Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Out with Kony 2012, in with indecent exposure

13567101

Posts

  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    I really don't understand the backlash here. Raising awareness is bad now?

    They're raising as much ignorance as awareness, and they're misrepresenting a lot of problems.

  • LTMLTM Registered User regular
    I really don't understand the backlash here. Raising awareness is bad now?
    gtrmp wrote: »
    First, organizations like Invisible Children not only take up resources that could be used to fund more intelligent advocacy, they take up rhetorical space that could be used to develop more intelligent advocacy. And yeah, this may seem like an absurdly academic point to raise when talking about a problem that is clearly crying out for pragmatic solutions, but, uh, the way we define problems is important. Really, really important. Choosing to simplistically define Congolese women as “The Raped” and Ugandan children as “The Abducted” constrains our ability to think creatively about the problems they face, and work with them to combat these problems.

    Second, treating their problems as one-dimensional issues that can be solved by a handful of plucky college students armed only with the strength of their convictions and a video camera doesn’t help anyone. These gets back to something very simple and very smart that Alanna Shaikh wrote a few months ago:

    “Bad development work is based on the idea that poor people have nothing. Something is better than nothing, right? So anything you give these poor people will be better than what they had before.”

    By the same token, any old awareness advocacy you dream up doesn’t necessarily constitute “helping.” And while we’re on the subject of what does and doesn’t help, maybe don’t get photographed fondling big (former) rebel guns. Just saying.

  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2012
    Be honest Cent, if no one had actually suggested otherwise and you read in the news that Kony had been killed, would you continue to actually care about what's going on in the region aside from what you saw on twitter/facebook/HuffPo? Keeping in mind that what you would see from those sources would probably be nothing at all aside from celebrating that he's been eliminated.

    Druhim on
    belruelotterav-1.jpg
  • Lord DaveLord Dave Registered User regular
    I thought this thread was about a pony convention until I saw something on the twitter

    Denny's is for winners.
    mkc.pngmkc.pngmkc.pngmontykevin.png
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    I thought this thread was about a pony convention until I saw something on the twitter

    next pony convention is in Africa (the country)

  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    My Little Pony Barbecue

    belruelotterav-1.jpg
  • SilmarilSilmaril Mr Ha Ha Hapless. Registered User regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    My Little Pony Barbecue

    My Little Pony Abattoir and Glue factory.

    twispandcatsbysigsmall.jpg
  • fightinfilipinofightinfilipino legally competent Registered User regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    Look guys, it's totally cool. We don't need to understand the region or the problem. We'll just push for military intervention and get Kony arrested/killed and then we can pretend we've solved the problem, celebrate what we've accomplished, and go back to ignoring a region that has some deep seated problems that we don't really care about while feeling smug about helping the world.

    more or less this.

    put another way: the video assumes that the problem can be solved simply by arresting Kony, and that getting a lot of westerners who are not even remotely aware of the ridiculous political situation in Uganda and the surrounding nations to essentially throw money and shout at the problem will fix everything. that's the attitude the U.S. took under GWB, and that did not get the U.S. anywhere.

    it's also the attitude the U.S. took when Teddy Roosevelt was governor of a little colonial project in the Philippines. the idea was that the U.S. would impose U.S. language, political structures, and public education over the Philippines, and that would solve all of the problems. that never took into account local complex politics already in place between Spanish-legacy Catholics and Southeast Asian Muslims, or the notion that some Filipinos actually might want independence. see also: Afghanistan.

    same problem here: the video is too simplistic, too paternalistic. better and longer lasting solutions would involve Ugandan home-grown efforts to stabilize the country and the recognition that there's a shit ton of corruption and atrocities from the current ruling government, not just Kony.

    ffNewSig.png
    twitter | steam | 3ds: 4227 1731 4009
  • UsagiUsagi WOMP WOMPRegistered User regular
    I really don't understand the backlash here. Raising awareness is bad now?

    This is the Komen Foundation version of helping Africa

    Lots of advertising, so everybody knows about it, but nobody's really sure where the money goes or if in fact anyone is being helped. But people know about it so they can feel good about themselves!

    You heard it here first, folks.
    Putting your finger in someone's butthole.
    Basically the same as flowers.
  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Buy these breakfast bars because they have pink ribbons on them! Yay!

    belruelotterav-1.jpg
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Not tests. They were trying to kill it.Registered User regular
    LTM wrote: »
    I really don't understand the backlash here. Raising awareness is bad now?
    gtrmp wrote: »
    First, organizations like Invisible Children not only take up resources that could be used to fund more intelligent advocacy, they take up rhetorical space that could be used to develop more intelligent advocacy.

    This is nonsense. If there is "more intelligent" advocacy out there, they should be making themselves known. If people have better solutions to the issue, they should be doing something about it. I can't seem to find any information about other groups trying to get the international community to pay attention to the LRA, or trying to help central Africa deal with the problem.

  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    Silmaril wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    My Little Pony Barbecue

    My Little Pony Abattoir and Glue factory.

    KONY 2012: The Invisible Manchildren

  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2012
    Cent, I'm kind of amazed that you can't grasp that these other groups aren't as well known because we haven't been paying attention and don't really care. Why should the media cover an issue that Americans don't really care about until some smug Americans step into the middle of it and clamor for attention? The media covers what the public pays attention to. The only reason you're hearing about this in the news now is because a bunch of people on FB, youtube, and twitter jumped on the bandwagon. Of course the media's going to start covering it now. And yes, that in and of itself wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Except that it ignores that this isn't really so much about Americans actually caring about the region as it is about Americans wanting to feel like the good guys. Which is why the media will go back to ignoring the region once Kony is captured or even just once Americans have lost interest in him. And nothing will have been solved, while a bunch of Americans will feel like they MADE A DIFFERENCE.

    Druhim on
    belruelotterav-1.jpg
  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2012
    And to be fair, I would argue that really these are traits that are common to people across the globe. It's just more obvious with America because of the relative wealth and influence we have. So I'm not saying Americans are particularly short sighted and everyone else in the world are saints comparatively. Still, the criticism of this campaign is valid.

    Druhim on
    belruelotterav-1.jpg
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    This is nonsense. If there is "more intelligent" advocacy out there, they should be making themselves known. If people have better solutions to the issue, they should be doing something about it. I can't seem to find any information about other groups trying to get the international community to pay attention to the LRA, or trying to help central Africa deal with the problem.

    Other groups that specifically focus on the LRA in particular and child soldiers in general don't get the same publicity as Invisible Children precisely because Invisible Children is getting the publicity and funding that could be going to those other groups. IC is extremely skilled at self-promotion in ways that more reputable human rights orgs generally aren't.

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Not tests. They were trying to kill it.Registered User regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    Be honest Cent, if no one had actually suggested otherwise and you read in the news that Kony had been killed, would you continue to actually care about what's going on in the region aside from what you saw on twitter/facebook/HuffPo? Keeping in mind that what you would see from those sources would probably be nothing at all aside from celebrating that he's been eliminated.

    I first found out about the situation in Uganda back in 2006, when Invisible Children presented their first film at the Bible school I was attending at the time. It absolutely broke my heart. I know people who raised the money from their churches to go to Uganda and try to help. I would be greatly relieved to hear that Kony and his lieutenants have been captured or killed, and that international relief organizations were doing something to take care of the children he and his people have been abusing.

  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    Be honest Cent, if no one had actually suggested otherwise and you read in the news that Kony had been killed, would you continue to actually care about what's going on in the region aside from what you saw on twitter/facebook/HuffPo? Keeping in mind that what you would see from those sources would probably be nothing at all aside from celebrating that he's been eliminated.

    I first found out about the situation in Uganda back in 2006, when Invisible Children presented their first film at the Bible school I was attending at the time. It absolutely broke my heart. I know people who raised the money from their churches to go to Uganda and try to help. I would be greatly relieved to hear that Kony and his lieutenants have been captured or killed, and that international relief organizations were doing something to take care of the children he and his people have been abusing.

    And what about the broader issues in that country that have allowed this to happen for two decades? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Getting rid of Kony does not equal solving the problem.

    belruelotterav-1.jpg
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Not tests. They were trying to kill it.Registered User regular
    Usagi wrote: »
    I really don't understand the backlash here. Raising awareness is bad now?

    This is the Komen Foundation version of helping Africa

    Lots of advertising, so everybody knows about it, but nobody's really sure where the money goes or if in fact anyone is being helped. But people know about it so they can feel good about themselves!

    http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=12429

    I mean, they're not perfect, but they don't seem that shady?

  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    you need a 'kony '92' shirt so you dont lose your internet cred

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    gtrmp wrote: »
    This is nonsense. If there is "more intelligent" advocacy out there, they should be making themselves known. If people have better solutions to the issue, they should be doing something about it. I can't seem to find any information about other groups trying to get the international community to pay attention to the LRA, or trying to help central Africa deal with the problem.

    Other groups that specifically focus on the LRA in particular and child soldiers in general don't get the same publicity as Invisible Children precisely because Invisible Children is getting the publicity and funding that could be going to those other groups. IC is extremely skilled at self-promotion in ways that more reputable human rights orgs generally aren't.

    Publicity is not a zero sum game.

    Steam name: munkus
    Pokemon X ID:
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    Rolo wrote: »
    Africa (the country)

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Not tests. They were trying to kill it.Registered User regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Be honest Cent, if no one had actually suggested otherwise and you read in the news that Kony had been killed, would you continue to actually care about what's going on in the region aside from what you saw on twitter/facebook/HuffPo? Keeping in mind that what you would see from those sources would probably be nothing at all aside from celebrating that he's been eliminated.

    I first found out about the situation in Uganda back in 2006, when Invisible Children presented their first film at the Bible school I was attending at the time. It absolutely broke my heart. I know people who raised the money from their churches to go to Uganda and try to help. I would be greatly relieved to hear that Kony and his lieutenants have been captured or killed, and that international relief organizations were doing something to take care of the children he and his people have been abusing.

    And what about the broader issues in that country that have allowed this to happen for two decades? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Getting rid of Kony does not equal solving the problem.

    No, but it helps. I'm not sure how it would make things worse at any rate.

  • UsagiUsagi WOMP WOMPRegistered User regular
    Usagi wrote: »
    I really don't understand the backlash here. Raising awareness is bad now?

    This is the Komen Foundation version of helping Africa

    Lots of advertising, so everybody knows about it, but nobody's really sure where the money goes or if in fact anyone is being helped. But people know about it so they can feel good about themselves!

    http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=12429

    I mean, they're not perfect, but they don't seem that shady?

    Komen isn't particularly shady either.

    But you have to think about their ultimate purpose is, do they exist to help people or do they exist to raise their profile? Because as with Komen, it really looks like the latter.

    You heard it here first, folks.
    Putting your finger in someone's butthole.
    Basically the same as flowers.
  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    i feel like that original video would have been a lot more effective had it not spent the first 5 minutes showing us a cute little golden haired blue eyed white boy, then made him say 'this is baaaad'

  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    you know. emotional ploy and all that

  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Be honest Cent, if no one had actually suggested otherwise and you read in the news that Kony had been killed, would you continue to actually care about what's going on in the region aside from what you saw on twitter/facebook/HuffPo? Keeping in mind that what you would see from those sources would probably be nothing at all aside from celebrating that he's been eliminated.

    I first found out about the situation in Uganda back in 2006, when Invisible Children presented their first film at the Bible school I was attending at the time. It absolutely broke my heart. I know people who raised the money from their churches to go to Uganda and try to help. I would be greatly relieved to hear that Kony and his lieutenants have been captured or killed, and that international relief organizations were doing something to take care of the children he and his people have been abusing.

    And what about the broader issues in that country that have allowed this to happen for two decades? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Getting rid of Kony does not equal solving the problem.

    No, but it helps. I'm not sure how it would make things worse at any rate.

    Ah yes, "at least we're doing something!"

    belruelotterav-1.jpg
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Not tests. They were trying to kill it.Registered User regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    Cent, I'm kind of amazed that you can't grasp that these other groups aren't as well known because we haven't been paying attention and don't really care. Why should the media cover an issue that Americans don't really care about until some smug Americans step into the middle of it and clamor for attention? The media covers what the public pays attention to. The only reason you're hearing about this in the news now is because a bunch of people on FB, youtube, and twitter jumped on the bandwagon. Of course the media's going to start covering it now. And yes, that in and of itself wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Except that it ignores that this isn't really so much about Americans actually caring about the region as it is about Americans wanting to feel like the good guys. Which is why the media will go back to ignoring the region once Kony is captured or even just once Americans have lost interest in him. And nothing will have been solved, while a bunch of Americans will feel like they MADE A DIFFERENCE.

    I'm saying I can't find any information about other groups at all. In the short time today I've been browsing Wikipedia and Google searches, I can't seem to find any indication that there are other groups out there who focus on the issue of the LRA. Of course Americans don't care about things that happen thousands of miles away that don't affect them until people bring it to their attention. Sure, it'd be nice if the average American read the whole newspaper every day and kept abroad of the issues in places other than their local community, but I don't think it's fair at all to condemn people for not doing that. The thing is though that they are trying to raise awareness to make some sort of positive change, and I don't understand why that is apparently a bad thing.

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Not tests. They were trying to kill it.Registered User regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Be honest Cent, if no one had actually suggested otherwise and you read in the news that Kony had been killed, would you continue to actually care about what's going on in the region aside from what you saw on twitter/facebook/HuffPo? Keeping in mind that what you would see from those sources would probably be nothing at all aside from celebrating that he's been eliminated.

    I first found out about the situation in Uganda back in 2006, when Invisible Children presented their first film at the Bible school I was attending at the time. It absolutely broke my heart. I know people who raised the money from their churches to go to Uganda and try to help. I would be greatly relieved to hear that Kony and his lieutenants have been captured or killed, and that international relief organizations were doing something to take care of the children he and his people have been abusing.

    And what about the broader issues in that country that have allowed this to happen for two decades? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Getting rid of Kony does not equal solving the problem.

    No, but it helps. I'm not sure how it would make things worse at any rate.

    Ah yes, "at least we're doing something!"

    So what should people do? If you were to meet a random person on the street who was suddenly concerned about the situation because someone shared the video on their Facebook feed, what would you tell them to do?

  • SilmarilSilmaril Mr Ha Ha Hapless. Registered User regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Be honest Cent, if no one had actually suggested otherwise and you read in the news that Kony had been killed, would you continue to actually care about what's going on in the region aside from what you saw on twitter/facebook/HuffPo? Keeping in mind that what you would see from those sources would probably be nothing at all aside from celebrating that he's been eliminated.

    I first found out about the situation in Uganda back in 2006, when Invisible Children presented their first film at the Bible school I was attending at the time. It absolutely broke my heart. I know people who raised the money from their churches to go to Uganda and try to help. I would be greatly relieved to hear that Kony and his lieutenants have been captured or killed, and that international relief organizations were doing something to take care of the children he and his people have been abusing.

    And what about the broader issues in that country that have allowed this to happen for two decades? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Getting rid of Kony does not equal solving the problem.

    No, but it helps. I'm not sure how it would make things worse at any rate.

    Ah yes, "at least we're doing something!"

    So what should people do? If you were to meet a random person on the street who was suddenly concerned about the situation because someone shared the video on their Facebook feed, what would you tell them to do?

    Tell them to find out how they can actually help the situation, not just pass the message along in the misguided belief that is helping in any way shape or form.

    twispandcatsbysigsmall.jpg
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    Usagi wrote: »
    Komen isn't particularly shady either.

    But you have to think about their ultimate purpose is, do they exist to help people or do they exist to raise their profile? Because as with Komen, it really looks like the latter.

    Yeah, looking at Invisible Children's 2011 financial report, they spent around 40% of their budget that year on "awareness".

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Not tests. They were trying to kill it.Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Silmaril wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Be honest Cent, if no one had actually suggested otherwise and you read in the news that Kony had been killed, would you continue to actually care about what's going on in the region aside from what you saw on twitter/facebook/HuffPo? Keeping in mind that what you would see from those sources would probably be nothing at all aside from celebrating that he's been eliminated.

    I first found out about the situation in Uganda back in 2006, when Invisible Children presented their first film at the Bible school I was attending at the time. It absolutely broke my heart. I know people who raised the money from their churches to go to Uganda and try to help. I would be greatly relieved to hear that Kony and his lieutenants have been captured or killed, and that international relief organizations were doing something to take care of the children he and his people have been abusing.

    And what about the broader issues in that country that have allowed this to happen for two decades? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Getting rid of Kony does not equal solving the problem.

    No, but it helps. I'm not sure how it would make things worse at any rate.

    Ah yes, "at least we're doing something!"

    So what should people do? If you were to meet a random person on the street who was suddenly concerned about the situation because someone shared the video on their Facebook feed, what would you tell them to do?

    Tell them to find out how they can actually help the situation, not just pass the message along in the misguided belief that is helping in any way shape or form.

    You seem to be assuming that finding out how to help is easy to do.

    Centipede Damascus on
  • SilmarilSilmaril Mr Ha Ha Hapless. Registered User regular
    Silmaril wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Be honest Cent, if no one had actually suggested otherwise and you read in the news that Kony had been killed, would you continue to actually care about what's going on in the region aside from what you saw on twitter/facebook/HuffPo? Keeping in mind that what you would see from those sources would probably be nothing at all aside from celebrating that he's been eliminated.

    I first found out about the situation in Uganda back in 2006, when Invisible Children presented their first film at the Bible school I was attending at the time. It absolutely broke my heart. I know people who raised the money from their churches to go to Uganda and try to help. I would be greatly relieved to hear that Kony and his lieutenants have been captured or killed, and that international relief organizations were doing something to take care of the children he and his people have been abusing.

    And what about the broader issues in that country that have allowed this to happen for two decades? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Getting rid of Kony does not equal solving the problem.

    No, but it helps. I'm not sure how it would make things worse at any rate.

    Ah yes, "at least we're doing something!"

    So what should people do? If you were to meet a random person on the street who was suddenly concerned about the situation because someone shared the video on their Facebook feed, what would you tell them to do?

    Tell them to find out how they can actually help the situation, not just pass the message along in the misguided belief that is helping in any way shape or form.

    You seem to be assuming that finding out how to help is easy to do. It's really not.

    Of course it isn't easy. Its not a simple problem.

    twispandcatsbysigsmall.jpg
  • miscellaneousinsanitymiscellaneousinsanity In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.Registered User regular
    Just because I was super proud of this like-machine I came up with:

    Chris Crawford
    people all "Joseph Kony 2012" and I am like "man sure I guess we could elect someone objectively worse than Ron Paul, yeah."

    i think i might have to borrow this

  • fightinfilipinofightinfilipino legally competent Registered User regular
    Druhim wrote: »
    Cent, I'm kind of amazed that you can't grasp that these other groups aren't as well known because we haven't been paying attention and don't really care. Why should the media cover an issue that Americans don't really care about until some smug Americans step into the middle of it and clamor for attention? The media covers what the public pays attention to. The only reason you're hearing about this in the news now is because a bunch of people on FB, youtube, and twitter jumped on the bandwagon. Of course the media's going to start covering it now. And yes, that in and of itself wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Except that it ignores that this isn't really so much about Americans actually caring about the region as it is about Americans wanting to feel like the good guys. Which is why the media will go back to ignoring the region once Kony is captured or even just once Americans have lost interest in him. And nothing will have been solved, while a bunch of Americans will feel like they MADE A DIFFERENCE.

    I'm saying I can't find any information about other groups at all. In the short time today I've been browsing Wikipedia and Google searches, I can't seem to find any indication that there are other groups out there who focus on the issue of the LRA. Of course Americans don't care about things that happen thousands of miles away that don't affect them until people bring it to their attention. Sure, it'd be nice if the average American read the whole newspaper every day and kept abroad of the issues in places other than their local community, but I don't think it's fair at all to condemn people for not doing that. The thing is though that they are trying to raise awareness to make some sort of positive change, and I don't understand why that is apparently a bad thing.

    "raising awareness" can do as much, if not more, damage than doing nothing.

    also, i found both USAID and Oxfam efforts to provide assistance in Uganda after literally two seconds of Google searching.

    no one's saying we should do nothing. but you have to question "awareness" drives, especially ones like this Kony 2012 campaign, when they offer seemingly easy solutions to very complex problems. many people may come to think the problem started and ends with Kony, thanks to Invisible Children's "awareness." that is incredibly harmful. if you're going to raise awareness, it has to be done in a responsible manner.

    ffNewSig.png
    twitter | steam | 3ds: 4227 1731 4009
  • UsagiUsagi WOMP WOMPRegistered User regular
    Also Doctors Without Borders, various incarnations of the Red Cross, and UNICEF

    You heard it here first, folks.
    Putting your finger in someone's butthole.
    Basically the same as flowers.
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    How to write about Africa:
    421px-Junglebrawl.jpg

    the-place-beyond-the-pines-03_thumb_zps3d4e0ec7.jpg
    360: Sir Stiggleton PSN: Stiggy_PA GFWL: RacerStig Steam: TheStig
  • SilmarilSilmaril Mr Ha Ha Hapless. Registered User regular
    64 pages?

    64 PAGES?

    I thought I was sated with 32. But 64?! My life is complete.

    twispandcatsbysigsmall.jpg
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Not tests. They were trying to kill it.Registered User regular
    Usagi wrote: »
    Also Doctors Without Borders, various incarnations of the Red Cross, and UNICEF

    Those are all organizations focused on health issues, I'm not sure what they are doing about something like the LRA?

    Also, I found this article, which has some interesting current information about the LRA's status:

    Lord's Resistance Army: After long silence, the US-tracked rebels attack
    By Scott Baldauf, Staff Writer / March 7, 2012

    One hundred US special forces trainers are working with the Ugandan military to put an end to the rebel group. And while they may have succeeded in sending the group on the run, the LRA has proven dangerous in its desperation.

  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    You..don't get how medical assistance groups can help in a country torn by civil war?

    belruelotterav-1.jpg
  • UsagiUsagi WOMP WOMPRegistered User regular
    I give up

    You heard it here first, folks.
    Putting your finger in someone's butthole.
    Basically the same as flowers.
This discussion has been closed.