But it's not greece's mistakes here, it's everyone in the EU being all confused about itself and whether their is an imperative to help every member state.
Yeah, this has really started to pop up lately. Like the Schengen agreement for open travel within the EU - now some countries are grumbling about DEY TUK AR JARBS because workers from poorer countries come and do cheap jobs in other countries to make (for them) lots of money and then take it back home. Can't remember which countries it where, but some countries are actively preventing the passport-free travel required by the Schengen agreement for people from certain other countries.
It's bizarre that people try to draw comparisons to the EU and United States because shit doesn't get this ridiculous except maybe once every 200 years. Maybe during the great depression people hated other people from other states.
Germany also started WWI, which was a much worse sin. And since that war was popular in Germany, there's a much stronger argument that the Weimar Republic deserved what they got.
The general idea is that foreign nations imposing collective punishment for the sins of a nation have a long track record of turning out poorly. I'm sure someone can find some positive examples, but I can't think of any that didn't eventually lead to a war.
/brief threadjack
That's a highly debatable statement. The victorious Allies decided Germany started the war after the war ended, but historians are actually much more divided on the question. I personally lean more towards Russia or Austria-Hungary as the power that actually started the war, if one has to assign blame at all. Once Russia decided to mobilize it's armies (back in the day, this was a clear act of war) after Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, Germany then declared war on Russia and France, since the Germans realized they were going to have to fight them both anyways. The Germans simply misunderstood Britian's will to enforce her treaty with Belgium. In many ways, you could actually argue that Britian was to blame for the way they handled the diplomatic communications in the days prior to the war.
To be frank, the start of WWI had so much to do with societal issues in Europe that it's unfair to blame one single nation for starting the war.
/why yes, the start of WWI was what I wrote my senior thesis on.
//sorry for the threadjack, back to Greece.
argentina is doing well because they have a strong export market now. I don't think greece has anything similar to the soybean boom argentina had.
Tourism is considered an export, but Jesus Christ, Santorini is expensive and tourism is not nearly as edible as soybeans.
Shipping is a much larger contributor (especially now, since instability drives down tourism revenues), but depressed global economies mean less stuff being shipped.
It's kind of a perfect storm of shittiness for Greece right now. I don't envy their policymakers.
That's a highly debatable statement. The victorious Allies decided Germany started the war after the war ended, but historians are actually much more divided on the question. I personally lean more towards Russia or Austria-Hungary as the power that actually started the war, if one has to assign blame at all. Once Russia decided to mobilize it's armies (back in the day, this was a clear act of war) after Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, Germany then declared war on Russia and France, since the Germans realized they were going to have to fight them both anyways. The Germans simply misunderstood Britian's will to enforce her treaty with Belgium. In many ways, you could actually argue that Britian was to blame for the way they handled the diplomatic communications in the days prior to the war.
Hmm, the story I heard was that Germany declared war on France simply because all of their pre-war planning had been for a two-front war against France and Russia.
0
Options
AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
edited October 2011
Again, sorry for the threadjack.
Pi-r8, there is truth in that statement to some degree. They expected (and planned) to fight a two-front war on Russia/France because of the alliance between France/Russia. When Russia mobilized it's armies, Germany's war plan (the infamous Schlieffen Plan) gave it 6 weeks to knock out France before being faced with an unwinnable two front war. The Schlieffen Plan, of course, has been debated to death as to it's viability.
IMHO, Von Moltke's slight alteration to the SP made it fail; the whole point was a quick, aggressive strike. By shoring up the defense instead of going for the kill, the plan collapsed. More distinquished historians claim the plan was doomed from the start because there simply was no way to effectively enact the plan due to the logistics available at the time.
IMHO, Von Moltke's slight alteration to the SP made it fail; the whole point was a quick, aggressive strike. By shoring up the defense instead of going for the kill, the plan collapsed. More distinquished historians claim the plan was doomed from the start because there simply was no way to effectively enact the plan due to the logistics available at the time.
The plan called for the right flank to advance at a ridiculous pace per day. It was simply not viable.
AssuranIs swinging on the SpiralRegistered Userregular
Indeed, that is a rather viable reading of the situation, as I mentioned. I think the fact many horses died from feeding them bad corn and so many men were diverted were major factors as well, but I will concede that the pace of the attack was highly rigid and the lack of roads in the area needed were also contributing factors.
This crisis at least gives more credence to the original Unites States Confederation concept would never have worked. If states didn't have balanced budgets as law (or not be as sane as Vermont), I'm assuming that some states (CA,FL) would be in even worse positions right now.
I'm not sure how much you know about the Greek Orthodox church, but they have a proud tradition of over a millennia of rampant corruption and moneygrubbing at the expense of everyone else. The Metropolites in Greece usually seem to live in the fanciest houses on the street.
Capitalism is a faulty system and the proof is right there and in the markets of America. It is no wonder that a doomed economic system is failing.
I don't really see how the situation in Greece has anything to do with capitalism. It's a combination of an epidemic level of tax avoidance plus government fecklesness and inability to live within its means.
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
So again..what other options do they have besides these austerity measures? Or defaulting, which sounds like it'd be even worse.
I'm honestly curious here.
Greece has almost no options. Its partners in the EU have options, but it looks like they'd rather lecture Greece about morality.
It's not so much lecturing Greece about morality as the rest of Europe having no interest in paying for their mistakes.
But it's not greece's mistakes here, it's everyone in the EU being all confused about itself and whether their is an imperative to help every member state.
The solution (or lack there of) involves alot of mistakes by non-Greeks yes. The problems are largely Greece's faults, but others take the blame as well sure.
But the thing is this:
Without help, Greece would be fucked so so so bad. The Eurozone isn't imposing a shitty situation on Greece, they are merely refusing to save them from one.
And they are refusing to help them because they (mostly correctly) thinks it's alot Greece's own fault and they have no interest in spending their money to fix someone else's problem.
The Eurozone is a monetary union, but it's not a cultural/national union and that's a really BIG problem. Because the sense of community that comes with national/cultural unity is what makes people willing to do shit like pay to help people in trouble.
(Reuters) - In a bizarre twist to the Greek debt crisis, France and Germany are pressing Greece to buy their gunboats and warplanes, even as they urge it to cut public spending and curb its deficit.
Posts
It's bizarre that people try to draw comparisons to the EU and United States because shit doesn't get this ridiculous except maybe once every 200 years. Maybe during the great depression people hated other people from other states.
Tourism is considered an export, but Jesus Christ, Santorini is expensive and tourism is not nearly as edible as soybeans.
/brief threadjack
That's a highly debatable statement. The victorious Allies decided Germany started the war after the war ended, but historians are actually much more divided on the question. I personally lean more towards Russia or Austria-Hungary as the power that actually started the war, if one has to assign blame at all. Once Russia decided to mobilize it's armies (back in the day, this was a clear act of war) after Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, Germany then declared war on Russia and France, since the Germans realized they were going to have to fight them both anyways. The Germans simply misunderstood Britian's will to enforce her treaty with Belgium. In many ways, you could actually argue that Britian was to blame for the way they handled the diplomatic communications in the days prior to the war.
To be frank, the start of WWI had so much to do with societal issues in Europe that it's unfair to blame one single nation for starting the war.
/why yes, the start of WWI was what I wrote my senior thesis on.
//sorry for the threadjack, back to Greece.
Shipping is a much larger contributor (especially now, since instability drives down tourism revenues), but depressed global economies mean less stuff being shipped.
It's kind of a perfect storm of shittiness for Greece right now. I don't envy their policymakers.
Pi-r8, there is truth in that statement to some degree. They expected (and planned) to fight a two-front war on Russia/France because of the alliance between France/Russia. When Russia mobilized it's armies, Germany's war plan (the infamous Schlieffen Plan) gave it 6 weeks to knock out France before being faced with an unwinnable two front war. The Schlieffen Plan, of course, has been debated to death as to it's viability.
IMHO, Von Moltke's slight alteration to the SP made it fail; the whole point was a quick, aggressive strike. By shoring up the defense instead of going for the kill, the plan collapsed. More distinquished historians claim the plan was doomed from the start because there simply was no way to effectively enact the plan due to the logistics available at the time.
The plan called for the right flank to advance at a ridiculous pace per day. It was simply not viable.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
Greece just overextended itself way more than everybody else.
Yeah for all the hooblah about Greece being punished here the other options involve us taking the hit.
I'm not sure how much you know about the Greek Orthodox church, but they have a proud tradition of over a millennia of rampant corruption and moneygrubbing at the expense of everyone else. The Metropolites in Greece usually seem to live in the fanciest houses on the street.
Rigorous Scholarship
The solution (or lack there of) involves alot of mistakes by non-Greeks yes. The problems are largely Greece's faults, but others take the blame as well sure.
But the thing is this:
Without help, Greece would be fucked so so so bad. The Eurozone isn't imposing a shitty situation on Greece, they are merely refusing to save them from one.
And they are refusing to help them because they (mostly correctly) thinks it's alot Greece's own fault and they have no interest in spending their money to fix someone else's problem.
The Eurozone is a monetary union, but it's not a cultural/national union and that's a really BIG problem. Because the sense of community that comes with national/cultural unity is what makes people willing to do shit like pay to help people in trouble.
sauce