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Posts

  • unintentionalunintentional Registered User regular
    i'm going to make as many characters as i can as soon as possible, for name-reservation reasons and presumably birthday present reasons too

    i'm out, follow me on twitter @uninten , steam is GaryMyNemesis
  • EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    You guys haven't had a chance to whine about the Yogscast for a little while, so here you go. Some PvE in the 1-15 Norn starter zone. GW players will recognise the location when he pulls up the map:



    Amusing note that someone spotted in this video: when you level up in combat, you knock back all nearby enemies. (at 10min)

    Enig on
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  • QanamilQanamil Cola, SCRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    I'm in a toss up between a thief or engineer main. I like the utility of the engineer, but thief looks like a lot of fun.

    And while yogscast is fairly annoying, at least they're prolific with sharing content. I'm looking at you TB and RPS. :|

    Edit: then I watch them wander blithely away from the escort quest. Ugh.

    Qanamil on
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  • steejeesteejee Registered User regular
    I'm not so concerned about the ability to carry sucky people, in fact they *need* a little of that or group stuff becomes incredibly tedious - when you are alone, you only need to do it right once, if you're with a group, everyone has to do it right at the same time. I think a better system is to only punish individuals for their failures - die on a boss and your loot/rep rewards suffer - rather than everyone else having to redo the whole thing over again or compensate for what they lost from the one bad player.

    Make it so that the majority of a group has to fuck up for the group to fail rather than just one person, but reward those who don't fuck up. Since loot is not shared you have a simple system built in already to help that. Participation already plays a role so I guess if you died enough you wouldn't have enough to get rewards.

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  • QanamilQanamil Cola, SCRegistered User regular
    There's a bug (I guess) in SWTOR that does something like that. Often if you kill the final boss in an instance but party members have died, they'll get locked outside of the instance and not take part in the looting. So in a way it's individual punishment for dying.

    I do like the idea if it's done intentionally though. A scale of reward between perfection and only one person survived the battle.

    Steam ID: FauxRomano | FFXIV: Qanamil Rafiki
  • steejeesteejee Registered User regular
    Qanamil wrote: »
    There's a bug (I guess) in SWTOR that does something like that. Often if you kill the final boss in an instance but party members have died, they'll get locked outside of the instance and not take part in the looting. So in a way it's individual punishment for dying.

    I do like the idea if it's done intentionally though. A scale of reward between perfection and only one person survived the battle.

    Maybe even give a small bonus to those who win despite losing a large chunk of people =)

    Still would have a baseline reward of course - say you die early and wouldn't pass the normal threshold but group wins - still give the person something, just much less. The SWTOR bug sounds like you could die at the very last second and get jack squat as a result, I'm thinking something a bit more lenient - if you're alive for 99% and just make one mistake then still give full rewards (or maybe lose out on a small 'survivor' bonus) since you still participated in the kill plenty.

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  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Qanamil wrote: »
    There's a bug (I guess) in SWTOR that does something like that. Often if you kill the final boss in an instance but party members have died, they'll get locked outside of the instance and not take part in the looting. So in a way it's individual punishment for dying.

    I do like the idea if it's done intentionally though. A scale of reward between perfection and only one person survived the battle.

    This is retarded, is this really the mindset in SWTOR endgame? I'm glad I've never gotten there.

    override367 on
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  • steejeesteejee Registered User regular
    steejee wrote: »
    I'm not so concerned about the ability to carry sucky people

    Have you considered sticking to single player games?

    Generally I do - but I enjoy the casual interaction in MMOs. I'm not so concerned simply because I long ago gave up hardcore raiding because I realized it was simply not fun that often. When most of my time is devoted to waiting for people to form up, or experiencing a wipe because one person in the swarm stood in the wrong spot, then I wonder why I'm wasting my time. Smaller group content fits the bill for me, and even then i prefer things that don't waste my time because someone else sucks.

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  • QanamilQanamil Cola, SCRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Qanamil wrote: »
    There's a bug (I guess) in SWTOR that does something like that. Often if you kill the final boss in an instance but party members have died, they'll get locked outside of the instance and not take part in the looting. So in a way it's individual punishment for dying.

    I do like the idea if it's done intentionally though. A scale of reward between perfection and only one person survived the battle.

    This is retarded, is this really the mindset in SWTOR endgame? I'm glad I've never gotten there.

    I've not had it happen in an Operation, but it has been a real pain in HM flashpoints. There are lots of silly annoyances that should be fixed already. Meh.

    Qanamil on
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  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Well punishing people for dying on a boss is fucking retarded. I'm sorry but unless you're deliberately trying to kill your game and build animosity that's stupid.

    I've probably died thousands of times in raids, while being at the cutting edge and the top 1-3 dps, because melee just gets fucked sometimes or if the boss is at 1% it's not worth it to get out of an aoe to save your own life because the boss will enrage or whatever before the aoe subsides and you can get back in.

    In GW2, this will just make people hate their group members for refusing to pick them back up mid fight when maybe its better to continue on the boss because he's close to death.

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  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Qanamil wrote: »
    Qanamil wrote: »
    There's a bug (I guess) in SWTOR that does something like that. Often if you kill the final boss in an instance but party members have died, they'll get locked outside of the instance and not take part in the looting. So in a way it's individual punishment for dying.

    I do like the idea if it's done intentionally though. A scale of reward between perfection and only one person survived the battle.

    This is retarded, is this really the mindset in SWTOR endgame? I'm glad I've never gotten there.

    I've not had it happen in an Operation, but it has been a real pain in HM flashpoints. There are lots of silly annoyances that should be fixed already. Meh.

    My experince with this in SWTOR is that it only happens if you hit respawn and are therefore outside the instance when the last boss dies. If you're just lying there unconsious you can still be revived and partake in the loot. Then again, that was with normal FPs, and the way the HM flashpoints work (where they are "finished" as soon as you kill the last boss, even if you haven't left/still have converstions to do, unlike the normal versions) there might be a bug there with getting credit for completing the flashpoint, but I highly doubt you would be forbidden to roll for the final boss' loot.

    Foefaller on
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  • steejeesteejee Registered User regular
    Well punishing people for dying on a boss is fucking retarded. I'm sorry but unless you're deliberately trying to kill your game and build animosity that's stupid.

    I've probably died thousands of times in raids, while being at the cutting edge and the top 1-3 dps, because melee just gets fucked sometimes or if the boss is at 1% it's not worth it to get out of an aoe to save your own life because the boss will enrage or whatever before the aoe subsides and you can get back in.

    In GW2, this will just make people hate their group members for refusing to pick them back up mid fight when maybe its better to continue on the boss because he's close to death.

    I'm pretty sure the SWTOR thing is a bug, not intended AFAIK.

    Beyond that I'm not talking about giving a player nothing for dying - shit happens and sometimes you get unlucky - the boss still has to die for anyone to be rewarded. I'm talking about that person that died 5% in and didn't do anything even when they are alive, or dies two more times after being brought back. You know, people that are dragging everyone else down.

    Given that GW2 has the downed state and everyone can revive, I don't imagine there where will be many times where going down will mean the end of your participation in a fight anyways. The game already measures participation, there's no reason not to include a minimum level of participation on bosses to receive full rewards. If you don't do anything 90% of a fight, and keep dying, why should you get the same rewards as those who stayed alive most/all of the fight and did the most to bring it down? It's not punishing you for dying, it's punishing you for failing to help.

    When I *did* raid we did punish people for dying - when they died after being told 5x not to stand in the fire, or move when X, etc. If half the raid died with 5% left due to dumb luck and we still won, then we laughed it up and went on, or someone who was flawless on the first 5 bosses died on the 6th. *That's* the sort of system I'd like to see built in - reward those who are contributing the majority of a fight, reduce the rewards for those that don't.

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  • naengwennaengwen Registered User regular
    Saw that yogscast video. Leveling up is gonna be hilarious in dungeons.

    More importantly, it'll be nice to have a Z axis in those zones so I can look around without being blocked by a knee high wall.

    Yeah, I played GW1 last night. Fissure of Woe. I didn't realize the Woe was in reference to your character's inability to hop down 2 feet.

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  • KadokenKadoken He's a dandy guy In SpaceRegistered User regular
    Oh shit. Names, I forgot those.
    Hmm, I'll probably name my main Kadoken Shimatzu or something and choose an Asian looking human race. Probably be warrior, are there katanas, nodachis, wakizashis or anything?
    Voltaere Alghieri for my ranger or thief, make him look Italian or French. Dual pistols, or pistol/sword.
    Loruss Kaius as my engineer.

    (I know last game they had different human races, which represented Africans, Arabs, Caucasians and like.)

  • TolerantZeroTolerantZero Registered User regular
    Patrol missions, while in other games are usually a pain in the ass, look like they're fun in this one. It looks like I'll end up playing as the Asura and Norn the most, with completely unconventional mixes (Asuran warrior/Norn elementalist) just for hilarity. My first choice will still end up being an Asuran engineer, though.

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  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    Just what I like to see, people trying to find ways to legitimately argue that punishing people in a game is reasonable.

    It's not. It's bullshit. It's just a game, and when you start punishing someone for what happens in a game, you cross a line that should never be crossed.

    You can hyperbole all you want about "that one dude who always..." but in the end, such things just serve to punish the everyman in an MMO.



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  • QuintessinQuintessin Registered User regular
    Joe the Plumber wants his loot.

  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    This system exists already in the game....the reward tier thing we, ya know, talked about two pages ago and knew about for a really long time?

    "For who knows what is good for a man in life, during the few and meaningless days he passes through like a shadow?
    Who can tell him what will happen under the sun after he is gone?"
  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    It's sad what MMOs have done to people.

    Since you're in an inherently non-competitive environment versus the other players (Players versus the Environment) people have to find bullshit ways to prove they're better than everyone else.

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    While I agree that in most content in a game, you shouldn't punish people for playing poorly, but there's also a place for it. Dark Souls was massively popular for doing just that, and hard mode raids follow the same idea. You have the easier content, but if you want the challenge, that means you get punished for doing things wrong. Now if we're talking about not letting you loot if you die or whatever, that's stupid, but in TOR that's just a bug anyway, not intended.

  • QanamilQanamil Cola, SCRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Shouldn't punish players, but rewarding exceptional play is cool.

    Qanamil on
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  • steejeesteejee Registered User regular
    Qanamil wrote: »
    Shouldn't punish players, but rewarding exceptional play is cool.

    Can we have players get spontaneously deleted for sucking too bad? That would be pretty sweet.

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  • QuintessinQuintessin Registered User regular
    steejee wrote: »
    Qanamil wrote: »
    Shouldn't punish players, but rewarding exceptional play is cool.

    Can we have players get spontaneously deleted for sucking too bad? That would be pretty sweet.

    Just let people make Hardcore characters, delete upon death.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Rewarding exceptional play is the same as punishing bad play in a video game. There's no way for the game to know if you played exceptionally, unless it's designed to be so difficult that only those who play exceptionally well can succeed, at which point that's the exact same thing as punishing poor play.

  • steejeesteejee Registered User regular
    Xagar wrote: »
    This system exists already in the game....the reward tier thing we, ya know, talked about two pages ago and knew about for a really long time?

    Damned thread is moving too fast now! Stupid high interest level in game... *goes back to GW1 HoM farming*

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  • QuintessinQuintessin Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    Rewarding exceptional play is the same as punishing bad play in a video game. There's no way for the game to know if you played exceptionally, unless it's designed to be so difficult that only those who play exceptionally well can succeed, at which point that's the exact same thing as punishing poor play.

    That's actually exactly what I was thinking. If there was a way to show exceptional play but let less-experienced players still beat an encounter, great. Currently, there really hasn't been. Either you make it retardo-hard that only the hardcores can beat it, or super duper easy. Best way so far has really been the option of Normal and Hard-Mode.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    It's just a matter of what you punish/reward the player for and at what level you do so.

    In something like a dungeon, it's fucking stupid to punish/reward people individually because you are supposed to be working as a cohesive group and you need to do so in order to succeed. If you play poorly, you will be punished by not beating the encounter.

    In open world PvE, there's tiers of rewards because grouping is more adhoc and because the challenge varies based on the people present so you need systems to encourage participation. And even then they aren't punishing you for poor play.

    shryke on
  • StupidStupid Registered User regular
    shryke wrote:
    Caedere wrote: »
    What I'm trying to say, in my convoluted and roundabout way, is this:

    Raiding in WoW (the biggest MMO out there) allows for a lot of dead weight players who are pretty shitty at raiding. They stand in fire, they rely on healers to compensate for them not paying attention, and they ride the coattails of their friends. There are a LOT of people like this.

    And now, they're playing a game where, once you get to the real dungeons, there is no room for dead weight. A game where they can't blame healers for not healing, or the tank for not holding aggro... a game where they will be expected to play well, and where they will be crucified for not holding their own.


    Guild Wars 2: The death of the incompetent and the rise of the competent. Finally, my fellow not-shitty players, we shall have our day in the sun!

    You are wildly over-optimistic and wearing the rosiest of glasses.

    Did you miss yogscast? We've already seen the incompetent being carried through dungeons.

    And if you say "well that's cause it's on easy mode", the same is true for WoW.

    The equivalent of "stand in fire, get healed" or "stand in fire, die, everyone else beats boss anyway" from WoW is "stand in fire, get downed, get revived" or "stand in fire, die, everyone else beats boss anyway" .

    I think the difference has already been pointed out in this thread.

    The facerolling easymode dead weight will get through the dungeon and get their one token. The one token that is essentially worthless to them since it gives them gear that is statistically identical (if not inferior) to what they have managed to scrape up already.

    The players who has a clue will have no problem running the dungeon multiple times for multiple tokens. Maybe even enough for a full set of the ABSOLUTELY BADASS LOOKING ARMOR that will make all the lesser players go "Hey where did you get that cool armor?" And then boogle when they don't understand why the armor you have has worthwhile stats. It won't be a title, but it'll be visible to everyone in-game.

    Try walking around in GW1 with Obby armor. People notice.

    fss.png
  • QuintessinQuintessin Registered User regular
    Stupid wrote: »

    Try walking around in GW1 with Obby armor. People notice.

    The only thing I think about when I see someone on Obsidian armor, is "Man, that guy wasted a fuckton of money on that armor."

  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    I can have obsidian armor on my pvp characters, with only a modest effort.

  • EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    It's just a matter of what you punish/reward the player for and at what level you do so.

    In something like a dungeon, it's fucking stupid to punish/reward people individually because you are supposed to be working as a cohesive group and you need to do so in order to succeed. If you play poorly, you will be punished by not beating the encounter.

    In open world PvE, there's tiers of rewards because grouping is more adhoc and because the challenge varies based on the people present so you need systems to encourage participation. And even then they aren't punishing you for poor play.

    Nicely put. My thoughts exactly. If you go into a mission with a team, you are a team and you succeed or fail as a team.

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  • sidhaethesidhaethe Registered User regular
    The repair system already handles punishment for defeat at any rate. If you're dying a bunch you'll likely have to repair before moving on in the dungeon. You get a lot of chances, so it's not immediately punishing, but repeated defeats will require it. If people are super hung up on punishing players who don't learn at the same rate as them, I could see people implementing a "no revive" policy to force those players to repair before they're allowed to continue on with the group.

    Of course, if this were to happen I'd never PUG and only stay with my friends who are nice and not interested in punishing me, but it's apparently possible this kind of culture could evolve.

  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    Which is, of course, completely opposite of arenanets design goals for GW2.

  • sidhaethesidhaethe Registered User regular
    Draygo wrote: »
    Which is, of course, completely opposite of arenanets design goals for GW2.

    Agreed, and I hope ANet takes another look at it.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    The repair system already handles punishment for defeat at any rate. If you're dying a bunch you'll likely have to repair before moving on in the dungeon. You get a lot of chances, so it's not immediately punishing, but repeated defeats will require it. If people are super hung up on punishing players who don't learn at the same rate as them, I could see people implementing a "no revive" policy to force those players to repair before they're allowed to continue on with the group.

    Of course, if this were to happen I'd never PUG and only stay with my friends who are nice and not interested in punishing me, but it's apparently possible this kind of culture could evolve.

    Why would anyone ever need to do that?

    You get defeated 6 times and you have no armor so you can't play and have to go repair anyway. There's no need to force anything.

    And if someone in your group can't hack it, well, that's your problem. Dungeons are designed to be group content and so you are gonna need to deal with group dynamics some.

    shryke on
  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    Yeah, having your pants fall off to tell you to give up isn't exactly the best way to go about it, I think.

    "For who knows what is good for a man in life, during the few and meaningless days he passes through like a shadow?
    Who can tell him what will happen under the sun after he is gone?"
  • sidhaethesidhaethe Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    The repair system already handles punishment for defeat at any rate. If you're dying a bunch you'll likely have to repair before moving on in the dungeon. You get a lot of chances, so it's not immediately punishing, but repeated defeats will require it. If people are super hung up on punishing players who don't learn at the same rate as them, I could see people implementing a "no revive" policy to force those players to repair before they're allowed to continue on with the group.

    Of course, if this were to happen I'd never PUG and only stay with my friends who are nice and not interested in punishing me, but it's apparently possible this kind of culture could evolve.

    Why would anyone ever need to do that?

    You get defeated 6 times and you have no armor so you can't play and have to go repair anyway. There's no need to force anything.

    And if someone in your group can't hack it, well, that's your problem. Dungeons are designed to be group content and so you are gonna need to deal with group dynamics some.

    Er, I was responding to the sentiment that people have been expressing in this thread that they want bad players to be punished individually for being bad and not get as much reward for completing a dungeon than the better players in their groups. I was not one of those people, and I don't think I want to risk grouping with them, which is why I said I'd stick with friends who wouldn't feel that way about me.

    However, I do feel that with the current system in place, people who have that sentiment might find ways to enforce that kind of punishment on players they perceive as "bad" for dying too much, by refusing to revive them from downed state, since if they were revived they do not become defeated and thus suffer no armor breakage.

    sidhaethe on
  • HugglesHuggles Cinnabar is very toxic Not very huggableRegistered User regular
    Xagar wrote: »
    Yeah, having your pants fall off to tell you to give up isn't exactly the best way to go about it, I think.

    Hm. Nn-ooo. I think we need embarassing underwear too!

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  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Of course, if this were to happen I'd never PUG and only stay with my friends who are nice and not interested in punishing me, but it's apparently possible this kind of culture could evolve.

    And of course this nails on the head exactly why thinking in terms of "punishing the bads" is cancer for your game.

    People who don't feel they should be punished will pug with friends or simply not do dungeons, it causes your playerbase to wither and discourages meeting new people (which is like the best thing about MMOs)

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  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Of course, if this were to happen I'd never PUG and only stay with my friends who are nice and not interested in punishing me, but it's apparently possible this kind of culture could evolve.

    And of course this nails on the head exactly why thinking in terms of "punishing the bads" is cancer for your game.

    People who don't feel they should be punished will pug with friends or simply not do dungeons, it causes your playerbase to wither and discourages meeting new people (which is like the best thing about MMOs)

    I see your bold and raise you an italics.

    Yes, when you punish people for grouping or doing content with strangers in an MMO, you poison the well.

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