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[DnD+GW 4E Discussion] Distinctly lacks anything to Jenga

AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
edited July 2011 in Critical Failures
ITT people try to tell you the way you like to pretend playing as a fantasy elf or dwarf is wrong. Plus you're probably a jerk. Why are you such a jerk? Also that you are not playing DnD the one true way
and that you're a horrible monster. Why do you hate fun?

Here is a Dungeon:
image-2.jpg

Here is a Dragon:
white-dragon.jpg

Hence the name. Also, as a bonus picture here is Bane.
372_bane.jpg

He's so dreamy <3.

And no, he's not going anywhere from the OP. He wants you to love his manly pectoral muscles, his huge thigh muscles and bulging tip of the long hard shaft of his spear. The artist who drew this spectacular
visage of our general thread mascot and local god even has a wallpaper of him. All hail Bane!!!!

Speaking of before we go any further here, want to get the perfect way of starting 4E? Don't know where to go though? Try Wizards generously offering both a revised and improved version of Keep on the Shadowfell and the Quickstart rules? What will this cost you?

Absolutely nothing as it's completely free. Download them here.


Dungeons and Dragons is a pretty old game, originally being created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson in 1974, both of whom have passed way now. Since then it's had various iterations and editions, with the latest edition being 4th edition, published by Wizards of the Coast. The basic rules consist of three books:
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As the name suggests, this is for players and also details the games core rules like combat.
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This book details the various monsters and other things that populate most DnD worlds.
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This is for the DM and contains useful things like how much experience you have to make an encounter, treasure tables and rules for creating your own monsters.

If you want to play DnD, you usually only need the players hand book. Running a game requires those base three books and should be bought by everyone in general.

Speaking of stuff, what stuff can you look forwards to playing in this wonderful game of Dungeons and Dragons? How about a handy description of the varied options in 4E?

Your wonderful options for Playing Dungeons and Dragons 4E

The first of the core books in 4E reintroduced many core races that are familiar to anyone who has played DnD before, while also introducing some new options like Dragonborn to familiar fantasy tropes like dwarves and Elves. The main difference in race design in 4E compared to previous editions is that most races gain positive bonuses to stats (no negatives) and are generally more evenly powered across the board. No ECLs or similar are used here.

Additionally this is the book that introduced many of the core classes back to the game like fighters, rogues and wizards while again introducing new elements like the Warlord. Class design is really radical in 4E compared to the way 3E handled things, so you should be prepared for a major shock if you’re coming from a previous edition. Most classes have been broken down into a series of roles that determine what they generally do: Defender, striker, controller or leader.

Further most classes have both a power source (that mechanically ties them into certain things) and a collection of individual powers that determines how they can affect combat (usually flavored by the role
the class fits into).

The PHB introduced the following races and classes into 4E:
Spoiler:

Wizards were not finished there of course and released the second
players handbook further expanding the options available!:
Spoiler:

That not enough races and classes? Well have some more thanks to the
third players handbook!
Spoiler:

Then there are the races and the class from the campaign setting
books. First Forgotten Realms:
Spoiler:

The Eberron players guide added further races again as well as a new class!
Spoiler:

And now DDI is adding more options to the game as well – insider
exclusive (that is they won’t be printed) to boot!
Spoiler:

DM/Player Tools and Helpful Links

D&D Insider Subscriptions

D&D insider is probably the best method of keeping up to date with 4th edition at the moment. For one thing, it keeps you up to date with all that pesky errata in a simple way and if you subscribe for a month, then cancel you can get a lot of content for not a lot of overall money! You can preview some of the toys at the links below:

This of course is a subscription service and here are the current prices, with a month subscription for what you can get out of it being quite a steal if you are prepared to deal with not having everything up to date each month.
  • $71.40 for 12 months - $5.95 per month
  • $23.85 for 3 months - $7.95 per month
  • $9.95 for month

To subscribe to the D&D Insider service, click here. Prices went up in July (2009), seems about a dollar an issue for a 12 month subscription.

You can find screenshots of the Character builder here.

Aegeri on
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Posts

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    A lot of stuff has been released currently as well and I have most of it, so I'll give some minor thoughts on each and update as stuff comes out:
    Campaign Settings

    Forgotten Realms

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    Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
    Forgotten Realms Players Guide
    Scepter Tower of Spellgard

    This was the first of the campaign settings released for 4E Dungeons and Dragons in 2008. It marks a significant departure from the previous editions versions of the Forgotten Realms, which is either something people hate a lot, are indifferent to or quite like. It has enough detail that any new DM will find it a useful resource for making a campaign and providing an overall world to set that campaign in. It does not have the depth of lore or similar that previous editions have had, which is what leads to a lot of the
    negativity surrounding the setting. The players guide IMO is a useful resource even if you don't actually like the realms as a setting. Although a fair chunk of the book is dedicated to the FR, the Swordmage, races (Drow and Genasi) and feats make it a worthwhile purchase for anyone.

    The adventure is decent quality, but requires a lot of work compared to the 'core' adventure series to get fully implemented into a campaign. It also starts at level 2, which is a real pain for DMs wanting to just jump right into a 4E campaign with the adventure and some fresh level 1 PCs. We have a thread for FR as well here.
    Eberron

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    Eberron Campaign Guide
    Eberron Players Guide
    Seekers of the Ashen Crown

    We have a thread for Eberron related things
    here.

    Eberron is the second setting released and it's pretty good IMO (maybe I am biased though if you read my campaign threads on this forum). It has a lot of solid themes to the game, as it's based heavily on a kind of pulp action + noir feel that really does work. The books are absolutely gorgeous and especially the main campaign guide is worth mentioning, because the cartography of the map of the world is truly great and its packed full of great ideas and detail about Eberron. It is definitely around the top books released for 4E so far IMO. Like with FR, I feel the EPG is really worth buying as well just for the extra feats and mechanics (dragonmark feats are easily applied to other settings with little mechanical fiddling). I will say though some DMs may not like the more "magitech" feel to the Eberron specific Warforged race and Artificer class, so make sure you check with your DM before buying this for your FR or whatever setting game.

    Once again though I must complain that the adventure starts at level 2. Why on earth do they do that? It's very good though and it's a fun adventure, but I still wish they would make these adventures from level 1 so you can jump right into the fun without having to make further encounters (or starting your PCs at level 2).
    Dark Sun

    dark_sun_cg_b1y.jpg

    Dark Sun Campaign Setting
    Dark Sun Creature Catalog
    Marauders of the Dune Sea (Adventure).

    The last great book published for 4th edition before essentials was released, it is in some peoples opinion (including mine) the best of the campaign settings released for 4th edition. It is filled with great, incredibly flavorful crunch and is a really brilliant description of the world for DMs and players alike. Cleverly, most of the core stats of the antagonists and numerous athasian monsters were placed into a second dedicated monster book - instead of the players book/DMs book structure of other settings. Explaining why I love this setting would take pages, but as a short summary it truly offers something that is genuinely different to an FR/Eberron setting in flavor, feel and mechanics. Themes add a layer of mechanical depth onto PCs that feels natural and intuitive - like it could have always been there that's how well it integrates into the game as a whole. My only complaint is that the adventure kind of sucks and isn't that great, but Wizards haven't really been known for their great adventures this edition (though they have their moments, like the recent Tomb of Horrors superadventure).

    Dark Sun gets possibly one of the best pieces of art in all DnD ever:
    75.jpg

    I mean if you didn't want the creature catalog before, I bet you do now.
    Released books
    Spoiler:
    Released Adventures
    Spoiler:

    Upcoming Stuff

    Due to the fact I have no idea what Wizards is doing anymore, I'll only list what I actually know Wizards is doing.

    Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale
    Mordenkainens Magical Emporium (AKA the book that was canned and then came back from the Dead)
    Heroes of Feywild
    Book of Vile Darkness

    To be honest I'd put more but I have no clue if the stuff wizards claims is coming out will come out these days. But potential future stuff includes a second Monster Vault (Threats to the Nentir Vale), an expansion focusing on the Shadowfell, Heroes of the Feywild and the Neverwinter Campaign Setting (yes, another FR expansion for some reason). When I'm more sure of stuff coming out I shall add it here.

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Dungeons and Dragons Essentials

    dnd-red-box.jpg

    Recently Wizards re-released some things under the name "Essentials", which is 10 overall products.

    Red Box (Starter set, designed for new players)
    DMs Kit (Designed for new DMs)
    Monster Vault (Designed for DMs, is an update of many classic MM
    creatures – comes with tokens!)
    Over Expensive Dice
    Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms
    Heroes of the Fallen Lands
    Rules Compendium


    These make up the DnD essentials brand and are designed as constant "entry level" products into DnD.

    Question: What does essentials mean for your game?

    Answer: Depending on your opinions and what your DM thinks, either not very much or it's the most horrible thing ever. Some people hate essentials because it offers some very retro versions of previous classes, for example the slayer and knight, alternative new fighter builds lack daily and encounter powers. Other builds are more like their previous edition counterparts, such as the sentinel druid who is more flexible than a regular 4E class and has a dedicated pet (instead of wildshape). At the same time, many of the classes in essentials still follow the at-will, encounter, daily and utility format. In many ways all they do is add new options for playing 4E DnD. Importantly they do not replace your old books entirely. The essentials books also include the latest errata to the game as well, which is a pretty good thing and the rules compendium is the best (and most convenient) buy ever!

    So should you get essentials? There are two answers and IMO they depend on how long you've been playing.

    Playing for a while?: You probably have a decent collection of books. If you're a DM who already has DMG1 and DMG2, then don't get the DM's kit. It's a waste of time and effort unless you want the adventure. I would similarly avoid the red box if I was you as well. The rules compendium is still a must buy and the two players books (Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms are worth it). Likewise monster vault is worth buying as well.

    New player? By all means, if you're new get the red box to start with. Good introduction to DnD. Then get the DM's kit if you want to take on the role of the DM (and good luck to you). Monster Vault and Rules compendiums are must buys as well. Then pick one of the two players books you like most, probably depending on the classes in it and run with that as your first purchase. Then play DnD!
    Gamma World

    Gamma2BWorld.jpg

    Gamma World isn't strictly Dungeons and Dragons. Although it uses 4E rules it has several important differences that should be emphasized. The first is that it's a science fiction setting and that the rules have been very simplified. The other is that it inherently uses the dreaded collectible cards as a mechanic. You can get extra powers basically from cards that you wouldn't have otherwise. This works though, because gamma world is much less complex than 4E and the cards add a wonderful random variable that wouldn't be there otherwise.

    Gamma World is set on Earth (yes, our earth), after a physics experiment went wrong that simultaneously melded together numerous different universes into one. This caused the "Great Mistake", which saw to the ruining of the world and all these weird freaks running about. Speaking of weird freaks, ever wanted to be a swarm of murderous kittens? A gelatinous yeti? A tentacle laser toting alien? Gamma World is right up your ally here, because PCs are not only encouraged to be whacky things - it's mandatory. To say that gamma world is rather insane would be an understatement. It doesn't take itself seriously and is a really good distraction for a few settings before getting back into more regular Dungeons and Dragons. It's also much easier to pick up and play, due to having less overall complexity. I actually recommend this as a good way of introducing DnD to new players.
    Useful Stuff Provided By Wizards and other people

    Additionally I recommend this site, which has a wide collection of fantasy art and such forth. Some of it is distinctly NSFW however, so consider yourself warned. They love naked women.

    Another useful site is the Cartographers Guild forums. Many talented map artists at this site who make a range of maps, both large scale continental maps, town maps and dungeon maps. Some of the maps here IMO are a bit too fancy, with excessive mapsizes for use with maptools but there are some real gems on here as well. Incidentally, the guy who did the cartography for the Cormyr article in Dragon Magazine posts here as well. Here's an example.

    Infidel has provided us with a handy 4E stat calculator. Especially useful if you don't have the character builder to do it for you. The most common problem I find with 4E games is people messing up their initial point buy by a couple of points. In an unexpected twist, this is because some people tend to give themselves less points overall and accidentally gimp their character as opposed to going over the limit.

    He's also produced a handy online character sheet device, which can be found here. Seems to work pretty well and is very handy and is even becoming a popular alternative to Mythweavers around these forums. In further character sheet interests, there is also this lovely looking Victorian themed sheet available by Orikaeshigitae.

    Cheap miniatures seems to come up quite often in the thread, given that a good mini or three can make 4E a lot easier to run (probably an understatement). One place to get them is ebay, but the number and quality (even type) may be hit and miss. Another online seller of DDM is Dragon Justice, which sometimes has a good range and sometimes not. Really if you look around online you can get a good bunch of models for a fairly cheap price.

    There is a general campaign design and advice thread that I have been writing for a while over here. If you're a new DM this might be worth checking out.

    I also recommend this fellow called the Angry DM. His advice is pretty good and he's wrote a couple of really good articles on how to make solo fights more interesting.

    Infidel made a handy table listing the inherent bonuses and how they relate to masterwork armor. Very useful.

    Finally, a major collection of the games errata was released recently in a big PDF from wizards that you can get here.

    Also, as a reminder, don't discuss pirating books in this thread. It's not going to get you anything except some infractions and probably a ban. So just don't. Plus Chris Perkins is totally going to come around to your house and ruin your shit. Not to mention eat your dinner and steal your dice.

    We have a general CF IRC channel too if you're that way inclined. You'll need some chat client to use it, or something.

    irc.slashnet.org #criticalfailures

    Apparently this was SUPERSUGAs idea.
    Penny-Arcade Podcast series!

    Also, given this forum is Penny-Arcade we should in fact note that Gabe and Tycho, Scott Kurtz of PVP and after the first series Wil Wheaton sat down and played some DnD together and recorded it. There are currently three seasons and you can find links to download them all below for much good times. This is a good way of getting new people interested in DnD I've found as well.

    Series 1: Chris Perkins as DM with Jerry (PA), Mike (PA) and Scott (PvP) playing some DnD!
    Part one. Part two. Part Three. Part four. Part five. Part six. Part seven. Part eight.

    Series 2: Chris Perkins as DM with Jerry (PA), Mike (PA), Scott (PvP) and Wil ('s Law) playing some DnD!
    Part one. Part two. Part three. Part four. Part five. Part six. Part seven. Part eight.

    Series 3: Chris Perkins as DM with Jerry (PA), Mike (PA), Scott (PvP) and Wil ('s Law) playing some DnD!
    Part one. Part two. Part three. Part four. Part five. Part Six. Part Seven. Part Eight.

    Series 4: Jerry takes over the DMing mantle in Dark Sun with Mike (PA), Scott (PvP) and Kris (Krisstraub).
    Part 1. Part 2. Part 3. Part 4. Part 5.

    There is also Robot Chicken's writers playing DnD. Also features commentary on the game from Chris Perkins!

    There will also be another PA/PVP podcast featuring Wil and Chris Perkins back as DM later in the summer.

  • AegisAegis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Gary's picture will never get old.

  • soxboxsoxbox Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Aegis wrote: »
    Gary's picture will never get old.

    I keep it on my phone, so that whenever I flip through my photos I can be happy.

  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    If I was Gary, I would eat those cookies. I would fucking eat the fucking shit out of those cookies.

    1133965-1.png?1297145727
  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    The secret is that the cookies are made out of adventurers.

  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Put that cookie down now!

    10170-1.png
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Aegeri wrote: »
    The secret is that the cookies are made out of adventurers.

    If the adventurers are halflings, gnomes or eladrin, I have no issues with this.

    1133965-1.png?1297145727
  • wildwoodwildwood Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    If I was Gary, I would eat those cookies. I would fucking eat the fucking shit out of those cookies.

    Dark Sun's version of "Death by Chocolate".

  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote: »
    The secret is that the cookies are made out of adventurers.

    If the adventurers are halflings, gnomes or eladrin, I have no issues with this.

    I actually hear that elves are the tastiest.

  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Elves are all sinew and bone, no fat on 'em! No fat, no taste. That's why bacon is so good.

    1133965-1.png?1297145727
  • KayKay What we need... Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Maybe the OP requires a bit of an update, given that it refers to the DDI Assassin as 'pretty solid'.

    ew9y0DD.png
    3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Good god. It does too. Actually at some point I need to go over all that section again. Everything has changed quite a lot with essentials and sub builds demand their own categories. I thought I had updated it, but obviously something got lost in between going from old lappy to new lappy.

  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Also the Cleric needs to be revised to "Why are you playing this at Epic?"

    No of course I'm not still bitter. Why would you ask?

    Sig1.png
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Elves are all sinew and bone, no fat on 'em! No fat, no taste. That's why bacon is so good.

    must be minotaurs then

    damn

    it's got to be tough to get respect as an adventurer when you're a domesticated farm animal that can walk upright

    dmsigsmallek3.jpg
  • Ace JonAce Jon Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Whenever I see a minotaur that wasn't picked because he was the best race for his class, I'm thinking... furry? Is that guy a furry? No?

    Yours truly, Ace Jon.
  • KayKay What we need... Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I really don't get that.

    Shifters? Dragonborn? Gnolls? Sometimes people just want to be a rarr monster. Like a half-orc.

    ew9y0DD.png
    3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
  • Ace JonAce Jon Registered User
    edited June 2011
    I guess I've seen too many WoW tauren cosplays.

    Yours truly, Ace Jon.
  • RiusRius Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    For the guy who asked about tanking in Aegeri's games; just don't try to be a superhero. You will never be able to prevent the rest of the party from taking damage. His monsters can and will do shit that will defy your expectations.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Ace Jon wrote: »
    Whenever I see a minotaur that wasn't picked because he was the best race for his class, I'm thinking... furry? Is that guy a furry? No?
    Str + Con/Wis is crazy adaptable.

    Besides, sometimes you just want to headbutt things to death.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • TurksonTurkson Near the mountains of ColoradoRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    It's been months since I played DnD. What did they do to clerics?

    "You. Poet. Be sure to write this down."
  • SkyCaptainSkyCaptain Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Clerics don't exist anymore. They are Templars now. Fighters are gone. They're Weaponmasters.

    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Clerics haven't existed for thousands of years, and you've probably never heard of them.

    thisiswhyweplaydarksun.jpg

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

    Any gamers in the Danville, PA area? PM me if you're interested in some tabletop gaming.
  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Half orcs.

    That should be good for the last post of the page no one ever reads. I hate for something useful to end up down here.

    Proud member of Unrepentant Gaming! Pantless gaming at its finest.
    Check us out in Neverwinter.

  • MaxFrostMaxFrost Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Rius wrote: »
    For the guy who asked about tanking in Aegeri's games; just don't try to be a superhero. You will never be able to prevent the rest of the party from taking damage. His monsters can and will do shit that will defy your expectations.

    And he's starting a newbie game :D

    Bring it on!

  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    What could possibly go wrong?

    Speaking of defenders, has anyone min/maxed out a character with simply absurd amounts of hitpoints? I've been pondering that since my last Maptools game, where it seemed like it didn't matter what my defenses were, the DM was rolling nothing less than a 15+ and constantly hitting me. A healthy HP pool and some minor damage reduction seemed to be as good or better an investment than expending resources trying to bump an AC that simply wasn't going to hit 40 at level 10 without encounter/daily powers.

    sigone.png
  • Lord PalingtonLord Palington Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I know there's some Dragonborn builds that go crazy on their surge values/con mods/hps, but other than that I don't know how to just boost up hp.

    Pretty psyched I finally have another game scheduled for my tabletop, it's been almost two months. My monsters thirst for PC blood!

    sandman-sig.jpg
  • KayKay What we need... Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    A Con/Cha Dragonborn Battlemind can easily start off with 35 HP and 14 Surges per day that heal you for 13 HP per pop.

    You could even start with a Con of 21, have 36 HP and surges that give you 14HP each, but it's not really worth it.

    ew9y0DD.png
    3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
  • SBeastSBeast Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Wardens have the highest base HP in the game, the greatest HP gained per level, and two builds that favor Constitution as a secondary stat, so they probably have the highest raw HP values (except maybe at very low levels). Unfortunately, building Str/Con for your character's whole life will leave you with two less than ideal defenses, but you could have close to 300 hit points and around 20 surges at 30 by my estimation.

    You could also build Str/Wis warden for better defenses and use one of the backgrounds that lets you swap a different stat for Constitution to determine HP, but you'd have less HP over the course of a day due to fewer surges (or even over an encounter due to not having a good +Con boost to surge value from your dragonborn/dwarf racial).

    Or you could just be incredibly cheesy and do the below zero revenant thing, which adds a lot of effective health to your character without you necessarily having to be a particularly tough class. A revenant (dwarf) earthstrength warden would be pretty tough to kill outright.

  • AegisAegis Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Forar wrote: »
    What could possibly go wrong?

    Speaking of defenders, has anyone min/maxed out a character with simply absurd amounts of hitpoints? I've been pondering that since my last Maptools game, where it seemed like it didn't matter what my defenses were, the DM was rolling nothing less than a 15+ and constantly hitting me. A healthy HP pool and some minor damage reduction seemed to be as good or better an investment than expending resources trying to bump an AC that simply wasn't going to hit 40 at level 10 without encounter/daily powers.

    It's not generally advisable to make your defender absolutely unkillable (namely, having all your feats be personal defense) because there comes a point at which the monsters will just ignore you and attack the rest of the party. Sure you have marks but because you've focused on personal defense, you've not invested in feats and the like that make your commands more painful or harder to ignore.

  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Kay wrote: »
    A Con/Cha Dragonborn Battlemind can easily start off with 35 HP and 14 Surges per day that heal you for 13 HP per pop.

    You could even start with a Con of 21, have 36 HP and surges that give you 14HP each, but it's not really worth it.
    Endurance Training and Swift Recovery will make that even more ridiculous if you want, plus the various belts of +surge value. Oh, and the Toughness/Durable feats by level 4 if you want to be really silly about it (Lv4 dragonborn battlemind, 20 Con, w/ belt of vigor, swift recovery, toughness and durable: 58HP and 16 surges each worth 23HP).

    Similar things to be said about Wardens and especially with their ability to save at the start of the turn which can make defender-crippling things like dazes and such much less so.

    ...because dragons are AWESOME! That's why.
    Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
    DropBox invite link - get 250MB extra free.
  • AnialosAnialos RPG MPD patient #1 Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    MaxFrost wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    For the guy who asked about tanking in Aegeri's games; just don't try to be a superhero. You will never be able to prevent the rest of the party from taking damage. His monsters can and will do shit that will defy your expectations.

    And he's starting a newbie game :D

    Bring it on!

    Yes, my fighter with the charge at-will that marks everything will live a long life I'm sure.

    Dichotomy wrote: »
    I play a lot of video games but I wouldn't call myself a "gamer" because "gamer" has become a pretty fucking disgusting label

    like "skinhead" or "republican"
  • LitejediLitejedi Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Interestingly, the assaultmage I built for my friend for the very end of Tomb of Horrors has effectively 320 HP at level 22, because he's nearly always insubstantial. So even defender-lites can get up there if you build properly.

    3DS FC: 1907-9450-1017
    lj_graaaaahhhhh.gif
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic I've Done Worse Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Kay wrote: »
    A Con/Cha Dragonborn Battlemind can easily start off with 35 HP and 14 Surges per day that heal you for 13 HP per pop.

    You could even start with a Con of 21, have 36 HP and surges that give you 14HP each, but it's not really worth it.
    Endurance Training and Swift Recovery will make that even more ridiculous if you want, plus the various belts of +surge value. Oh, and the Toughness/Durable feats by level 4 if you want to be really silly about it (Lv4 dragonborn battlemind, 20 Con, w/ belt of vigor, swift recovery, toughness and durable: 58HP and 16 surges each worth 23HP).

    Similar things to be said about Wardens and especially with their ability to save at the start of the turn which can make defender-crippling things like dazes and such much less so.

    I think some of the Boons actually came out a bit better than the belts, though they might have just been cooler.

    Trogg wrote: »
    Not as positive as AIDS and cancer, but positive nonetheless.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Anialos wrote: »
    MaxFrost wrote: »
    Rius wrote: »
    For the guy who asked about tanking in Aegeri's games; just don't try to be a superhero. You will never be able to prevent the rest of the party from taking damage. His monsters can and will do shit that will defy your expectations.

    And he's starting a newbie game :D

    Bring it on!

    Yes, my fighter with the charge at-will that marks everything will live a long life I'm sure.
    Oh, you'll be fine. Charging is just about the best thing a Fighter can do, since they get the mark on attacks. Just grab yourself a Badge of the Berserker and go nuts.

    I had a Fighter whose at wills were Dual Strike and Threatening Rush who basically spent every turn marking every bad guy on the field. He did just fine.
    Spoiler:

    No fear, man. Get up in their grill and show them who's boss.
    Spoiler:

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

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  • AnialosAnialos RPG MPD patient #1 Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    <3 <3

    Dichotomy wrote: »
    I play a lot of video games but I wouldn't call myself a "gamer" because "gamer" has become a pretty fucking disgusting label

    like "skinhead" or "republican"
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Aegis wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    What could possibly go wrong?

    Speaking of defenders, has anyone min/maxed out a character with simply absurd amounts of hitpoints? I've been pondering that since my last Maptools game, where it seemed like it didn't matter what my defenses were, the DM was rolling nothing less than a 15+ and constantly hitting me. A healthy HP pool and some minor damage reduction seemed to be as good or better an investment than expending resources trying to bump an AC that simply wasn't going to hit 40 at level 10 without encounter/daily powers.

    It's not generally advisable to make your defender absolutely unkillable (namely, having all your feats be personal defense) because there comes a point at which the monsters will just ignore you and attack the rest of the party. Sure you have marks but because you've focused on personal defense, you've not invested in feats and the like that make your commands more painful or harder to ignore.

    You can actually tow this line with certain kinds of Dragonborn defenders.

    They have a lot of racial feats that make them stronger when bloodied. With the right build and item selection you can be bloodied while also being a tough motherfucker who is dangerous to ignore and difficult to take down.

    It can be exciting to play this kind of defender, because you basically have to figure out how to stay bloodied for a large portion of the encounter without actually getting killed.

    dmsigsmallek3.jpg
  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Kay wrote: »
    A Con/Cha Dragonborn Battlemind can easily start off with 35 HP and 14 Surges per day that heal you for 13 HP per pop.

    You could even start with a Con of 21, have 36 HP and surges that give you 14HP each, but it's not really worth it.
    Endurance Training and Swift Recovery will make that even more ridiculous if you want, plus the various belts of +surge value. Oh, and the Toughness/Durable feats by level 4 if you want to be really silly about it (Lv4 dragonborn battlemind, 20 Con, w/ belt of vigor, swift recovery, toughness and durable: 58HP and 16 surges each worth 23HP).

    Similar things to be said about Wardens and especially with their ability to save at the start of the turn which can make defender-crippling things like dazes and such much less so.

    I think some of the Boons actually came out a bit better than the belts, though they might have just been cooler.

    Oh yeah, you can add Battle-Scarred Champion to that too, for another +1 surge value and a free MBA when bloodied. And liberal use of woundpatches will bring you up to healing to bloodied from zero in one surge. The one problem is that doing all this sort of makes Healing Potions redundant; sure it's nice to heal as a Minor, but you're effectively "wasting" 14HP each time.

    ...because dragons are AWESOME! That's why.
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  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Just looked at the Seer theme from Dragon. That looks hilarious and awesome. "What's my fortune?.. Why are you all quiet and stuff?" *covers up the three 1's* "Um. Nothin. You'll be fine."

    Alternatively "Use something stupid! Okay now use your fucking daily! It'll be awesome, trust me!"

    10170-1.png
  • AegeriAegeri Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    But then again you're usually going to make sure that you live by drinking a potion at the right time. Most of the time I've seen the healing fruits or potions used, it's after some other kind of healing to provide a bit more of a buffer on top of existing healing (usually because some creature hits very hard).

    In terms of marking, I think it's important for the defender to mark only what they can handle but make themselves an "attractive target". I don't waste my time trying to hit unhittable characters when roleplaying intelligent antagonists and even unintelligent ones can be a pain. A zombie doesn't think about attacking others and will simply pelt the nearest unfortunate who hit them. Marks are really a way of reducing or spreading damage out around the party - but trying to hold a bunch of creatures attention isn't very workable. With monster damage as it is, when something chews you to pieces and knocks you unconscious marks are no longer relevant.
    Horseshoe wrote:
    They have a lot of racial feats that make them stronger when bloodied. With the right build and item selection you can be bloodied while also being a tough motherfucker who is dangerous to ignore and difficult to take down.
    There is one flaw in this plan: Modern lurkers. The problem with hanging around your bloodied value is that many lurkers have a structure that is "Miss turn" and then "Do ridiculous damage next turn". As an example let's look at a new level 2 lurker from Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentire Vale. Consider the Dragonborn battlemind mentioned above by Kay. He'll have 42 HP at level 2, giving him a bloodied value of 21. Seems impressive enough. Unfortunately, this focus means he'll certainly be tanking reflex - but that's okay as he does have other advantages.

    He hangs around his bloodied value for various bonuses, not realizing the monster that turned into a ball of smoke and done nothing last turn has plans. On its next turn, it wanders up to him and then changes back into its sinister humanoid form. Oddly enough given this monster is a tiefling, it's almost like bringing some old rivalries back to the table! He then stabs at the Dragonborn from hells deepest darkest heart. His attack targets reflex, with a +1 bonus because you're hanging around bloodied. Your reflex is probably somewhere between horrible and shocking, so he's going to hit more than likely (probably with CA as well for his traits effect). This does 2d6+14 damage up front, basically on an average roll instantly knocking you unconscious and probably doing so even if you are exactly at bloodied.

    Now you're bleeding to death and go "MR CLERIC" and then the DM smiles. You wonder what that is about and hear "Did I mention that creature prevents you from spending healing surges until the end of its next turn?". So now you're bleeding on the floor unconscious AND unable to do anything - effectively megastunned until the end of that creatures next turn. If you do get up - good luck dealing with whatever you were trying to deal with early on single digit HP (And no way of spending a second wind and such). Even if you don't get knocked down, you have the envious position of sitting there on something like 2 HP. At this point I would play what I call bold DnD and go nuts with nothing to lose. Spend APs, stick a few daily powers in or whatever else - you'll go down anyway (possibly even dying in the process if you are unlucky enough to get attacked by a creature with multiple attacks and no other targets) so go down swinging away Joey!

    Point is that this is a *really* dangerous strategy in the overall metagame now. Lurkers can get ridiculous damage bonuses (For the level 5 example from Mr. Rose, replace the above with the Wraith, for level 7, the Anakore*, level 9 Gargoyle and such forth).

    *Technically this creature attacks twice vs. bloodied enemies rather than following the same structure, but he does hit like a dump truck, as one of my players recently discovered :!:

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