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[Starcraft2] "Zerg can't beat protoss." - Idra

MNC DoverMNC Dover Aspiring Game DesignerSeattle, WARegistered User regular
edited January 2012 in Games and Technology
Welcome to the Starcraft 2 thread


lemming.jpg


PA Tournaments!

CSL January 2012 Double Elimination

http://challonge.com/tournaments/signup/83f3jonivu

By PAers, for PAers. Open to all leagues.

Start time: 1/29 @ 4:00 PM EST

Best-of-3 for all matches except for the winners semifinals and winner/losers final which are best of 5.

Map pool:
1) ESV Cloud Kingdom
2) Antiga Shipyard
3) Daybreak
4) Entombed Valley
5) Metropolis

Please meet in PA channel for your games. Walkover time is 15 minutes. If you end up not being able to make it, please let Kambing know (via forum PM) asap.

GLHF!
I want to play SC2 awesome like everyone else!

So, the SC2 thread goes a million miles per hour and will leave you in the dust if you aren't prepared. All things are open to discussion here from build orders, practice partners, race match-ups, tournament talk, and general bizarre Korean stuff. In order to keep up, I highly recommend you check out the following resources:
Spoiler:

OK that's all cool, but I want to play with some PA people.
Spoiler:

JK. I like watching Starcraft instead. Where can I watch some good games?
Spoiler:

And finally....

MNC Dover on
http://www.gamesbygray.com (my website and resume)
Nintendo Network ID: MNC.Dover
XBL Gamertag: MNC Dover
Starcraft II: MNCDover.235
3DS: 1934-0659-5183
Hero Academy: MNC_Dover
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Posts

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    From old thread:

    Yilias wrote:
    Every time I check Catz' stream it seems like he's either cheesing and winning or cheesing and failing followed by praying that Burrowed Infestors will save him.


    My brother from another mother!
    Spoiler:

    MMMig on
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • crucialityfactorcrucialityfactor Registered User regular
    Mmm new thread smell.

    Also all of a sudden i can't win long drawn out max army PvPs. I feel like I'm being way too passive and letting opponent get out way more collosi than he should be able to. Time to stop being such a baby.

  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    ughhh this thread

    so icky

    so pokerstrategy.com

    i can't take it

  • iowaiowa Registered User regular
    booya sup guys im back

    just had to promise i wouldnt troll and they let me back in *sips cristal*

    anyway havent been following the pro scene much but havent seen any MLGs or Dreamhacks coming up. no new SOTG for a freakn month is esports dying??????

    you man the island and the cocaine and the elegant cars
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/iowa
    signature.png
  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    iowa wrote:
    booya sup guys im back

    just had to promise i wouldnt troll and they let me back in *sips cristal*

    anyway havent been following the pro scene much but havent seen any MLGs or Dreamhacks coming up. no new SOTG for a freakn month is esports dying??????

    SotG always takes a break at the end of the year. You just missed Homestory Cup IV which was amazing.

  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    esports is already dead sorry

    you killed it

    Biosys on
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Thanks for the thread title, but just so we are clear (and to remain honest), I heavily burrowed the line from Terminator 2 :P

    Lilnoobs on
  • DoomninjaDoomninja Registered User regular
    Why do all the terrans 1 basing!

    1154825-1.png
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    played a terran yesterday, he was top 8 diamond, whatever that means. He never expanded and did some big marine/marauder drop in my base when I was already on hive tech w/ my third just finished. Made a viking beforehand to go overlord hunting so I wouldn't see but I scouted it anyways. Baneling'd the shit out of the drop. Then he kept attacking... off one base while I was on three.


    I'm saddened that strat has clearly worked for him in the past.

    ByalIX8.png
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    Puma's split in that super 15 video is the best thing ever.

    Steam ||| SC2 - Jaziek.377 on EU & NA. ||| Twitch Stream
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Aspiring Game Designer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote:
    Thanks for the thread title, but just so we are clear (and to remain honest), I heavily burrowed the line from Terminator 2 :P

    We have no thread title than what we make.

    http://www.gamesbygray.com (my website and resume)
    Nintendo Network ID: MNC.Dover
    XBL Gamertag: MNC Dover
    Starcraft II: MNCDover.235
    3DS: 1934-0659-5183
    Hero Academy: MNC_Dover
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    So I was waiting for HST to end to post this, and it may be a bit late:

    Last week, Gabe mentioned that 90% of Weekend tickets had been sold for PAXEast

    then I saw a tweet yesterday that all weekend PAXEast passes are sold out.
    :(

    Single day passes still remain though!


    So, if anyone's going, hit me up. A few friends and I are going, and last year's SC2 for PAXEast was frigign' awesome!
    We overwhelmed the state-of-the-game room and a TON of people were turned away due to capacity. :(

    Day9 gave literary everyone a high-5!


    Don't know if the layout this year puts SC2 in a bigger room but that'd be awesome.

    It felt like there were enough of us to fill up the main stage.

    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote:
    Thanks for the thread title, but just so we are clear (and to remain honest), I heavily burrowed the line from Terminator 2 :P

    I came within an inch of posting that you made me cry from my red robotic eyes, but I didn't want to spoil it for other people.

  • shwaipshwaip Registered User regular
    I had a good time in the CSL tournament in december - is there interest in doing another this/next month?

  • KambingKambing Registered User regular
    New year's starting up, and I'm no longer I-don't-get-sleep levels of busy. So I'm going to start daily streaming of ladder games, replay analyses, and other miscellaneous shit. I'll post here when things go live, but generally I'll be streaming after 8:00 EST. I'll also be in mumble during that time if people want to chat, do team games, or whatever.

    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    shwaip wrote:
    I had a good time in the CSL tournament in december - is there interest in doing another this/next month?

    It would be really cool to put together a consistent monthly CSL. I'd be willing to help with organizing this.

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    I'd also be willing to help organize some CSLs.

    Anything to keep bro-tosses from stacking all the hard-working, honest Zergs on one side of the ladder.

    <3

    MMMig on
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • KambingKambing Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Yeah same with the GSLs.

    (Reducing the number of zerg participants, one by one.)

    Kambing on
    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    that is a cool thing you are doing kambing

    although it may be too late for me T.T

    monthly csls would be cool, but i probably can't take part for the next few months due to school, maybe if the days line up perfectly or something

  • SaarutoSaaruto Registered User regular
    Wish I could make it to PAXEast this year...I might go to PAX Prime though. Oh well.

    If you can chill, chill.
    Steam ID
  • narwhalnarwhal monodon monoceros Registered User regular
    So guys, I find that I can out macro most of my silver opponents on the ladder.
    The only trouble I run into is mutas.
    Since I can't micro to save my life and cannons around my minerals and pumping out stalkers isn't working, what can I do early game to force my opponent to not muta?

    MMMig: Alright ladies, are you in here?
    Because we're not pulling over again
  • FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    Attack them before mutas hit.

    But yeah, handling mutas as protoss sucks, in general just murdering them might work if your macro is better and they are too stupid to go for a trade.

    SC2EU/US: Frozenzen.437 Steam: Frozenzen
  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    opponent and you go mutas

    keep making muta while your opponent makes the smart transition

    win

    *flex*

  • TannerMSTannerMS Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Mutas seem like they'd be really rough to deal with till you reach a certain level of micro/multitask. Maybe chronoing double phoenix or all-ining when you scout it would be an easy out while you work on those things

    TannerMS on
  • badger2dbadger2d San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2012
    narwhal wrote:
    So guys, I find that I can out macro most of my silver opponents on the ladder.
    The only trouble I run into is mutas.
    Since I can't micro to save my life and cannons around my minerals and pumping out stalkers isn't working, what can I do early game to force my opponent to not muta?

    Opinion of a low-gold level Z here, so I probably work similarly to what your ladder opponents will do:

    I aim for mutas against Toss who look passive. Mutas are very expensive. The idea is that if Toss doesn't show any sign of early game threat, I can drone my natural up hard and then use the money to take map control with muta harass, build a third while denying yours, and eventually win with infinity lings/roaches/hydras. But once I've committed to this strategy, I've rolled the dice that Toss will not attack for a few minutes, and I'm just not building much of any defense.

    So bottom line...attack! I've died outright a lot to Toss who push with a couple of immortals, hitting after I've invested a lot in drones but before I can have a spire. You can also even just move out, take the xel'naga towers, maybe sit outside my base briefly with even a smallish army. Toss who fight for early map control look threatening. You stop mutas by doing early game economic damage to Zerg, and you can do economic damage to Zerg just by looking scary. Any units I make to defend, I have to use larvae that I would rather have made into drones if you hadn't scared me. You slow down my economy, you slow down my mutas.

    badger2d on
    Blizzard: Symphony #1704
    Steam: badger2d
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Not sure where I heard this, but does having two nydus networks allow for units to load/unload faster from worms?

    They all share the same "tunnels" right?
    Worms aren't exclusive to the network that spawns them?

    MMMig on
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • TannerMSTannerMS Registered User regular
    99% sure you can double unload from the same group

  • badger2dbadger2d San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2012
    I think the only difference having more networks makes is that you can build more worms at once. All worms and networks are connected. With two networks you could, if you wanted, build two worms at once side by side and get units out faster by unloading through both of them, but I never heard of multiple networks allowing individual worms to unload faster.

    badger2d on
    Blizzard: Symphony #1704
    Steam: badger2d
  • YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    All the Worms connect to the same underground hub and you can use multiple entrances/exits at the same time.

  • SceptreSceptre Registered User regular
    narwhal wrote:
    So guys, I find that I can out macro most of my silver opponents on the ladder.
    The only trouble I run into is mutas.
    Since I can't micro to save my life and cannons around my minerals and pumping out stalkers isn't working, what can I do early game to force my opponent to not muta?

    Learn how to 7 gate properly, it will get you far vs zerg, let you work on unit control and crisp timings, and absolutely crushes any sort of greedy muta play.

    Try to find a replay or something of someone doing a perfect 7 gate (white ra is a good example), and then just mirror it vs an ai or something until you have about the same number of workers and your dudes warp in at the same time.

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Interesting.... OK I'll give it a test when I get to play again.

    It's becoming a pain having to remember to load queens first (due to the FIFO logic) so they can come out first and transfuse my worm, or even worse, tabbing through the worm queue to the queens to hand-select their unload first.

    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    It felt like there were enough of us to fill up the main stage.
    I'm so pissed I can't go this year

    BNet-Vari#1998 | WiiU-Variable | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
    Sig%20-%20Hearthstone%20DoA.png
  • badger2dbadger2d San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2012
    I feel like I've plateaued in this game.

    After focusing on droning for a while, I got good enough at reading the game and droning at appropriate times such that I can nearly always saturate 3 bases and seriously out-eco my gold league opponents. But beyond that, I still can't macro for shit. It doesn't really make a difference that I've learned how to harvest 10,000 more resources than my opponents every game, because I'll end the game with 10,000 resources in the bank.

    It's obvious that the floating problem is now what's holding me back and I've tried to focus on keeping the money down for some time, but I just don't know how apparently, I'm not getting any better at it.

    This should be taken more as me scratching my head than ranting. I'm still having a lot of fun playing the game. I just have noticed I'm not improving anymore, and even though I know what my current limiting factor is, I don't know what to actually do in game to get past it.

    badger2d on
    Blizzard: Symphony #1704
    Steam: badger2d
  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    spend the money

    can you fit in a macro hatch or more upgrades? faster tech? are you missing larvae injects? there must be something keeping you from spending the money.

    T and P have to drop down production buildings which is a pain to get used to but it's at least an easy place to look if you can't get your money spent. doesn't seem so simple with zerg

    BNet-Vari#1998 | WiiU-Variable | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
    Sig%20-%20Hearthstone%20DoA.png
  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    badger2d wrote:
    I feel like I've plateaued in this game.

    After focusing on droning for a while, I got good enough at reading the game and droning at appropriate times such that I can nearly always saturate 3 bases and seriously out-eco my gold league opponents. But beyond that, I still can't macro for shit. It doesn't really make a difference that I've learned how to harvest 10,000 more resources than my opponents every game, because I'll end the game with 10,000 resources in the bank.

    It's obvious that the floating problem is now what's holding me back and I've tried to focus on keeping the money down for some time, but I just don't know how apparently, I'm not getting any better at it.

    This should be taken more as me scratching my head than ranting. I'm still having a lot of fun playing the game. I just have noticed I'm not improving anymore, and even though I know what my current limiting factor is, I don't know what to actually do in game to get past it.

    Why are you floating - is it because you don't have the larvae to spend all your income, or do you get to 200/200 and then wait for The Big Battle without taking any losses?

    I know I'm awful and my mechanics are terrible, etc., but once I hit max food my goal becomes to spend my larvae, not my money. If I'm banking a ton of larvae and don't see a big engagement coming in the next 60 seconds, I'll throw a ton of lings at my opponent and see what I can pick off with 'em. Has my opponent taken their third? Let's send 75 speedlings off to die find out!

    Watching an opponent quit without gg'ing after the third wave of 30-50 speedlings mauls his frontline/natural is pretty satisfying.

    _
    XBL: Steampunk Ninja | iOS: hlprmnky | PSN: hlprmnky_2 | SC2: Callow.126
  • MorranMorran Registered User regular
    narwhal wrote:
    So guys, I find that I can out macro most of my silver opponents on the ladder.
    The only trouble I run into is mutas.
    Since I can't micro to save my life and cannons around my minerals and pumping out stalkers isn't working, what can I do early game to force my opponent to not muta?

    High gold toss here. I always go for a 1 gate, 1 starport opening, get a void ray, a Phoenix and a few gateway units. Then just push out and expand at the same time. Either you win right away, or if not, zerg will go hydras 99% of the time. Mutas just don't seem that attractive with a few paper planes flying around...

  • badger2dbadger2d San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2012
    hlprmnky wrote:
    badger2d wrote:
    I feel like I've plateaued in this game.

    After focusing on droning for a while, I got good enough at reading the game and droning at appropriate times such that I can nearly always saturate 3 bases and seriously out-eco my gold league opponents. But beyond that, I still can't macro for shit. It doesn't really make a difference that I've learned how to harvest 10,000 more resources than my opponents every game, because I'll end the game with 10,000 resources in the bank.

    It's obvious that the floating problem is now what's holding me back and I've tried to focus on keeping the money down for some time, but I just don't know how apparently, I'm not getting any better at it.

    This should be taken more as me scratching my head than ranting. I'm still having a lot of fun playing the game. I just have noticed I'm not improving anymore, and even though I know what my current limiting factor is, I don't know what to actually do in game to get past it.

    Why are you floating - is it because you don't have the larvae to spend all your income, or do you get to 200/200 and then wait for The Big Battle without taking any losses?

    I know I'm awful and my mechanics are terrible, etc., but once I hit max food my goal becomes to spend my larvae, not my money. If I'm banking a ton of larvae and don't see a big engagement coming in the next 60 seconds, I'll throw a ton of lings at my opponent and see what I can pick off with 'em. Has my opponent taken their third? Let's send 75 speedlings off to die find out!

    Watching an opponent quit without gg'ing after the third wave of 30-50 speedlings mauls his frontline/natural is pretty satisfying.

    I think it's mostly I don't have enough larvae? I do get to missing a lot of injects later in the game, especially once I'm trying to muta harass vs Toss, which happens almost every ZvP since they all go FFE and at my level they spend so much money on so many cannons at the front, muta harass just feels like a no-brainer response. I'm not very good at it but even so, it kills so many probes against those Toss who overdefend their front.

    I actually aim to put up a macro hatch at every base to help stabilize larvae production and use up queen energy once I have a third. I don't always do it though. :/ Just feels like there's so much going on at that point that I can't possibly remember everything. I will either get supply blocked, or not have enough larvae from missing injects and forgetting to build macro hatches, or forget to upgrade anything, or fail to scout and build lots of exactly the wrong units. I don't know how to manage all of those together.

    I've had people say to me that if you can get a significant eco advantage you just focus on producing up to 200/200 of whatever as fast as you can and a-move ftw, but I've taken some embarrassing losses from trying to follow that advice. Like, I attack with 200 supply of 2/2 roaches and the guy was massing VRs.

    badger2d on
    Blizzard: Symphony #1704
    Steam: badger2d
  • KeamienKeamien Registered User regular
    badger2d wrote:
    I feel like I've plateaued in this game.

    After focusing on droning for a while, I got good enough at reading the game and droning at appropriate times such that I can nearly always saturate 3 bases and seriously out-eco my gold league opponents. But beyond that, I still can't macro for shit. It doesn't really make a difference that I've learned how to harvest 10,000 more resources than my opponents every game, because I'll end the game with 10,000 resources in the bank.

    It's obvious that the floating problem is now what's holding me back and I've tried to focus on keeping the money down for some time, but I just don't know how apparently, I'm not getting any better at it.

    This should be taken more as me scratching my head than ranting. I'm still having a lot of fun playing the game. I just have noticed I'm not improving anymore, and even though I know what my current limiting factor is, I don't know what to actually do in game to get past it.

    Ok, so you've solved the critical steps to being good at zerg, knowing how to read your opponent and when to drone. The last step is spending money, and it seems hard but its not.

    Start adding macro hatches. If you think you need one more than you already get, get two more. Think big. When you start being unable to produce because you spent too much on macro hatches, THEN scale it back. Get upgrades, always and forever. There is no reason ever to not get upgrades. Add extraneous tech. Not sure if you'll need that ultralisk cavern? at 10k minerals and 10k gas, why the hell not? And lastly. PRACTICE INJECTS. Seriously its the biggest thing keeping you from being able to spend your money. When you have injects, creep, tech, upgrades and a strong economy, you should be GOLDEN.

  • KeamienKeamien Registered User regular
    badger2d wrote:
    hlprmnky wrote:
    badger2d wrote:
    I feel like I've plateaued in this game.

    After focusing on droning for a while, I got good enough at reading the game and droning at appropriate times such that I can nearly always saturate 3 bases and seriously out-eco my gold league opponents. But beyond that, I still can't macro for shit. It doesn't really make a difference that I've learned how to harvest 10,000 more resources than my opponents every game, because I'll end the game with 10,000 resources in the bank.

    It's obvious that the floating problem is now what's holding me back and I've tried to focus on keeping the money down for some time, but I just don't know how apparently, I'm not getting any better at it.

    This should be taken more as me scratching my head than ranting. I'm still having a lot of fun playing the game. I just have noticed I'm not improving anymore, and even though I know what my current limiting factor is, I don't know what to actually do in game to get past it.

    Why are you floating - is it because you don't have the larvae to spend all your income, or do you get to 200/200 and then wait for The Big Battle without taking any losses?

    I know I'm awful and my mechanics are terrible, etc., but once I hit max food my goal becomes to spend my larvae, not my money. If I'm banking a ton of larvae and don't see a big engagement coming in the next 60 seconds, I'll throw a ton of lings at my opponent and see what I can pick off with 'em. Has my opponent taken their third? Let's send 75 speedlings off to die find out!

    Watching an opponent quit without gg'ing after the third wave of 30-50 speedlings mauls his frontline/natural is pretty satisfying.

    I think it's mostly I don't have enough larvae? I do get to missing a lot of injects later in the game, especially once I'm trying to muta harass vs Toss, which happens almost every ZvP since they all go FFE and at my level they spend so much money on so many cannons at the front, muta harass just feels like a no-brainer response. I'm not very good at it but even so, it kills so many probes against those Toss who overdefend their front.

    I actually aim to put up a macro hatch at every base to help stabilize larvae production and use up queen energy once I have a third. I don't always do it though. :/ Just feels like there's so much going on at that point that I can't possibly remember everything. I will either get supply blocked, or not have enough larvae from missing injects and forgetting to build macro hatches, or forget to upgrade anything, or fail to scout and build lots of exactly the wrong units. I don't know how to manage all of those together.

    I've had people say to me that if you can get a significant eco advantage you just focus on producing up to 200/200 of whatever as fast as you can and a-move ftw, but I've taken some embarrassing losses from trying to follow that advice. Like, I attack with 200 supply of 2/2 roaches and the guy was massing VRs.

    The best thing to do is to focus on improving one thing at a time. You've got droning and expanding down, now work on not missing injects. After that, OL production. After that, creep spread. Once you have all of that down, you're Idra.

  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    White-ra is about to continue his streak of undefeated showmatches by beating TLO 6-0.

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