I did not have to do homework in order to play a game that looks good and entertaining.
i tried playing it but it felt like a step backwards
it felt like i was playing an old game that was probably okay in its day
perhaps my old age has decreased my attention span