Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!
Is PAX getting too big?
pillarofdawn
Registered User
Registered User
This was my third year at PAX and I had noticed that this year felt the most crowded than any year before(because it was 
). I realize that PAX is there for all in the gaming community to enjoy, but does anyone else out there feel as though it is hard to enjoy when you feel like a sardine in a can? I applaud the Penny Arcade staff for bringing us PAX and for trying to bring it to everyone. However the WSCTC only has so much room 
Am I alone in wanting either more room or a capped number of attendees? What solutions do you think there to help this?
Disclaimer: I realize this is an issue that PA has most likely struggled with and tried to remedy. I am not criticizing them in the least. <3
). I realize that PAX is there for all in the gaming community to enjoy, but does anyone else out there feel as though it is hard to enjoy when you feel like a sardine in a can? I applaud the Penny Arcade staff for bringing us PAX and for trying to bring it to everyone. However the WSCTC only has so much room Am I alone in wanting either more room or a capped number of attendees? What solutions do you think there to help this?Disclaimer: I realize this is an issue that PA has most likely struggled with and tried to remedy. I am not criticizing them in the least. <3
I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread on the forums.
Posts
As for more room, it gets tricky at this point. You've already basically got the entire convention center, plus a floor of the Sheraton, plus the Paramount...where do you grow from there? Without fracturing the con? Even Benaroyal Hall was a pain, and it was like a couple blocks away.
As for how to address lines, I don't know. Adding more "things" (panels, booths) to see only works if you add more space to go with it (or else it's just as crowded, though perhaps some lines would be shorter). Less "things" can reduce crowding, but means longer lines (same number of people, fewer lines). Reducing total number of attendees sucks (already trending towards a day-one sellout).
About all I can come up with is expanding the expo hall hours, which might help. Or it might not. Or at least not much.
I'm trying not to be super negative here, I just don't see any solution.
It was pretty crowded last year.
Most of the problems with crowding/lines are in the expo hall.
Seems like extending the hours for everything else (since the expo hall would still likely close at the same time) would simply increase crowding in the expo hall...because it would give people more time to do other stuff.
I feel like most of the panels weren't that crowded (yes, Skyrim/Irrational, I know). Maybe I just have the right taste in panels. But overall it seems like, this year, most of the problem I saw with lines/crowding revolved around the expo hall, initial entry into the con, and (to some extent) tourney/freeplay.
The second one can't be helped. Freeplay areas could be expanded, perhaps? Or, unless my memory doesn't serve, restored? Pretty sure console at least has shrunk since '09. If you could get exhibitors to add a couple hours to the expo hall, that would help that end. But like I said before, I don't know how much...or if the exhibitors would be willing.
EDIT: Note that when I say panels weren't crowded, I understand there were lines. Often well in advance. But, in most cases, those lines were more about getting a good seat...from my (admittedly limited) observations, most panels didn't seem to fill up more than 20-30 minutes ahead of time. Often less. So you didn't need to wait that long, you simply chose to. Which, to some extent, is fine...because it got you off the floor for a while (crowd management).
Basically, I think attendees need to accept that an average PAX experience will probably consist of seeing maybe a half dozen high-profile games, hitting a half-dozen panels, getting an autograph if that's their thing, and spending the balance either in freeplay (PC, console, tabletop...and again, I do maintain that console may need to expand), hitting low-profile/indie/retail booths, or off-site "activities." Every single year you will need to make choices. Is Acquisitions, Inc. that important to you? Go then, but understand you may not get to see <AAA title here> now. It's all about tradeoffs.
But for as long as you get nerds hell-bent on seeing every damn thing, you'll get half the attendees jumping from one line to the next all day long, making every line unbearable. Seriously, we need to stop that. Chill. There's another one next year.
"Activities" = drunkenings
Firstly, the organization. Many vendor had lines that you never really knew where they were, were they ended, etc. They had lines that overlapped other lines, and interfered with movement. That's what makes an event like PAX seem "over-crowded", when there's little space to move about. If the walkways were moving (and moving with any sort of organization), it wouldn't seem as bad. But when you can't get where you're trying to because there are dozens if not hundreds of people physically in the way, that's when it seems bad.
I think this could be solved by designating the direction of traffic flow in some areas, by making actual barriers between lines and walkways, and by people simply being more courteous to their fellow gamers. I can't count how many times I was walking through an area to find one or two people that were being completely disruptive to the flow of foot traffic. People that suddenly stop to look at something but don't move out of the path of traffic, people that insist on walking 3 or 4 people across rather than leaving room for traffic from the opposite direction, etc. I'm actually tempted to try and make some videos and submit them to PA for "foot traffic ettiquette" next year.
The second part of my initial point is the vendors themselves. When a vendor (especially those with AAA titles) sets up an area that is not at all equipped to handle the number of people interested in their product, it creates a problem. For instance, let's say a title has taken 4 big chunks of floor space. Then they use 3 of those chunks for "fluff". The 4th, where the actual content of their display is (demo machines, typically), has a capacity of 16 people at a time. And each group of 16 takes 20 minutes. Even with 5 minutes between groups, you're not going to get much more than about 250 people through your demo in the ENTIRE DAY. That's at peak efficiency. This is the sort of setup that leads to things like 6 hour lines for Skyrim at 10:05 am. There's literally not enough access for the size of the crowd. More demo machines, less fluff, shorter times for playing based on interest... this would get more people access and thereby move the line much faster, which then leads to less congestion.
Yes, there's the case of wanting to show off how popular they are by having huge waits. And if a vendor wants to pay for that much floor space, that's between them and the PAX staff. But the staff COULD say "no lines longer than" x people or y minutes. Keep it moving, give people access and make it enjoyable for more. Not just awesome for a select few and annoying for everyone else.
Feel free to disagree with me, but that's my take.
Tabletop PAX, with lots of tournaments and freeplay, and its own "expo" (Steve Jackson, etc)
Expo Hall PAX, with all the pomp and circumstance of huge exhibits and long lines to play cool demos.
Huge Event PAX, with concerts, celebrity panels and music geeks.
Panel PAX, where you can listen forever to the people who make games (see also the official PAX DEV)
WoTC PAX, with tons of MTG and D&D events
Community PAX, with pre-, during- and post- PAX events and after parties. Hang out with friends all weekend!
And this year there was even HALO PAX.
I don't think PAX is getting too big, it's more that it encompasses more and more interests all the time, which draws more attendees.
3DS Friend Code: 3737-9749-7483
This is a good suggestion.
3DS Friend Code: 3737-9749-7483
Or, maybe vendor lines need to stay within their floor space. If they expect a line, they should budget their own floor space for it, not walking floor space.
(Edited for word miss-placement)
Last year, it was more Panel, Community, and Tabletop.
First year, Tabletop, Expo, Community.
God help you if you're into WoTC, or concerts, etc.
And even trying to get three different facets in means you miss out on a lot from the other two. That's just how it is. This is, to be honest, why I am considering hitting PAX East in addition to Prime. Sure, a lot of the stuff is vaguely similar between the two...but I missed 90% of the shit at Prime. So, like, this means I would only be missing 80%. A 100% improvement!
This is people in general. Everywhere. Fucking hate it. I used to be the misanthrope that would just walk full on into people on the sidewalk on campus if they decided to walk four abreast and force me off into the snow/grass...nope, my sidewalk too, pay attention and be considerate. I'm a little nicer at something like PAX, because there's more reason to be distracted...but seriously, people, situation awareness is your friend. You are standing where 3,000 people are, at this moment, trying to walk...this is not the place to check your twitternets.
Yeah, this was touched on a little in the suggestions thread, but "closed" booths in particular aren't helping this any. But they really need to reign in some of these exhibitors that want to fit a AAA title into a shoebox of a booth. I mean, we can make fun of Firefall all day because their booth was, like, bigger than Bethesda and Bioware combined. But doesn't this also say something about the relative size of the other exhibitors as well? That maybe their booths were too small to handle demand?
I'd say a single person-width around their booths is a reasonable limit. Which, in many cases, is about what was enforced.
Not a bad idea, at all. Would definitely help with the traffic issue, though not necessarily with the wait time issue. I'd even be happy with a simple barrier between lines and traffic areas. I myself accidentally cut in a couple lines because it was not clear at all where the actual line was. Of course, I was promptly informed of this by the people I cut in front of, and thus corrected my placement.
http://s774.photobucket.com/user/SchoolGirlGoodness/library/
https://www.etsy.com/shop/VeronatheMad
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Either allow lines at every door, or actually restrict access to those doors until the queue room is truly empty. Inconsistency is not friendly.
That's pretty much what I have done for the last 3 years... always done the exhibit halls, but concentrated on something different besides the exhibit halls. At PAX 10 I did more panels, some console, and LAN free play... not much tabletop. This year... I didn't do any panels, but did allot of tabletop gaming...
PENIS EXPLODE
Seriously, give me an excuse to travel somewhere cooler than Boston. I dare you.
So, please don't go to all 3 otherwise they'll all be too crowded
Organizer of the Post-PAX Party. You should come!
Satellite Theater for life!
But yeah, better line management in the Expo (this would take collaboration between the Enforcers and the exhibitors) and around 3-5000 less forged badges would probably fix a lot of the congestion. Civ 5 style lines for really long game sessions, capped line lengths for things that are super popular, and more open air booths. Having BYOC & Freeplay restored to size might help. A restored handheld lounge, too. Places for people to go that aren't in a 4-hour-long line to play League of Legends, basically.
*i kid, i kid
To my knowledge, both '09 and '10 were at "fire marshal capacity," more or less. Yet '10 felt more crowded than '09. This is why I'm not willing to write off crowding to the extra 5K attendees. They surely had some impact (especially on obviously things like swag bags) but I think there's more at play when it comes to turning the expo hall into a living hell and choking up the free play areas.
Which is why regardless of a third PAX, this is a good thing to look at. Because then you'll just have all three at capacity.
I think that "closed" booths are becoming more common (I don't remember any at '09, though there may have been some, and there seemed to be less at '10). So I think that's one thing. I guess I'm just trying to figure out what else is making PAX feel "too big" when, at least from '09 to '10, it didn't necessarily grow that much.
As for the counterfeit badge issue, I believe a lot of the blame falls on the convention center staff for not being very diligent(not to be a dick or nothing) a lot of the time my badge would be flipped over and they would let me pass with no questions. Sometimes me and my friends joke that we could just bring our last years badges and still pass through(not that we would).
Also I had never thought of PAX in the way AKJAK described it. Maybe my expectations are too high lol.
09 didn't have the issues with the closed booths from what I can remember. I would really encourage the PAX gods to not allow people run those things because all they do is piss people off and cause massive lines.
PAX 2013 STATUS - Badges: PURCHASED Hotel: RESERVED Vacation: Awaiting approval Plane Tickets: Waiting on vacation approval.
Anyways, I had a blast. I just wish I had another day to enjoy the show. I spent so much time waiting in lines for demos, waiting in lines for panels, and waiting in lines for waiting in lines... As the expo hall was about ready to cloase on Sunday I was running around still trying to see stuff I hadn't had time for.
I second that. Since '07, I used to be one of those people who rate the "success" of my PAX experience on How Much/Many: how much swag? how many panels? how much further ahead than the rest of the people stampeding into the hall...etc. This year I developed a parasite (human baby) that slowed me WAY down. I really had to sit down and name one thing per 3 hours of PAX, with manageable crowds/lines, that I feel I cannot afford to miss, and go to those, forsaking all other sorts of lining up/waiting for swag/being in a raffle/squeezing into things in general. And the surprising thing was: I saw just as much, I came home with just as good of a time, and I was way less tired at the end of the weekend than previous years since '07. I did come home with fewer "swag", but those that I did take were from less obvious sources, and they were sweeter as well: I did not come home with a single shirt that did not fit, this year. (One year I had 10 or so in 3 sizes too big....yes, the greed, I know...)
So, my advice would be, like mcdermott says, chill. Don't rate the success of your experience on quantity, but on quality: did you talk to awesome people? Did you make a friend? Did you find a new game that you didn't know already existed before PAX? Did you learn something cool from a panel? etc.
That's the other issue of "too many physical bodies in a finite space". Star Wars the Old Republic game out some badges that said "come back at BLAH-o'clock and we'll fit you in." Last year's Civ V preview was also on a sign-up first basis. I think all vendors should be required to do this. It may not look as good for them publicity-wise, but PAX is for us, not for them to snap media pictures and say "look how popular we are".
One more related thing: Some of my friends actually did check out FireFall, and the staff there were all worn out and didn't want to talk to them about the game. That was retarded, and I blame their company for buying too much space and not thinking about how much face-time each person who wanders into their sphere of influence will actually get. Perhaps PAX can request for a sort of "business plan": how are you going to accommodate all those people you will attract, within our hours, without being a nuisance to adjacent booths and taking up floor space?
I got a medical badge this year too, and couldn't make it to Friday preview due to personal reasons. I did, however, get to go in 5 minutes ahead of opening on Sat and Sunday, in the queue room, which allowed me to demo 1 game per day (Citizen Skywatch and Star Wars, respectively.) For Star Wars, I still had to wait 30 minutes because of media and exhibitor people already standing in line ahead--I'm so thankful my +1 carried a little chair around for me to sit on, otherwise even with the massively helpful head start, I'd have to bail.
For those of us with physical conditions, we need that 5 minute head start to move toward the one booth that we will be seeing all day. People were literally running into the hall once it actually hit 10 o'clock -- we would've been Mufasa in a Stampede even if we managed to be first in line.
I won't be needing a medical badge next year. But could we please allow those that do to go ahead in front of the media people?
The Enforcers were super awesome. The staff less so: they were sometimes short, and sometimes downright hostile to us. I heard comments like "God, how many gamers CAN there be?!" One shouted "we have no room to sit down! MOVE IT" to me--I'm sitting down on a tiny camping stool because I'm 5 months pregnant, not because I'm entitled to more room or am too lazy to stand in line. Just because we are young, enthusiastic and dressed in T-shirts/shorts doesn't mean we should be respected less than the usual suit types that appear in the convention center.
The fact that they sometimes have no idea what's going on and are inconsistent only adds insult to injury.
Srenaeb, yeah PA events and some of the Exhibit booths were really helpful. Sherpa has informed me I will probably have a chair next year because of the pain and paralyze I faced this last year. I still love PAX and will continue to come and play!
http://s774.photobucket.com/user/SchoolGirlGoodness/library/
https://www.etsy.com/shop/VeronatheMad
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
They have discuss a third one in the past, maybe Europe. The problem is the cons are not going to get any smaller because people go to multiple PAX's and there is now a huge calling for these events. They will always be capped and full. We just get really cuddly with each other and enjoy what we got!
http://s774.photobucket.com/user/SchoolGirlGoodness/library/
https://www.etsy.com/shop/VeronatheMad
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
As soon as you start regulating things like lines and booth size, I think the expo will take a turn for the worse. The only reasonable response I can see for lines is to get those rope/barrier things. But then those just get in the way, and the line will always extend past them. I suppose the booths could hire someone to regulate the lines...but thats the problem, they have to pay someone to do that. These people are getting paid to do this and maybe not every vendor can afford extra people, let alone an entire extra day of the expo.
This also coincides the with first timer advice thread. Don't go expecting to see a bunch of stuff. Prioritize your day and commit to a few things or else you will be disappointed.
Obviously the crowding is some sort of problem and thats why they expanded to other venues. But I don't think its so bad that they will implement extra regulation or lower caps and I hope they don't. It's perfect just the way it is :3
While there are people who will happily devote the time & money to go to all three PAXes, I'm fairly certain the vast majority of people will typically go to the PAX closest them, and possibly one other, per year.
Of course, if it turns out I'm wrong, they can make a fourth PAX...
The biggest issue I had was that I had no idea what was going on until late on Friday.
Overall, I feel like any line that has a 5 hour wait should be considered an issue. Borderlands 2 was one that I felt was a bit unruly...at times, 3 hours and lining the walls. While the Enforcers did a great job keeping people on the wall, it still made for a bit of a congestion problem in that area. Skyrim, of course, was problematic.
However, these problems are not necessarily Penny Arcade problems so much as they're vendor annoyances.
I dunno. There were a lot of folk and yes, it was more crowded.
Yes, I'm in favor of lowering the cap, but I have been for 2 - 3 years now. There was a sweet spot that seemed to be hit in 2008...I feel like that was the best year from an attendance/expo-hall perspective.
paxprank.org | paxcommunity.net | Steam | XBL
i think in general it's worth noting that pax east, now that it's been relocated to the bcec, doesn't really have this crowding problem. at east 2011, everything felt really spacious and comfortable except the expo hall, which can easily be expanded in the future. so if we're talking about pax being to big overall, i would say probably not. it sounds like the real problem is pax prime outgrowing its location.
I agree. The lines at PAX East never felt intrusive. Also the tall ceilings of the BCEC make it feel less claustrophobic when you are surrounded by a lot of people.