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[NFL] 2007: II

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Posts

  • DranythDranyth Surf ColoradoRegistered User regular
    Should have been way more harsh, especially on the draft pick front.

    Well, as it is they don't have a 1st this year, so they don't have a pick until the 3rd round now and they have no GM for this draft. It's pretty harsh. I'm pretty fine with it.

    On the Tebow news, I'm just a little concerned by all the double-talk coming out of Denver's front office, I mean yesterday it sounded like Elway wanted to get Tebow into a situation where he could at least compete for the starting job. How the hell do the Jets offer that when they just signed Sanchez to an extension? Though it'll be curious to see if the trade even goes through at this point with the money Denver's also asking for, ugh.

    Anyway, I'm not a Tebow fan (and I'm not not a Tebow fan), I'm a Broncos fan, that's all there is to that. I just found out we lost the middle of our D-line, Broderick Bunkley, to the Saints. So there's more work on the D that has to be done... I really hope they're planning things out with Jack Del Rio, because with all the offensive focus with Manning coming in, our D is already worse than last year.

  • Triple BTriple B Registered User regular
    Dranyth wrote: »
    Should have been way more harsh, especially on the draft pick front.

    Well, as it is they don't have a 1st this year

    I did not know that. I recant my previous sentiment.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Ann Arbor, MichiganRegistered User regular
    I do not. Carpet bomb them for a significant period of time.

  • Triple BTriple B Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Ehhh, they're well and proper fucked as it is, though. I don't know that I'm vindictive enough to want them fucked over for the next several years.

    Edit: Though, I will say that this punishment does a lot for my opinion of Roger Goodell. As a Pats fan, it was easy to hate him after Spygate, but seeing him absolutely bring the fucking hammer down on the Saints for doing something worse is somewhat reassuring.

    Triple B on
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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    also asterisk their superbowl trophy

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    Loomis' suspension doesn't go into effect until after the final preseason game, he'll be there for the draft.

    Didn't see the tebow terms listed, the jets get tebow and a 7th for a 4th and 6th round pick.

  • y2jake215y2jake215 I found a girl and brought her back, because that's what a daddy do. Stay wild, blap blap blap. Registered User regular
    Triple B wrote: »
    Dranyth wrote: »
    Should have been way more harsh, especially on the draft pick front.

    Well, as it is they don't have a 1st this year

    I did not know that. I recant my previous sentiment.

    Honestly, who cares if they don't have a first? They got a tangible return for that first whenever they traded it (to get Ingram, was it?) Should've taken this years second and next year's first.

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  • November FifthNovember Fifth Registered User regular
    Dranyth wrote: »
    On the Tebow news, I'm just a little concerned by all the double-talk coming out of Denver's front office, I mean yesterday it sounded like Elway wanted to get Tebow into a situation where he could at least compete for the starting job. How the hell do the Jets offer that when they just signed Sanchez to an extension? Though it'll be curious to see if the trade even goes through at this point with the money Denver's also asking for, ugh.

    Anyway, I'm not a Tebow fan (and I'm not not a Tebow fan), I'm a Broncos fan, that's all there is to that. I just found out we lost the middle of our D-line, Broderick Bunkley, to the Saints. So there's more work on the D that has to be done... I really hope they're planning things out with Jack Del Rio, because with all the offensive focus with Manning coming in, our D is already worse than last year.


    I heard that they made an attempt to get Tebow to Jacksonville, but the Jags balked at this outstanding 5 million in Tim's contract. This is affecting the Jets trade as well and may result in the trade being reversed.

    Rams may be in the picture now.

    Tebow may be the greatest thing to ever happen to the NFL.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    also asterisk their superbowl trophy

    they already kinda deserve one since their arena is basically cheating

  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    also asterisk their superbowl trophy

    I would cry beautiful diamond tears of joy.

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  • UnknownSaintUnknownSaint Registered User
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    also asterisk their superbowl trophy

    they already kinda deserve one since their arena is basically cheating

    What's so crazy about their arena?

    I know about Seattle's being pretty insane, haven't heard the same for NO.

  • TurksonTurkson Near the mountains of ColoradoRegistered User regular
    Dranyth wrote: »
    On the Tebow news, I'm just a little concerned by all the double-talk coming out of Denver's front office, I mean yesterday it sounded like Elway wanted to get Tebow into a situation where he could at least compete for the starting job. How the hell do the Jets offer that when they just signed Sanchez to an extension? Though it'll be curious to see if the trade even goes through at this point with the money Denver's also asking for, ugh.

    Anyway, I'm not a Tebow fan (and I'm not not a Tebow fan), I'm a Broncos fan, that's all there is to that. I just found out we lost the middle of our D-line, Broderick Bunkley, to the Saints. So there's more work on the D that has to be done... I really hope they're planning things out with Jack Del Rio, because with all the offensive focus with Manning coming in, our D is already worse than last year.


    I heard that they made an attempt to get Tebow to Jacksonville, but the Jags balked at this outstanding 5 million in Tim's contract. This is affecting the Jets trade as well and may result in the trade being reversed.

    Rams may be in the picture now.

    Tebow may be the greatest thing to ever happen to the NFL.

    What I'm really hoping for is that the Broncos are stuck with Tim for the 2012 season. Manning gets hurt, and a reluctant John Fox and John Elway are forced to play him as the starting QB again, and Tebow leads the team to the Superbowl.

    "You. Poet. Be sure to write this down."
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    also asterisk their superbowl trophy

    they already kinda deserve one since their arena is basically cheating

    What's so crazy about their arena?

    I know about Seattle's being pretty insane, haven't heard the same for NO.

    The superdome is notorious for having insane sound levels. Like 100+ db sound levels. And the saints fans know it and purposely get louder to drown out opposing teams playcalling

  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    DRAMA!

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  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    5 million is holding up Tim Tebow?? I am pretty sure the Jets have already sold at least $5 million worth of Tebow jerseys since the trade was announced.

  • The JudgeThe Judge The Terwilliger CurvesRegistered User regular
    bficky wrote: »
    I am a huge Saints fan, and while my Facebook feed is blowing up with people calling for Goodell's head and boycotts of NFL games, I'm not surprised nor outraged by the punishment. It seems as though they're being punished more for the cover-up than the crime. Apparently Gregg Williams and Sean Payton initially lied to the NFL denying any knowledge of the bounty system. What the hell do you expect when you break the rules, then lie about it when caught?

    This is pretty much my feeling. If the league gives you an out by quietly telling you to knock it the fuck off and you keep doing it, there are going to be consequences.

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  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    5 million is holding up Tim Tebow?? I am pretty sure the Jets have already sold at least $5 million worth of Tebow jerseys since the trade was announced.

    Why introduce a labor cost when you can profit from rumors?

  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    also asterisk their superbowl trophy

    they already kinda deserve one since their arena is basically cheating

    What's so crazy about their arena?

    I know about Seattle's being pretty insane, haven't heard the same for NO.

    The superdome is notorious for having insane sound levels. Like 100+ db sound levels. And the saints fans know it and purposely get louder to drown out opposing teams playcalling

    this presupposes enough Saints fans show up to games, which until recent times, they did not.

  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    also asterisk their superbowl trophy

    they already kinda deserve one since their arena is basically cheating

    What's so crazy about their arena?

    I know about Seattle's being pretty insane, haven't heard the same for NO.

    The superdome is notorious for having insane sound levels. Like 100+ db sound levels. And the saints fans know it and purposely get louder to drown out opposing teams playcalling

    That isn't cheating, that's homefield advantage. That's kind of the point of homefield.

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  • y2jake215y2jake215 I found a girl and brought her back, because that's what a daddy do. Stay wild, blap blap blap. Registered User regular
    According to Schefter Tebow can choose which team he wants to go to - Jacksonville or New York

    seems odd

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  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    Does he want to be a celebrity or be a god?

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  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    I am curious as to why people think this tainted the Superbowl? Are there any illegal hits that happened in that game? A bunch of illegal hits that helped in games? The Saints Superbowl run was driven by the defenses ability to steal the ball away which admittedly was driven by the bounty system. However, quaterbacks will treat the offensive line to various things for good protection. Seems equivalent on that one aspect of the bounty.

    I readily admit how horrendous this was. I really wish they would hit the people involved rather than team. Punishing the team is just punishing the fans which is why I am always against draft pick penalties. I say nastier fines, and more targetted suspensions sends the same message while not harming fans.

    Also, why aren't the other Greg Williams teams getting slaps on the wrist? No suspensions unless the exact players are there, but token fines seem in order if you want to make an example.

  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    no way it tainted the super bowl -- that's just writers forcing copy

    The onside kick, Brees, porter's interception, all the things we remember had nothing to do with a bounty.

    My feeling is that every team probably has a bounty system in place, but they keep it modest, whereas the saints under this regime have been super cocky and arrogant and probably let it get out of control without concern.

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  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    When the people involved run the team and are at the very heart of the setup, you can't really divorce the individuals from the team. The culture of the organization allowed it to happen, and that requires punishment and action.

    As for other teams, investigate them as well and punish them. If that includes my team, the Bills, then so be it. The whole scheme is reprehensible and needs to be dealt with in the harshest manner.

    But remember, part of the harshness of this penalty is a result of the people in question being dishonest about their involvement.

    The Saints got what they deserved.

  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    you don't think this

    was the product of a bounty system?

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    Warner didn't have a problem with it, I believe.

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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    Podly wrote: »
    Warner didn't have a problem with it, I believe.

    of course he didnt cause he's a tough guy

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    Podly wrote: »
    Warner didn't have a problem with it, I believe.
    That's a weak defense. It's not like he's gonna call it out so people can accusing him of bitching.

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  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Podly wrote: »
    Warner didn't have a problem with it, I believe.

    Warner did defend the hit in a sense. The hit was clean. Punishing pla1yers for doing something legal, regardless of the reason, is kind of dumb. The score was also 45 to 14. The Cardinals would have lost regardless.

    @oldmanken
    On some level no you can't seperate people from the team. Sean Payton being out this year fucks us hard. I hate it as a fan of the Saints, but it is how these situations should be handled. Penalizing draft picks could end up hurting a team that cleaned itself up. Say if Loomis and Payton were fired along with other directly involved staff. Not happening in this situation, but depending on the scandal and the success of the people it could be on the table as an action.

    Suspending players has the same potential for harm to the franchise, but again that is unavoidable. The team can also try to rally and work with the replacements well. Fining the team seems to be the ideal to go hand in hand with player suspensions since it could come back to them, but I also feel it is the best answer as future team doesn't suffer.

    I also agree all teams have a bounty system of some sort, and the Saints were way too fucking brazen. They needed to be made an example of. Other teams that got outted need a slap as well since you do need to crack down on. it. I highly doubt $1500 is going to motivate a player to risk a $25,000 fine. If you don't crack down though that number creeps up possibly to the point where it is worth it. That is also why you slap the other guys with token fines. Make sure the message isn't just a warning to keep it quiet.

    Pay for interceptions and such is meaningless to me. Offense gets a lot of nice treatment for big plays, and defense often gets ignored for similar levels of performance.

    Gnizmo on
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    Warner didn't have a problem with it, I believe.

    Warner did. The hit was clean. Punishing players for doing something legal, regardless of the reason, is kind of dumb. The score was also 45 to 14. The Cardinals would have lost regardless.

    :|
    i think you're missing the point
    this whole bounty issue isn't about illegal hits
    it's paying players extra for hits that result in injuries
    clearly this one did, they should look into whether the player in question got paid for it

    in case you're wondering, this is what the saints are being punished for:
    "The program included "bounty" payments for "knock-outs" and "cart-offs," plays on which an opposing player was forced to leave the game. At times, the bounties even targeted specific players by name."

    also the score was 14-28 at the time that hit happened (5:58 in the second quarter) there is absolutely no way you can say they would have lost regardless, 2 td game with more than a half to play
    in fact judging by what happened so far, a better argument could be made that that hit affected the outcome of the game

    dlinfiniti on
    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    Warner didn't have a problem with it, I believe.

    Warner did. The hit was clean. Punishing players for doing something legal, regardless of the reason, is kind of dumb. The score was also 45 to 14. The Cardinals would have lost regardless.

    :|
    i think you're missing the point
    this whole bounty issue isn't about illegal hits
    it's paying players extra for hits that result in injuries
    clearly this one did, they should look into whether the player in question got paid for it

    in case you're wondering, this is what the saints are being punished for:
    "The program included "bounty" payments for "knock-outs" and "cart-offs," plays on which an opposing player was forced to leave the game. At times, the bounties even targeted specific players by name."

    also the score was 14-28 at the time that hit happened (5:58 in the second quarter) there is absolutely no way you can say they would have lost regardless, 2 td game with more than a half to play
    in fact judging by what happened so far, a better argument could be made that that hit affected the outcome of the game

    So what adding a little money makes the hit worse? Did that $1500 make Warner stay down longer? You are missing the point on this one. If it didn't create illegal hits that affected the game it is no worse than incentives for performance built into every contract in the NFL.

    Also, you seem to have forgotten how absolutely dominant the Saints were in the second half. Especially the third quarter. I highly doubt the Cardinals would have gotten an extra 31 points if that one perfectly legal hit did not occur.

  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    Warner didn't have a problem with it, I believe.

    Warner did. The hit was clean. Punishing players for doing something legal, regardless of the reason, is kind of dumb. The score was also 45 to 14. The Cardinals would have lost regardless.

    :|
    i think you're missing the point
    this whole bounty issue isn't about illegal hits
    it's paying players extra for hits that result in injuries
    clearly this one did, they should look into whether the player in question got paid for it

    in case you're wondering, this is what the saints are being punished for:
    "The program included "bounty" payments for "knock-outs" and "cart-offs," plays on which an opposing player was forced to leave the game. At times, the bounties even targeted specific players by name."

    also the score was 14-28 at the time that hit happened (5:58 in the second quarter) there is absolutely no way you can say they would have lost regardless, 2 td game with more than a half to play
    in fact judging by what happened so far, a better argument could be made that that hit affected the outcome of the game

    So what adding a little money makes the hit worse? Did that $1500 make Warner stay down longer? You are missing the point on this one. If it didn't create illegal hits that affected the game it is no worse than incentives for performance built into every contract in the NFL.

    Also, you seem to have forgotten how absolutely dominant the Saints were in the second half. Especially the third quarter. I highly doubt the Cardinals would have gotten an extra 31 points if that one perfectly legal hit did not occur.

    you're seriously missing the forest for the trees here
    the problem is the culture that encourages excessively hard hits with the intention of knocking players out of the game regardless of whether or not those hits are legal or not. If he didn't have a financial incentive to knock Kurt Warner out of the game, would he just have bumped him? or taken him out of the play without plastering him? Who knows. What we do know is that such systems are inherently unethical, unsportsmanlike and terrible for the game of football. And if such a system was in place back then (which is pretty damn likely) it would not require a stretch of imagination to think that it played into the motivations of blindsiding Kurt Warner like that to take him out of the game. Again, the legality of the hit itself isn't the issue here. What is is the motivations of players making hits. Is this guy hitting the other guy to prevent a play or other primary football related action? Or is he doing so to remove him from the game and due to financial compensation. We don't want these questions in football. That is what is going on here. That is why the Saints go fucked as bad as they did here. And I do believe it is appropriate to call into question any game where they did gain from injury to an opponent because THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE BOUNTY.

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Podly wrote: »
    Warner didn't have a problem with it, I believe.

    Warner did. The hit was clean. Punishing players for doing something legal, regardless of the reason, is kind of dumb. The score was also 45 to 14. The Cardinals would have lost regardless.

    :|
    i think you're missing the point
    this whole bounty issue isn't about illegal hits
    it's paying players extra for hits that result in injuries
    clearly this one did, they should look into whether the player in question got paid for it

    in case you're wondering, this is what the saints are being punished for:
    "The program included "bounty" payments for "knock-outs" and "cart-offs," plays on which an opposing player was forced to leave the game. At times, the bounties even targeted specific players by name."

    also the score was 14-28 at the time that hit happened (5:58 in the second quarter) there is absolutely no way you can say they would have lost regardless, 2 td game with more than a half to play
    in fact judging by what happened so far, a better argument could be made that that hit affected the outcome of the game

    So what adding a little money makes the hit worse? Did that $1500 make Warner stay down longer? You are missing the point on this one. If it didn't create illegal hits that affected the game it is no worse than incentives for performance built into every contract in the NFL.

    Also, you seem to have forgotten how absolutely dominant the Saints were in the second half. Especially the third quarter. I highly doubt the Cardinals would have gotten an extra 31 points if that one perfectly legal hit did not occur.

    you're seriously missing the forest for the trees here
    the problem is the culture that encourages excessively hard hits with the intention of knocking players out of the game regardless of whether or not those hits are legal or not. If he didn't have a financial incentive to knock Kurt Warner out of the game, would he just have bumped him? or taken him out of the play without plastering him? Who knows. What we do know is that such systems are inherently unethical, unsportsmanlike and terrible for the game of football. And if such a system was in place back then (which is pretty damn likely) it would not require a stretch of imagination to think that it played into the motivations of blindsiding Kurt Warner like that to take him out of the game. Again, the legality of the hit itself isn't the issue here. What is is the motivations of players making hits. Is this guy hitting the other guy to prevent a play or other primary football related action? Or is he doing so to remove him from the game and due to financial compensation. We don't want these questions in football. That is what is going on here. That is why the Saints go fucked as bad as they did here. And I do believe it is appropriate to call into question any game where they did gain from injury to an opponent because THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE BOUNTY.

    Actually the bounty was for any really nice defensive plays. Interceptions etc. Now I pose a serious question since you want to worry about motivations. Offer every NFL player $4,500 (allegedly the bonus tripled) at the risk of a $25,000 fine and suspensions or they can have a shot at the Superbowl. Guess which one the players will take EVERY time. The bounty system they had in place really wasn't that bad. What it symbolized was the truly awful bit. Combine that with what it could become and you need the heavy penalties. Non-sense about tainting games is ridiculous especially after the stunt the Patriots pulled which had a direct and significant impact on games though was better from many perspectives.

    @theBlackwind
    Sorry missed your post for a bit. Warner commented on the bounty, and someone tweeted back that it was a legal hit on him and he then agreed. It wasn't like he was called out. He just spoke out in defense of that hit for whatever personal reasons.

    Gnizmo on
  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    You're working really hard to justify your teams excesses, but it's still a load of bullshit and you're missing the point and the severity of the issue.

  • y2jake215y2jake215 I found a girl and brought her back, because that's what a daddy do. Stay wild, blap blap blap. Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    I think ending the other team's star quarterback's career has a bigger and more significant impact on a game, let alone on the league, than videotaping signs which are plainly visible to any and all by just looking at the coach. The Patriots (my team) deserved what we got, and the Saints deserved everything they got

    the whole issue is the Saints were creating and fostering an atmosphere in which they encouraged and rewarded intentionally injuring other players. They did so, they got caught, they lied, and they continued doing it. There is really no justification. You can try the "But everyone else is doing it!" that we Patriots fans tried for a while, but it's bullshit.

    y2jake215 on
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  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    oldmanken wrote: »
    You're working really hard to justify your teams excesses, but it's still a load of bullshit and you're missing the point and the severity of the issue.

    Let me take a moment to unequivocally say the bounty system is seriously fucked up if it includes pay for injuries. What the Saints did deserves serious punishment. Suspended Payton for a year is called for on a lot of levels. I think they should be suspending individual players, but that apparently is just going to be fines. I am for more harsh penalties in the right area. I just can't get behind the idea that the Saints games are somehow tainted because they got busted running a program that most people admit probably exists inside of every team. The Saints just got ballsy about it. I refuse to say that because they were somehow more cocky about what they did that it had a greater impact on their games. Hell the defense the last two years has been god awful in a lot of ways. Show me how their system helped them win and I will shut up. Until then I will say the idea of putting an asterisk next to any of their games is extremely silly.

    I mean seriously. These guys make how many millions a year? You think the big pay day of $1,500 is going to motivate them? That is the claim here. $1,500 on top of tens of millions will make players try to hurt the other team more. It doesn't even cover 1/10th of the fine they would get.

    Gnizmo on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Ann Arbor, MichiganRegistered User regular
    Um, people aren't rational actors. Especially people who endure head trauma for a living.

  • PodlyPodly good moleman to youRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    official, via the nyt

    tebow a jet

    edit* reportedly by tebow's choice

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  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Show me how their system helped them win and I will shut up. Until then I will say the idea of putting an asterisk next to any of their games is extremely silly.

    I mean seriously. These guys make how many millions a year? You think the big pay day of $1,500 is going to motivate them? That is the claim here. $1,500 on top of tens of millions will make players try to hurt the other team more. It doesn't even cover 1/10th of the fine they would get.

    As much as he sometimes infuriates me, TMQ had some decent points about this whole thing. How can playing with an intent to injure give you an advantage?? Well, in the New Orleans - Minnesota game, he points out that
    TMQ wrote:
    Reviewing the tape, another aspect of the game jumped out at me that I missed when watching live, and so far as I can tell, all sportscasters and commentators missed, too. Beginning midway through the first quarter, whenever Favre handed off, he immediately ran backward 10 yards -- to get away from New Orleans late hits.

    It seems that the Saints were in Favre's head early in that game because of their hitting. And even if that mental edge is small, they still got it by doing something unethical and illegal. So by definition that is cheating.

    Also, regarding the cash portion
    TMQ wrote:
    The bounty is not the whole issue -- the whole issue is pleasing the coach. Football players are elaborately conditioned to please coaches. They also know that if they want to get on the field, they must do what the coach instructs. Suppose that rather than cash, the reward for a "cart off" of an opposing player was a helmet decal of the sort seen in college and high school. Players still would have sought that

    The amount of cash isn't the issue either, it's the coaches putting the prize out for an illegal activity. If the bounty system was just to reward players for legal activities on the field (i.e. Sacks, interceptions, tackles etc...), I don't think it would have been that big a deal. But when you are giving an incentive to injure, you are undermining sport at it's core.

  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    I have Buckeye decals for awesome jobs on helpdesk tickets. THE SYSTEM WORKS!

This discussion has been closed.