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Arizona: College is only for the rich and athletes
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No, all I am saying is that everyone cannot be let in. Those with means should go and those with brains should be adopted into the system and given a free ride. The rest should go into more professions that are fit for them.
The number of students who "wing it" and graduate anyway is probably so low as to be a non-issue. And if it isn't that's a bigger problem than just "lazy poor kids".
But there really is very little point debating with you on this, because your beloved serfdom universe isn't something I'm too willing to give much thought to.
I haven't seen anything where it's narrowed. The bill text that was linked earlier in the thread just said "athletic scholarships" and the like. So if the Arizona Bowling Team has full ride scholarships, I wasted my undergrad years.
If you want college students to take their educations more seriously you'll have to do it culturally somehow, not through simply adding to the pricetag.
--LeVar Burton
Ah, so they don't mean Scholar-Athletes, they mean "Athletes that are required to maintain a 2.0 so they can play"-
minor leaguersScholars.That is just a blatant pandering it's annoying.
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I don't want to be classist, but I don't think that there are many poor students who commit to college in the first place and then just drop out and be bitches because to get in, they would've had to pound the books in high school.
I did, more or less.
--LeVar Burton
Its not about who wing it or not, its about students graduating without extreme debt with little to poor workplace opportunities.
The idea TNC is advocating is really no different than the idea of allowing the smartest people into college with full rides and paying for it by admitting other people who are willing to pay full price that I proposed (and people seemed comfortable with) earlier in the thread.
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
...which is a good reason to make university cheaper, not more expensive.
Countries with free post-secondary education tend to do pretty well. It's not like there's a glut of factory worker jobs needing to be filled in the US right now.
How about we just tax the rich people and use that to let everyone go to college instead?
You may have missed the frankly disturbing section where he extols a system of educational patronage where poor smart kids bargain to be adopted in order to gain funding
So everyone pays tuition. Based on their income.
Something tells me rich folks would be all for subsidized education in an instant.
We're talking 18th century attitudes here.
As I pointed out earlier, he won't back any form of universal 'brightest' competitions because he wants those who are rich but not bright to nonetheless get a free pass. This is outright classism of a form we usually do not see in the modern West, to say the least.
I find no problem with this system. If your smart and know that you are, then its normal for you to find out the best for yourself and do whatever it takes to get in.
Because "lazy rich people" can pay without debt while the "mythical lazy poor person" graduates with poor to none workplacements and a below than average GPA,
What are you, a communist? Taxing job creators will only make them move to Turbakistan and fund weapons of mass destruction and flatten the American dream! DO YOU HATE LIBERTY!?
Am I doin it rite
Education is one of the ways to actually break out of the cycle of poverty that traps kids into being poor. What you're saying is "Born poor? Fuck off" and if that's what you actually believe then I think we're done here.
So college should only be for those who pay completely up front, or those who're willing to debase themselves enough so they can pay completely up front?
I just want to be clear because that sounds, at face value, absolutely terrible. I can't be reading that right.
No what I said and advocate if your smart there will be methods to get into University. Others will just have to work within their means but still get an education. Become janitors, carpenters and other professions that might be lacking.
and there's no one who goes to college to prepare for a career in jobs that aren't 'academia'? right...
and to echo some of the sentiments in the 'civility in discourse thread', these ideas you are espousing deserve no respect. They are fucking stupid. Really, only rich people or those who are ignorant of what these ideas would actually entail would ever agree with you.
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"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
No, read the "as well as those". Not everyone goes into academia, they go for business degrees with the right connections to carry out their own family business or become the CEO because they have the connections.
none of those professions is lacking right now.
It's not like we have some critical shortage of janitors.
To further echo some sentiments from the civility thread, you have just succeeded in making yourself look like the unreasonable, closed minded person in this discussion.
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
What penalty do you imagine you could impose for non-performance of said civil service bond that you can't impose for a student loan debt to the state already?
Why is everything 'connections' with you? Why do you object to equality of opportunity?
I gave those as an example.
No education ever. Simple as that. Of course, that would be my reasoning if I supported his ideas.
That idea is so much more progressive than your earlier position that I'm pretty sure I saw it proposed on an episode of West Wing. I don't mean that to sound critical; I'm just trying to acknowledge that you're obviously trying to approach this with an open mind.
I would generally be down with that on a philosophical level. I think there would probably be some implementation hurdles which may or may not be surmountable; I don't know if we have enough civil service jobs to go around for everyone who accepts financial aid. I don't know what impact that would have on people who wanted to try and get a civil service job who were ineligible for financial aid initially. The biggest hurdle I see, though, is that states can barely afford to offer the financial aid in the first place; I'm not sure where they'll find the money to pay all of those graduates even the most basic cost-of-living wage while they're putting in their service.
SKFM, I consider myself a fairly civil sort of fellow, but are you honestly trying to defend the bullshit, paternalistic, dark age serfdom society that The Nomadic Circle is peddling?
Really?
It's not just janitors. Any kind of job that doesn't require higher education will have a ton of applicants right now (at least in the US). We have far more people with less-than-a-college-education than we can employ. The only jobs that still have a shortage of workers are in specific niche technical fields and nursing. Not to mention, there's plenty of college grads who would be quite happy to get a blue-collar job these days.
Your idea that we'll somehow have a shortage of labor if we send too many people to college is just totally wrong.
Most governments have no use for an untrained high school graduate; they would want them to be educated first prior to serving their bond.
...This doesn't seem like a bad idea exactly. Kind of the G.I. bill, but in reverse order?
Except that system disproportionately rewards people with hustle and people skills. Which is fine, except I don't give a shit if the guy that engineered my car's engine has people skills. I just want the guy who's best at math and science. The idea with school should be to encourage and reward most the people with the skills they'll actually need in their career when they get out.
--LeVar Burton
I believe you mean you gave those as examples.
But then you're able to pay for yourself to go to college, so surely you know better than me. I am a lowly poor after all.
And being a ESOL student shouldn't matter, not based on your prescription.
You would have the equivalent of the "dishonorable discharge" which can make someone effectively unemployable.
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
There are. Manual labor, private army for life, ditch diggers [cause of the youtube clip} and other professions that require untrained high school graduates.
Being dishonorably discharged makes someone effectively unemployable because it isn't just assigned willy-nilly for things unrelated to your work performance, like defaulting on your student loans/bonds. You may observe that having a horrible credit rating today doesn't impinge on your career, at least directly. So why would private-sector employers take this into account? Are you proposing to penalize employers if they dare to employ someone who failed to serve their bond?
Ha! Funny. I'm not an ESL student if that's what your wondering. This is a forum, not an academia center for excellence in English writing. I'm not going to go all "grammatically" correct for people that have no bearing on my education.