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[WIN8] Search Energy Star, learn about windows in windows using Windows.

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Posts

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    SirToasty wrote: »
    Can I change to the classic start menu? I seem to remember hearing that you could do it.

    You couldn't in the developer preview, and if you can in the community preview, I haven't figured out how. Part of this is the "desktop as an app" situation.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • SirToastySirToasty Registered User regular
    I feel like if they had done away with the desktop entirely and incorporated everything into Metro I would like it a lot better. Right now, the split is killing me. And the apps seem fairly useless considering I already do all of these things in my browser or in a program pinned to my taskbar.

  • centraldogmacentraldogma Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    Did you really just say that fundamentally bad design decisions shouldn't get in the way of usability? Or that design issues were "just design issues"? I...I'm not even sure what to say to that. Design issues underpin the fundamental nature of what Windows 8 is. If it has fundamental design flaws (which it does), it absolutely effects the usability of the system.

    I code UI's for a living, and if I design a bad UI, it effects every thing my users do.

    Simply being able to "get things done" is not usability. I can "get things done" with a DOS prompt, that does not make it a fundamentally good usability experience for most tasks.

    I haven't had enough time with it to speak about that. I don't anticipate that high level design decisions like "desktop as an app" and the way metro and the desktop interact will impact my day to day use of the operating system.

    Things like poor layout, that can absolutely impact productivity. But, like I said, I haven’t had enough hands on time with it because it’s not my main desktop and I won’t really be able to speak on that until it is.
    SirToasty wrote: »
    Can I change to the classic start menu? I seem to remember hearing that you could do it.

    You can get it back using a 3rd part program called Vistart. It's riddled with adware, so be careful when installing.

    centraldogma on
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  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    Do you guys end up outside of the Desktop for anything other than searching on non-touch computers?

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  • floobiefloobie Registered User regular
    For whatever reason, I saw fit to post my opinions of Windows 8 in the Mac thread instead. So, I'll go ahead and throw them in here as well (copied and pasted with a few changes):

    I installed the consumer preview in Virtualbox on my 15" Macbook Pro within OS X Lion. Worked quite well.

    IMO, Metro is indeed very much (and very well) designed for tablets, but quite a hinderance when used with a mouse and keyboard. The multitasking that appears to make a lot of sense for tablet use feels clunky and limiting when using a mouse and keyboard. And, the desktop view in it feels sort of gimped to me compared to Windows 7. Of particular concern is running Metro and classic apps side by side. It feels like a very disjointed experience. The Metro apps are stored in a sidebar that pops up from the left when you move the cursor to the upper left hand corner, while the classic apps show up in the task bar. The only way I could find to view a Metro app on the desktop was to split screen the Metro app and the desktop "app" itself... it made it pretty difficult (well, impossible) to arrange my workspace how I want it. I'm basically stuck with a sidebar of a condensed Metro app, or a side bar of the desktop app. This will become even more of a problem as more apps convert to Metro. If you can't run more than two Metro apps side by side, that could severely impact how efficiently many people use their computers.

    I really think this would be better if the Metro and classic interfaces were separate operating systems fully optimized for their separate purposes. When put together, it feels like each interface compromises the other. I guess it feels like desktop interfaces have sort of plateaued lately... but I get the impression that's because they're becoming pretty well optimized for the input methods they're designed for. It feels like Microsoft is intending to actually sacrifice the desktop OS over the next few years in favour of a tablet OS, instead of having the two co-exist.

    On the more positive end of things, I do think Metro looks very nice, and I'm fairly convinced it will work very well on a tablet. The installation process was very easy and fast, and even within Virtualbox, everything felt nice and snappy.

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    So, I'm having an odd issue where some metro apps are displaying their names in some Asian language, not in English.

    (spoilered, because this is a full screen shot)
    Spoiler:

    The yellow boxes are added to emphasize the exact spots.

    This is occuring ONLY under my personal login (tied to my Live account); the administrator login displays everything just fine in English.

    Anyone have any idea what I can do to fix this? I've already played around in the language settings, and even removed all languages other than English.



    If it matters, I'm running the consumer preview using Parallels 7 on a MacBook Pro. I installed it over a copy of Windows 7 that I'd previously been using (but all in English.) I have used the same Live account on my Xbox, my Zune, and my WP7 device previously (all in English.)

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  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Different language, but it looks like the same apps: could this be related?

    After a few days of running Win8 on a few devices, I'm mostly enjoying it. Running a 22" monitor off of a tablet is like having a second touch-controls panel for your computer. I spend most of my time in Desktop while docked, with the occasional swipe (as the tablet is about three inches from my mouse). It's faster to restart or bring up Settings with a quick swipe. Maybe the Wii U is on to something.

    On a non-touch device, I don't miss the Start menu in the least. I also don't see the new Start screen for more than about 20 seconds in a given day... which also means I just don't use the apps. One click from a browser and I'm in my webmail. Messenger and Pidgin are already open and each window a swipe/click away. My personal Calendar is in webmail. It makes sense where power users have two or three built in apps they never see, use, and will just uninstall. It triggers the "bloat" reaction.

    Conversely, I plan on putting my tablet in front of my mom with a mouse very soon. I suspect that she'll prefer it, as she uses everything by rote memorization; a grid of ten consistent tiles will work better for *everything* she does on a computer (than the grid of 12 icons, because a couple of rogue toolbars installed desktop links).

    I think the first and last scenarios are where Win8 will clean up. Business, home, and pro hybrid tablet/desktop usage, and moms (and other users terrified of any complexity or options in computing).

    Morskittar on
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  • OakeyOakey UKRegistered User regular
    You're the dude with the Slate? That looks awesome, but at £850 over here for the 64Gb version I just can't justify it. That's insane money!

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  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    I think there's a few of us on the thread. But yeah, that's another downside to Win8. The wife is still making me pay for pursuing my tech lust in an expensive way.

    Between work and home I've been using the thing about 9 hours a day, so feel justified in the cost. Using the same device as a desktop at work and home (runs Napoleon: Total War beautifully) and as a lightweight tablet for taking notes at work or browsing the web at home is pretty awesome. I don't see much reason to continue having a desktop or other laptops (outside a few edge scenarios, like some remote stuff that's not enabled yet for work).

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  • OakeyOakey UKRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    It just seems an insane amount of money. I assume it has some edge over the ipad to carry such a premium? Otherwise how do they stop people just buying the cheaper ipad? It looks like a fabulous bit of kit but when I think what £850 could buy me I just don't think I could justify it. How does it output to the 22" monitor? HDMI?

    ETA: Correction, they're £1000 over here! (not including the keyboard at £100 either by the look of it?)

    Oakey on
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  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Oh, it's nothing like an iPad. It's a full computer shoved into the form factor with capacitive screen. I'd never recommend it for my non-tech family or casual users; it's only got about 5-6 hours of battery life and has a fan.

    On the flipside, it has HDMI out (direct or via dock) and modern laptop specs and a built-in digitizer, so I can use the same device for PC gaming while in the dock, iPad-like web browsing, many instances of Excel with ridiculous data connections, all of my line-of-business programs for work, handwritten notes with the stylus - other regular PC stuff - with no concessions for power.

    It's a professional and/or tech enthusiast device. Very different intent than an iPad or Android tablet. I am curious to see how Win8 is on equivalent devices to those. Unpin and don't bother with the Desktop ever, and it should be a fairly similar experience.

    Morskittar on
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  • ApostateApostate Registered User regular
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Oh, it's nothing like an iPad. It's a full computer shoved into the form factor with capacitive screen. I'd never recommend it for my non-tech family or casual users; it's only got about 5-6 hours of battery life and has a fan.

    On the flipside, it has HDMI out (direct or via dock) and modern laptop specs and a built-in digitizer, so I can use the same device for PC gaming while in the dock, iPad-like web browsing, many instances of Excel with ridiculous data connections, all of my line-of-business programs for work, handwritten notes with the stylus - other regular PC stuff - with no concessions for power.

    It's a professional and/or tech enthusiast device. Very different intent than an iPad or Android tablet. I am curious to see how Win8 is on equivalent devices to those. Unpin and don't bother with the Desktop ever, and it should be a fairly similar experience.

    Yeah I would reiterate what you said about the slate 7. It's very much a DIY kind of thing. It's a small touch screen laptop without a keyboard. That's why I have been a little reluctant to move over to Win 8 as there are a variety of settings and programs I have tuned just right and I don't want to have to redo everything.

    My reason to get the slate was that it has pressure sensitivity with the stylus which allows to me to work in photoshop directly on the monitor. While it's not quite a Cintiq, it's portable and comes very close to it.

  • JacksWastedLifeJacksWastedLife Registered User regular
    Morskittar wrote:
    On a non-touch device, I don't miss the Start menu in the least. I also don't see the new Start screen for more than about 20 seconds in a given day... which also means I just don't use the apps. One click from a browser and I'm in my webmail. Messenger and Pidgin are already open and each window a swipe/click away.

    It took me a few days with the CP after having got used to the DP to get a handle on the hot corners. It's also a bit janky for me because I use Synergy to share my laptop's keyboard and mouse. The left corners switch over to my laptop's screen so it's a bit awkward to access them. Fortunately my Win8 device is a slate 7 so I can just lift my hand ever so slightly from the mouse and perform swipes.

    I've been using both Win7 and Win8 side by side for about a month now, and I definitely prefer 8. Once I figured out that the charms bar was context sensitive and the "Settings" button was the setting options for whatever I was currently doing? Bliss. It took a bit of relearning but I've definitely become far more efficient with my slate than my tablet. Swipe from left to switch apps is a tasty bit of awesome.

    I would install Win8 on my laptop as well, but it for working and I've found the CP less stable than the DP, and I don't think I could go back to the DP after having used the Metro apps in the CP.

  • AyulinAyulin Registered User regular
    Just something to note about "bloat": I seem to remember reading that the "communications suite" - Messaging, People, Mail, and Calendar - are only bundled with the Consumer Preview just so everyone is more likely to try them out; same with the other Metro stuff like Pinball FX2.

    That is, they'll be launched with the final version of Windows 8, but won't be installed with it: you have to get them separately from the Windows Store. This could change, though, and it's entirely based off of what Paul Thurrott says so take that as you will.

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  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    That wouldn't surprise me at all.

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  • floobiefloobie Registered User regular
    Is the communications suite really bloat, though? I mean, hasn't every operating system since XP come with Windows Messenger, an Address Book, and Outlook Express? Was that considered bloat at the time as well?

  • amnesiasoftamnesiasoft Thick Creamy Furry Registered User regular
    "It doesn't negatively impact me at all, but I don't want it, so it's bloat!"

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  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Downloadin' dis to run on a virtual machine as we speak!

    My impression going in based on what I know is that I am not enthusiastic about the idea of running a UI designed for a smartphone (which nobody wants!) or tablet on an actual full-fledged fucking desktop computer connected to a 23" display just because smartphones and tablets are the current hotness! But we shall see!

    Gaslight on
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  • zen-zen- Registered User regular
    It feels like the core desktop experience has not changed at all, which makes this whole package completely pointless to me.

    I was basically hoping they would take the Windows 7 design, and improve the aesthetics and efficiency of doing simple tasks. Holy shit. I don't know what the fuck's going on when I launch something from in metro. Like launching the vimeo app, which gives me far less control over what I'm doing than if I visited the actual website. It feels like they want metro to be an integral part of windows, yet it feels completely disconnected from the desktop. Like a windows phone that can run a virtual desktop within it, or something.

  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Oh God.

    I have seen the future.
    Spoiler:

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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Different language, but it looks like the same apps: could this be related?

    Gave it a try, but no dice. Thanks anyway.

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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    Is it just me or is the only way to close a metro app from inside the app itself ctrl+f4? Because that seems kind of crazy.

    Mail seems kind of broken, and can't read my hotmail folders. Maybe it can only see new messages?

    Music is kind of like Zune, except broken.

    I love the way the start screen looks. But the calender button should display the time as well as the date. Or something on the start screen should always show the time.

    Spoiler:
    face | zune | last.fm | steam
  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    zen- wrote: »
    It feels like the core desktop experience has not changed at all, which makes this whole package completely pointless to me.

    I was basically hoping they would take the Windows 7 design, and improve the aesthetics and efficiency of doing simple tasks. Holy shit. I don't know what the fuck's going on when I launch something from in metro. Like launching the vimeo app, which gives me far less control over what I'm doing than if I visited the actual website. It feels like they want metro to be an integral part of windows, yet it feels completely disconnected from the desktop. Like a windows phone that can run a virtual desktop within it, or something.

    My first impression is pretty much along the same lines as you, except I'd say it feels more like I'm running a mobile OS in a developer virtual machine on my PC. It feels like they didn't have any confidence in Metro themselves, given how easy it is to switch back to something that looks and works pretty much exactly like a traditional Windows desktop, and if that's the case I don't see why they should expect users to care about Metro.

    Every Metro app I've tried so far has generally been less usable and powerful than the equivalent normal program or website. Once people figure that out, and figure out that having a UI that looks like one for mobile devices isn't a good in and of itself (because that UI was necessarily designed to accommodate limitations of mobile devices which don't exist on a full-fledged PC), I can't see Metro gaining a lot of traction. Heck, there have been (and probably still are) people changing their settings to make Windows XP/Vista/7 look and act as much like Windows 9x as possible, and Metro so far seems to be a much bigger jump with few if any concrete advantages.

    It really feels like they're saying, "Here's our complete revamped desktop experience! Ha ha, just kidding. No, this is what we imagine a WinPad or something would look like, if anybody really wanted such a thing. We just tacked it on to the front of the same old Windows because we thought it would be cool. Don't worry though, the Windows you're used to is still there. You want it back now? Okey-doke."

    I really think this would be better if the Metro and classic interfaces were separate operating systems fully optimized for their separate purposes. When put together, it feels like each interface compromises the other. I guess it feels like desktop interfaces have sort of plateaued lately... but I get the impression that's because they're becoming pretty well optimized for the input methods they're designed for. It feels like Microsoft is intending to actually sacrifice the desktop OS over the next few years in favour of a tablet OS, instead of having the two co-exist.

    On the more positive end of things, I do think Metro looks very nice, and I'm fairly convinced it will work very well on a tablet.

    Another really good summation of how I feel so far.

    Gaslight on
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  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal Flo-ridaRegistered User regular
    look at the bright side

    microsoft completely shafting power users will strengthen linux

    by 2016, we might see a major game actually work on linux natively!

  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    look at the bright side

    microsoft completely shafting power users will strengthen linux

    by 2016, we might see a major game actually work on linux natively!

    What do power users want other than a traditional desktop? Because Win 8 comes with that at least.

    Spoiler:
    face | zune | last.fm | steam
  • AyulinAyulin Registered User regular
    august wrote:
    Is it just me or is the only way to close a metro app from inside the app itself ctrl+f4? Because that seems kind of crazy.

    (Assuming you meant Alt-F4?)

    You can close Metro apps by moving your mouse to the very top of the screen, clicking, then dragging all the way down to the bottom - the mouse turns into a hand when you can "grab" the app to do this. At first I was in agreement that it felt very much like a tablet way of doing things shoe-horned in, but I've found it's actually really quick to do with the mouse: just flick up, click (and hold), and flick down.

    Plus, it's almost like an extension of what Aero Snap already does.

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  • OakeyOakey UKRegistered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    look at the bright side

    microsoft completely shafting power users will strengthen linux

    by 2016, we might see a major game actually work on linux natively!

    This has practically been a meme on slashdot for 10 years!

    steam_sig.png
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal Flo-ridaRegistered User regular
    2014: 64 bit flash player
    2016: native port of Civilization 4
    2047: Unreal engine compiles for Linux (32 bit only)


    so let it be written



    so let it be done

  • maximumzeromaximumzero I...wait, what? New Orleans, LARegistered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    look at the bright side

    microsoft completely shafting power users will strengthen linux

    by 2016, we might see a major game actually work on linux natively!

    Wasn't Quake III Arena on Linux at or near launch?

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  • Slacker1913Slacker1913 Registered User regular
    Ayulin wrote: »
    august wrote:
    Is it just me or is the only way to close a metro app from inside the app itself ctrl+f4? Because that seems kind of crazy.

    (Assuming you meant Alt-F4?)

    You can close Metro apps by moving your mouse to the very top of the screen, clicking, then dragging all the way down to the bottom - the mouse turns into a hand when you can "grab" the app to do this. At first I was in agreement that it felt very much like a tablet way of doing things shoe-horned in, but I've found it's actually really quick to do with the mouse: just flick up, click (and hold), and flick down.

    Plus, it's almost like an extension of what Aero Snap already does.

    So it's one additional mouse drag across the whole screen than we had to do with all versions of Windows before it? Where is the added functionality in removing the good old "X" button? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested if there is some benefit to it that I'm not seeing.

  • centraldogmacentraldogma Registered User regular
    Ayulin wrote: »
    august wrote:
    Is it just me or is the only way to close a metro app from inside the app itself ctrl+f4? Because that seems kind of crazy.

    (Assuming you meant Alt-F4?)

    You can close Metro apps by moving your mouse to the very top of the screen, clicking, then dragging all the way down to the bottom - the mouse turns into a hand when you can "grab" the app to do this. At first I was in agreement that it felt very much like a tablet way of doing things shoe-horned in, but I've found it's actually really quick to do with the mouse: just flick up, click (and hold), and flick down.

    Plus, it's almost like an extension of what Aero Snap already does.

    So it's one additional mouse drag across the whole screen than we had to do with all versions of Windows before it? Where is the added functionality in removing the good old "X" button? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested if there is some benefit to it that I'm not seeing.

    A swipe is is easier on a touchscreen than a small (for a finger) close button.

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    The future of Windows for desktop power users is basically to never use Metro, or use it as bare minimum as possible, and to never use native Metro apps, because a) they force you to use Metro, and b) they all tend to be total crap so far. Within days of Windows 8 releasing, the internet will be overflowing with guides on how to "get Windows 7 back".

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal Flo-ridaRegistered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    look at the bright side

    microsoft completely shafting power users will strengthen linux

    by 2016, we might see a major game actually work on linux natively!

    Wasn't Quake III Arena on Linux at or near launch?

    It seems like shortly after 3DFX vanished from the face of the earth where was an OpenGL hay day where some games were finding their way to Linux

    But not many

  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    I think when it comes to being an application launcher and search tool, the new Start menu works pretty well. Where I think the challenge comes in is that power users have, with the sample stuff, very little incentive to use Metro-style apps.

    Either the apps themselves need to become more featured and mouse friendly (while preserving that touch/grandma hunt-and-click friendliness) or the OS needs to enforce some of this (like being able to "pin" the Desktop and have individual apps/Start screen window on top of that - exactly the legacy behavior, but with the new development structure).

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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    I know it's only an "app preview" but I just attempted to forward and e-mail using the Metro Mail client. No dice.

    The Music app is an advertizement tool that barely functions as a music player.

    The People App shows two updates per page. Two.

    There's what "power users" expect and then there's stuff like this which falls behind what any user is looking for.

    august on
    Spoiler:
    face | zune | last.fm | steam
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    Fair point.

    Though on Email hitting the reply icon brings up a forward option. More discoverability issues.

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  • OakeyOakey UKRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Jasconius wrote: »

    It seems like shortly after 3DFX vanished from the face of the earth where was an OpenGL hay day where some games were finding their way to Linux

    But not many

    Ah, 3DFX. One minute they were there, the next it was as if they had never existed.

    Oakey on
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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Honestly I wouldn't complain so much if I didn't really dig the Metro style and Home screen. And even the Desktop theme is a major step forward from that Aero bullshit. I won't be switching back to Windows 7 anytime soon. I just hope MS has the foresight to make these apps functional for desktop use. Right now they're an exercise in frustration.

    EDIT: Also, has anyone else noticed that Weather only updates at boot or when you launch it? That's kinda eh.

    august on
    Spoiler:
    face | zune | last.fm | steam
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    Yeah, most of the test apps leave a lot to be desired.

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  • amnesiasoftamnesiasoft Thick Creamy Furry Registered User regular
    I'm pretty convinced those preview Metro apps aren't even at beta level at this point.

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