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The Obama Administration

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Posts

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Sticks wrote: »
    I don't know how common it is for a doctor to "suddenly" be making 200k. Even if it does happen, that is not a very high priority for tax reformation. After loan payments/mortgage/whatever else, I doubt you will be struggling to make ends meet on that kind of money.

    Yeah, I've known doctors who had been practicing for 20 years that still had student loan payments.


    Every part of the process in the American healthcare system is broken.

    Holy shit. That's awful.

  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    Distram wrote: »
    I think it'd be hilarious to see Obama propose that everyone making less than half a mil pays no taxes while everyone making over half a mil pays 50% of their income, capitol gains, etc. in taxes. It's be great to see the Republicans take away a 0% tax on regular people.
    Republicans: "Do you want to pay a 50% tax when you earn your first half-million dollars?"

    The Gullible Folk: "Gosh, I don't want to have to pay a 50% tax on my half-million dollars when I eventually earn it!"



    Interesting if Obama can pull off this corporate tax re-adjustment. And not a bad place to start - since U.S. corporate tax rates have always been unusually high, but riddled with breaks and exemptions.

    Low corporate taxes are actually how some of the most progressive economies operate and fund their public programs (eg. Scandinavia). Low corporate taxes are paired with higher personal income taxes and sales taxes (which are themselves paired with progressive cash transfers to lower-income people to offset the regressive impacts).

  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    galenblade wrote: »
    ....so this happened.

    Obama has so much personality, and not prepackaged PAC manufactured personality, I'd have a hard time disliking him even if he were an absolutely awful president

    I mean I think Santorum and Paul are the only Republican candidates that show genuine personalities and not personalities manufactured to appeal to someone or other - the thing is both of them are awful

    override367 on
    XBLIVE: Biggestoverride
    League of Legends: override367
  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Thanatos wrote: »
    We need to encourage fewer doctors, and more nurses and PAs.

    You don't need to go to school for ten years and then do an internship/residency to be able to look at my ear and say "this is an ear infection."

    Knowing the nurses that I know and have known, the last thing we need is for them to diagnose pretty much anything ever with a basic nursing degree. The crazy idiocy that can somehow make it through nursing school and end out in an operating room is terrifying. PA's go to damn near as much school as MD's and the big advantage of having PA's and NP's is that you can use a single doctor to act as oversight for several of them, generally turning doctors into managers, and in the case of surgeons this is exactly what they did not want to do and why they didn't get into that branch of medicine.

    We need to stop throttling doctors options for treatment and as much as I hate to say it, we need some sort of standard for end of life care. Someone who is dying, not "real real sick but can recover" should get to die. Not spend 6.4 million dollars occupying space in an ICU because the family is afraid to say goodbye. That we can keep someone technically "alive" for a very long time with a no quality of life whatsoever does not mean we should be doing it.

    There are counties and cities where more than the entire budget for public healthcare is taken up by a very tiny handful of people who have mental disorders or drug problems. I will try to locate the specific article but I recall reading about a city that spent over 3 million dollars in a few weeks for 4 patients who habitually use the ER.

    We need more clinicians, but basic preventative healthcare needs to be free. We're dumping more money into this thing trying to turn a profit for someone than it would cost to simply foot the bill and accept that like police and fire departments, medical facilities are not a business you should expect to turn a profit.

    Two people I know have recently been hospitalized.

    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$. I can tell you right now that the La Quinta inn up the street probably has better room service and cleaner rooms than the hospital at which I am an employee. I will never pay a hospital bill, ever. I don't know anyone who actually works in a hospital who would ever pay one either. Unfortunately, no one wants to hear about how healthcare providers fuck up on a regular basis and the service you're paying for may not actually do any good or be worth it. Everyone knows a nurse or two, ask them... we're all told to never ever say negative things about our hospitals, but I've never worked in one that had service that could even come close to competing with the service my cat gets at the vet.

    It's not a great marketing angle. It's one of the things I really hoped Obama would be willing to beat the fuck out of congress to fix, whether they have a (D) or (R). What we're getting isn't going to fix anything at all, someone somewhere will still make their profit and the system may limp along for another year or two longer. It's just unfortunate that banks had to go and fuck everything up and take the focus off of sick people dying and losing their homes and turn it onto rich fucks who have always been rich fucks continuing to be rich fucks.

    Edit: In the above I meant to imply instead of a schizophrenic or alcoholic ending out in the ER three times a month, they should have appropriate treatment options other than "wait til the voices get really really loud or I hurt myself then go to the ER"

    dispatch.o on
  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Seruko on
    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.

  • s7apsters7apster Registered User regular
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Orszag left to make tons of money from the banks he was pushing the policies of while he was in the administration.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.
    ---
    the only way to pay for the boomer generations health care costs is going to be to nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure the bills dont catch up with the rest of us.

    Seruko on
    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    tea-1.jpg
  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    Seruko wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    It will, after all of Obamacare goes into effect.

    Right now, you've got hospitals saying they have to charge ungodly amounts because tons of people simply don't pay them (which is true). When everyone has medical insurance (or nearly everyone), hospitals cannot make that claim anymore.

    So they really have nothing to stand on, after that. Having worked in a hospital and been to the budget meetings, trust me, it's not pretty. They aren't rolling in dough like good ol' Scrooge McDuck. Everyone wants a system where costs can go down, insurance covers everything and people can pay their bills. (Well, except the insurance companies...)


    "The welfare of each of us is dependent fundamentally upon the welfare of all of us."
    Spoiler:
    -Theodore Roosevelt
  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Derrick wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    It will, after all of Obamacare goes into effect.

    Right now, you've got hospitals saying they have to charge ungodly amounts because tons of people simply don't pay them (which is true). When everyone has medical insurance (or nearly everyone), hospitals cannot make that claim anymore.

    So they really have nothing to stand on, after that. Having worked in a hospital and been to the budget meetings, trust me, it's not pretty. They aren't rolling in dough like good ol' Scrooge McDuck. Everyone wants a system where costs can go down, insurance covers everything and people can pay their bills. (Well, except the insurance companies...)


    My completely un-educated belief is that this is Pollyannaish.
    I would love to be wrong.
    I would love to be a doomy-dark-emo-crazy-pants.
    But this congress, or one like it? The last senate couldn't get even the most modest, built from the dreams of the heritage foundation health care reform past through the normal process. You add in any kind of cost reform and you'll get even more push back. If they open up obama care that'll be to defund it, like they just did for payroll tax.
    Were talking about the same people who, having to choose between letting the bush tax cuts expire, or rolling back social security retirement age to 67 (which implies further robbing the social security fund to fund the federal budget) overwhelmingly opted to raise the reitirement age. Those people care about serious initiatives?

    Seruko on
    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    For one, who said meaningful? For two, why do you believe that healthcare is different from quite literally every other initiative that Congress undertakes?

    tea-1.jpg
  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    For one, who said meaningful? For two, why do you believe that healthcare is different from quite literally every other initiative that Congress undertakes?

    I don't believe that it is any different. Which is why I think those people not currently receiving socialized health care in the US can look forward to $25,000 Van Rides and $200,000 Dollars for a weekend in a hospital bed in 2014. Which takes us back to house on fire, fire getting worse territory.

    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Sticks wrote: »
    I don't know how common it is for a doctor to "suddenly" be making 200k. Even if it does happen, that is not a very high priority for tax reformation. After loan payments/mortgage/whatever else, I doubt you will be struggling to make ends meet on that kind of money.

    Yeah, I've known doctors who had been practicing for 20 years that still had student loan payments.

    Every part of the process in the American healthcare system is broken.

    I just wonder if they are managing their money properly. The average medical school debt is $155k + average undergrad debt of $23k.

    Then you have a residency + fellowship for 3-6+ years where you make 50k a year. Then after that the median income for a family doctor is $137k. If you spent your money wisely I would hope that a GP could pay off their debt in 5-10 years. (If anyone is wondering the median medical malpractice for a GP is $12.5k a year.)

    Either way it would be nice if we could make that system of education cheaper, more residency positions, and have more doctors. Then again this might bring down the cost of health care and reduce the salary that doctors would get paid and they wouldn't like that.

    CommunistCow on
    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote:
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    For one, who said meaningful? For two, why do you believe that healthcare is different from quite literally every other initiative that Congress undertakes?

    I don't believe that it is any different. Which is why I think those people not currently receiving socialized health care in the US can look forward to $25,000 Van Rides and $200,000 Dollars for a weekend in a hospital bed in 2014. Which takes us back to house on fire, fire getting worse territory.


    Providing that these ambulance ride numbers aren't pulled from thin air, I do know that the general practice with the charge for ambulance rides is a lot like what goes on in ERs.

    Hospital/City (if its a municipal service) "charges" X for an ambulance ride.

    X is some ridiculously overpriced number.

    Medicaid/Medicare/private insurance never actually pay X, just some agreed upon amount that is much more reasonable.

    The uninsured sucker gets sent a bill he can and probably never will realistically pay, some places end up forgiving them (i.e. won't send them to collections).

    The loss gets written off for tax purposes.

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    For one, who said meaningful? For two, why do you believe that healthcare is different from quite literally every other initiative that Congress undertakes?

    I don't believe that it is any different. Which is why I think those people not currently receiving socialized health care in the US can look forward to $25,000 Van Rides and $200,000 Dollars for a weekend in a hospital bed in 2014. Which takes us back to house on fire, fire getting worse territory.

    And yet you believe that Congress is going to abdicate it's time honored tradition of poking things because...?

    tea-1.jpg
  • TheOtherHorsemanTheOtherHorseman Registered User regular
    Then the solution is to fund more residence programs, or more funding to the existing ones. Greater medical school capacity is still not sounding like a bad thing, merely half of the solution rather than the solution in itself.

    Greater med school capacity isn't a bad thing until it outstrips the number of residency positions available. Greater capacity at both levels equals out to be a good thing. Greater residency capacity on its own would be a good thing if you're cool with brain draining the rest of the world. That is sort of America's schtick, though.

    But, yeah, you've hit on basically what I'd like to be an executive branch-championed solution in the upcoming term. Or ever.
    Thanatos wrote:
    We need to encourage fewer doctors, and more nurses and PAs.

    You don't need to go to school for ten years and then do an internship/residency to be able to look at my ear and say "this is an ear infection."

    Yes and no. One of the issues with this is that a big problem with healthcare is maldistribution (focusing on urban centers and the coasts), and NP's/PA's are as susceptible to the temptations that those areas offer as anyone else is. There is an argument to be made that if laws were drafted up offering more autonomy to midlevels, tons wouldn't ultimately change in terms of availability in needy areas.

    Also, while it doesn't take a lot of training to point at an animal and call it a horse, that's little comfort to someone who needed their zebra or zorse identified. Increased reliance on midlevels relies on training and ability to know exactly when to refer up the chain, and/or direct supervision. It can help, but it doesn't replace the need for MD/DO folks.


  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote:
    Thanatos wrote:
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    For one, who said meaningful? For two, why do you believe that healthcare is different from quite literally every other initiative that Congress undertakes?

    I don't believe that it is any different. Which is why I think those people not currently receiving socialized health care in the US can look forward to $25,000 Van Rides and $200,000 Dollars for a weekend in a hospital bed in 2014. Which takes us back to house on fire, fire getting worse territory.


    Providing that these ambulance ride numbers aren't pulled from thin air, I do know that the general practice with the charge for ambulance rides is a lot like what goes on in ERs.

    Hospital/City (if its a municipal service) "charges" X for an ambulance ride.

    X is some ridiculously overpriced number.

    Medicaid/Medicare/private insurance never actually pay X, just some agreed upon amount that is much more reasonable.

    The uninsured sucker gets sent a bill he can and probably never will realistically pay, some places end up forgiving them (i.e. won't send them to collections).

    The loss gets written off for tax purposes.

    And the honest citizen who is already on a debt collectors book and an easy target for the hospital gets raked over the coals for the illegitimate price. Hurrah, everybody loses! Double loss for the poor and the government!

    Your puny weapons are useless against me
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote:
    We need to encourage fewer doctors, and more nurses and PAs.

    You don't need to go to school for ten years and then do an internship/residency to be able to look at my ear and say "this is an ear infection."
    Yes and no. One of the issues with this is that a big problem with healthcare is maldistribution (focusing on urban centers and the coasts), and NP's/PA's are as susceptible to the temptations that those areas offer as anyone else is. There is an argument to be made that if laws were drafted up offering more autonomy to midlevels, tons wouldn't ultimately change in terms of availability in needy areas.

    Also, while it doesn't take a lot of training to point at an animal and call it a horse, that's little comfort to someone who needed their zebra or zorse identified. Increased reliance on midlevels relies on training and ability to know exactly when to refer up the chain, and/or direct supervision. It can help, but it doesn't replace the need for MD/DO folks.
    Ideally, in ten or twenty years, most GPs shouldn't need to put on pants most days in order to do their job; they should be sitting in their home office, and when a PA or a nurse has something that they need a consult on, they just videoconference in to the doctor, who then takes a look.

    There really is no way to make sure every podunk village has a neurologist.

  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    For one, who said meaningful? For two, why do you believe that healthcare is different from quite literally every other initiative that Congress undertakes?

    I don't believe that it is any different. Which is why I think those people not currently receiving socialized health care in the US can look forward to $25,000 Van Rides and $200,000 Dollars for a weekend in a hospital bed in 2014. Which takes us back to house on fire, fire getting worse territory.

    And yet you believe that Congress is going to abdicate it's time honored tradition of poking things because...?

    I dont follow you. I do believe Congress will take out the funding for the few small good programs that help the middle class and use that money to lower the tax rate on people who make 250,000 dollars a year or more.
    RedTide wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote:
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    For one, who said meaningful? For two, why do you believe that healthcare is different from quite literally every other initiative that Congress undertakes?

    I don't believe that it is any different. Which is why I think those people not currently receiving socialized health care in the US can look forward to $25,000 Van Rides and $200,000 Dollars for a weekend in a hospital bed in 2014. Which takes us back to house on fire, fire getting worse territory.


    Providing that these ambulance ride numbers aren't pulled from thin air, I do know that the general practice with the charge for ambulance rides is a lot like what goes on in ERs.

    Hospital/City (if its a municipal service) "charges" X for an ambulance ride.

    X is some ridiculously overpriced number.

    Medicaid/Medicare/private insurance never actually pay X, just some agreed upon amount that is much more reasonable.

    The uninsured sucker gets sent a bill he can and probably never will realistically pay, some places end up forgiving them (i.e. won't send them to collections).

    The loss gets written off for tax purposes.

    EDIT: Please forgive my earlier response. My mother died penniless after ruinously expensive health care costs for being one of the suckers you mention. She had pretty good insurance too. I got upset, and I apologize.

    Essentially what I take you to be saying is this. There is no relationship between the cost basis and the consumer price of healthcare. Furthermore one ought to treat the bill one receives in the same manner one treats a random man in mexico trying to sell you a sombrero, except you've just had heart surgery and are on Oxycontin or whatever.

    For the sake of argument sure, that systems is obviously broken. The relevance to this thread is that Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act does nothing to solve that problem. All of the collective bargaining, power in numbers, consumer protections were stripped out to make the act palatable for the propertied class, except for the exchanges.... but there's no evidence to suggest that insurance exchanges will have any effect on health care prices.

    Which brings us back to house on fire, who cares territory.

    Seruko on
    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • Marty81Marty81 Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote:
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    moniker wrote: »
    Seruko wrote:
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.

    I'm pretty much expecting every next Congress to pass legislation that tweaks health care in one way or another. I doubt there'll be anything so massively comprehensive as the ACA anytime soon, but yes Health Care Reform II is going to be on the calendar next session.

    Also, Lieberman won't be in the Senate after this term, FYI.

    Like I said, magical fairytale realm.
    But it's nice to hear Liberman is out.
    Either way, you really think meaningful provider reform is going to happen?

    For one, who said meaningful? For two, why do you believe that healthcare is different from quite literally every other initiative that Congress undertakes?

    I don't believe that it is any different. Which is why I think those people not currently receiving socialized health care in the US can look forward to $25,000 Van Rides and $200,000 Dollars for a weekend in a hospital bed in 2014. Which takes us back to house on fire, fire getting worse territory.


    Providing that these ambulance ride numbers aren't pulled from thin air, I do know that the general practice with the charge for ambulance rides is a lot like what goes on in ERs.

    Hospital/City (if its a municipal service) "charges" X for an ambulance ride.

    X is some ridiculously overpriced number.

    Medicaid/Medicare/private insurance never actually pay X, just some agreed upon amount that is much more reasonable.

    The uninsured sucker gets sent a bill he can and probably never will realistically pay, some places end up forgiving them (i.e. won't send them to collections).

    The loss gets written off for tax purposes.

    Right, which is how they still make a profit off of people who won't/can't pay.

  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Seruko wrote: »
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.
    ---
    the only way to pay for the boomer generations health care costs is going to be to nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure the bills dont catch up with the rest of us.

    Well if you want that, then you need to go find Ben Nelson and the other conservative "Democrats" and kick them in the balls. In the world of political reality, this was the best thing that was going to pass. Maybe in 15-20 years we can push it further.

  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.
    ---
    the only way to pay for the boomer generations health care costs is going to be to nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure the bills dont catch up with the rest of us.

    Well if you want that, then you need to go find Ben Nelson and the other conservative "Democrats" and kick them in the balls. In the world of political reality, this was the best thing that was going to pass. Maybe in 15-20 years we can push it further.

    The system doesn't work and is breaking down. There will be no meaningful reform. The reform the Obama proposed and past is simply a windfall give away to large insurance companies. Doing nothing to address the underlying problem -- the price of health care. The reform was patched together from heritage foundation writing over the past 10 years. Obama campaigned AGAINST the kind of reform to health care he proposed and ultimately past. But this board is largely a pro-democrat echo chamber, so it doesn't matter.

    EDIT: The political argument just doesn't hold water. Much like the Bush tax cuts, meaningful reform could have been past by reconciliation.
    Either the President did not want real meaningful reform, or was too incompetent to get it past. Neither speak well for him.

    Seruko on
    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • TheCanManTheCanMan Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Seruko wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.
    ---
    the only way to pay for the boomer generations health care costs is going to be to nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure the bills dont catch up with the rest of us.

    Well if you want that, then you need to go find Ben Nelson and the other conservative "Democrats" and kick them in the balls. In the world of political reality, this was the best thing that was going to pass. Maybe in 15-20 years we can push it further.

    The system doesn't work and is breaking down. There will be no meaningful reform. The reform the Obama proposed and past is simply a windfall give away to large insurance companies. Doing nothing to address the underlying problem -- the price of health care. The reform was patched together from heritage foundation writing over the past 10 years. Obama campaigned AGAINST the kind of reform to health care he proposed and ultimately past. But this board is largely a pro-democrat echo chamber, so it doesn't matter.

    I think the hope is that when the excuse for such insane pricing is removed (i.e. having to make up the difference for the uninsured), it'll be harder to justify charging 5-figures for an ambulance ride. So they'll either be forced to lower the prices or be shamed into it. Which is why going after coverage before cost made more sense. Addressing cost without addressing coverage would just mean telling heathcare providers to suck it up and do more with less.

    ps
    People seem to be being very civil while trying to reasonably address your concerns. So fuck off with the dismissive "echo chamber" horseshit.

    TheCanMan on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Bondage Discipline Spider-Man Registered User regular
    Seruko wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.
    ---
    the only way to pay for the boomer generations health care costs is going to be to nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure the bills dont catch up with the rest of us.

    Well if you want that, then you need to go find Ben Nelson and the other conservative "Democrats" and kick them in the balls. In the world of political reality, this was the best thing that was going to pass. Maybe in 15-20 years we can push it further.

    The system doesn't work and is breaking down. There will be no meaningful reform. The reform the Obama proposed and past is simply a windfall give away to large insurance companies. Doing nothing to address the underlying problem -- the price of health care. The reform was patched together from heritage foundation writing over the past 10 years. Obama campaigned AGAINST the kind of reform to health care he proposed and ultimately past. But this board is largely a pro-democrat echo chamber, so it doesn't matter.

    We're pretty aware that the ACA is very similar to what Nixon proposed. The problem is that it's apparently too Liberal to get any GOP cooperation.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    ps
    People seem to be being very civil while trying to reasonably address your concerns. So fuck off with the dismissive "echo chamber" horseshit.

    Very Civil....
    Fencingsax wrote: »

    We're pretty aware that the ACA is very similar to what Nixon proposed. The problem is that it's apparently too Liberal to get any GOP cooperation.

    The healthcare bill past the senate without any GOP support. Every GOP member voted against it.

    Seruko on
    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    s7apster wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    One had a heart attack and required a visit to the cath lab and eventual bypass surgery. His bill was 67,000$ just from the hospital, this does not include separate bills for surgeons fees and anesthesia. The ambulance ride was 17,000$.
    This is everything that is wrong with health care in the US. Meaningful healthcare reform would change this. It may be nice that your brother/sister/friend/acquaintance can now get insured to pay for their 10 million dollar lupus treatment. That's nice, but it's not the problem. The problem is that a 10 min ride in a van with 3 people who lack advanced degrees costs 17000 Dollars, EDIT and that treating Lupus cost 10 million dollars.

    Edit: This problem is only getting worse, rising by a statistically significant amount above inflation every year.
    Double Super Cherry on Top Edit.
    You Live on a house that is on fire. There are people outside in the cold. Suggesting that ones first priority is to get everyone who is outside the house inside because "Then they'll be warm" does not seem that sensible. This is the essence of Obama Care.

    Well our other option was watching the people outside freeze to death while the rest of us suffocated. At least this way they get to be warm for a little bit.
    He's right. The affordable care act is plain and simple insurance reform. We need provider reform if we want to tackle the increase in costs that will have drastic implications, most notably for the health of medicare given the aging population to boot, but obviously across the whole society. Cost reform should have come first.

    This is the reason former OMB director Peter Orszag left the administration. Obama brought him on telling him they would use Columbia's finding's about cost v. results variation to make drastic change on that front, and then didn't.

    But now there will be no provider reform.
    Assume a magical fairy tale realm where Obama wins re-election, there's a substantive democratic takeover of the house (like say cira 2008) and 58 democratic senators +liberman and +sanders. Does anyone see them passing Health Care reform II: son of obama care strikes back?

    If there had been provider reform without insurance reform, life would have sucked for the very very poor, but everyone else would be okay because they could now afford to pay for health care. But when a couple of nights in a hospital costs 6 figures, no one can afford it. Not me, not you, not my rich uncle, not insurance companies, which is why they were doing everything in their power to not pay. Pro-tip if you get really sick and you're rich? you take a vacation to London. It is much cheaper, and the theaters are nicer.
    ---
    the only way to pay for the boomer generations health care costs is going to be to nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure the bills dont catch up with the rest of us.

    Well if you want that, then you need to go find Ben Nelson and the other conservative "Democrats" and kick them in the balls. In the world of political reality, this was the best thing that was going to pass. Maybe in 15-20 years we can push it further.

    The system doesn't work and is breaking down. There will be no meaningful reform. The reform the Obama proposed and past is simply a windfall give away to large insurance companies. Doing nothing to address the underlying problem -- the price of health care. The reform was patched together from heritage foundation writing over the past 10 years. Obama campaigned AGAINST the kind of reform to health care he proposed and ultimately past. But this board is largely a pro-democrat echo chamber, so it doesn't matter.

    We're pretty aware that the ACA is very similar to what Nixon proposed. The problem is that it's apparently too Liberal to get any GOP cooperation.

    Nixon is a liberal compared to the current GOP.

  • TheCanManTheCanMan Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Seruko wrote: »
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    ps
    People seem to be being very civil while trying to reasonably address your concerns. So fuck off with the dismissive "echo chamber" horseshit.

    Very Civil....

    Oh good, more dismissive horseshit. Thanks. You'll note that the part of my post you decided to omit, the part that was trying to address your concerns, was in fact very civil.

    TheCanMan on
  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    ps
    People seem to be being very civil while trying to reasonably address your concerns. So fuck off with the dismissive "echo chamber" horseshit.

    Very Civil....



    Oh good, more dismissive horseshit. Thanks. You'll note that the part of my post you decided to omit, the part that was trying to address your concerns, was in fact very civil.

    Yes You're very civil except when you're not. The Irony. It Burns

    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • TheCanManTheCanMan Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Seruko wrote: »
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    ps
    People seem to be being very civil while trying to reasonably address your concerns. So fuck off with the dismissive "echo chamber" horseshit.

    Very Civil....



    Oh good, more dismissive horseshit. Thanks. You'll note that the part of my post you decided to omit, the part that was trying to address your concerns, was in fact very civil.

    Yes You're very civil except when you're not. The Irony. It Burns

    You're right, I'm very civil when addressing reasonable concerns and comments. Not so much towards dismissive horseshit. You got me. :oops:

    TheCanMan on
  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    ps
    People seem to be being very civil while trying to reasonably address your concerns. So fuck off with the dismissive "echo chamber" horseshit.

    Very Civil....



    Oh good, more dismissive horseshit. Thanks. You'll note that the part of my post you decided to omit, the part that was trying to address your concerns, was in fact very civil.

    Yes You're very civil except when you're not. The Irony. It Burns

    You're right, I'm very civil when addressing reasonable concerns and comments. Not so much towards dismissive horseshit. You got me. :oops:

    You sir, are a goose. Unable to understand why your own statements are self referentially incoherent. Good Day.

    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    Seruko, you've been both far goosier and far more incoherent in both this and other threads.

  • TheCanManTheCanMan Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Seruko wrote: »
    You sir, are a goose. Unable to understand why your own statements are self referentially incoherent. Good Day.

    Reasonable concerns and comments followed by the civil response it deserves:
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    The system doesn't work and is breaking down. There will be no meaningful reform. The reform the Obama proposed and past is simply a windfall give away to large insurance companies. Doing nothing to address the underlying problem -- the price of health care. The reform was patched together from heritage foundation writing over the past 10 years. Obama campaigned AGAINST the kind of reform to health care he proposed and ultimately past.
    I think the hope is that when the excuse for such insane pricing is removed (i.e. having to make up the difference for the uninsured), it'll be harder to justify charging 5-figures for an ambulance ride. So they'll either be forced to lower the prices or be shamed into it. Which is why going after coverage before cost made more sense. Addressing cost without addressing coverage would just mean telling heathcare providers to suck it up and do more with less.

    Dismissive horseshit followed by the response it deserves:
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    Seruko wrote: »
    But this board is largely a pro-democrat echo chamber, so it doesn't matter.
    People seem to be being very civil while trying to reasonably address your concerns. So fuck off with the dismissive "echo chamber" horseshit.

    You're right, I do fail to see how that's an incoherent response.

    TheCanMan on
  • SerukoSeruko Ferocious Kitten of The Farthest NorthRegistered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Seruko, you've been both far goosier and far more incoherent in both this and other threads.

    Non-reforming insurance reform. The only reform possible for a generation which fails to address the problems in health care out comes, or health care prices is a bad deal.
    The excuses for this is "but GOP obstructionism," the bad deal mentioned above past with zero GOP support and 100% GOP opposition. So why no meaningful refrom?
    Second excuse "but Democratic obstructionism," if the titular head of a political party cannot rally his own troops to pass his own legislation, then he is a bad leader.
    If the titular head of a political party does not want to pass legislation that he campaigned for, and wants instead to pass legislation that he campaigned against (which is what happened), then he is acting in bad faith. The office of the president is one in which we expect a good leader acting in good faith.

    Please forgive me If I've been unclear about that argument.

    I have other arguments which are controversial here, but less so in other more reasonable environments. Obama's foreign policy is the natural continuation of Bushes foreign policy, Obama's Economic policy is very similar to Bush's economic policy within a significant digit, not addressing serious economic issues like the weakness of the SEC, meaningful bank reform, continuing trickle down vs bottom up security of the housing sector, the boomers retiring (and the obvious predictable effects on Medicare and social security) to name only a few.

    Why do I focus on those issues? Because those are the issues are largely the issues that the Federal Government, and thus the president as it's executive head, have to deal with. Why the majority of the people on these boards think DOMA and DADT are the key issues of the day frankly amazes me. They're not even very important as social issues go. There are more African Americans and Latinos who will go to jail because of the drug war than there are homosexuals in the unites states, a situation which has no end in sight, now that's a social issue. A social issue not being addressed by the Obama administration, which wasn't addressed by the Bush administration, and pretty clearly more important.

    But it's farm more important here, for some to argue to the death that Obama is nothing like Bush, because apparently Bush was very stupid and Obama is very smart.
    Tribal non-sense.

    Seruko on
    "How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
    "You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
    "In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
    "In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
    I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    "'The perfect' should not be the enemy of 'the good'."

    Forar on
    sigtwo.png
  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Seruko wrote: »
    Seruko, you've been both far goosier and far more incoherent in both this and other threads.

    Non-reforming insurance reform. The only reform possible for a generation which fails to address the problems in health care out comes, or health care prices is a bad deal.
    The excuses for this is "but GOP obstructionism," the bad deal mentioned above past with zero GOP support and 100% GOP opposition. So why no meaningful refrom?
    Second excuse "but Democratic obstructionism," if the titular head of a political party cannot rally his own troops to pass his own legislation, then he is a bad leader.
    If the titular head of a political party does not want to pass legislation that he campaigned for, and wants instead to pass legislation that he campaigned against, then he is acting in bad faith. The office of the president is one in which we expect a good leader acting in good faith.

    Please forgive me If I've been unclear about that argument.

    How about this: you craft a reality where you can get blue-dog Democrats in the Senate from Arkansas and Nebraska to get on board with any kind of public healthcare reform (keep in mind that Blanche Lincoln went on to lose her re-election campaign by 21 points despite voting against ACA) and I'll get you one where we have a better healthcare reform.

    Dismissing "Democratic obstructionism" and expecting Obama to rule over the Democratic party with an iron fist is simply ignoring reality.

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Rising oil prices is the reason I will drive my shitty 1997 Honda Accord EX SE until it blows up. I will pay off my tuition as hard and as fast as possible when I start active duty, and save my moneys for the most fuel efficient model car I can find, waiting as long as possible until the auto industry stops pussyfooting around with this hybrid nonsense and moves on to complete oil independency. I want to be Economy Proof and Life Proof.*

    *No that'll never happen. And my plan is delusional.

    Cantido on
    steam_sig.png
  • TheCanManTheCanMan Registered User regular
    Seruko wrote: »
    Seruko, you've been both far goosier and far more incoherent in both this and other threads.

    Non-reforming insurance reform. The only reform possible for a generation which fails to address the problems in health care out comes, or health care prices is a bad deal.
    The excuses for this is "but GOP obstructionism," the bad deal mentioned above past with zero GOP support and 100% GOP opposition. So why no meaningful refrom?
    Second excuse "but Democratic obstructionism," if the titular head of a political party cannot rally his own troops to pass his own legislation, then he is a bad leader.
    If the titular head of a political party does not want to pass legislation that he campaigned for, and wants instead to pass legislation that he campaigned against (which is what happened), then he is acting in bad faith. The office of the president is one in which we expect a good leader acting in good faith.

    Please forgive me If I've been unclear about that argument.
    TheCanMan wrote: »
    I think the hope is that when the excuse for such insane pricing is removed (i.e. having to make up the difference for the uninsured), it'll be harder to justify charging 5-figures for an ambulance ride. So they'll either be forced to lower the prices or be shamed into it. Which is why going after coverage before cost made more sense. Addressing cost without addressing coverage would just mean telling heathcare providers to suck it up and do more with less.

This discussion has been closed.