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Video Game Industry Thread: Master Chief -- script delivery boy

cloudeaglecloudeagle Zhu-Li, do the thing!Registered User regular
edited April 2012 in Games and Technology
Hi! Welcome to the video game industry thread. Here we discuss things like sales figures, game development, studio closures, executive quotes, marketing and general business stuff. Also poop jokes. And frequent references to this:



IMPORTANT GUIDE TO DELVING INTO THE WORLD OF VIDJA GAME SALES WITHOUT HAVING A RAGE CORONARY

1. Quality =/= sales. Sometimes awful games sell tremendously well. Sometimes fantastic games sell horribly. Sure, quality can have an impact on game sales, but there's loads of other factors that can affect sales, like whether it has broad or niche appeal, marketing, production, system install base, competition, etc. etc. So when someone says "I don't think Game X will sell well," he's not necessarily saying "I think Game X will suck."

2. The overall game market ain't us. Remember, you're posting on a forum on a video game enthusiast website, so most of the posters tend to have (for lack of a better word) hardcore and/or niche interests. But the hardcore tend to be a fairly small element of the overall market. If we were, stuff like the Wii, Facebook games, etc. wouldn't have sold nearly as well as they did. So don't necessarily assume that, say, no one will willingly pay money for a Zumba game simply because you personally don't like Zumba.

3. The bar for success varies from game to game. Catherine sold 200,000 copies its first month, and it's considered a wild success. Battlefield 3 has sold 13 million, yet it's considered a bit of a disappointment. What gives? Loads of things can affect the terms of success for a game -- the game's development and marketing budgets, the size of its print run, whether its appeal is broad or niche, the expectations of the company, etc. In the case of Catherine, it was a ridiculously niche anime relationship block puzzler released by Atlus, a company that specializes in releasing extremely niche games that don't sell in great numbers. Battlefield 3, on the other hand, had a gigantic budget and EA expected it to outsell the latest Call of Duty.

4. Don't cite VGchartz. Ever. Pretty much everyone in this thread would love for a comprehensive sales stats site to exist, but this one isn't reliable. Not only do they make shit up (by their own admission), they usually get it wrong. Sometimes extremely wrong. VGchartz made a big deal about how Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 was a huge bomb that only sold 100,000 in its first month for example, but then it turned out to have sold 600,000 copies. Woops. If you'd like more information about why they aren't reliable, go here.

And now, March's NPD numbers.

NPD Group's U.S. Games Industry Sales (New Physical Sales Channel*) - March 2012
5-week month; March Reporting Period 2/26/12 through 3/31/12

Overall Retail Industry:

Down 25% year over year.


Software:

01. Mass Effect 3 (360, PS3, PC)** Electronic Arts - 1.18 Million excluding PC, 4:1 Xbox:PS3, over double ME2's opening
02. Resident Evil: Operation Raccoon City (360, PS3)** Capcom USA - 582K
03. MLB 12: The Show (PS3, PSV) Sony (Corp)
04. NBA 2K12 (360, PS3, Wii, PSP, PC, PS2) Take 2 Interactive
05. SSX 2012 (360, PS3) Electronic Arts
06. Street Fighter X Tekken (PS3, 360)** Capcom USA
07. Mario Party 9 (Wii) Nintendo - 230K
08. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (360, PS3, Wii, PC)** Activision Blizzard
09. Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja (360, PS3) Namco Bandai Games
10. Major League Baseball 2K12 (360, PS3, Wii, NDS, PSP, PC, PS2) Take 2 Interactive

**(includes CE, GOTY editions, bundles, etc. but not those bundled with hardware)

Other Software:

XX. Kid Icarus - 135K
XX. Super Mario 3D Land - 100K
XX. Mario Kart 7 - 118K

Lifetime:
SM3DLand: 1.98 Million
MK7: 1.58 Million


Hardware:

Xbox 360 - 371K (-14.3%)
PlayStation 3 - 337K (-7.7%) [PR Math]
Nintendo 3DS - 225K (-43.8%)
Nintendo Wii - 175K (-39.7%)

cloudeagle on
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Posts

  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Zhu-Li, do the thing! Registered User regular
    In case you're wondering about the thread title:

    http://kotaku.com/5896996/the-next-playstation-is-called-orbis-sources-say-here-are-the-details

    Long story short, the PS4 is allegedly coming in 2013 and will make it either impossible or more difficult to buy used.

    3DS: 0344-9335-6762
  • PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Also, the Elf art is pretty damned awesome in my opinion.
    Spoiler:
    What's with the size of the legs compared to everything else?

    Wii U: Peevvi || 3DS code: 3480-2527-9521
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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    Here we go!
    Media Create Sales: Week 12, 2012 (Mar 19 - Mar 25)

    01./00. [3DS] Kid Icarus: Uprising <ACT> (Nintendo) {2012.03.22} (¥5.800) - 132.526 / NEW
    Spoiler:

    Wow at Kid Icarus, and it seems to have bumped the system too. Vita still holding at 10k, when will it finally bite the bullet and drop below?

    Edit: Also the holy trinity are all back in the top ten after SM3DL dropped out last week.
    That seems like pretty unfortunate timing for KI. Only a week of sales before KH3DS?

    camo_sig2.png
  • fragglefartfragglefart Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    She just likes fish & chips with a pint or six.

    Also; next-gen is already here.
    Spoiler:

    fragglefart on
    fragglefart.jpg
  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Registered User regular
    Transfar!
    Media Create Sales: Week 12, 2012 (Mar 19 - Mar 25)

    01./00. [3DS] Kid Icarus: Uprising <ACT> (Nintendo) {2012.03.22} (¥5.800) - 132.526 / NEW
    02./00. [PSP] Black Panther 2: Yakuza Ashura Chapter <ADV> (Sega) {2012.03.22} (¥6.279) - 104.937 / NEW
    03./01. [NDS] Pokemon + Nobunaga's Ambition <SLG> (Pokemon Co.) {2012.03.17} (¥5.800) - 65.046 / 237.073 (-62%)
    04./00. [PS3] Devil May Cry HD Collection <ACT> (Capcom) {2012.03.22} (¥4.990) - 43.791 / NEW
    05./00. [PS3] Ninja Gaiden 3 # <ACT> (Koei Tecmo) {2012.03.22} (¥8.190) - 29.797 / NEW
    06./00. [PS3] Attouteki Yuugi: Mugen Souls # <RPG> (Compile Heart) {2012.03.22} (¥7.329) - 23.004 / NEW
    07./09. [3DS] Monster Hunter 3G # <ACT> (Capcom) {2011.12.10} (¥5.800) - 22.402 / 1.337.122 (+32%)
    08./08. [3DS] Mario Kart 7 <RCE> (Nintendo) {2011.12.01} (¥4.800) - 20.890 / 1.601.979 (+22%)
    09./11. [3DS] Super Mario 3D Land # <ACT> (Nintendo) {2011.11.03} (¥4.800) - 20.305 / 1.439.760 (+29%)
    10./02. [PSP] Shining Blade <RPG> (Sega) {2012.03.15} (¥6.279) - 19.032 / 141.289 (-84%)
    11./00. [PSP] Hakuoki: Bakumatsu Musou Roku # <ADV> (Idea Factory) {2012.03.22} (¥6.090) - 17.817 / NEW
    12./10. [3DS] Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games <SPT> (Nintendo) {2012.03.01} (¥4.800) - 16.731 / 99.656 (+3%)
    13./04. [PS3] One Piece: Pirate Warriors # <ACT> (Bandai Namco Games) {2012.03.01} (¥8.190) - 16.243 / 796.751 (-53%)
    14./00. [PSP] Fairy Tail: Zelef Kakusei <ACT> (Konami) {2012.03.22} (¥5.800) - 15.377 / NEW
    15./06. [3DS] Hatsune Miku and Future Stars: Project Mirai # <ACT> (Sega) {2012.03.08} (¥6.090) - 11.334 / 116.351 (-38%)
    16./12. [3DS] Harvest Moon: The Land of Origin <SLG> (Marvelous AQL) {2012.02.23} (¥5.040) - 9.889 / 147.106 (-20%)
    17./00. [PSV] Little Busters! Converted Edition <ADV> (Prototype) {2012.03.22} (¥6.090) - 8.372 / NEW
    18./03. [PSP] Puella Magi Madoka Magica Portable # <RPG> (Bandai Namco Games) {2012.03.15} (¥6.480) - 8.138 / 70.546 (-87%)
    19./00. [PSP] Hanaoni: Yume no Tsudzuki # <ADV> (Idea Factory) {2012.03.22} (¥6.090) - 8.023 / NEW
    20./00. [PS3] Do Love Me Seriously! R <ADV> (Minato Station) {2012.03.22} (¥8.190) - 6.834 / NEW


    Top 20

    3DS - 7
    PSP - 6
    PS3 - 5
    NDS - 1
    PSV - 1

    HARDWARE

    Code:
    |System | This Week | Last Week | Last Year | YTD | Last YTD | LTD |
    | 3DS | 94.011 | 64.017 | 50.710 | 1.118.524 | 792.954 | 5.400.667 |
    | PS3 | 25.750 | 27.900 | 28.973 | 396.851 | 355.171 | 8.033.236 |
    | PSP # | 19.875 | 18.633 | 51.095 | 259.618 | 584.585 | 18.989.002 |
    | PSV | 10.302 | 10.021 | | 190.399 | | 630.385 |
    | WII | 9.270 | 8.127 | 11.808 | 150.875 | 208.918 | 12.314.096 |
    | NDS # | 1.836 | 1.470 | 19.094 | 26.781 | 311.042 | 32.835.267 |
    | PS2 | 1.333 | 1.165 | 1.862 | 13.365 | 21.746 | 21.787.472 |
    | 360 | 1.084 | 1.145 | 1.963 | 16.859 | 30.026 | 1.552.904 |
    | ALL | 163.461 | 132.478 | 165.505 | 2.173.272 | 2.304.442 | 101.543.029 |
    | DSiLL | 1.058 | 853 | 9.760 | 15.362 | 160.938 | 2.309.681 |
    | DSi | 778 | 617 | 8.604 | 11.419 | 134.713 | 5.845.469 |
    | PSP | 19.875 | 18.633 | 50.479 | 259.618 | 571.782 | 18.813.015 |

    3DS Friend Code - 1032-1293-2997
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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    Re-re-repost!
    XSEED Games to Publish RPG Title Unchained Blades on PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) system and Nintendo 3DS™ in North America

    Dungeon-Style Japanese RPG Title from Lunar and Grandia Series Veterans Coming as a Digital Download in 2012

    Torrance, Calif., (March 28th, 2012) – XSEED Games, an independent-minded publisher, is pleased to announce today that the company will be bringing the dungeon-crawling RPG title, Unchained Blades, to gamers in North America on both the PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) system and the Nintendo 3DS™ hand-held system in 2012. Originally released as UnchainBlades ReXX in Japan last summer and developed by FuRyu, Unchained Blades is a role-playing game set in a monster-filled world, and was directed by Toshio Akashi of the Lunar series, while the game’s story was penned by Grandia series veteran Takashi Hino.

    “We at XSEED Games are delighted with the opportunity to bring a title like Unchained Blades to North American gamers,” said Ken Berry, Director of Publishing at XSEED Games. “Unchained Blades represents a collaboration between some of Japan’s most high-profile developers and artists, offering a unique blend of classic RPG gameplay paired with an eclectic mix of art styles.”

    Unchained Blades follows the story of the dragon emperor, Fang, who after being stripped of his powers by the goddess Clunea, embarks on a journey for revenge and to regain his true form. Arrogant and vengeful, Fang is joined in his quest by a cowardly golem prince, a shy medusa priestess, a young phoenix clan maiden, and many other mythical beings seeking to meet with the goddess.

    Due to the collaborative nature of the game’s design, each of the 13 main characters was created by a different artist. The main character Fang was designed by Pako, most famous for his work on the Shining Force series, while other characters were fashioned by artists such as Toshiyuki Kubooka (Lunar), Shinichiro Otsuka (Summon Night), and Kazushi Hagiwara (Bastard!!), to name a few. As such, each character has its own distinct and signature style.

    In Unchained Blades, players journey through the game with a party of up to four characters, moving through dungeons in a first-person perspective and engaging in turn-based combat along the way. Using the game’s unique “Unchain” system while in battle, players are able to try and convince monsters to follow them. If they are successful in using the Unchain system, the enemy monster will then join their party and help them in the future by blocking attacks or supplying players with special offensive abilities. Each character in the player’s four person party can hold up to four "followers", ensuring plenty of combat variety. The game has also been completely redubbed with new English voice-overs and boasts over 60 hours of gameplay.

    Developed by FuRyu and published by XSEED Games, Unchained Blades is currently in production and will release as a digital download on the PSP system and Nintendo 3DS in 2012. XSEED Games will be sending out more product info in the coming months.

    About XSEED Games:
    XSEED Games was formed in November 2004 by a small group of industry veterans led by president Jun Iwasaki with a common vision: to cross pollinate the avid gaming cultures of Japan and North America. Delivering unique, innovative titles across multiple platforms and genres, XSEED Games is dedicated to publishing products that appeal and enrich the North American market. More information on XSEED Games can be found at http://www.xseedgames.com

    Trailer:

    Trailer is seriously hilarious bad VAing, article is posted as proof of 3DS downloadable retail games in the year of our lord Iwata 2012.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Peewi wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Also, the Elf art is pretty damned awesome in my opinion.
    Spoiler:
    What's with the size of the legs compared to everything else?

    An unfortunate malady that doctors have dubbed "Chun Li Syndrome."

    3DS Friend Code: 0989 - 1731 - 9504
    Nintendo Network ID: unclesporky
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Death Groupie Registered User regular
    She just likes fish & chips with a pint or six.

    Also; next-gen is already here.
    Spoiler:

    No it's not.
    Spoiler:

    steam_sig.png
  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Registered User regular
    Used games are a constant irritant for many in this industry - they're at best tolerated and at worst despised with a passion. Frontier Development's David Braben recently lashed out against the used games business, saying that it's effectively killed off single-player titles, and now Silicon Knights boss Denis Dyack has weighed in with his thoughts as well.

    Speaking to GamesIndustry International, Dyack remarked, "From a consumer side, [in the last few years] we started seeing used games really come into fruition, and I believe that has caused quite a problem. I would argue that used games actually increase the cost of games."

    The biggest problem is that used games have essentially cut off the revenue tail for most titles, Dyack explained.

    "There used to be something in games for 20 years called a tail, where say you have a game called Warcraft that would sell for 10 years. Because there are no used games, you could actually sell a game for a long time, and get recurring revenue for quite a while. Recurring revenue is very key," he said.

    "Now there is no tail. Literally, you will get most of your sales within three months of launch, which has created this really unhealthy extreme where you have to sell it really fast and then you have to do anything else to get money," he continued, alluding to steps developers take like including multiplayer or launching DLC.

    Dyack warned that if the pre-owned market continues unchecked it could threaten the industry as we know it.
    "I would argue, and I've said this before, that used games are cannibalizing the industry. If developers and publishers don't see revenue from that, it's not a matter of hey 'we're trying to increase the price of games to consumers, and we want more,' we're just trying to survive as an industry. If used games continue the way that they are, it's going to cannibalize, there's not going to be an industry," he said. "People won't make those kinds of games. So I think that's inflated the price of games, and I think that prices would have come down if there was a longer tail, but there isn't."

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-03-27-pre-owned-increases-cost-of-games-cannibalizes-industry-says-dyack

    Have the Car industry been fatally wounded because of used car dealers? Have movie studios closed down due to Redbox/Netflix? Has Levis died due to Goodwill?

    This is just stupid talk.

    3DS Friend Code - 1032-1293-2997
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    PSN - Brainiac_8
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  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    Here's to hoping Sony/MS decide thats a bad idea. And that Nintendo doesn't bother since it'll probably add cost to the WiiU somehow.

    Steam: kaylesolo1
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  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    FINALLY some accurately proportioned females in videogames.

    Oh shit the game was cancelled. Boooo.

  • vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    I'd like to point out, again, that comparing the games industry to the car industry regarding used sales is not a good comparison. Unless you break your disc, or you happen to be unlucky enough to buy a game for a system that no longer exists, it will work the exact same ten years down the road as it will today. Vehicles, on the other hand, degrade over time. They become more expensive to maintain - not to mention the difference between a consumable entertainment product versus a product that provides a necessary service on a daily basis.

    As for movies, they have other revenue streams - theater sales, television rights, etc. Now, I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with the 'used games will destroy the industry' side of things - but it's not really accurate to say 'well movies and cars have survived with a used market'. Particularly since, with movies, there's really nothing on the scale of Gamestop, nor is there nearly the push that you're seeing even in other big box retailers to capitalize on the market. It's a different situation entirely.

    WATCH THIS SPACE.
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Zhu-Li, do the thing! Registered User regular
    Found an utterly, utterly fascinating article on Gamasutra that seeks to definitively answer the question -- when was the original Super Mario Bros. released in the U.S.?

    You might think it's an easy thing to answer, but considering the article consists of three long pages, it's not.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/167392/sad_but_true_we_cant_prove_when_.php

    3DS: 0344-9335-6762
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    Used games are a constant irritant for many in this industry - they're at best tolerated and at worst despised with a passion. Frontier Development's David Braben recently lashed out against the used games business, saying that it's effectively killed off single-player titles, and now Silicon Knights boss Denis Dyack has weighed in with his thoughts as well.

    Speaking to GamesIndustry International, Dyack remarked, "From a consumer side, [in the last few years] we started seeing used games really come into fruition, and I believe that has caused quite a problem. I would argue that used games actually increase the cost of games."

    The biggest problem is that used games have essentially cut off the revenue tail for most titles, Dyack explained.

    "There used to be something in games for 20 years called a tail, where say you have a game called Warcraft that would sell for 10 years. Because there are no used games, you could actually sell a game for a long time, and get recurring revenue for quite a while. Recurring revenue is very key," he said.

    "Now there is no tail. Literally, you will get most of your sales within three months of launch, which has created this really unhealthy extreme where you have to sell it really fast and then you have to do anything else to get money," he continued, alluding to steps developers take like including multiplayer or launching DLC.

    Dyack warned that if the pre-owned market continues unchecked it could threaten the industry as we know it.
    "I would argue, and I've said this before, that used games are cannibalizing the industry. If developers and publishers don't see revenue from that, it's not a matter of hey 'we're trying to increase the price of games to consumers, and we want more,' we're just trying to survive as an industry. If used games continue the way that they are, it's going to cannibalize, there's not going to be an industry," he said. "People won't make those kinds of games. So I think that's inflated the price of games, and I think that prices would have come down if there was a longer tail, but there isn't."

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-03-27-pre-owned-increases-cost-of-games-cannibalizes-industry-says-dyack

    Have the Car industry been fatally wounded because of used car dealers? Have movie studios closed down due to Redbox/Netflix? Has Levis died due to Goodwill?

    This is just stupid talk.

    Don't... just don't do a car analogy. It doesn't work here at all.

    Cars are objects. Machines. They have produce in them. Seats and wheels and big chunks of metal. Leather and wiring and a big plastic dashboard.

    Games are ideas. Their delivery mechanism can vary, from CDs to just numbers down a telephone line. But games are ideas.

    Ideas can be copied. Ideas can be consumed only once by each person. Ideas can also be shared.

    Once Toyota sells a car, it makes another car. Almost exactly the same. It has an incremental development of the car. Last year's Corolla is fundamentally no different than this year's. It is still a box that moves you to places while sitting down.

    The differences between the Ford Model T and this years Yaris are much smaller like-for-like than the difference between a generational gap in games.

    When Toyota wants to design a new car, it doesn't have to build from scratch the tools to design the car. It doesn't have to invent the car in the first place, either.

    It's perfectly reasonable for game developers to be more annoyed at used game sales because used game sales are having a much more fundamental and more harmful effect on the games industry than used cars are on the car industry.

    scarab you have mental problems
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    Used games are a constant irritant for many in this industry - they're at best tolerated and at worst despised with a passion. Frontier Development's David Braben recently lashed out against the used games business, saying that it's effectively killed off single-player titles, and now Silicon Knights boss Denis Dyack has weighed in with his thoughts as well.

    Speaking to GamesIndustry International, Dyack remarked, "From a consumer side, [in the last few years] we started seeing used games really come into fruition, and I believe that has caused quite a problem. I would argue that used games actually increase the cost of games."

    The biggest problem is that used games have essentially cut off the revenue tail for most titles, Dyack explained.

    "There used to be something in games for 20 years called a tail, where say you have a game called Warcraft that would sell for 10 years. Because there are no used games, you could actually sell a game for a long time, and get recurring revenue for quite a while. Recurring revenue is very key," he said.

    "Now there is no tail. Literally, you will get most of your sales within three months of launch, which has created this really unhealthy extreme where you have to sell it really fast and then you have to do anything else to get money," he continued, alluding to steps developers take like including multiplayer or launching DLC.

    Dyack warned that if the pre-owned market continues unchecked it could threaten the industry as we know it.
    "I would argue, and I've said this before, that used games are cannibalizing the industry. If developers and publishers don't see revenue from that, it's not a matter of hey 'we're trying to increase the price of games to consumers, and we want more,' we're just trying to survive as an industry. If used games continue the way that they are, it's going to cannibalize, there's not going to be an industry," he said. "People won't make those kinds of games. So I think that's inflated the price of games, and I think that prices would have come down if there was a longer tail, but there isn't."

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-03-27-pre-owned-increases-cost-of-games-cannibalizes-industry-says-dyack

    Have the Car industry been fatally wounded because of used car dealers? Have movie studios closed down due to Redbox/Netflix? Has Levis died due to Goodwill?

    This is just stupid talk.

    I guess we should also skip the part about bloated game budgets as everybody tries to make AAA high-budget titles.

    Also, what about the growth of DD sales? Dyack is talking like this "tail" trait has disappeared; how about all these 5/10/15/20 year old games that keep selling because they're one DD services for good prices? It's not the market's fault if people refuse to take advantage of existing services and apply common sense to selling their product.

    PAJoe_zpsc20d21e8.jpg
  • TurkeyTurkey Registered User regular
    Is Dyack arguing that Warcraft scenarios don't happen anymore?

    Not only does Nintendo disprove this, but Blizzard is still enjoying long tails on their games.

    zkVyf.png
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Do we have any evidence that most games used to have decent tails? People could easily be misremembering or only remembering the special cases.

    Couscous on
  • Lindsey LohanLindsey Lohan Registered User regular
    vsove wrote: »
    I'd like to point out, again, that comparing the games industry to the car industry regarding used sales is not a good comparison. Unless you break your disc, or you happen to be unlucky enough to buy a game for a system that no longer exists, it will work the exact same ten years down the road as it will today. Vehicles, on the other hand, degrade over time. They become more expensive to maintain - not to mention the difference between a consumable entertainment product versus a product that provides a necessary service on a daily basis.

    As for movies, they have other revenue streams - theater sales, television rights, etc. Now, I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with the 'used games will destroy the industry' side of things - but it's not really accurate to say 'well movies and cars have survived with a used market'. Particularly since, with movies, there's really nothing on the scale of Gamestop, nor is there nearly the push that you're seeing even in other big box retailers to capitalize on the market. It's a different situation entirely.

    Movies definitely have more chances to recoup their investment - they have theatrical release, payperview, DVD/BluRay, pay cable, streaming to Netflix, basic cable, and then if they want deluxe DVD. With that said, you never are asked to make such a large, one time commitment to a movie as you are with a game. If I go to the theater and hate it, I'm out $8. If I buy it on BluRay I might be out $25 (and I can resell it for a few bucks). If I buy Skyrim and hate it, I'd be out $60 so I think the customer is justified feeling resale should be part of that deal.

    I think the game industry really does have a shot to increase that if they wanted. DLC already gives them a 2nd chance to get some money back from a game. On top of that, you have the inevitable drop to $20/30 or the Game of Year edition to let you get a 2nd wind from a game. If they would advertise more heavily they could even make the game hitting direct download a big event and get some cash there by making that as cheap as a used copy. Dead Rising even managed to make money off a mini "prequel" for $5 before the game even hit and it was crazy fun to boot.

    Instead of restricting one market (used) they should be finding new markets much like movies did.

    steam_sig.png
  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Registered User regular
    It's perfectly reasonable for game developers to be more annoyed at used game sales because used game sales are having a much more fundamental and more harmful effect on the games industry than used cars are on the car industry.

    The game industry is hurting because of the early rush to push HD and getting the best graphics out there. It's hurting because big name companies oversaturate the market with sequel after sequel.

    It is hurt because big companies have created a hostile environment where smaller companies that used to be able to produce new and interesting ideas can no longer due so and keep their doors open. Because a grading system has become so important to publishers that if the score isn't to their liking they cut salaries and jobs and bonuses and entire development teams.

    Because companies force developers to push a game out regardless of its quality. Because companies like Rovio have put it in the general populous' mind that 99 cents is the expected price of a video game.

    Used game sales don't help, but it is by far the smallest part of why the industry is hurting right now. If it was, the industry would have been in trouble years ago.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Zhu-Li, do the thing! Registered User regular
    ...hell, I don't even think that most new games had much of a tail back then.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Yeah, try telling my collection of digital-distribution old-school games that I bought off of Steam in the last couple of years that nothing has a "tail" any more.

    Ah well, I think Dyack is kind of a hack anyway. Not Molyneux levels of hack-ness, but still more bluster than substance.

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  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    I know everyone is down on Silicon Knights for Too Human, and generally speaking, with good reason.

    But I also just want to remind everyone that Silicon Knights developed X-Men: Destiny.

    Let's all take a moment, and let that sink in, while we consider just how much we give a shit about anything Dyack says.

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    Used games are a constant irritant for many in this industry - they're at best tolerated and at worst despised with a passion. Frontier Development's David Braben recently lashed out against the used games business, saying that it's effectively killed off single-player titles, and now Silicon Knights boss Denis Dyack has weighed in with his thoughts as well.

    Speaking to GamesIndustry International, Dyack remarked, "From a consumer side, [in the last few years] we started seeing used games really come into fruition, and I believe that has caused quite a problem. I would argue that used games actually increase the cost of games."

    The biggest problem is that used games have essentially cut off the revenue tail for most titles, Dyack explained.

    "There used to be something in games for 20 years called a tail, where say you have a game called Warcraft that would sell for 10 years. Because there are no used games, you could actually sell a game for a long time, and get recurring revenue for quite a while. Recurring revenue is very key," he said.

    "Now there is no tail. Literally, you will get most of your sales within three months of launch, which has created this really unhealthy extreme where you have to sell it really fast and then you have to do anything else to get money," he continued, alluding to steps developers take like including multiplayer or launching DLC.

    Dyack warned that if the pre-owned market continues unchecked it could threaten the industry as we know it.
    "I would argue, and I've said this before, that used games are cannibalizing the industry. If developers and publishers don't see revenue from that, it's not a matter of hey 'we're trying to increase the price of games to consumers, and we want more,' we're just trying to survive as an industry. If used games continue the way that they are, it's going to cannibalize, there's not going to be an industry," he said. "People won't make those kinds of games. So I think that's inflated the price of games, and I think that prices would have come down if there was a longer tail, but there isn't."

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-03-27-pre-owned-increases-cost-of-games-cannibalizes-industry-says-dyack

    Have the Car industry been fatally wounded because of used car dealers? Have movie studios closed down due to Redbox/Netflix? Has Levis died due to Goodwill?

    This is just stupid talk.

    Cars and jeans are degrading assets, and thus don't even compare to games. Movies is a slightly more apt description, but still not a perfect analog.

    Not saying I completely agree with Dyack, but trying to compare used games to used cars is always a red herring. Cars degrade, games don't.

    GnomeTank on
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    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    Yeah, try telling my collection of digital-distribution old-school games that I bought off of Steam in the last couple of years that nothing has a "tail" any more.

    Ah well, I think Dyack is kind of a hack anyway. Not Molyneux levels of hack-ness, but still more bluster than substance.

    You keep mentioning DD games. Which can't be resold or bought used.

    think about that.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Yeah, try telling my collection of digital-distribution old-school games that I bought off of Steam in the last couple of years that nothing has a "tail" any more.

    Ah well, I think Dyack is kind of a hack anyway. Not Molyneux levels of hack-ness, but still more bluster than substance.

    You keep mentioning DD games. Which can't be resold or bought used.

    think about that.

    DD games are also mostly on the PC, where the used market more or less doesn't exist.

  • Spicy_RevSpicy_Rev Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Wow, poor Syndicate. I played the demo and it didn't click for me, but I still thought it might be good.

    Also, I don't think Dyack is relevant anymore. His studio doesnt make real games anymore or games that people want to play. I wouldn't listen to the Imagine Baby studio lead so why listen to Dyack?

    Spicy_Rev on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Have the Car industry been fatally wounded because of used car dealers?

    No, but the car industry doesn't have artificially low and market harming prices either.
    It's perfectly reasonable for game developers to be more annoyed at used game sales because used game sales are having a much more fundamental and more harmful effect on the games industry than used cars are on the car industry.

    It's the used _anything_ industry. Games and Music tend to be the only markets that want to stand out in regards to used sales. Other industries adapt. Entertainment should adapt as well instead of destroying the idea of right to ownership.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Most retail PC games didn't have much of a tail life outside of the five or ten dollar jewel cases if I recall correctly.

  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    Used games are a constant irritant for many in this industry - they're at best tolerated and at worst despised with a passion. Frontier Development's David Braben recently lashed out against the used games business, saying that it's effectively killed off single-player titles, and now Silicon Knights boss Denis Dyack has weighed in with his thoughts as well.

    Speaking to GamesIndustry International, Dyack remarked, "From a consumer side, [in the last few years] we started seeing used games really come into fruition, and I believe that has caused quite a problem. I would argue that used games actually increase the cost of games."

    The biggest problem is that used games have essentially cut off the revenue tail for most titles, Dyack explained.

    "There used to be something in games for 20 years called a tail, where say you have a game called Warcraft that would sell for 10 years. Because there are no used games, you could actually sell a game for a long time, and get recurring revenue for quite a while. Recurring revenue is very key," he said.

    "Now there is no tail. Literally, you will get most of your sales within three months of launch, which has created this really unhealthy extreme where you have to sell it really fast and then you have to do anything else to get money," he continued, alluding to steps developers take like including multiplayer or launching DLC.

    Dyack warned that if the pre-owned market continues unchecked it could threaten the industry as we know it.
    "I would argue, and I've said this before, that used games are cannibalizing the industry. If developers and publishers don't see revenue from that, it's not a matter of hey 'we're trying to increase the price of games to consumers, and we want more,' we're just trying to survive as an industry. If used games continue the way that they are, it's going to cannibalize, there's not going to be an industry," he said. "People won't make those kinds of games. So I think that's inflated the price of games, and I think that prices would have come down if there was a longer tail, but there isn't."

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-03-27-pre-owned-increases-cost-of-games-cannibalizes-industry-says-dyack

    Have the Car industry been fatally wounded because of used car dealers? Have movie studios closed down due to Redbox/Netflix? Has Levis died due to Goodwill?

    This is just stupid talk.

    Cars and jeans are degrading assets, and thus don't even compare to games. Movies is a slightly more apt description, but still not a perfect analog.

    Not saying I completely agree with Dyack, but trying to compare used games to used cars is always a red herring. Cars degrade, games don't.

    My point is that when a person buys a physical item, it is then their right to sell it. Game companies are not so unique that they suddenly should be able to tell us that we can't. Problem is that they are going to try and do that, and it sucks. Buying/selling/trading used items has been a given constant of how owned goods worked since the first person invented the garage sale.

    Edit: Sheep explained my point excellently.

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  • Lindsey LohanLindsey Lohan Registered User regular
    Yeah, try telling my collection of digital-distribution old-school games that I bought off of Steam in the last couple of years that nothing has a "tail" any more.

    Ah well, I think Dyack is kind of a hack anyway. Not Molyneux levels of hack-ness, but still more bluster than substance.

    You keep mentioning DD games. Which can't be resold or bought used.

    think about that.

    DD games also don't take up retail space. There is a point where even if a game has a "tail" it doesn't matter because Walmart/Target/etc simply don't want half their shelves taken up by old games that are selling 2 copies a week when they could be full of games from this month selling daily.

    steam_sig.png
  • RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    Yeah, try telling my collection of digital-distribution old-school games that I bought off of Steam in the last couple of years that nothing has a "tail" any more.

    Ah well, I think Dyack is kind of a hack anyway. Not Molyneux levels of hack-ness, but still more bluster than substance.

    You keep mentioning DD games. Which can't be resold or bought used.

    think about that.

    Right. If you want to get rid of used game sales there's already an easy answer - release on DD only.

    Just checked my Steam stats and it looks like we made about 2/3rds of our LTD from the first 3 months after launch. Not too bad; we've only been on Steam for about 8 months.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Depends on the game. Games like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Fallout, et al still have tails.

    That doesn't completely invalidate the idea that used game sales is fundamentally different than used car sales, for a lot of reasons. I'm not saying the industry should be pushing so hard to get rid of them (because lulz right of ownership), but at the same time, I think we need to recognize that selling a non-degrading asset is fundamentally different than selling a degrading one.

    e: Arg, speaking of, I keep meaning to buy the CTSW/BoD7 pack on Steam, despite owning both games on XBLA already, just to support.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck NONSTOP INFINITE CLIMAX POSTING you must go on i cant go on ill go onRegistered User regular
    uhh how is the video game industry hurting

    its growing incredibly quickly

    more and more money is spent on it every year

    ?

    obF2Wuw.png
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    uhh how is the video game industry hurting

    its growing incredibly quickly

    more and more money is spent on it every year

    ?

    Yet game studios are closing faster than Hillary Clinton's legs. The industry "as a whole" may be growing in dollars spent, but that money is not always in the right places.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck NONSTOP INFINITE CLIMAX POSTING you must go on i cant go on ill go onRegistered User regular
    depends what you mean by right places. there are good studios having problems that make great games, but thats not so much the industry hurting as much as a certain type of studio.

    i mean i feel like "the industry is hurting" is what you say when the whole industry is quietly dying, whereas this is more "developers and publishers be having fucked up relationships fuck da ea police yo"

    obF2Wuw.png
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Well, I agree with you, I don't think the industry as a whole is hurting....I think the part of the industry a lot of us care about is hurting, aka not super-mobile, not social Zynga-style games, not F2P micro transaction bazaars.

    And yes, the publisher/developer relationship is fucked up. Stockholm syndrome levels of fucked up.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck NONSTOP INFINITE CLIMAX POSTING you must go on i cant go on ill go onRegistered User regular
    one of the things i often wish is that i get given 5 billion dollars to spend as i choose, so i can just give a great studio 300 million dollars and just be like "go hogwild, i dont give a fuck - no limits, make something awesome, no interference etcetc"

    and no perma-crunch time :/

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  • Muddy WaterMuddy Water Quiet Batperson Registered User regular
    Hasn't this year so far been the worst of this generation? I remember January was the worst since 2004 and February didn't set the books on fire either.

  • Lindsey LohanLindsey Lohan Registered User regular
    I think part of the problem is that every publisher thinks every game should be a $60 hit and when it isn't the developer must be to blame. More publishers need to step back and be willing to say that a game is more a DD instead of a retail product and have the game budgeted accordingly especially games with a niche or limited audience.

    Rayman Origins might have benefited from a DD approach. I'd be happy with a smaller budget DD Beyond Good & Evil 2 - that way it would have a better chance of success, just use the engine from BG&E HD. Bizarre might still be around if Blur had been scaled to be a DD game.

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  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    uhh how is the video game industry hurting

    its growing incredibly quickly

    more and more money is spent on it every year

    ?

    Yet game studios are closing faster than Hillary Clinton's legs. The industry "as a whole" may be growing in dollars spent, but that money is not always in the right places.

    This is what's happening.

    Money is being spent, yet the overinflated budgets and other factors I mentioned in the earlier post have made it where most companies cannot survive in the current environment.

    Now on the other side of the coin, even though I'm not a huge Digital gaming guy, Steam/XBLA/PSN/WiiWare have given indie devs a chance to make something unique and new again, and there have been some great successes in this area. It's a small glimmer of hope in a hurting industry.

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