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135

Posts

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    And since those people almost certainly can't pay back even a fraction of the losses, they get imprisoned as a sort of weird symbolic gesture that doesn't really help anyone figure out a better approach to what's going on. I dunno, man.

    Most criminals rarely cannot pay back losses but imprisonment makes sense to prevent them from causing further damage and as a deterrent. Even if some of the numbers are exaggerated and even if there's a failure in some system these are not victimless crimes and should not be treated as such.

    EDIT: "can pay back" was to say "cannot" pay back

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Butters wrote: »
    Most criminals rarely can pay back losses but imprisonment makes sense to prevent them from causing further damage and as a deterrent.

    Fundamental disagreement on premise well outside the scope of this thread.

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  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Butters wrote: »
    And since those people almost certainly can't pay back even a fraction of the losses, they get imprisoned as a sort of weird symbolic gesture that doesn't really help anyone figure out a better approach to what's going on. I dunno, man.

    Most criminals rarely can pay back losses but imprisonment makes sense to prevent them from causing further damage and as a deterrent. Even if some of the numbers are exaggerated and even if there's a failure in some system these are not victimless crimes and should not be treated as such.

    While I agree that there should be a deterrent to prevent any future crimes, I know that if it was my property that was damaged and my money that they had lost, I'd want these people working and paying off their debt to me.

    Putting them in jail at the taxpayer's expense just seems like a huge waste of money.

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Butters wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    It depends on your definition of long-term imprisonment. I don't think a few months in prison is extreme in the case where you have an adult that is just trying to cause as much havoc as he can for the fun of it.

    Would you really ever read the phrase "put them away for a long time" as a few months? Honestly.

    I would consider several months in prison to be a pretty long time for a non violent crime of this sort.

    That just doesn't read to me at all, but we're likely at an impasse attempting to infer another person's meaning.

    edit: If this post were just slightly more combative, I might have pulled a Defender triple-shot there. So, uh, f u Jon.

    ANd you very well might be more accurate in your inference I don't know. I know a couple of guys that went to prison for non-violent crimes (one for insurance fraud and the other for being one of many stooges in a workman's comp scam) and although both served less than a year's time they certainly considered their respective sentences to be pretty damn long.

    League of Legends: Lamby Cakes | XBox Live: Jon Butters
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    TankHammer wrote: »
    MaximumJ wrote: »
    Just sentence them all to a year in Amish country.

    This seems like a fair sentence.

    Or maybe make them do some community service or something.

    pretty sure there's laws against cruel and unusual punishment

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  • Black_HeartBlack_Heart Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Butters wrote: »
    Obvious security holes or not these individuals have no right to engage in this activity. If one is able to drive a truck through the front door of a convenient store the blame doesn't lie with the store owner for not having concrete pillars out front.

    True.

    I'm not saying there shouldn't be retribution, its that the hard part comes from enacting it and actually finding the real people who did it so they can pay.

    If you have a store and you know full well that someone CAN drive a truck through your front door and get away scott free after doing it... wouldn't the logical solution be to have concrete pillars out front to keep said act from happening?

    XBL/PSN Name - Jashinslayer
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  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Butters wrote: »
    ANd you very well might be more accurate in your inference I don't know. I know a couple of guys that went to prison for non-violent crimes (one for insurance fraud and the other for being one of many stooges in a workman's comp scam) and although both served less than a year's time they certainly considered their respective sentences to be pretty damn long.

    Oh, I'm sure it seems long from the inside. I just don't know if that reads the same way from someone on the other side. In any case, I'm not trying to push a strictly ideological view like, "abolish capitalism and this won't have a meaningful context and will no longer be a societal issue and and and."

    But I have a problem with the sort of knee jerk, "jerks, the lot of 'em, lock 'em up and move on. Nothin' to learn here," endorsement of a problematic status quo. Especially that guy with the bad motorbike analogy that was all, "Sony was minding their own business and not bothering anyone. These assholes just came out of nowhere to be mean for no reason at all, just completely random." That's not a conversation; that's the absolute annihilation of understanding.

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  • LTMLTM Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I love that LulzSec gets all this attention for a DDoS on the CIA's webserver, meanwhile you can still buy credit cards and PINs in bulk on IRC without anyone noticing.

  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Here's what we do. We find out the folks who did this. We track em' down. We sell them Proactiv, graphic tees and sex dolls.


    Then we're rich and can stop caring.

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    Steam - Talon Valdez : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk
  • ToxTox I kill threads Pharezon's human garbage heapRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Here's what we do. We find out the folks who did this. We track em' down. We sell them Proactiv, graphic tees and sex dolls.


    Then we're rich and can stop caring.

    This guy gets it.

    Grey Ghost wrote: »
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  • jwalkjwalk Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jwalk wrote: »
    the PSN hack was in response to Sony removing Linux support. sad thing is Sony tried to reach out to the "home-brew" crowd by allowing Linux on the console in the first place, but people ended up using it for hax and pirating games, so they had to remove it. they fucked it up in other words.

    it would be like if I handed you a dirt-bike and said "now don't go tearing up other people's lawns with it" - you went out tore up people's lawns so I had to take it away, then you got all mad and starting throwing rocks thru their windows instead. HACK-TAVISTS!! FOR THE PEOPLE!

    Last I checked, the Linux homebrew wasn't nearly sophisticated enough to run modified games online. I think they had barely decrypted the disc system for playing unofficial game media. Piracy was probably the big concern there. But I think the attack was in response to that whole extended lawsuit and subpoena of personal info for folks who even visited the websites of the groups working on the work arounds.

    So the analogy doesn't really hold up.

    they hacked "other OS" to load pirated games, trainers and cheats. that's why Sony had to remove it. actually you can still use the old firmware, you just can't connect to PSN online, so pirates can still pirate their single-player games, but they can't H@x and cheat at online games (tearing up people's lawn) - so the self-entitled little bitches that they are responded by bringing down the whole network, hurting everybody (rocks thru windows) I think it's a perfect analogy actually..

    as for what else teh h@x0rz have done, well they broke into international banks and government web sites, including the FBI and CIA.. hey guess what they don't take that kinda shit lightly. I think 15-20 in federal pen is what they are facing if they are caught. is it "FAIR" - LOL... I dunno, but what do you expect?

  • LTMLTM Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Can we not mix the act of re-writing your firmware on your PS and the act of DDoSing a website?

    They are drastically different in terms of "hacking", even if one is a declared motivation for the other...

  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jwalk wrote: »
    they hacked "other OS" to load pirated games, trainers and cheats. that's why Sony had to remove it. actually you can still use the old firmware, you just can't connect to PSN online, so pirates can still pirate their single-player games, but they can't H@x and cheat at online games (tearing up people's lawn) - so the self-entitled little bitches that they are responded by bringing down the whole network, hurting everybody (rocks thru windows) I think it's a perfect analogy actually..

    Except the systems that had to be cracked to do any of the shit Sony doesn't want folks doing are still cracked, regardless of use of OtherOS. And what part of your analogy covers Sony suing and subpoenaing folks?

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I think it's all pretty clear, hacking has to be completely forbidden. Anyone who even knows about IT security is a potential hacker and thus a terrorist, another traitor-leaks or julian rapesange waiting to happen.
    I say we bomb iran, that'll teach them

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  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Cowboy Fwankenstein Livin' That DreamRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    edit: If this post were just slightly more combative, I might have pulled a Defender triple-shot there.

    Whatever happened to that guy?

    darthsig.jpg
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Rolo wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    And since those people almost certainly can't pay back even a fraction of the losses, they get imprisoned as a sort of weird symbolic gesture that doesn't really help anyone figure out a better approach to what's going on. I dunno, man.

    Most criminals rarely can pay back losses but imprisonment makes sense to prevent them from causing further damage and as a deterrent. Even if some of the numbers are exaggerated and even if there's a failure in some system these are not victimless crimes and should not be treated as such.

    While I agree that there should be a deterrent to prevent any future crimes, I know that if it was my property that was damaged and my money that they had lost, I'd want these people working and paying off their debt to me.

    Putting them in jail at the taxpayer's expense just seems like a huge waste of money.

    indentured servitude eh?

    STEAM
    Spoiler:
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    edit: If this post were just slightly more combative, I might have pulled a Defender triple-shot there.

    Whatever happened to that guy?

    ass creed 2 and assbro were good so he exploded

    STEAM
    Spoiler:
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Rolo wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    And since those people almost certainly can't pay back even a fraction of the losses, they get imprisoned as a sort of weird symbolic gesture that doesn't really help anyone figure out a better approach to what's going on. I dunno, man.

    Most criminals rarely can pay back losses but imprisonment makes sense to prevent them from causing further damage and as a deterrent. Even if some of the numbers are exaggerated and even if there's a failure in some system these are not victimless crimes and should not be treated as such.

    While I agree that there should be a deterrent to prevent any future crimes, I know that if it was my property that was damaged and my money that they had lost, I'd want these people working and paying off their debt to me.

    Putting them in jail at the taxpayer's expense just seems like a huge waste of money.

    indentured servitude eh?

    Paying the cost of your damages = slavery.

  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Cowboy Fwankenstein Livin' That DreamRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    ass creed 2 and assbro were good so he exploded

    Yeah, I can see that.

    In fact, I can see that taking over the dude's entire life.

    Hope he remembers to eat and drink water.

    darthsig.jpg
  • jwalkjwalk Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    you automatically give up your rights when you break the law, that's how society works, yes even on teh internets.

    of course the punishment should fit the crime...

    bear in mind these people have stated their mission is to "hack government computers and expose all state secrets"...

    somehow don't see them getting off light for that one, even if they "only did it for LOLZ". sorry Ferris Bueller this isn't 1983 you ain't getting a free tour of Norad, noogies from the General and Ally Sheedy in the sack for this one...

    in fact, I'm pretty sure the penalty for treason is death.

  • jwalkjwalk Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    not that anyone would want Ally Sheedy in the sack, these days.

  • ThatDudeOverThereThatDudeOverThere hasn't seen the movie just likes the titleRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    so annie basically just hates the prison system in general and his grievances here have nothing at all to do with the topic at hand

    nHu0VJL.png
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  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jwalk wrote: »
    you automatically give up your rights when you break the law, that's how society works, yes even on teh internets.

    Er, no you don't. That's not how the law works. And what does that have to do with the subpoenas?

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  • faitsfaits a panda eating cake seattleRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    we should probably go back to the time when prison was just for poor people and doing crimes was punished by having parts of you cut off.

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  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    so annie basically just hates the prison system in general and his grievances here have nothing at all to do with the topic at hand

    Completely off the mark. Try again.

    1LRdqui.png
  • tenkaristenkaris Registered User
    edited June 2011
    I love how the Escapist guy says "We're Friends!"

    reminds me of Jerry saying it during the Dark Sun game when they ran into the lizard sun cleric dudes

  • VeretasVeretas Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    edit: If this post were just slightly more combative, I might have pulled a Defender triple-shot there.

    Whatever happened to that guy?

    ass creed 2 and assbro were good so he exploded

    Ahahaha oh my god 5 stars :^:

  • jwalkjwalk Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    sorry, you give up your right to freedom is what I meant to say.
    obviously, people accused of crimes have rights, and even people convicted of crimes still have rights - just not the right to freedom.

    this stupid forum and it's busy nonense is violating my fargin rights!

  • joshua1joshua1 Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    So... whats preventing the tracking down of these people.

    I can understand that if they were using remote machines, that could be harder.

    Or bouncing their ip off of somewhere else.

    But do they actually have the resources to do that en masse like they have been doing?

    I would have to assume at least some (if not most of) these chuckleheads were doing this directly from their own machines.

  • Fantastication2Fantastication2 Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jwalk wrote: »
    sorry, you give up your right to freedom is what I meant to say.
    obviously, people accused of crimes have rights, and even people convicted of crimes still have rights - just not the right to freedom.

    this stupid forum and it's busy nonense is violating my fargin rights!

    You don't even give up all of your freedoms, you still have speech/religion/etcetcwharrgarbl.

    If you are convicted of a crime, you lose a tiny portion of your freedoms, generally the freedom to move about.

  • jwalkjwalk Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    joshua1 wrote: »
    So... whats preventing the tracking down of these people.

    I can understand that if they were using remote machines, that could be harder.

    Or bouncing their ip off of somewhere else.

    But do they actually have the resources to do that en masse like they have been doing?

    I would have to assume at least some (if not most of) these chuckleheads were doing this directly from their own machines.

    oh noooo... they are l33t hax0rz who can never be caught..

    except they caught some already, in Spain and Turkey (I hear Turkish prisons are nice this time of year too..)

    also the DDOS attacks almost always use virus/worms installed on people's machines they don't even know about. they are only guilty of not using a good virus scanner... zombies, they're called.

    and even if you tracked them all down and forced them to wipe their computers they would be replaced in a week by 50 zillion more idiots because there is still a butt ton of people out there using windows XP or older that do not use good protection.

    and, are dumb.

    that's not to say windows vista/7 is perfectly secure either..

  • joshua1joshua1 Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    ah yes. Zombie machienes. I did forget.

  • AMP'dAMP'd Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    how many of these guys are going to get recruited into computer security, catch me if you can-style

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Cowboy Fwankenstein Livin' That DreamRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I'm wondering if it would be cruel and unusual punishment to require community service hours as part of the sentencing, specifically, teaching computer science in public schools.

    To first graders.

    On dial-up.

    darthsig.jpg
  • KazakaKazaka Registered User
    edited June 2011
    I want to find these guys

    and then I want to beat them

    ... They ate, slept and worked. Some of them found uninteresting partners at work who they married and came home to. Sometimes they would half-heartededly thrust into each other and children were made. They lived a middle class existence until their deaths to heart disease and cancer.
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Sony deserved anything and everything bad that ever happened to them. Their customers did not. The only thing their customers deserve is a mild berating for buying a Sony product despite decades of Sony acting as they have.

    Regardless, I find Anon to be almost sympathetic. Their ends do not justify their means, but at least they have understandable motivations most of the time.

    Whereas Lolzsec is the internet equivalent of the miscreants who egged my car a few weeks ago; performing random acts of destruction because, and only because, they can. People like that should be forced to move to an island where transistors are illegal.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    AMP'd wrote: »
    how many of these guys are going to get recruited into computer security, catch me if you can-style

    Not many. Basically there's a few actual hackers in the group who do all of the hard work of figuring out the holes to hack. Once they do they spread the info to the rest of the group who then jumps on it and tries to get as much data from the servers as they can before they're caught. And generally the ones who are caught are those low level script kiddies while the black hats running things have cleaned up their tracks enough to not be in danger of any fallout.

  • bawkbawkboo1bawkbawkboo1 Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    jwalk wrote: »
    jwalk wrote: »
    the PSN hack was in response to Sony removing Linux support. sad thing is Sony tried to reach out to the "home-brew" crowd by allowing Linux on the console in the first place, but people ended up using it for hax and pirating games, so they had to remove it. they fucked it up in other words.

    it would be like if I handed you a dirt-bike and said "now don't go tearing up other people's lawns with it" - you went out tore up people's lawns so I had to take it away, then you got all mad and starting throwing rocks thru their windows instead. HACK-TAVISTS!! FOR THE PEOPLE!

    Last I checked, the Linux homebrew wasn't nearly sophisticated enough to run modified games online. I think they had barely decrypted the disc system for playing unofficial game media. Piracy was probably the big concern there. But I think the attack was in response to that whole extended lawsuit and subpoena of personal info for folks who even visited the websites of the groups working on the work arounds.

    So the analogy doesn't really hold up.

    they hacked "other OS" to load pirated games, trainers and cheats. that's why Sony had to remove it. actually you can still use the old firmware, you just can't connect to PSN online, so pirates can still pirate their single-player games, but they can't H@x and cheat at online games (tearing up people's lawn) - so the self-entitled little bitches that they are responded by bringing down the whole network, hurting everybody (rocks thru windows) I think it's a perfect analogy actually..

    as for what else teh h@x0rz have done, well they broke into international banks and government web sites, including the FBI and CIA.. hey guess what they don't take that kinda shit lightly. I think 15-20 in federal pen is what they are facing if they are caught. is it "FAIR" - LOL... I dunno, but what do you expect?

    I think your are either trolling or are completely ignorant about the PSN situation- The hacking of Sony's own PS3 system software, which can run actual PS3 games, didn't really take off (get to a point where it's usable in a practical sense w/o hardware hacks) until significantly after the Linux removal. Linux on PS3 was and still is quite limited in how it can be used, not due to Sony restrictions, but because coding for the SPEs is difficult. I've never heard of an actual PS3 game working on a PS3 under Linux- there just no compatibility layer that can be put in without absolutely destroying performance, not to mention reducing the already limited RAM amount (Sony's OS is more RAM efficient for that architecture than Linux). People that are hacking PS3 games are more than likely doing it through the normal PS3 system software + hardware hacks.

    And no, taking away functionality of a device for which the consumer has paid is not something Sony should be able to do without serious legal ramifications- this isn't like a closed-from-the-start box like the Wii or X360 or whatever, they specifically sold this hardware to the Linux community. With those closed devices, people knew what they were buying. Also, because you can't (legitimately) go back to an old PS3 firmware version, all new PS3s are non-linux compatible no matter what, and the number of old ones that are compatible decreases with each update of older consoles.

    Additionally, I haven't seen any indication that the PSN hack had much to do with the Linux compatibility removal in a direct sense- just because some random group claims something for notoriety doesn't prove much.

    Also, law doesn't work he way you think it works.

  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Are these guys (and Anonymous) actually this good at what they do? Or are they just crazy assholes with SQL certificationss and way too much time on their hands? The corporate targets are really this soft?

  • TankHammerTankHammer Extreme Ghostbuster Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Are these guys (and Anonymous) actually this good at what they do? Or are they just crazy assholes with SQL certificationss and way too much time on their hands? The corporate targets are really this soft?

    It's mostly to do with their numbers than their raw abilities. Having a loose leadership that can say "Okay, we're hitting X website and Y time on Z date next, get to it" and the majority of them just following instructions is a shockingly-effective, blunt instrument.

    The only way to protect against the DDOS attacks would be to learn of the attack and take the servers offline preemptively or to pay for a lot of network redundancy to handle an unreasonable server load, something which isn't exactly cost-effective to do.

    You can beef up security to protect yourself from being infiltrated and having information stolen, but nothing is going to stop thousands of computers simultaneously bombarding a server with a brute-force attack.

    'Least that's how I understand it.

    4icmw.jpg TankHammer | 2zivq6q.jpg
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