It is pretty aggressive in parts. I'll consider toning it down a bit, and I esh I get that you think I'm hardcore overreacting here. Perhaps I could take a less hardline tack, but I have something else to consider here:
Strong action to protect the family from the woman is going to help my wife get past this event more quickly and with less misery than if I play peacemaker. I'm very willing to take the steps needed to make sure she feels safe, even if they seem harsh.
However, I don't want to provoke her so much as make it clear that her behavior is noted, and won't be tolerated.
Iruka: There's no public park nearby, and I count ten other neighbors off the top of my head who walk their dogs on the sidewalk. Half of them have labs or larger animals, and all of them poop on or near the sidewalk sometimes. In short, it's pretty common to see dogs being walked down the street.
spool32 on
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
Yes, but your neighbor does not know about your wife's condition, and honestly, are you that scared of some elderly woman? Let her know about your concerns in a concise and neutral tone. You haven't even TRIED to play nice with this woman, so why are you jumping right to the aggressive nature? That makes you absolutely no better than your neighbor.
I understand what you're trying to do, but step back, count to ten, and think about how to resolve the situation in a less aggressive way. You're going from Step 1 straight to Step 5 here.
Yes, but your neighbor does not know about your wife's condition, and honestly, are you that scared of some elderly woman? Let her know about your concerns in a concise and neutral tone. You haven't even TRIED to play nice with this woman, so why are you jumping right to the aggressive nature? That makes you absolutely no better than your neighbor.
I understand what you're trying to do, but step back, count to ten, and think about how to resolve the situation in a less aggressive way. You're going from Step 1 straight to Step 5 here.
No he's not. He's being a fucking monk from my perspective. Regardless of what that woman doesn't know EVERY adult should know it's not at all ok to go to someone's door and yell at them - let alone their kids.
I would take Esh's advice of stepping back from the situation for a day though. This person is your neighbour and you're kinda stuck with them. That being said, I'd be sending the letter.
SatanIsMyMotor on
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Yes, but your neighbor does not know about your wife's condition, and honestly, are you that scared of some elderly woman? Let her know about your concerns in a concise and neutral tone. You haven't even TRIED to play nice with this woman, so why are you jumping right to the aggressive nature? That makes you absolutely no better than your neighbor.
I understand what you're trying to do, but step back, count to ten, and think about how to resolve the situation in a less aggressive way. You're going from Step 1 straight to Step 5 here.
No he's not. He's being a fucking monk from my perspective. Regardless of what that woman doesn't know EVERY adult should know it's not at all ok to go to someone's door and yell at them - let alone their kids.
People make mistakes in the heat of the moment. It's worth the time to try and calm things down before deciding to escalate them. That's what I'm suggesting here.
I can but it's not reasonable, it's not a violation of the ordinance, I'm not the only person on the street who occasionally does it, and her reaction cannot be tolerated even a single other time, for the health and well-being of my wife and kids. That's really the bottom line, here. I'm happy to walk the dogs on the other side of the street, or the other direction, but I simply cannot have her behave this way again. It's too destructive, in ways that exceed what seems rational. I need to take some action that will, as best I can, guarantee this never happens again.
PTSD is not a problem you can overcome by pointing out the reactions are irrational. The clear knowledge of this fact is a fundamental component of the disorder.
spool32 on
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
I can but it's not reasonable, it's not a violation of the ordinance, I'm not the only person on the street who occasionally does it, and her reaction cannot be tolerated even a single other time, for the health and well-being of my wife and kids. That's really the bottom line, here. I'm happy to walk the dogs on the other side of the street, or the other direction, but I simply cannot have her behave this way again. It's too destructive, in ways that exceed what seems rational. I need to take some action that will, as best I can, guarantee this never happens again.
PTSD is not a problem you can overcome by pointing out the reactions are irrational. The clear knowledge of this fact is a fundamental component of the disorder.
The course you're planning on taking doesn't guarantee anything not happening again. In fact, from her initial reaction, it'll probably just worsen the situation. I'd put money on the fact that if you calmly explain the situation, she'll back off.
I really, really understand what you're going through here, but I think you're taking a really bad approach. Your knee-jerk reaction to her watering her lawn/driveway started this situation, and by doing the exact same thing again, how do you think that's going to help matters? She already knows you're willing to call the police.
EDIT: If you really want to put it in a letter. Keep it short and sweet. Explain your wife's disability, tell her that she needs to stay away from your house and front door, and leave it at that. Don't accuse her of anything, don't call her names, don't threaten her. Just tell her what she needs to not do. That way you have it in writing and if she does it again, you can call the cops. You don't have to tell her that, she's already aware of what you're capable of.
Anyway, that's my opinion and I'm done. I'd be curious to know how you resolved the situation though when it happens.
In regards to the letter, I'm not talking about trying to play peacemaker at all, I'm just saying you should cover your own ass and make sure the tone of your letter isn't off. The old lady is very wrong, yeah, but you are officially informing her of the situation and telling her any further contact is trespassing. Even if you aren't using any offensive language, lecturing her further in legalese is just indulging your anger. Even if that feels good, thats not making your wife any safer, and if anything might exacerbate the situation.
If you want to have a conversation, have one, but you don't want to. You are simply trying to make it obvious to her, and the police, that you are stating to keep away.
Spool, you seem to still have trouble with the concept that you are making a choice between taking an ACTION that is right (in the sense that it is legally permissible) and how to get the RESULT that you want. What is more important to you? Proving in the letter of the law that this woman is wrong, or securing a happier home for your wife and kids? Because it should come as no surprise to you that human beings are not wired to do what they are told, especially by an upstart jerk neighbor that leaves poop on her yard and has a noisy rude dog--from her perspective. It doesn't matter if this is true or not because you're acting like Judge Dredd around her, so how is her perspective going to change? (Imagine how you would feel if I dropped a piece of dog poop on your sidewalk every day and then picked it up, leaving a mark. I'm not breaking the law, but it's not very neighborly either.)
Yes, everything you've done so far you have the legal right to do, but in my own experience of living in inner city Oakland, you get WAY better results by going up to someone's door with a bottle of wine and treating them like a normal human being that just got caught up in the moment. If you don't give her a chance to act like a neighbor, you're encouraging her to be as big of a jerk as possible without breaking the law. Is that what you really want? If it comes down to it, you can always tell her off LATER, but trying the good neighbor treatment might lead to better long-term results. You WILL be running into this person periodically until one of you moves, so try to look for a solution that doesn't give your family the uh-oh feeling every time you see her.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
0
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
edited June 2011
It's hard to make sure an attempt at civil, face-to-face conversation that goes wrong is recorded, and she's already shown that she's willing to walk onto your property and fly off the handle. She may even view your attempt to approach her house as threatening and call the police on you. I think a certified letter is the best way to go, but I would keep it short and simple, and probably cut the length by at least half. There's a bunch of stuff you don't really need to say in there, and in my experience, extra words are almost never helpful.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I'm going to mostly agree here, the letter sounds like a good idea, but maybe civilize it a little. I would punch all of my neighbors in the face everyday (barring the legal consequences) if it meant that my wife felt safe. I don't know anyone with PTSD, but I understand its sucks. Sure, a formal letter isn't the *neighborly* thing to do, but it's a perfectly legal thing to do, and the letter explains the reason for the quick elevation. Spool32 doesn't want to "come up with a situation that works" he wants her to stay off his property and never talk to his wife or children again. A legalized and formal letter is one of few (and probably the lowest amount of agressiveness) legal ways to do that.
I fully support you Spool32, good job on getting the vacuum extension and instructing your children to avoid her yard. If you ever do get the chance to redo that back yard, it would be another good step, but you've made as many concessions for her as you need to.
RadicalTurnip on
0
Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
I disagree with the whole premise of the letter. Just go next door, knock on it and explain it to her like a human being.
The letter and the mention of your lawyers really reads like empty threats.
Did she actually fly off the handle? You seem hyperaware to all her behaviors, so are you having some issues with this kind of stuff in other areas of your life? My base recommendation is do what adults do and deal with it civilly. This all seems a bit petty.
Often times, adults think overly complicated letters and processes like this is what "adults" are supposed to do. Honestly, why waste a bunch of emotional energy on a one time thing?
So, just to be sure I understand what you're saying here: two years ago, instead of walking next door and telling your neighbor "hey, would you mind not spraying down your driveway, please," you called the cops on her, and probably got her fined several hundred dollars. Then, recently, she finds piles of dog shit in her yard, next to the very large amount of dog hair that you're essentially dumping there, and jumps to the entirely reasonable conclusion that since you don't clean up after your dog hair, you probably don't clean up after your dog shit, and it's your dog?
I mean, I'm not saying her reaction was how people should act, but I certainly understand why she acted that way. And this is what I get from hearing a story presumably biased in your favor.
Man up, go over to her house, and apologize. Explain that you didn't have anything to do with the dog shit on her lawn, that you didn't realize the dog hair was upsetting her, and that in the future, you will make a point of cleaning it up. Then apologize for being such a dick with the water restriction thing, say that you should have said something to her about it instead of calling the cops, and in the future, you will.
Follow that up by telling her that your wife doesn't handle things like that well, and ask that in the future she just call you with any problems she has, and give her your cell phone number.
You don't actually have to believe any of what you're saying, you just have to make it sound sincere. Regardless of what you do from here, I assume you're not planning on moving out of your house, so you're going to have to live next to these people for awhile; it's much better to have a good relationship with them than to have legal protections against them doing anything bad to you.
I'd lead with your corrective actions and probably bring up the change in grooming habits. Right now she won't read anything past the first time you mention "vulgarity, slander and threats".
I would also probably keep the statement of unacceptable behavior in one paragraph, towards the end and then place the formal request to stay away following. I would place your contact info in the beginning in the polite section before the confrontational section. It will have a much greater chance of being read then.
Nah its fine as is. If you're too much an idiot to read the entirety of a letter that is sent via certified mail, the consequences are on you.
Letters is fine, OP might want to invest in security cams or some other recording device, and theres the possibility she might fly of the handle and go break some windows or something.
See my assumption is that spool wants the conflict to stop and so actually wanted her to read the parts I mentioned. You're advice appears geared towards baiting her into getting herself arrested. One of these things will accomplish the goal of not having spool's wife confronted with a traumatizing situation again while the other actually increases the chances of that situation occurring.
I think you should send the letter and make a face-to-face conversation with her.
The letter should be just for proof that you have communicated your request, so I agree with others that you should shorten it.
The face-to-face with your neighbor is to talk to her and explain why this is actually happening, possibly go into more detail explaining your wife's issue and why your neighbors actions were so damaging. I think the face-to-face would make the letter not so threatening, but still get your point across.
Good luck with everything, I hope it works out and she actually doesn't bother you anymore
She did fly off the handle, yes. It's not the first time either, but it was the most dramatic. She was screaming obscenities at my wife in the front yard after she went outside to find out who came to the door.
I took the advice to cool down a bit and revise again for less confrontation. I'm certainly not levelling empty threats here, and I don't feel like I was being a dick over the water violation.
If you're committed to going the letter route, you need to keep it short and sweet.
Paragraph 1: Acknowledge her issues, real or perceived, and explain the steps you're taking to minimize your dog's impact on her property via bagging hair, not walking him part her house.
Paragraph 2: Briefly explain your wife's condition and how it's aggravated by stress, confrontation and people at the door. Note your childrens' ages and how you are requesting her to make YOU the single point of contact for any issues that arise in the future. Any contact with family members other than yourself is forbidden.
Paragraph 3: Closing pleasantries. Bullshit about "in the interest of maintaining a pleasant neighborhood" and yadda yadda.
Don't mention the water thing (it's not relevant to your current needs), don't mention the police (that's escalating). Keep it short and to the point, avoid anything that could be construed as hyperbole or exagerration.
DivideByZero on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
edited June 2011
I know a thing or two about PTSD. If I were your wife I would much prefer that you send a polite but firm letter than go anywhere near her house.
edit: also, pretty much exactly what the guy above me who isn't possible said.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
She did fly off the handle, yes. It's not the first time either, but it was the most dramatic. She was screaming obscenities at my wife in the front yard after she went outside to find out who came to the door.
I took the advice to cool down a bit and revise again for less confrontation. I'm certainly not levelling empty threats here, and I don't feel like I was being a dick over the water violation.
I'll post the revised letter shortly
You don't need to feel like you were a dick over the water thing in order to apologize for it.
Thanatos on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
edited June 2011
1) The water thing is not his fault. It's hers. She broke a law, he responded in a way that was completely valid and legal. Whatever came of it can't have bothered her that much, because she's still doing it. He did not do anything wrong at all and there is no reason for him to apologize.
2) She DID do something very, very wrong. She came to his house and yelled at his family, and she SHOULD apologize. When someone does something like that, you do not apologize. I wouldn't even want to send the message to her that if you're upset with my action then treating my family that way will earn you an apology. It should not earn you a bottle of wine and an attempt at pleasant conversation. That's awful.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I'm with Thanatos on this one - man up and head over, apologize for the fur, tell her the poop isn't yours (or your dogs for that matter) and that your wife has a disability where something like a verbal altercation can trigger a reaction. I especially like offering your cell number for future issues.
If you go the letter route start over from scratch - yours is rude, condescending and would immediately rub anyone the wrong way.
If this person were my friend to start with and then flew off the handle, I'd try to talk to them and save the friendship. If I had a friendly old neighbor that was breaking the law because she has trouble raking the grass, I'd offer to rake her leaves for her.
When you initiate a conversation with respect, it opens the door to receiving respect. Treating her nicely isn't a "prize" for her being a silly goose, it's a way to show her that you are willing to do the adult thing first, even if she is not. And to be clear, the adult thing is compromise, not self-righteousness.
She did something wrong. She should apologize. Once she does those things, your life will be so much better. So put yourself in a position to make her want to apologize. Sending angry letters and calling the cops doesn't do that.
You ALWAYS have the option to take the unbending-legal route, but once you do, you will never again have the option to try and smooth things over. Maybe you're already past that point, but one honest try should be worth it.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
I don't think I feel comfortable telling spool to apologize to his neighbor to make peace. I think the letter is a good alternative if he doesn't at least want to confront her face to face, and she probably would stab him or something if he tried.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
The only thing I'd say Spool has done that warrants an apology is the dog hair thing, and even then it was more a misunderstanding than an intentional act of vandalism. He doesn't even HAVE to apologize, just word the letter in such a way as to say, "I realize my dog's hair getting onto your property annoyed you; here's what I'm doing to rectify that situation. In the meantime, even though I can assure you that my dog isn't responsible for the poop on your lawn, I'll be walking him away from your property from now on."
And really, don't bring up the water citation. Even though she was 100% (legally) in the wrong to do it, and you were 100% (legally) in the right to report it, it has no bearing on the ideal result of the letter, Gettting Her to Leave Your Family Alone. Bringing it up in any way is only going to make her angrier.
DivideByZero on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
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Foolproofthats what my hearts becomein that place you dare not look staring back at youRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
a bad situation is bad enough, a person should do what they can to keep it from getting worse.
The law should be your last resort because they won't always protect you and yours. You might not have the time and money your neighbor does once the courts get involved.
Your neighbor sounds like a real piece of work and she might even be crazy. I would try to avoid having a crazy neighbor angry with me even if I did nothing wrong. If someone poisons your dog or harasses your wife you might not be able to prove it is the person you think it is and then the law won't be able to help you.
Clean up the weeds in your back yard and train your dog to poop and pee there before your walks. Dogs are very trainable and if the weeds are only in your backyard and not everywhere else your dog goes to the bathroom then they are obviously controllable too. Even if no one else is overreacting you might still being getting on their nerves, why chance it? People who don't have dogs don't always see things the way you see things.
The suggestion about getting a fence and lockable gate for your property sounds like a good way to make your wife more comfortable. It would keep this situation from reoccurring and would discourage other kinds of trouble too. A few 'beware of the dog' signs and your wife can just put the hound on anyone who wants to climb the fence. Sounds like a good return for all the dog food you are buying. Having an akita and a fence to protect me would be two visible and very real discouragements to any kind of misbehavior. (Who knows, with a doctor's note the fence might even be something you can write off on your taxes.)
If I were you then I'd worry about preventing more trouble and not who is right and who is wrong. Being right and having the law on your side ain't worth dick when you are dealing with a crazy person, I know this from hard personal experience.
You guys have way more faith in humanity that I do.
We had a neighbor just like her. After you apologized for any wrongdoing (whether your fault or not) she just acted like a smug asshole that she was right and you were wrong and just complained more. Puke on the grass? Yours, clean it up bitch.
Dog hair on the lawn? Yours, clean it up bitch.
Person shit in her toilet? Yours, clean it up bitch.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
I can but it's not reasonable, it's not a violation of the ordinance, I'm not the only person on the street who occasionally does it, and her reaction cannot be tolerated even a single other time, for the health and well-being of my wife and kids. That's really the bottom line, here. I'm happy to walk the dogs on the other side of the street, or the other direction, but I simply cannot have her behave this way again. It's too destructive, in ways that exceed what seems rational. I need to take some action that will, as best I can, guarantee this never happens again.
PTSD is not a problem you can overcome by pointing out the reactions are irrational. The clear knowledge of this fact is a fundamental component of the disorder.
It's also not a violation of the ordinance to open your window and hold a megaphone up to your ass every time you have to break wind, but I'm sure you can see how a neighbour might take issue with that kind of disturbance.
I don't like it either when someone's dog takes a shit on my lawn, even when they clean it up. It's not like he dropped his car keys and picked them up, there is still left-over fecal matter on my lawn. What about the times when your dog's movements aren't exactly solid form? Are you going to get your Dyson out and suck that up?
You have to live next to this woman. No one is saying she is a saint. No one is saying she is pleasant. No one is saying you have to become her friend. But you do have to live next to her. Would you rather live next to someone around whom you're on edge all the time, or would you rather live next to someone with whom you don't speak but know where you stand?
I agree with Esh. Talking to her before sending a letter is a good idea. Hell, you could be right, and maybe she flies off the handle again. Case closed. Send the letter. Live next to the wicked witch of the west for the rest of your (or her) time there. But maybe, just maybe, she'll see that her behaviour was unacceptable and that you won't tolerate her talking to your family that way (or at all) in the future, and you'll live civilly next door from here on out. And perhaps you might see that the old lady doesn't want crusts of your dog's giant shit and clumps of fur all over her property.
Try talking first, because if you pull out the sledgehammer to crack this walnut, you're going to have to live with the little bits of shell all over your carpet from here on out.
1) The water thing is not his fault. It's hers. She broke a law, he responded in a way that was completely valid and legal. Whatever came of it can't have bothered her that much, because she's still doing it. He did not do anything wrong at all and there is no reason for him to apologize.
2) She DID do something very, very wrong. She came to his house and yelled at his family, and she SHOULD apologize. When someone does something like that, you do not apologize. I wouldn't even want to send the message to her that if you're upset with my action then treating my family that way will earn you an apology. It should not earn you a bottle of wine and an attempt at pleasant conversation. That's awful.
Legally speaking, he did nothing wrong. However, from her perspective, he called the cops on her for an incredibly stupid reason (again, from her perspective), regularly dumps a bunch of dog hair in her yard, and now is letting his dog shit in her yard without cleaning it up, too.
If I were her, I would probably be pretty upset, too. My suggestion at least has a chance of working out their differences; writing passive-aggressive letters threatening legal action isn't going to improve the living situation one iota. And if it doesn't work, he can always write a letter, later.
But hey, yeah, maybe escalating things with people you have to live next to is a better plan. Especially with a wife who has PTSD. I'm sure there's no way that can go wrong.
In six months when you're posting asking advice about the expensive, burgeoning protracted lawsuit you're having with your neighbor, you should think about the sorts of decisions you made that led you to that point.
I mean, I guess the letter takes more of an "I don't take shit from anyone" sort of a hardline stance. While that might get them to leave you alone, it's really not going to reduce your worry at all. And I would think if you wanted to really help your wife, you would more prefer to attempt to make an actual peace with your neighbor, instead of trying to hold things at a constant state of armistice.
As an additional clarification, the idea that spool should apologize isn't , "I'm sorry about calling the cops on you two years ago." It's, "I'm sorry that we've been unable to work out our differences as adults, and I'd like to take some time to address that."
Think of it as verbal judo. She's ready for a fight, she's not ready for you to be kind and understanding.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
0
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
edited June 2011
If he goes to her door with no witnesses, no matter how reasonable he's trying to be, she can say anything happened, and that is what I'm worried about. If he sends her a letter, not the one he posted but one revised to sound less like an attack, then she can say "and that horrible man sent me a letter."
I mean she's already proven herself to be such a reasonable adult, how could approaching her property or her person fail?
Neither option is great. The letter route is much safer, and I know that if I were the wife I would probably feel better about that. I'm not the wife, and you should probably talk to your wife. If you want a legal/official way of dealing with this issue, the letter is it. If you want to walk onto her property and hope for the best, there's that too.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I don't think that the conversation that occurs by going to her door would be a problem, as it's just he-said-she-said if she lies, but I do see how she might get agitated by him showing up at all.
It's important to remember that she is a person too. If she wrote in for help saying she was afraid of dogs but this man kept glaring at her and walking his scary dog by her house so she yelled at his kids, I'd advise that she was acting foolish and needed to apologize and should bring you a fruit basket. It's a trait of humanity that we want to say "I have all these special needs I didn't tell anyone about, but that stranger is an evil heartless monster!," but I promise you that it's worth it to give peace a chance. At the very least, you'll get to feel even MORE entitled when you do give her the smack down
I feel what you're saying, Ceres. I live in a bad neighborhood and I know my wife worries when I go talk to some of our neighbors. We do have neighbors that have yelled and told me not to talk to them anymore, so I don't. But it is nice that I do have a lot of polite neighbors now that used to play music late at night, just because I asked them to stop. It's way better than waiting for the cops to show up, since they usually don't.
Both suggestions (talking or a letter) are good ones, especially if done politely rather than in anger. The letter can be beneficial to her as well, to have more time to collect her thoughts as well as showing her you're open to that form of communication.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
It feels odd...but I am in 100% agreement with Thanatos.
I felt the same shivers.
I completely and totally agree with what Thanatos is suggesting and feel it is the best way to handle the situation.
Let me third that one. Something I never thought I'd do.
There's a huge difference between what you CAN do (call the cops) and what you SHOULD do (try to maintain neighborly relations before burning that bridge which is what the letter and threats of police will do).
People break the law in tiny ways EVERY DAY. All of you do it. If we all called the cops on every minor infraction we saw...I can't even imagine.
I'll throw my hat in as someone who agrees with Thanatos too (although, he's right about cops as well).
I can understand why someone would have massive problems with a dog being on their lawn in the first place. I am deathly afraid of dogs and don't want to see them when I'm walking down the street, let alone when I'm on my property. I'm not saying this woman is afraid of dogs, but there are a lot of legitimate reasons for her to be annoyed by the manner in which you assume her property is an acceptable place for your dog and your dog's remnants.
LoveIsUnity on
0
Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
I hate dogs and I think your reaction to him walking his dog is pretty unreasonable. Unless you have a fence and/or a hedge, when someone walks past your property with a dog, it is very likely that the dog is going to investigate the few inches of grass next to the sidewalk. If this is completely unacceptable to you, then the problem is yours, not the dog owners. And so long as he cleans up any dog poop that is left by his akita, which he says he does, again the problem is yours.
Let me re-iterate. I. Fucking. Hate. Dogs. But you guys are about a hair's breadth from calling for the defacto banning of dogs. The only thing he's done wrong with his dog is let the hair blow away. Other than that he's being a goddamn angel with his akita. Most people in every neighborhood I've lived in can't be bothered to clean up the dog poop their animal leaves behind.
It feels odd...but I am in 100% agreement with Thanatos.
I felt the same shivers.
I completely and totally agree with what Thanatos is suggesting and feel it is the best way to handle the situation.
Let me third that one. Something I never thought I'd do.
There's a huge difference between what you CAN do (call the cops) and what you SHOULD do (try to maintain neighborly relations before burning that bridge which is what the letter and threats of police will do).
People break the law in tiny ways EVERY DAY. All of you do it. If we all called the cops on every minor infraction we saw...I can't even imagine.
I think the issue here is the perception of the gravity of the violation. I'm also in Texas, in a water-restricted area. We're having the worst drought right now we've had in over a decade. While I would say something to the person before calling the cops, ignoring the restrictions for something as trivial as not wanting to sweep a driveway is not jaywalking.
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Strong action to protect the family from the woman is going to help my wife get past this event more quickly and with less misery than if I play peacemaker. I'm very willing to take the steps needed to make sure she feels safe, even if they seem harsh.
However, I don't want to provoke her so much as make it clear that her behavior is noted, and won't be tolerated.
Iruka: There's no public park nearby, and I count ten other neighbors off the top of my head who walk their dogs on the sidewalk. Half of them have labs or larger animals, and all of them poop on or near the sidewalk sometimes. In short, it's pretty common to see dogs being walked down the street.
I understand what you're trying to do, but step back, count to ten, and think about how to resolve the situation in a less aggressive way. You're going from Step 1 straight to Step 5 here.
No he's not. He's being a fucking monk from my perspective. Regardless of what that woman doesn't know EVERY adult should know it's not at all ok to go to someone's door and yell at them - let alone their kids.
I would take Esh's advice of stepping back from the situation for a day though. This person is your neighbour and you're kinda stuck with them. That being said, I'd be sending the letter.
People make mistakes in the heat of the moment. It's worth the time to try and calm things down before deciding to escalate them. That's what I'm suggesting here.
PTSD is not a problem you can overcome by pointing out the reactions are irrational. The clear knowledge of this fact is a fundamental component of the disorder.
The course you're planning on taking doesn't guarantee anything not happening again. In fact, from her initial reaction, it'll probably just worsen the situation. I'd put money on the fact that if you calmly explain the situation, she'll back off.
I really, really understand what you're going through here, but I think you're taking a really bad approach. Your knee-jerk reaction to her watering her lawn/driveway started this situation, and by doing the exact same thing again, how do you think that's going to help matters? She already knows you're willing to call the police.
EDIT: If you really want to put it in a letter. Keep it short and sweet. Explain your wife's disability, tell her that she needs to stay away from your house and front door, and leave it at that. Don't accuse her of anything, don't call her names, don't threaten her. Just tell her what she needs to not do. That way you have it in writing and if she does it again, you can call the cops. You don't have to tell her that, she's already aware of what you're capable of.
Anyway, that's my opinion and I'm done. I'd be curious to know how you resolved the situation though when it happens.
If you want to have a conversation, have one, but you don't want to. You are simply trying to make it obvious to her, and the police, that you are stating to keep away.
Yes, everything you've done so far you have the legal right to do, but in my own experience of living in inner city Oakland, you get WAY better results by going up to someone's door with a bottle of wine and treating them like a normal human being that just got caught up in the moment. If you don't give her a chance to act like a neighbor, you're encouraging her to be as big of a jerk as possible without breaking the law. Is that what you really want? If it comes down to it, you can always tell her off LATER, but trying the good neighbor treatment might lead to better long-term results. You WILL be running into this person periodically until one of you moves, so try to look for a solution that doesn't give your family the uh-oh feeling every time you see her.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
I fully support you Spool32, good job on getting the vacuum extension and instructing your children to avoid her yard. If you ever do get the chance to redo that back yard, it would be another good step, but you've made as many concessions for her as you need to.
The letter and the mention of your lawyers really reads like empty threats.
Often times, adults think overly complicated letters and processes like this is what "adults" are supposed to do. Honestly, why waste a bunch of emotional energy on a one time thing?
Spool, I'd just talk to her, if she freaks out about that, then do your letter. That seems to be the best course.
I mean, I'm not saying her reaction was how people should act, but I certainly understand why she acted that way. And this is what I get from hearing a story presumably biased in your favor.
Man up, go over to her house, and apologize. Explain that you didn't have anything to do with the dog shit on her lawn, that you didn't realize the dog hair was upsetting her, and that in the future, you will make a point of cleaning it up. Then apologize for being such a dick with the water restriction thing, say that you should have said something to her about it instead of calling the cops, and in the future, you will.
Follow that up by telling her that your wife doesn't handle things like that well, and ask that in the future she just call you with any problems she has, and give her your cell phone number.
You don't actually have to believe any of what you're saying, you just have to make it sound sincere. Regardless of what you do from here, I assume you're not planning on moving out of your house, so you're going to have to live next to these people for awhile; it's much better to have a good relationship with them than to have legal protections against them doing anything bad to you.
See my assumption is that spool wants the conflict to stop and so actually wanted her to read the parts I mentioned. You're advice appears geared towards baiting her into getting herself arrested. One of these things will accomplish the goal of not having spool's wife confronted with a traumatizing situation again while the other actually increases the chances of that situation occurring.
The letter should be just for proof that you have communicated your request, so I agree with others that you should shorten it.
The face-to-face with your neighbor is to talk to her and explain why this is actually happening, possibly go into more detail explaining your wife's issue and why your neighbors actions were so damaging. I think the face-to-face would make the letter not so threatening, but still get your point across.
Good luck with everything, I hope it works out and she actually doesn't bother you anymore
I took the advice to cool down a bit and revise again for less confrontation. I'm certainly not levelling empty threats here, and I don't feel like I was being a dick over the water violation.
I'll post the revised letter shortly
Paragraph 1: Acknowledge her issues, real or perceived, and explain the steps you're taking to minimize your dog's impact on her property via bagging hair, not walking him part her house.
Paragraph 2: Briefly explain your wife's condition and how it's aggravated by stress, confrontation and people at the door. Note your childrens' ages and how you are requesting her to make YOU the single point of contact for any issues that arise in the future. Any contact with family members other than yourself is forbidden.
Paragraph 3: Closing pleasantries. Bullshit about "in the interest of maintaining a pleasant neighborhood" and yadda yadda.
Don't mention the water thing (it's not relevant to your current needs), don't mention the police (that's escalating). Keep it short and to the point, avoid anything that could be construed as hyperbole or exagerration.
edit: also, pretty much exactly what the guy above me who isn't possible said.
2) She DID do something very, very wrong. She came to his house and yelled at his family, and she SHOULD apologize. When someone does something like that, you do not apologize. I wouldn't even want to send the message to her that if you're upset with my action then treating my family that way will earn you an apology. It should not earn you a bottle of wine and an attempt at pleasant conversation. That's awful.
If you go the letter route start over from scratch - yours is rude, condescending and would immediately rub anyone the wrong way.
When you initiate a conversation with respect, it opens the door to receiving respect. Treating her nicely isn't a "prize" for her being a silly goose, it's a way to show her that you are willing to do the adult thing first, even if she is not. And to be clear, the adult thing is compromise, not self-righteousness.
She did something wrong. She should apologize. Once she does those things, your life will be so much better. So put yourself in a position to make her want to apologize. Sending angry letters and calling the cops doesn't do that.
You ALWAYS have the option to take the unbending-legal route, but once you do, you will never again have the option to try and smooth things over. Maybe you're already past that point, but one honest try should be worth it.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
And really, don't bring up the water citation. Even though she was 100% (legally) in the wrong to do it, and you were 100% (legally) in the right to report it, it has no bearing on the ideal result of the letter, Gettting Her to Leave Your Family Alone. Bringing it up in any way is only going to make her angrier.
The law should be your last resort because they won't always protect you and yours. You might not have the time and money your neighbor does once the courts get involved.
Your neighbor sounds like a real piece of work and she might even be crazy. I would try to avoid having a crazy neighbor angry with me even if I did nothing wrong. If someone poisons your dog or harasses your wife you might not be able to prove it is the person you think it is and then the law won't be able to help you.
Clean up the weeds in your back yard and train your dog to poop and pee there before your walks. Dogs are very trainable and if the weeds are only in your backyard and not everywhere else your dog goes to the bathroom then they are obviously controllable too. Even if no one else is overreacting you might still being getting on their nerves, why chance it? People who don't have dogs don't always see things the way you see things.
The suggestion about getting a fence and lockable gate for your property sounds like a good way to make your wife more comfortable. It would keep this situation from reoccurring and would discourage other kinds of trouble too. A few 'beware of the dog' signs and your wife can just put the hound on anyone who wants to climb the fence. Sounds like a good return for all the dog food you are buying. Having an akita and a fence to protect me would be two visible and very real discouragements to any kind of misbehavior. (Who knows, with a doctor's note the fence might even be something you can write off on your taxes.)
If I were you then I'd worry about preventing more trouble and not who is right and who is wrong. Being right and having the law on your side ain't worth dick when you are dealing with a crazy person, I know this from hard personal experience.
We had a neighbor just like her. After you apologized for any wrongdoing (whether your fault or not) she just acted like a smug asshole that she was right and you were wrong and just complained more. Puke on the grass? Yours, clean it up bitch.
Dog hair on the lawn? Yours, clean it up bitch.
Person shit in her toilet? Yours, clean it up bitch.
It's also not a violation of the ordinance to open your window and hold a megaphone up to your ass every time you have to break wind, but I'm sure you can see how a neighbour might take issue with that kind of disturbance.
I don't like it either when someone's dog takes a shit on my lawn, even when they clean it up. It's not like he dropped his car keys and picked them up, there is still left-over fecal matter on my lawn. What about the times when your dog's movements aren't exactly solid form? Are you going to get your Dyson out and suck that up?
You have to live next to this woman. No one is saying she is a saint. No one is saying she is pleasant. No one is saying you have to become her friend. But you do have to live next to her. Would you rather live next to someone around whom you're on edge all the time, or would you rather live next to someone with whom you don't speak but know where you stand?
I agree with Esh. Talking to her before sending a letter is a good idea. Hell, you could be right, and maybe she flies off the handle again. Case closed. Send the letter. Live next to the wicked witch of the west for the rest of your (or her) time there. But maybe, just maybe, she'll see that her behaviour was unacceptable and that you won't tolerate her talking to your family that way (or at all) in the future, and you'll live civilly next door from here on out. And perhaps you might see that the old lady doesn't want crusts of your dog's giant shit and clumps of fur all over her property.
Try talking first, because if you pull out the sledgehammer to crack this walnut, you're going to have to live with the little bits of shell all over your carpet from here on out.
If I were her, I would probably be pretty upset, too. My suggestion at least has a chance of working out their differences; writing passive-aggressive letters threatening legal action isn't going to improve the living situation one iota. And if it doesn't work, he can always write a letter, later.
But hey, yeah, maybe escalating things with people you have to live next to is a better plan. Especially with a wife who has PTSD. I'm sure there's no way that can go wrong.
In six months when you're posting asking advice about the expensive, burgeoning protracted lawsuit you're having with your neighbor, you should think about the sorts of decisions you made that led you to that point.
I mean, I guess the letter takes more of an "I don't take shit from anyone" sort of a hardline stance. While that might get them to leave you alone, it's really not going to reduce your worry at all. And I would think if you wanted to really help your wife, you would more prefer to attempt to make an actual peace with your neighbor, instead of trying to hold things at a constant state of armistice.
Think of it as verbal judo. She's ready for a fight, she's not ready for you to be kind and understanding.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
I mean she's already proven herself to be such a reasonable adult, how could approaching her property or her person fail?
Neither option is great. The letter route is much safer, and I know that if I were the wife I would probably feel better about that. I'm not the wife, and you should probably talk to your wife. If you want a legal/official way of dealing with this issue, the letter is it. If you want to walk onto her property and hope for the best, there's that too.
It's important to remember that she is a person too. If she wrote in for help saying she was afraid of dogs but this man kept glaring at her and walking his scary dog by her house so she yelled at his kids, I'd advise that she was acting foolish and needed to apologize and should bring you a fruit basket. It's a trait of humanity that we want to say "I have all these special needs I didn't tell anyone about, but that stranger is an evil heartless monster!," but I promise you that it's worth it to give peace a chance. At the very least, you'll get to feel even MORE entitled when you do give her the smack down
I feel what you're saying, Ceres. I live in a bad neighborhood and I know my wife worries when I go talk to some of our neighbors. We do have neighbors that have yelled and told me not to talk to them anymore, so I don't. But it is nice that I do have a lot of polite neighbors now that used to play music late at night, just because I asked them to stop. It's way better than waiting for the cops to show up, since they usually don't.
Both suggestions (talking or a letter) are good ones, especially if done politely rather than in anger. The letter can be beneficial to her as well, to have more time to collect her thoughts as well as showing her you're open to that form of communication.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
I felt the same shivers.
I completely and totally agree with what Thanatos is suggesting and feel it is the best way to handle the situation.
Let me third that one. Something I never thought I'd do.
There's a huge difference between what you CAN do (call the cops) and what you SHOULD do (try to maintain neighborly relations before burning that bridge which is what the letter and threats of police will do).
People break the law in tiny ways EVERY DAY. All of you do it. If we all called the cops on every minor infraction we saw...I can't even imagine.
I can understand why someone would have massive problems with a dog being on their lawn in the first place. I am deathly afraid of dogs and don't want to see them when I'm walking down the street, let alone when I'm on my property. I'm not saying this woman is afraid of dogs, but there are a lot of legitimate reasons for her to be annoyed by the manner in which you assume her property is an acceptable place for your dog and your dog's remnants.
Let me re-iterate. I. Fucking. Hate. Dogs. But you guys are about a hair's breadth from calling for the defacto banning of dogs. The only thing he's done wrong with his dog is let the hair blow away. Other than that he's being a goddamn angel with his akita. Most people in every neighborhood I've lived in can't be bothered to clean up the dog poop their animal leaves behind.
I think the issue here is the perception of the gravity of the violation. I'm also in Texas, in a water-restricted area. We're having the worst drought right now we've had in over a decade. While I would say something to the person before calling the cops, ignoring the restrictions for something as trivial as not wanting to sweep a driveway is not jaywalking.