how far did he get? i imagine you can only do that strategy so many times before people wise up to your shit and stop hitting buttons at the beginning
He got to the top 32.
And its not a gimmick. Be chooses to use his xfactor early and it pays off usually. Even well after it runs out he still destroys a Wolverine with phoenix.
Its a totally legit strategy to do something that will surprise your opponent and catch them off guard, and he clearly has the skills to back it up. Its kind of insulting when someone does something unique and very, very skillfully and it gets shrugged off as a gimmick.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
how far did he get? i imagine you can only do that strategy so many times before people wise up to your shit and stop hitting buttons at the beginning
He got to the top 32.
And its not a gimmick. Be chooses to use his xfactor early and it pays off usually. Even well after it runs out he still destroys a Wolverine with phoenix.
Its a totally legit strategy to do something that will surprise your opponent and catch them off guard, and he clearly has the skills to back it up. Its kind of insulting when someone does something unique and very, very skillfully and it gets shrugged off as a gimmick.
The pretending his buttons are wrong and acting like he did it on accident pretty clearly enforces that it is a gimmick.
Even besides the opening gambit, he still exhibited some pretty nice tricks, like teleporting immediately when he whiffed a dive kick and immediately dive-kicking again.
I think he's just too reckless with his resources to get far playing a Phoenix team.
Soul Silver FC: 1978 3200 2285
GT: HitoriLionheart or dailydro
Still, it was a hell of an idea. Knowing she has that wall bounce from the super and baiting out the assist is smart. On the other hand, if they don't call out their assist they have to fight Phoenix without an assist. It's original and dangerous, albeit in more than one way.
It's the exact kind of thinking most people poo poo because they just want to make use of tiering and can't explore ideas that aren't endorsed by pro players. I know the idea of Phoenix on point is a running gag on these forums. :P
how far did he get? i imagine you can only do that strategy so many times before people wise up to your shit and stop hitting buttons at the beginning
He got to the top 32.
And its not a gimmick. Be chooses to use his xfactor early and it pays off usually. Even well after it runs out he still destroys a Wolverine with phoenix.
Its a totally legit strategy to do something that will surprise your opponent and catch them off guard, and he clearly has the skills to back it up. Its kind of insulting when someone does something unique and very, very skillfully and it gets shrugged off as a gimmick.
It's a gimmick. The difference between a gimmick and a good strategy, is that a good strategy works even if your opponent has seen it before.
Here's a vid of one of the Seattle guys (MKP Conway) vs Tokido @ Evo, I forget if this was Winner's or Loser's.
Awesome. Tokido totally threw that first match with that BS waste of meter to get DP to pop out, though. What was he trying to do there?
***
GG's, Ranced, was fun stuff. you and Sol have excellent connections with me (well, his is better, but still). Obviously, it's not offline quality, but it's good to play Marvel like that.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited August 2011
So did those videos display "high level" Phoenix play? Because if that's supposed to be high level stuff, then it's the same thing I've always seen. Whoever has their Dark Phoenix comes out last, wins. When they have their Phoenix die before transforming, they lose. She spams fireballs and teleport. Nothing spectacular about it.
As for that thing where he's popping XF early, I could see that being valuable if you catch the opponent plus their assist in a combo. Obviously, being able to take somebody down 2 characters less than ten seconds into the match tilts things pretty heavily in your favor. Otherwise, you're just throwing away your X-factor because XF1 is too short and has too little benefit. 2v3 isn't really that lopsided, especially if somebody uses an XF powerhouse but gets them killed before they can perform, so using it to kill one enemy out of three is pretty wasteful.
Also, it didn't really work. And if somebody just blocks at the start instead of rushing, then the guy has really wasted his XF.
EDIT: I'm not being sarcastic about the Phoenix thing, I really am asking if this is the kind of high-level Phoenix play suggested earlier.
So did those videos display "high level" Phoenix play? Because if that's supposed to be high level stuff, then it's the same thing I've always seen. Whoever has their Dark Phoenix comes out last, wins. When they have their Phoenix die before transforming, they lose. She spams fireballs and teleport. Nothing spectacular about it.
As for that thing where he's popping XF early, I could see that being valuable if you catch the opponent plus their assist in a combo. Obviously, being able to take somebody down 2 characters less than ten seconds into the match tilts things pretty heavily in your favor. Otherwise, you're just throwing away your X-factor because XF1 is too short and has too little benefit. 2v3 isn't really that lopsided, especially if somebody uses an XF powerhouse but gets them killed before they can perform, so using it to kill one enemy out of three is pretty wasteful.
Also, it didn't really work. And if somebody just blocks at the start instead of rushing, then the guy has really wasted his XF.
EDIT: I'm not being sarcastic about the Phoenix thing, I really am asking if this is the kind of high-level Phoenix play suggested earlier.
I wouldn't consider it very high-level, he does ok with normal Phoenix but it's extremely high risk and I really don't think it's something that would do well once people know you do it at all. It's like Fuerte's that use splash all the time in SF4, yeah it will work on some people but anyone who has seen it before won't even be phased by it.
So even though he won, handily, it didn't work because he should have saved his xfactor until the end because that's "how you're supposed to play". And its never a good strategy to do something risky even if it is a huge success and clearly exploits a weakness because good strategys work all the time no matter what (which to me if it works all the time its truely a "gimmick" because it's clearly a glitch).
And I thought he got to the top 32 because that was the description in the video I saw. My mistake.
Can't wait until this game ends up like MvC2 with the same 3 characters over and over and over so that way everyone will be playing it right.
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
Can't wait until this game ends up like MvC2 with the same 3 characters over and over and over so that way everyone will be playing it right.
Wolverine/Wesker/Phoenix?
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited August 2011
Air superiority doesn't help win wars because it's the traditional "right way", it helps win wars because it provides extreme tactical and strategic advantages. You don't drive your aircraft around on the ground and try to use them like tanks because it's not a good way to use them. It's basic common sense.
Popping your XF early when it does the least damage and lasts the shortest time is almost always a poor choice; as a standard tactic, it's definitely a poor choice. If you do it towards the start of a combo, you'll kill maybe one character and have a chance to do a little damage to a second. If you wait for XF2/XF3, XF lasts long enough to wipe an entire team. It's about the same as building up 5 bars of super, then using it all to chip the first of three enemies to death. Yeah, you can certainly do it if you want, but it's a huge, huge waste. Popping XF early isn't some game-changing tactic, it's just a one-off to maybe kill a character. And for a lot of matches, it won't even contribute because an enemy can easily outlast XF1 by just evading you. Even if somebody can't evade for that long, XF1 doesn't add enough to chip damage or speed to do much better in terms of crossing up the opponent or doing a lot of damage with spam.
As far as MvC3 coming down to there only be 3-4 "correct" characters to play, I'm not worried about that at all. For one, we won't even have MvC3 for much longer. Two, so many characters are broken in some way that it means a much larger selection of characters are viable. Hell, I've got three teams which use 8 different characters among them and I'd consider one of them great, the other as having the potential to be great, and the third as experimental but showing huge promise. Only one uses Taskmaster and Wolverine and another uses Spencer. The only character I would argue as completely broken would be Dark Phoenix; otherwise, MvC3 has a much more closely-matched cast than the last game.
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Dr Mario KartGames DealerAustin, TXRegistered Userregular
Things are never so black and white as that. I played a dude who started Ammy and he would win with basically full health on 3 characters every time. However, if I managed to kill Ammy, his other two dudes werent really a problem, x-factor or not. Therefore, If I happen to get a hit early, I'm going to x-factor and kill his best character rather than give him a chance to blow me up afterwards.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Which is fine as an explanation of using XF early. Yes, in limited cases, it can be a good idea. Getting a two-for-one or breaking an opponent's heavy hitter are the main options. But doing it early just as a general strategy? There's just no real upside to it unless you can burn through opponents really really really fast and, in a high-level setting, that's just not likely to happen often. In most cases, it just means a complete waste of XF as a valuable tool.
Popping your XF early when it does the least damage and lasts the shortest time is almost always a poor choice; as a standard tactic, it's definitely a poor choice.
So not only have you not watched high-level Phoenix, you don't seem to be familiar with high-level Wolverine either.
EDIT: This post sounds more condescending than I intended it to be...
So not only have you not watched high-level Phoenix, you don't seem to be familiar with high-level Wolverine either.
EDIT: This post sounds more condescending than I intended it to be...
Well that's because Sniktbub can use XFC to kill someone fast enough to get a XF-boosted mixup on the next guy, which can also kill (or at least do a ton of damage).
The point of XF is to use it when the opportunity arises to do a fuck-load of damage to the other guy's team. Whether it's level 1 or 3 matters less than how much damage it allows you to do.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited August 2011
So a simple question then. How many tournaments are won by people using XF1 Wolverine and/or high-level regular Phoenix play? I mean that as a serious question. If all that counts is what is in tournaments, then why do we constantly see people winning who a) hold off on using XF onto they've lost 1 or 2 characters or b) use Phoenix to get to XF3 Dark Phoenix? Because I've heard lots of griping about lots of Dark Phoenix play in tournaments, but never anything about how well somebody used regular Phoenix.
So a simple question then. How many tournaments are won by people using XF1 Wolverine and/or high-level regular Phoenix play? I mean that as a serious question. If all that counts is what is in tournaments, then why do we constantly see people winning who a) hold off on using XF onto they've lost 1 or 2 characters or b) use Phoenix to get to XF3 Dark Phoenix? Because I've heard lots of griping about lots of Dark Phoenix play in tournaments, but never anything about how well somebody used regular Phoenix.
X-factor level 1 Wolverine is a huge thing in high-level MvC3 play right now. He can start a combo, then XFC in the middle of it and kill a character in time to mixup the next character with x-factor and probably kill them too. This is a strategy that wins tournaments.
Regular Phoenix isn't something you see too often, though, for obvious reasons. Phoenix is not on your team to be regular Phoenix and using her as such is squandering the massively game changing potential of Dark Phoenix given that both can die incredibly fast, but one is way more broken than the other.
Starting Phoenix on point is pretty gimmicky for the sole reason she's the only character many can easily kill completely meterless even without assist help and because Dark Phoenix is easily the strongest character in the game. Risk vs reward is the thing, but here the risk is losing the most powerful character in the game and arguably the most powerful comeback mechanic ever seen in a fighter vs killing 1 to 2 characters. When you hit a pair at once it paid off, but any other time it was simply not worth it. Further, the reason it's a gimmick is because it would never pay dividends against anyone who was aware of what you're doing. The fact it worked for him against some dude doesn't prove its value as a tournament level strategy - even bad strategies can succeed at times, but that doesn't change the fact it was a bad strategy.
When I say this it's not to discourage thinking outside the box, though. But just realize the point of thinking outside the box is to find new, still useful strategies, and not simply come up with one that's different for the sake of being different. If someone wants to use Phoenix on point that badly, the more power to them, but I maintain it'll only ever be all that viable if there's some awesome technique or other interaction found between her and some assist(s) to make it valuable to do so. And it'd have to be a hell of a trick, since again, using it threatens the use of Dark Phoenix.
In the Grand Finals of CEO 2011, both Tokido and Justin Wong made liberal use of XF1 Wolverine to score kills and mixup the incoming guy. Interestingly enough, those sets were not only tightly contested, but ultimately decided by whose Wolverine did the most work, and less by Tokido's Phoenix vs. Wong's anti-Phoenix tech.
Most XF1 Wolverine is done like so:
- ground or air throw other guy
- OTG with slide
- X-Factor, continue combo to kill
- mixup the incoming character with assist/zerker slash
Obviously, the first two parts can be omitted. The entire point is to only do this if you think you can do enough damage to the other team to justify burning X-Factor early; plenty of matches from EVO top 8 were decided by extremely ill-advised X-Factor usage, but plenty were also decided by burning it early to kill 2 guys (not necessarily at the same time) in 10 seconds or less.
This works best against non-Phoenix teams because you generally don't need X-Factor to help you mixup Phoenix after snapping her in, and she has so little health that you don't need it to kill her once you do land a hit. Also, DP.
But then again, in the EVO Grand Finals, PR Rog twice got away with Level 3s that killed Phoenix after he'd run out of XF (personally, I think the Wolvie Level 3 he landed was a set-up, and the Tron Level 3 was the Hail Mary). So if you're good/psychic/lucky you don't need X-Factor to help control Jean.
Soul Silver FC: 1978 3200 2285
GT: HitoriLionheart or dailydro
Course, X-Factor 1'd Wolverine is gonna be a non-issue in UMvC3 since Level 1 X-Factor isn't going to be doing really anything except act as a cancel and health regenerator (and hooray for that).
A better example of not needing x-factor to handle Phoenix is Combofiend vs Viscant in WNF grand finals what... months ago? Actually, there were a few good methods for dealing with her in there, x-factor use and not.
Also, I see a lot of people faulting the strategy for things it wasn't about. Yes, the guy was throwing out her level one at the start of the match. He could have waited to actually see an assist before he hit, make sure he had priority and such. Also, he blew x-factor when he had two characters and could kill two characters. Both are legitimate strategy's that have their strong points. the strong points being it's a good way to win a match quickly.
Does anyone here know just how much priority/invincibility her super has? I'm still amazed someone not only thought of starting her on point, but thought of a genuine game-winning reason to try it. Even better on teams that run wolverine second, as you're not just putting yourself ahead but killing their strongest character... barring a Phoenix anchor. Although good luck getting to five bars with two characters dead almost instantly.
Nah, it's pretty easy to fault the strategy regardless. Of the three games, two of them were started immediately by him throwing out Phoenix's lvl 1. The first he got blown up because it didn't work, the second he caught the guy for mashing an assist at the start of the match but even then for whatever reason decided to call Phoenix back in after Magneto did his job and COULD have paid for it (she gets nicked by a low L from Zero but he doesn't follow it up fast enough). The second round he caught two assists but not because of his gimmick specifically, he just did a dive kick and happened to get them both.
Though if you must know, Phoenix Rage has 14 frames of invincibility, which is a decent bit. That said, it has terrible recovery so as far as his strategy goes he's going to have to xfactor whether it hits or not because Phoenix is going to be very vulnerable if it's blocked and he has no other meter to DHC her out with, obviously. But it's also very dangerous if he doesn't use the hyper right away, because he will have backed Phoenix into a corner while letting the opponent get free time to advance on her before the round has actually started. Once the opponent knows your intentions, he's not going to call an assist right away either, so you're blowing your initial meter and xfactor to kill their point character at best (and still blowing both to save Phoenix, at worst). Against an opponent in the know, it's a very high risk strategy with relatively low reward (1 character killed, and the meter used could still be significant when we're talking about a Phoenix team). I mean, you could probably get it to work in online ranked matches sometimes if you really wanted, where you don't have to rematch players further. But in an actual tournament setting, it's a pointless strategy.
In the Grand Finals of CEO 2011, both Tokido and Justin Wong made liberal use of XF1 Wolverine to score kills and mixup the incoming guy. Interestingly enough, those sets were not only tightly contested, but ultimately decided by whose Wolverine did the most work, and less by Tokido's Phoenix vs. Wong's anti-Phoenix tech.
Whichever Wolverine lands the first combo wins every time barring maybe one round. Things haven't changed much, if at all, since CEO.
So did those videos display "high level" Phoenix play? Because if that's supposed to be high level stuff, then it's the same thing I've always seen. Whoever has their Dark Phoenix comes out last, wins. When they have their Phoenix die before transforming, they lose. She spams fireballs and teleport. Nothing spectacular about it.
You can always watch this. Not sure what you're looking for exactly but this should qualify. Match videos with Viscant, Clockwork, arguably(?) PChamp, and a few other known guys wouldn't be a bad place to start either.
Starting Phoenix on point is pretty gimmicky for the sole reason she's the only character many can easily kill completely meterless even without assist help and because Dark Phoenix is easily the strongest character in the game. Risk vs reward is the thing, but here the risk is losing the most powerful character in the game and arguably the most powerful comeback mechanic ever seen in a fighter vs killing 1 to 2 characters. When you hit a pair at once it paid off, but any other time it was simply not worth it. Further, the reason it's a gimmick is because it would never pay dividends against anyone who was aware of what you're doing. The fact it worked for him against some dude doesn't prove its value as a tournament level strategy - even bad strategies can succeed at times, but that doesn't change the fact it was a bad strategy.
When I say this it's not to discourage thinking outside the box, though. But just realize the point of thinking outside the box is to find new, still useful strategies, and not simply come up with one that's different for the sake of being different. If someone wants to use Phoenix on point that badly, the more power to them, but I maintain it'll only ever be all that viable if there's some awesome technique or other interaction found between her and some assist(s) to make it valuable to do so. And it'd have to be a hell of a trick, since again, using it threatens the use of Dark Phoenix.
Not sure what to do with this. It actually looks like a serious contemplation and rebuttal. I'm... sorry... it's been so long. Give me time.
Not sure what to do with this. It actually looks like a serious contemplation and rebuttal. I'm... sorry... it's been so long. Give me time.
I'm more pained at the fact that he had to type it out. It's kind of obvious.
Anyways..two things.
**
RoyallyFlushed..there was a dude at Evo named RoyalFlush I think? Amusingly, my friend was pissed at this guy because he didn't let my buddy test out stuff on Ultimate MvC, he just played for real.
Second....any of you have the PS3 version of this? My used copy should be getting it here this week .
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PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited August 2011
Yeah, I think we're miscommunicating here. What I'm arguing about is just the idea of hitting XF1 way in early in the match just to do it. Like I said, it makes sense to do it if it can be used to take out a problem character or it can be used on a character that can deal a lot of damage quickly. When people were saying "XF1 Wolverine", I thought they were meaning stuff like just straight-up popping XF1 at the start of the match (which I was saying was a bad idea), not using it as a combo reset when the opportunity comes up early on. And I actually did explicitly state that it makes sense to use XF early when a good chance comes up for major damage, so I'm not seeing what the argument is even about now because I was pointing out the common-sense stuff we already see.
RoyallyFlushed..there was a dude at Evo named RoyalFlush I think? Amusingly, my friend was pissed at this guy because he didn't let my buddy test out stuff on Ultimate MvC, he just played for real.
Second....any of you have the PS3 version of this? My used copy should be getting it here this week .
Yeah, I've been told there was a "RoyalFlush" sometime or another in IRC. Can't say I've ever met him or even as much as seen him play on a stream or anything. Just happened to be the case that this is what came to my mind when finally making my PA account (after lurking as a guest for quite some time).
And yeah, I'm totally on PS3 and totally playing this again (as noted sometime before, PSN = GreatSlinky). Though the players I've fought so far since picking it up again have been surprisingly...bad, overall. I figured it had been so long that most of the noobs would be gone by now. Not that I think I'm spectacular or anything, but I'm talking the kind of people who always pick Ryu and/or Akuma for the random "I'M FIRIN MAH LAZER!!1!" hypers, on mere hopes and dreams of doing damage.
RoyallyFlushed..there was a dude at Evo named RoyalFlush I think? Amusingly, my friend was pissed at this guy because he didn't let my buddy test out stuff on Ultimate MvC, he just played for real.
Yeah, I've been told there was a "RoyalFlush" sometime or another in IRC. Can't say I've ever met him or even as much as seen him play on a stream or anything. Just happened to be the case that this is what came to my mind when finally making my PA account (after lurking as a guest for quite some time).
Ha, no. I missed most of Noah's matches, didn't realize he had played RoyalFlush. If there has to be potential confusion about me and some other player at least it's a dude who isn't afraid to rock an underdog team, though.
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He got to the top 32.
And its not a gimmick. Be chooses to use his xfactor early and it pays off usually. Even well after it runs out he still destroys a Wolverine with phoenix.
Its a totally legit strategy to do something that will surprise your opponent and catch them off guard, and he clearly has the skills to back it up. Its kind of insulting when someone does something unique and very, very skillfully and it gets shrugged off as a gimmick.
Until it stops working, then its a gimmick.
like if you try and mash something out you fail, it was a mistake. if you mash something out and it works, it was a brilliant read and reaction.
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The pretending his buttons are wrong and acting like he did it on accident pretty clearly enforces that it is a gimmick.
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I think he's just too reckless with his resources to get far playing a Phoenix team.
GT: HitoriLionheart or dailydro
Still, it was a hell of an idea. Knowing she has that wall bounce from the super and baiting out the assist is smart. On the other hand, if they don't call out their assist they have to fight Phoenix without an assist. It's original and dangerous, albeit in more than one way.
It's the exact kind of thinking most people poo poo because they just want to make use of tiering and can't explore ideas that aren't endorsed by pro players. I know the idea of Phoenix on point is a running gag on these forums. :P
It's a gimmick. The difference between a gimmick and a good strategy, is that a good strategy works even if your opponent has seen it before.
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Awesome. Tokido totally threw that first match with that BS waste of meter to get DP to pop out, though. What was he trying to do there?
***
GG's, Ranced, was fun stuff. you and Sol have excellent connections with me (well, his is better, but still). Obviously, it's not offline quality, but it's good to play Marvel like that.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
As for that thing where he's popping XF early, I could see that being valuable if you catch the opponent plus their assist in a combo. Obviously, being able to take somebody down 2 characters less than ten seconds into the match tilts things pretty heavily in your favor. Otherwise, you're just throwing away your X-factor because XF1 is too short and has too little benefit. 2v3 isn't really that lopsided, especially if somebody uses an XF powerhouse but gets them killed before they can perform, so using it to kill one enemy out of three is pretty wasteful.
Also, it didn't really work. And if somebody just blocks at the start instead of rushing, then the guy has really wasted his XF.
EDIT: I'm not being sarcastic about the Phoenix thing, I really am asking if this is the kind of high-level Phoenix play suggested earlier.
I wouldn't consider it very high-level, he does ok with normal Phoenix but it's extremely high risk and I really don't think it's something that would do well once people know you do it at all. It's like Fuerte's that use splash all the time in SF4, yeah it will work on some people but anyone who has seen it before won't even be phased by it.
And I thought he got to the top 32 because that was the description in the video I saw. My mistake.
Can't wait until this game ends up like MvC2 with the same 3 characters over and over and over so that way everyone will be playing it right.
Wolverine/Wesker/Phoenix?
3DS FC: 2148-8300-8608 WiiU: AgahnimD
Popping your XF early when it does the least damage and lasts the shortest time is almost always a poor choice; as a standard tactic, it's definitely a poor choice. If you do it towards the start of a combo, you'll kill maybe one character and have a chance to do a little damage to a second. If you wait for XF2/XF3, XF lasts long enough to wipe an entire team. It's about the same as building up 5 bars of super, then using it all to chip the first of three enemies to death. Yeah, you can certainly do it if you want, but it's a huge, huge waste. Popping XF early isn't some game-changing tactic, it's just a one-off to maybe kill a character. And for a lot of matches, it won't even contribute because an enemy can easily outlast XF1 by just evading you. Even if somebody can't evade for that long, XF1 doesn't add enough to chip damage or speed to do much better in terms of crossing up the opponent or doing a lot of damage with spam.
As far as MvC3 coming down to there only be 3-4 "correct" characters to play, I'm not worried about that at all. For one, we won't even have MvC3 for much longer. Two, so many characters are broken in some way that it means a much larger selection of characters are viable. Hell, I've got three teams which use 8 different characters among them and I'd consider one of them great, the other as having the potential to be great, and the third as experimental but showing huge promise. Only one uses Taskmaster and Wolverine and another uses Spencer. The only character I would argue as completely broken would be Dark Phoenix; otherwise, MvC3 has a much more closely-matched cast than the last game.
These things have their situational uses.
EDIT: This post sounds more condescending than I intended it to be...
Well that's because Sniktbub can use XFC to kill someone fast enough to get a XF-boosted mixup on the next guy, which can also kill (or at least do a ton of damage).
The point of XF is to use it when the opportunity arises to do a fuck-load of damage to the other guy's team. Whether it's level 1 or 3 matters less than how much damage it allows you to do.
GT: HitoriLionheart or dailydro
X-factor level 1 Wolverine is a huge thing in high-level MvC3 play right now. He can start a combo, then XFC in the middle of it and kill a character in time to mixup the next character with x-factor and probably kill them too. This is a strategy that wins tournaments.
Regular Phoenix isn't something you see too often, though, for obvious reasons. Phoenix is not on your team to be regular Phoenix and using her as such is squandering the massively game changing potential of Dark Phoenix given that both can die incredibly fast, but one is way more broken than the other.
When I say this it's not to discourage thinking outside the box, though. But just realize the point of thinking outside the box is to find new, still useful strategies, and not simply come up with one that's different for the sake of being different. If someone wants to use Phoenix on point that badly, the more power to them, but I maintain it'll only ever be all that viable if there's some awesome technique or other interaction found between her and some assist(s) to make it valuable to do so. And it'd have to be a hell of a trick, since again, using it threatens the use of Dark Phoenix.
Most XF1 Wolverine is done like so:
- ground or air throw other guy
- OTG with slide
- X-Factor, continue combo to kill
- mixup the incoming character with assist/zerker slash
Obviously, the first two parts can be omitted. The entire point is to only do this if you think you can do enough damage to the other team to justify burning X-Factor early; plenty of matches from EVO top 8 were decided by extremely ill-advised X-Factor usage, but plenty were also decided by burning it early to kill 2 guys (not necessarily at the same time) in 10 seconds or less.
This works best against non-Phoenix teams because you generally don't need X-Factor to help you mixup Phoenix after snapping her in, and she has so little health that you don't need it to kill her once you do land a hit. Also, DP.
But then again, in the EVO Grand Finals, PR Rog twice got away with Level 3s that killed Phoenix after he'd run out of XF (personally, I think the Wolvie Level 3 he landed was a set-up, and the Tron Level 3 was the Hail Mary). So if you're good/psychic/lucky you don't need X-Factor to help control Jean.
GT: HitoriLionheart or dailydro
Enjoy!
Also, I see a lot of people faulting the strategy for things it wasn't about. Yes, the guy was throwing out her level one at the start of the match. He could have waited to actually see an assist before he hit, make sure he had priority and such. Also, he blew x-factor when he had two characters and could kill two characters. Both are legitimate strategy's that have their strong points. the strong points being it's a good way to win a match quickly.
Does anyone here know just how much priority/invincibility her super has? I'm still amazed someone not only thought of starting her on point, but thought of a genuine game-winning reason to try it. Even better on teams that run wolverine second, as you're not just putting yourself ahead but killing their strongest character... barring a Phoenix anchor. Although good luck getting to five bars with two characters dead almost instantly.
Though if you must know, Phoenix Rage has 14 frames of invincibility, which is a decent bit. That said, it has terrible recovery so as far as his strategy goes he's going to have to xfactor whether it hits or not because Phoenix is going to be very vulnerable if it's blocked and he has no other meter to DHC her out with, obviously. But it's also very dangerous if he doesn't use the hyper right away, because he will have backed Phoenix into a corner while letting the opponent get free time to advance on her before the round has actually started. Once the opponent knows your intentions, he's not going to call an assist right away either, so you're blowing your initial meter and xfactor to kill their point character at best (and still blowing both to save Phoenix, at worst). Against an opponent in the know, it's a very high risk strategy with relatively low reward (1 character killed, and the meter used could still be significant when we're talking about a Phoenix team). I mean, you could probably get it to work in online ranked matches sometimes if you really wanted, where you don't have to rematch players further. But in an actual tournament setting, it's a pointless strategy.
Whichever Wolverine lands the first combo wins every time barring maybe one round. Things haven't changed much, if at all, since CEO.
You can always watch this. Not sure what you're looking for exactly but this should qualify. Match videos with Viscant, Clockwork, arguably(?) PChamp, and a few other known guys wouldn't be a bad place to start either.
Not sure what to do with this. It actually looks like a serious contemplation and rebuttal. I'm... sorry... it's been so long. Give me time.
I'm more pained at the fact that he had to type it out. It's kind of obvious.
Anyways..two things.
**
RoyallyFlushed..there was a dude at Evo named RoyalFlush I think? Amusingly, my friend was pissed at this guy because he didn't let my buddy test out stuff on Ultimate MvC, he just played for real.
Second....any of you have the PS3 version of this? My used copy should be getting it here this week
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
YES, thank you!
Yeah, I've been told there was a "RoyalFlush" sometime or another in IRC. Can't say I've ever met him or even as much as seen him play on a stream or anything. Just happened to be the case that this is what came to my mind when finally making my PA account (after lurking as a guest for quite some time).
And yeah, I'm totally on PS3 and totally playing this again (as noted sometime before, PSN = GreatSlinky). Though the players I've fought so far since picking it up again have been surprisingly...bad, overall. I figured it had been so long that most of the noobs would be gone by now. Not that I think I'm spectacular or anything, but I'm talking the kind of people who always pick Ryu and/or Akuma for the random "I'M FIRIN MAH LAZER!!1!" hypers, on mere hopes and dreams of doing damage.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
TWITTER TWATS
I guess I shouldn't be surprised he picked another big green monster.
GT: HitoriLionheart or dailydro
Ha, no. I missed most of Noah's matches, didn't realize he had played RoyalFlush. If there has to be potential confusion about me and some other player at least it's a dude who isn't afraid to rock an underdog team, though.
Edit: Damn you for linking Noah vids, now i have to watch them again.