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Having only recently gotten into DC I can't comment on the past but this run doesn't feel at all woman-hating. It really doesn't help that one of your argument for, is that Wonder Woman has a dad.
The Amazons don't feel like an awful man hating culture now. They just feel flawed.
My Band "The Wicked Girls" http://soundcloud.com/the-wicked-girls/sets
Could you see the new amazons as a giant fuck you to feminism, sure. But that doesn't mean it has to be one or that people should get all pissed about it.
I see people getting angry about everything in comics from Superman's stance on a cover to a single line of dialogue to a character wearing a single wrong piece of clothing.
People get caught up on all sorts of shit that isn't really a big deal and blow it way out of proportion when come on they are comic books you are looking way to into them. Not that comics cannot be high art to be studied and critiqued, they totally can, but people are treating the latest issue of Spider-Man or Wonder Woman with as much nitpicking as they would The Catcher in the Rye or To Kill A Mockingbird. It ain't Asteros Polyp.
It would be one thing is the Amazons suddenly became flawed meanwhile Zeus and his brothers and the other male supporting cast members were paragons of virtue but they are anything but. It isn't saying women are terrible or awful, it is making them just as fallible as men.
Personally I find the new Amazons far more interesting than their bland, perfect precursors and judging by Wonder Woman's popularity most people do! I get that you don't put much stock in a book being "well recieved" but I don't mean at CBR or what have you, people on this forum love the book most of which weren't reading Wonder Woman at all before.
Steaaaaaaam
In the Wonder Woman animated movie they were sexist towards men, yes
actually sexist towards men as well, because their society was just women and therefore in it they had the power and discrimination that makes sexism possible
but in the regular comics, they were problematic, but I don't think they hated men
Even if Diana in a lot of comics I have read, especially in the Silver Age, did hold the view that men are violent and savage and women are inherently wise and mature
which again, is pretty fucking weird
the views of Themiscyra's culture very much centred around peace and tolerance and so on in theory
but that in execution may work
to be frank, the fact that the Amazons came from ancient societies but spontaneously develop a whole bunch of views which are very modern never sat well with me as a historian. It seemed like intellectually dishonest and placing genders on pedestals which yes when you do it to women combats institutionalised sexism and therefore in practise it is less deserving of criticism but still is rather contrary to my personal idea of sexual equality, or even better dismissal of gender as anything but a scientific term.
yes, the new series is pretty well written
yes, there are interesting ways to tackle this modernization of classic myths and arguably, ARGUABLY, it allows for more stories
but some of the stuff he's done irks me and I just wish it was the Marston take
including
Well, I do want to point out that Amazons used to be birthed from the sea, the reincarnated souls of women who died at the hands of men. So, Jeanette can fuck off with all that.
This seems to be the crux of your point: that the Amazonians were monsters for living in a perfect utopia, and not sharing. And you prefer them now, when they've got a bit of dirt on them, and seem more flawed. I agree with the first part.
Here's the thing; that's a subtle flaw, the kind I like. Wonder Woman wasn't the best of the Amazons because the rest were monsters. She was the best of them because they were all afraid, and she wasn't.
She left her home, left Paradise, knowing that she would never be allowed to return. Ever. But she did so, because she knew that to live in fear and ignorance in Paradise, wasn't a life. And she's the first one to do it in millenia. And she was supposed to be the most perfect, the most devout, hand-sculpted by Hippolyta herself, to lead the Amazons. And she basically flipped them the bird, and left to go live in an imperfect world. Imagine what that meant to her people, or to her mother.
The new revelation takes a subtly flawed culture, casts it aside, and sets them up as cartoonish villains. It takes the tragic idea, the sacrifice, behind Wonder Woman, and throws it away.
It turns her into someone who made no real sacrifice in leaving an island where she was mocked, lived among murderers, and existed at the whims of capricious deities.
Seriously, why should I care about this woman who was born naturally gifted, left a shitty place, and became a revered hero by taking advantage of the God-juice pumping in her veins? That's like Peter Parker, sans valuable lesson about responsibility.
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it's a big deal
Wonder Woman is a comics icon and part of her backstory has been greatly changed into something that has become very divisive
nobody ever got anywhere without talking about the subject at hand, after all
I thought that Diana went back to Paradise island regularly
at least, in many of the comics I have read she does
As far as Jeanette's opinion, I still feel like it is valid. Perhaps even more so, because they don't even have the defence of ignorance. They knew exactly what was going on and chose to do precisely fuck all about it. But let's say that they didn't leave the island because they were scared. Okay, doesn't that seem equally anti-feminist, if you want to look at it like that? A bunch of super-hardcore kick-ass warrior women who hide on an island because they are scared of big strong men. That suggests that if you made up a society of women then they it would be a society of cowards, and I feel that is just as bad as making the Amazons not cowardly at all, but amoral.
If I am honest, a lot of my argument comes from the fact that segregated societies creep me the hell out and while making a segregated society that is flawed is okay I guess making one that then becomes a Utopia, well, that idea is personally horrible for me, because of my own beliefs. And I don't expect people to share them but there it is.
The sacrifice element is a good point well made. I feel that we can talk about the positive and negative benefits of Diana's new origins all day when it comes to a narrative sense and the discussion will probably come down to personal preference on what we like as heroes. For me I'd prefer Diana to be someone who rises above the flaws of those around her (because I am rather pessimistic about people in general, I suppose), rather than someone who sacrifices perfection (if you can call it that). But that's another debate, I feel.
Steaaaaaaam
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I should point out that I'm referring to the modern origin, and not really what came after. I have problems with the way Wonder Woman, and especially the Amazons, were handled over the years.
This whole conversation reminds me of the problems people have with the idea of Wakanda and Black Panther.
Anyhow, I think I've said all I really care to. It's not really my cup of tea, but if you enjoy it, good for you.
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I should say that I entirely see where you are coming from and that you argued your points well
it's an interesting topic and that is why I wanted to talk about it at length, is all
feels like as this is very much a topic on the portrayal of women, then getting the perspective of women fans would be good
Totally get if people aren't interested in giving their views though
you guys made the feminist in me awaken
it's clobberin' time
but first I have to read some Walt Whitman
really though, I do agree with how segregation of gender either way seeming creepy, but i also think that the Marston approach can still be handled well in the hands of the right author, and even if there's less potential/plots available than the greek god thing that Azzarello is doing, a good author can still tell incredible stories even if they're seemingly limiting themselves.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/10/lesbians-child-abuse-0-percent_n_781624.html
a long-running study found zero percent child abuse rate in lesbian households. granted, this doesn't measure the abuse rate of every lesbian household, and there are other variables/components to the topic that could be pointed to that maaaybe this study doesn't entirely hold water. still. it's a thought.
plus, even with the whole isolation thing going on, and even if Wonder Woman is exiled, a good plot could be her trying to unite the two worlds and bring peace and the amazon technology to the rest of the world, and understanding and kindness for mankind to the Amazons. it could be slow, it could be an undercurrent in the book while she's still trying to tackle other issues, but I think it could work.
I am not sure that one should put too much trust in that report
after all, there is a lot of criticisms (practical, not ethical) one could level at it
I don't think that supports the idea of an all-female Utopia at all personally
(for me, not much supports the idea of an all-anything Utopia. Or Utopia's in general, even)
Still, definitely see what you are saying as regards to the story potential and I think that would be good too
after all, Wonder Woman is supposed to be a diplomat
thematically, the idea of both the "main" world and the Amazons learning stuff from each other and growing as a result would be very cool
Hey, same to you.
My problem is that I do have a lot of platonic ideals, when it comes to comic characters. But, those are often undermined by the simple fact of rotating creators, and the demands of serial storytelling. There's always someone new with a fresh take on an existing property, and there's always a pressure to reinvent and re-imagine.
I simply feel that you can balance that, with maintaining the essence of a character.
The best example I can think of, if Paul Pope's Adam Strange. Which is nothing like the "actual" Adam Strange, in a lot of ways. But, it maintained the key elements, while introducing interesting new wrinkles, like the idea that Adam's an old man on Earth, but becomes young again when transported to Rann.
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the "illusion of change," while retaining the core essence of the character
As far as Wonder Woman goes I was never a fan so the new version being thematically different doesn't bother me
but if someone was already a fan, I can understand that they wouldn't necessarily be happy about what happened
She's so wonderfully happy when she thinks she's freeing the male Amazons- that she's found a new people to belong to, people who were cast out as she was cast out, unwanted as she was unwanted even before Hera transfigured the Amazons. Then she realizes that the male Amazons are cared for after all, and loved, and she's all alone again. It's heartbreaking.
There is a slow creep of characterization in Azzarello's Wonder Woman. One thing that's gradually become apparent about Diana is that she's very social. She surrounds herself automatically with allies, she grew up in a close-knit community, and when she wants to be alone, she goes to a crowded grunge bar. She even tolerates Eris' company after the death she brought. Diana does not like being alone, and now that she is fundamentally alone, she's in pain.
That speaks well of the Amazons, for all the bad they're shown doing. They took care of Diana well enough that she loves them. Now that they're twice removed from her, she craves some surrogate community.
My Band "The Wicked Girls" http://soundcloud.com/the-wicked-girls/sets
Of course she doesn't. That doesn't mean she can't grow as a character to where she might fall in love with one. After all, it happened in the WW comics once before...
Ed & Larry : "Doesn't matter."
I recently was gifted a thing in Steam. If it was from you, thank you very much!
Some interesting points there, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't (The Amazons were approached by Hephaestus in his story, I think, not the other way around, and killed male children before that). But the point about the unreliable narrator is a good one.
And I must say, I also hope that we get a return of Achilles, riding his flying elephant.
The part where she calls Hal Jordan immune to intimidation made me giggle like a fiend.
Anyway, I'm bored and eating food court Chinese. Whipping up a response now.
Let's talk about some o' them Wondur Wimminz.
I don't have a problem with much of Azzarello's run so far. Picking at some bits: I think his decision to return to a meaner, crueler pantheon makes sense in so far as he's attempting to set the stage for these characters in the new 52. Operating from the basis that Marston's origin is incredibly problematic (discussion below), he's returning to a treatment consistent to all of the major players involved, his own interest in dark fantasy, and that offers enough detail for him to sink his teeth into. I think it bears notice that Azzarello isn't interested in sand-blasted and polished pop culture figurines and instead has a love of the twisted. Taking into account that his previous work with Chiang was thoroughly postmodern, we can guess that the intention of WW's setting-as-told-through-characterization is to take the original Grecian ideas and look at them through modern characterization and imagery.
Imagery is important because they've drawn a very thick line in the sand of the Greek pantheon and congregate figures of not being intensely modern through their origin. All of the strictly divine or fantastic locations we have seen have been thoroughly classical, carried through in Zeus' brothers and sisters being thoroughly classically Grecian themselves.
However, Zeus' children are contemporary as all get out, from anorexic ingenue Hecate to WW herself. This is some really nice coding of status and age, we can get a sense of how everyone relates to each other without having a pull-out guide to the divinities. It's this emphasis on telling setting through characters that allows the creative team to set WW in today's cities without losing any sense of magic or mythology, because from #1 Chiang committed himself to straight-up repackaging of classical images and then repeating those images to tell story.
This really works out nicely for them, as not only are these images ingrained in our culture, but they also get across the difference from the norm so essential to superhero comics. Because there's a focus on these gods being not of us, the difference is mimicked that you would find in Superman, where the story tells us that he is different and therefore the Man of Tomorrow. However, enacting this difference does not take any more space or time than the signification of Grecian divinity itself. This allows the creative team to sell their cast of characters as being equal to the superheroes and villains of other titles without having to actually propose that equality at all. Indeed, this is one of WW's strengths as a title - that Azzarello and Chiang effortlessly sell it as a superhero comic without having to ask space to craft their characters out of Grecian and into modern mythology. Instead of a reader having to ask why do I care about the Greeks over another super-setup, WW elides itself as the superhero comic first and yet is recursive and respective to mythology through enacting that mythology. It's the sugar around the pill, instead of a bad taste to a good.
I like seeing some gold back in her costume.
EDIT: Whoops, see this was already posted in the DC thread.
you might jangle a bit when you walk though
get little wheels on the bottom so that they don't weigh you down
Good: Hades (place) is cool, Chiang is still rocking the art (except as noted below), Wonder Woman feels like she matters to the story.
Nitpicks:
-Page 2 panel 1 has a totally bizarre art mistake that Chiang was apparently too lazy to go back and properly address. It appears that the gun Lennox is holding was drawn with the trigger nowhere near Lennox's hand, so where his hand should be he instead sprouts more arm at a 90 degree angle to make a connection.
-Diana has gone to a lot of trouble to get Zola back, and it seems somewhat out of character to in turn give away Eros' love guns so easily after promising him she'd return them.
-What Hades (god) does at the end was pretty obviously what he was going to do, and I don't know why Diana wouldn't realise it.
The Amazons weren't all boring in the previous runs. The title has had some interesting status quo's which unfortunately got swept away when the writer left. Rucka made Diana Themyscira's ambassador in America, for example.
I highly recommend Rucka, Jiminez and Perez's run. Simone's is hit & miss.