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Community: Season 4 Premiere February 7, Old Timeslot

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Posts

  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    Nappuccino wrote: »
    I wouldn't be surprised if Dan has some kind of Manic-Depressive disorder going by his general comments about his creative process and the mental breakdowns he seems to routinely have while producing the show. He's also pretty Type-A it seems.

    I mean... I think partly why he sided with that kid in the letter is because he was already predisposed to be against the movie because of what Spielberg did to his initial vision of what it should be. Had he set out to make the movie he wanted and the kid still disliked it, he likely would have sent back something rather snarky (albiet with less cursewords than he would send to you or me on Twitter).

    He's a pretty great guy, but he's definitely got his flaws and this is one of them.

    Is Dan Harmon a douche? Probably.

    On the other hand, Community is brilliant.

    On the other other hand, you if you want to maintain your brilliant TV shows, then you should know how to get a handle on your actors by now.

    Harmon is just a producer with a creator credit. We say that he "owns" the characters for accounting purpose$, but he has had fuck-all to do with making them funny or likable.

    Note that the best episodes of Community were neither directed nor written by Dan Harmon.

    In fact, the success of the show has had far more to do with the great ensemble cast and the words they say than the hurf-durfery of Harmon's initial network pitch, "It's a sitcom, but set in a community college!!"

    The commentaries lead me to believe that Harmon isn't a show creator who came up with an idea and then did nothing except for the episodes he gets rewrite credits on. I think he's in the writers room or works on rewrites to get the funny lines in.

  • NappuccinoNappuccino Registered User regular
    In a writer's room, everyone writes on each script. The person with the writer's credit is just the one who goes away for a while a writes the whole script. They bring it back to be constantly edited by the rest of the writers. Often, the one with the writer's credit isn't even the one who pitched the idea.

    Like to write? Want to get e-published? Give us a look-see at http://wednesdaynightwrites.com/
    Spoiler:
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Harmon is definitely pretty hands on on the show, but he's got serious issues with being "worthy" and he'll go from ecstatic about the show to incredibly depressed at the drop of a hat.

    Several times in the S1 commentaries he says "The critics just didn't GET us for a while, it's fine that they don't like it but they just didn't GET it."

    He's basically how you expect a writer to be.

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  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X When you speak I hear muffinsRegistered User regular
    Chevy comes across as a hostile dick sometimes;



    2:14 here, he calls Donglover an asshole for...delivering the correct line? :S

    I guess he could be joking, but Don looks pretty confused, and someone off camera is all "woah..."

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Like I said, it's probably a case of dicks all around, but in this particular instance if I was forced to pick I side, it would not be with Harmon.

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  • MagellMagell Sphinx! Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    Harmon is definitely pretty hands on on the show, but he's got serious issues with being "worthy" and he'll go from ecstatic about the show to incredibly depressed at the drop of a hat.

    Several times in the S1 commentaries he says "The critics just didn't GET us for a while, it's fine that they don't like it but they just didn't GET it."

    He's basically how you expect a writer to be.

    That line was delivered about the idea that critics started liking the show later in season 1 and said it was because the show changed, and Harmon was saying it wasn't that the show got good, but that the critics started to understand the idea of the show and that's why they liked it.

    I think the problem is Chevy was being Chevy which is obnoxious from all accounts from people who have worked with him and Harmon finally snapped and told him what kind of asshole he was in a situation that was not a good time to do that.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    I mean, I remember that yeah. I'm basing my interpretation of him on several different things I've read and heard from him. And regardless of anything that I might not like about his personality, that has fuck all to do with my enjoyment of Community.

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  • TavTav Registered User regular
    Did you know Greendale students are technically in the Army Reserve? Let's say a prayer for peace.

  • Form of Monkey!Form of Monkey! Registered User regular
    This pure speculation about Harmon's role at this point is interesting, but it has nothing to do with how the industry actually works.

    While writing for television is often a collaborative effort, there are incredibly specific WGA rules that must be followed regarding who gets credit for what. And these rules are critical because they're directly related to who gets paid, and who gets that next writing gig down the road.

    If Dan Harmon ever had more input into any one script than any single writer, then he would literally have a pure writing credit for that particular episode, and not "just" a creator credit. But he literally doesn't. So there literally isn't. Literally! (going for the twofer Archer and Community reference)


    Speculation mode now engaged.

    My impression is that a great many of the people who work on the show may indeed resent the fact that Harmon tries to manage personalities as if he's a director, or tries to constantly change the script as if he's still a writer. It's a classic case of a producer overstepping his bounds that you mostly hear about as industry gossip, and rarely even then, because if nothing else, Dan Harmon is still one of their bosses. So career-fear tends to quash this stuff early.

    The only reason we're hearing about this at all is because it involves Chevy Chase, who is already wealthy, doesn't need this job or any other in the future, and stopped giving any fucks about responsibly advancing his career since the 80s. If it were any other cast member, then this weird egotistical micromanaging by Harmon would have been met with smiles and muttering instead of overt middle fingers.

    Speculation mode disengaged.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Chevy Chase in Feud with Community creator Dan Harmon
    Things are looking up for NBC’s perennial bubble series Community, which has been solid since returning from a long hiatus earlier this month, establishing itself as NBC’s second highest-rated comedy behind The Office. But behind the scenes, a rift between co-star Chevy Chase and creator/executive producer/showrunner Dan Harmon has escalated into an ugly war of words.

    Accounts of the feud have leaked online, including on social news website Reddit. The chronology of the events, corroborated to me by multiple sources, involves Chase walking off the set of the show on the last day of shooting last month without filming one of his scenes, which reportedly was to close out the season finale. Then at the wrap party, Harmon got up and gave a “Fuck you, Chevy” speech in front of Chase and his wife and daughter, and encouraged the crew to join him in saying “fuck you” to the actor. Chase left immediately and later left Harmon a profane-laden voice message, a portion of which found its way to the Web after Harmon played it in front of other people. Click here for audio. (Warning: foul language! NOTE: The audio link has just been disabled, a copy of the file will be uploaded below the story momentarily) In the voice message, Chase addresses both his storming off the set, which he attributes to not getting the script beforehand, (some say it’s because he didn’t find the scene funny) and the wrap party incident.

    People close to the matter told me they weren’t surprised by the feud, noting that Chase already had a reputation of being difficult before signing on for Community. (I hear it was NBC’s former boss Ben Silverman who championed Chase for the project and was instrumental in bringing him on board.) Word is Chase has stormed off the set of the NBC show in the middle of a scene a number of times and has also gotten into arguments with Community executive producers-directors Anthony and Joe Russo. There had been tension between Chase and Harmon, and with both of them described as “passionate” or “volatile,” depending who you talk to, a blowup was “inevitable,” one person said. Ironically, a recorded Chevy Chase phone call played a major role in another feud involving the Saturday Night Live alum, that with shock jock Howard Stern.

    It is unclear at the moment what impact the falling-out between Harmon and Chase would have on Community and whether Chase would continue on the show. The producers’ attention right now is focused on securing a fourth-season renewal for the offbeat comedy, which appears more and more likely. The pickup is key to the syndication prospects of the series, which has an off-network deal with Comedy Central as well as a non-exclusive pact with Hulu. While he was the biggest name when Community launched, the series has made stars out of several of its little known supporting players, with Joel McHale firmly established as the show’s leading man. Still, Community has benefited Chase, boosting his sagging career with a role on a hip show.

    You know, I was kind of rubbed the wrong way by how Harmon acted on the S1 commentaries, how he kept bragging about pulling shit out of his ass at the last minute, and the breakdown he did of S2 on the AV Club was grating because he kept whinging about his heartbreaking work of staggering genius that is Community, but this takes the cake of cry baby, spoiled bullshit.

    You have an actor walk off, yeah, you should talk to him about that, fuck you can even chew him a new one IN PRIVATE. That's like, lesson one in How to be a Good Boss. You don't have a circle jerk session at a wrap party in front of his family and then show the response tape around to your buddies until its leaked on the internet.

    Chevy Chase may be a pain to work with, but I'd never want to work for Dan Harmon if he acts like this all the time.

    :^:

  • y2jake215y2jake215 The style is radiation leak at mile island Also known as Chernobyl talk, listen for the sirensRegistered User regular
    You know, I never hear about CHUCK LORRE fighting with any stars behind the scenes..

    y7dKgGy.jpg
    maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
  • y2jake215y2jake215 The style is radiation leak at mile island Also known as Chernobyl talk, listen for the sirensRegistered User regular
    Spoiler:

    y7dKgGy.jpg
    maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
  • stevemarks44stevemarks44 Registered User regular
    Dan Harmon is the end all be all of every Community script. He vets every script and has final draft, with the writer getting credit for the episode that they conceptualized.

    This isn't an uncommon practice in shows that are written by community (no pun intended). Crediting is for legality and union sake.

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    steam ID: stevemarks44
  • Captain TragedyCaptain Tragedy Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    This pure speculation about Harmon's role at this point is interesting, but it has nothing to do with how the industry actually works.

    While writing for television is often a collaborative effort, there are incredibly specific WGA rules that must be followed regarding who gets credit for what. And these rules are critical because they're directly related to who gets paid, and who gets that next writing gig down the road.

    If Dan Harmon ever had more input into any one script than any single writer, then he would literally have a pure writing credit for that particular episode, and not "just" a creator credit. But he literally doesn't. So there literally isn't. Literally! (going for the twofer Archer and Community reference)


    Speculation mode now engaged.

    My impression is that a great many of the people who work on the show may indeed resent the fact that Harmon tries to manage personalities as if he's a director, or tries to constantly change the script as if he's still a writer. It's a classic case of a producer overstepping his bounds that you mostly hear about as industry gossip, and rarely even then, because if nothing else, Dan Harmon is still one of their bosses. So career-fear tends to quash this stuff early.

    The only reason we're hearing about this at all is because it involves Chevy Chase, who is already wealthy, doesn't need this job or any other in the future, and stopped giving any fucks about responsibly advancing his career since the 80s. If it were any other cast member, then this weird egotistical micromanaging by Harmon would have been met with smiles and muttering instead of overt middle fingers.

    Speculation mode disengaged.

    quora.com/Television-Production/How-does-the-writing-process-work-for-a-TV-show

    The credited writer of an episode is generally the one who wrote the first draft. Scripts of shows with writing staffs are contributed to by everyone on the staff, and the showrunner does final passes and rewrites to make sure the show matches a specific tone and direction, but the person who did the draft still gets sole credit. Otherwise, nearly every US TV show (especially comedies) would have 6-12 listed writers for every episode.

    Captain Tragedy on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    From the sounds of the Chase interview, he doesn't really identify with his character and Dan Harmon never had a clear grasp of what to really do with his character. Which isn't exactly a huge mind blowing insight. Pierce's character is definitely the odd man out in the show.

    That doesn't mean he deserves to be off. It means they should have spent more time figuring out exactly who his character was.

  • The_TuninatorThe_Tuninator Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    From the sounds of the Chase interview, he doesn't really identify with his character and Dan Harmon never had a clear grasp of what to really do with his character. Which isn't exactly a huge mind blowing insight. Pierce's character is definitely the odd man out in the show.

    That doesn't mean he deserves to be off. It means they should have spent more time figuring out exactly who his character was.

    Certain things Chase said-namely, that Greendale doesn't play a role on the show anymore-make me doubt that he has any idea what he's talking about in regard to the show, as it's patently false.

    I think taking either party's side in this affair is a mistake. It's two gigantic silly geese butting heads, that's all. Nobody should be defending Harmon or Chase here; Chase's reputation for being an intolerable goose to work with is legendary.

    The_Tuninator on
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    From the sounds of the Chase interview, he doesn't really identify with his character and Dan Harmon never had a clear grasp of what to really do with his character. Which isn't exactly a huge mind blowing insight. Pierce's character is definitely the odd man out in the show.

    That doesn't mean he deserves to be off. It means they should have spent more time figuring out exactly who his character was.

    The interview made me think the character has more in common with Chevy than he realizes.

  • The_TuninatorThe_Tuninator Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    From the sounds of the Chase interview, he doesn't really identify with his character and Dan Harmon never had a clear grasp of what to really do with his character. Which isn't exactly a huge mind blowing insight. Pierce's character is definitely the odd man out in the show.

    That doesn't mean he deserves to be off. It means they should have spent more time figuring out exactly who his character was.

    The interview made me think the character has more in common with Chevy than he realizes.

    I'd agree entirely. The whole thing read to me as an attempt for Chevy to get petty revenge with Harmon by taking shot after shot at his (and Chevy's) show. The way Chevy says it, it's like he has no pride in his work at all.

    They're both acting like petty children, and it's equally reprehensible in both cases.

    The_Tuninator on
  • Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    I gotta wonder, since I just heard about this.

    I'm looking at the date and its making me doubt this whole thing.

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    Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    Certain things Chase said-namely, that Greendale doesn't play a role on the show anymore-make me doubt that he has any idea what he's talking about in regard to the show, as it's patently false.

    I think taking either party's side in this affair is a mistake. It's two gigantic silly geese butting heads, that's all. Nobody should be defending Harmon or Chase here; Chase's reputation for being an intolerable goose to work with is legendary.

    Here's the thing. If audiences can't identify with Pierce's character, and the actor can't identify with Pierce's character, then maybe there's something wrong with how the character is written. That's a problem. One or the other I can understand. Not both.
    Do you have more fun playing Pierce the asshole or Pierce the bumbling old guy?
    I've never really come to grips with it ... I don't think that anybody has. [Laughs.] Viewers, the writers, me. I think, just by being older, I'm supposed to be more of a curmudgeon.

    That seems like a really appropriate question. The fact is, they do seem to juggle back and forth arbitrarily, from episode to episode.

    As for saying that Greendale doesn't play a role in the show anymore, what he actually said was "There are many times when this doesn't seem like a community college at all." And that seems to be a fair point. I mean, in the last two episodes, you had a wedding rehearsal in the school and a story about warring pillow forts. It's funny, and some parts are brilliant, but it is stretching the Community College concept a bit.

    We pretty much only three episodes this season that were related to classwork, which were the first three episodes.

  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X When you speak I hear muffinsRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Maybe Chevy literally does not understand direction the show has gone, and thinks no one else does either? With all it's meta stuff, the references, and the outlandish 'unrealistic' plots, maybe he just thinks it's not what he signed up for; comedy about a weird group of friends at college. Now it's all timelines and KFC spaceships and paintball and zombies, and it's hilarious, but it's a very different type of humour from season 1.

    I don't get how he could think he's the outsider, unimportant character though. Season 2's final run of episodes centered entirely on his descent into dickery.

    Dark Raven X on
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  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    One problem is that they don't really have many "Pierce + ?" episodes. With rare exception, it's always Pierce vs. the entire group, rather than one on one.

    We really needed a Pierce and Abed episode. That would have gone a long way to humanizing him.

    Edit: I mean, you didn't even have any Pierce/Troy episodes when they were still living together.

    Schrodinger on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    I feel like the movement away from classwork has been a natural transition, and honestly I think we'd all be a little tired of the show if it was just Jeff finding a new blowoff class and a new wacky professor every week.

  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    I feel like the movement away from classwork has been a natural transition, and honestly I think we'd all be a little tired of the show if it was just Jeff finding a new blowoff class and a new wacky professor every week.

    If those were the only possible directions you can go, than sure.

    For instance, how about a class where the characters actually take the subject matter seriously? Shocking, I know.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Maybe Chevy literally does not understand direction the show has gone, and thinks no one else does either? With all it's meta stuff, the references, and the outlandish 'unrealistic' plots, maybe he just thinks it's not what he signed up for; comedy about a weird group of friends at college. Now it's all timelines and KFC spaceships and paintball and zombies, and it's hilarious, but it's a very different type of humour from season 1.

    I don't get how he could think he's the outsider, unimportant character though. Season 2's final run of episodes centered entirely on his descent into dickery.

    The question answers itself. Pierce has always been a dick and the show hasn't done much to try to humanize him at all, which makes him a boring character. I can think of four "good" things he's done in three years: saving the spanish class' grades, helping Britta with smoking, helping Shirley with public speaking, and paying the winnings back to Greendale last paintball.

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    I feel like the movement away from classwork has been a natural transition, and honestly I think we'd all be a little tired of the show if it was just Jeff finding a new blowoff class and a new wacky professor every week.

    If those were the only possible directions you can go, than sure.

    For instance, how about a class where the characters actually take the subject matter seriously? Shocking, I know.

    You could do that for one episode, but try building an entire season around simply taking classes.

    Even the first season relied on departures like Modern Combat and the various dances and fairs in order to keep things going.

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    Maybe Chevy literally does not understand direction the show has gone, and thinks no one else does either? With all it's meta stuff, the references, and the outlandish 'unrealistic' plots, maybe he just thinks it's not what he signed up for; comedy about a weird group of friends at college. Now it's all timelines and KFC spaceships and paintball and zombies, and it's hilarious, but it's a very different type of humour from season 1.

    I don't get how he could think he's the outsider, unimportant character though. Season 2's final run of episodes centered entirely on his descent into dickery.

    The question answers itself. Pierce has always been a dick and the show hasn't done much to try to humanize him at all, which makes him a boring character. I can think of four "good" things he's done in three years: saving the spanish class' grades, helping Britta with smoking, helping Shirley with public speaking, and paying the winnings back to Greendale last paintball.

    Doing "good" things doesn't make you human.

    Being relatable makes you human, and I do think that Pierce's fumbling, sense of alienation, and persistent fear of being alone all accomplish that.

  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    You could do that for one episode, but try building an entire season around simply taking classes.

    Again, there are lots of different directions you can go. Taking something seriously is one. Using a class as a backdrop for another story is more obvious.

    If you can dedicate an entire episode to playing Dungeons and Dragons completely straight, I think you can handle a few classes.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Maybe Chevy literally does not understand direction the show has gone, and thinks no one else does either? With all it's meta stuff, the references, and the outlandish 'unrealistic' plots, maybe he just thinks it's not what he signed up for; comedy about a weird group of friends at college. Now it's all timelines and KFC spaceships and paintball and zombies, and it's hilarious, but it's a very different type of humour from season 1.

    I don't get how he could think he's the outsider, unimportant character though. Season 2's final run of episodes centered entirely on his descent into dickery.

    The question answers itself. Pierce has always been a dick and the show hasn't done much to try to humanize him at all, which makes him a boring character. I can think of four "good" things he's done in three years: saving the spanish class' grades, helping Britta with smoking, helping Shirley with public speaking, and paying the winnings back to Greendale last paintball.

    Doing "good" things doesn't make you human.

    Being relatable makes you human, and I do think that Pierce's fumbling, sense of alienation, and persistent fear of being alone all accomplish that.

    I mean, yeah, but he's a very static, one note character. Half of season two's conflict was "And this is how Pierce is a dick this week". There's been no effort put into varying Pierce, which is why I brought up "good" things he's done.

    Take How I Met Your Mother and Barney Stinson, he's a douchebag and an asshole, but he's also really loyal to his friends and capable of moments of empathy and the like. Pierce isn't nearly that balanced. This might be a naturally thing since he's played by Chevy Chase and is a lot like the actor, but as a character I really wish they'd do more with him or take him out of the main cast.

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  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X When you speak I hear muffinsRegistered User regular
    I actually think Pierce's exposure has given him much more depth than, say, Shirley. His character isn't a nice one, but it's there, and it has been explored plenty, while Chase comes across as feeling irrelevant to what's going on, and I'd argue that isn't the case at all.

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    I feel the same way about Shirley, too.

    Though perhaps the problem isn't as big as Chase makes it out to be, I'll cop to that.

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    How is a character who transitions from protagonist to antagonist and back again simply a one-note character? We also know more about him than any other character except perhaps for Abed.

    Jesus Christ, he goes from trying to destroy the study group to saving the entire school in the span of a few episodes, and somehow both plots seem completely natural for the character. That'd only be possible if the character was a complicated one.
    Take How I Met Your Mother and Barney Stinson, he's a douchebag and an asshole, but he's also really loyal to his friends and capable of moments of empathy and the like.

    You honestly can't think of any moments where Pierce exhibited loyalty or empathy?

    Robos A Go Go on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    Maybe Chevy literally does not understand direction the show has gone, and thinks no one else does either? With all it's meta stuff, the references, and the outlandish 'unrealistic' plots, maybe he just thinks it's not what he signed up for; comedy about a weird group of friends at college. Now it's all timelines and KFC spaceships and paintball and zombies, and it's hilarious, but it's a very different type of humour from season 1.

    I don't get how he could think he's the outsider, unimportant character though. Season 2's final run of episodes centered entirely on his descent into dickery.

    The question answers itself. Pierce has always been a dick and the show hasn't done much to try to humanize him at all, which makes him a boring character. I can think of four "good" things he's done in three years: saving the spanish class' grades, helping Britta with smoking, helping Shirley with public speaking, and paying the winnings back to Greendale last paintball.

    Doing "good" things doesn't make you human.

    Being relatable makes you human, and I do think that Pierce's fumbling, sense of alienation, and persistent fear of being alone all accomplish that.

    I mean, yeah, but he's a very static, one note character. Half of season two's conflict was "And this is how Pierce is a dick this week". There's been no effort put into varying Pierce, which is why I brought up "good" things he's done.

    Take How I Met Your Mother and Barney Stinson, he's a douchebag and an asshole, but he's also really loyal to his friends and capable of moments of empathy and the like. Pierce isn't nearly that balanced. This might be a naturally thing since he's played by Chevy Chase and is a lot like the actor, but as a character I really wish they'd do more with him or take him out of the main cast.

    The problem is worse than that. He alternates from evil mastermind to incompetent bungler, based on the story. The writers simply don't have a clear grasp of who he is, so they change it based on the story. You can fault the actor for a lot of things, but you can't fault him for confused writing.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Maybe Chevy literally does not understand direction the show has gone, and thinks no one else does either? With all it's meta stuff, the references, and the outlandish 'unrealistic' plots, maybe he just thinks it's not what he signed up for; comedy about a weird group of friends at college. Now it's all timelines and KFC spaceships and paintball and zombies, and it's hilarious, but it's a very different type of humour from season 1.

    I don't get how he could think he's the outsider, unimportant character though. Season 2's final run of episodes centered entirely on his descent into dickery.

    The question answers itself. Pierce has always been a dick and the show hasn't done much to try to humanize him at all, which makes him a boring character. I can think of four "good" things he's done in three years: saving the spanish class' grades, helping Britta with smoking, helping Shirley with public speaking, and paying the winnings back to Greendale last paintball.

    Doing "good" things doesn't make you human.

    Being relatable makes you human, and I do think that Pierce's fumbling, sense of alienation, and persistent fear of being alone all accomplish that.

    I mean, yeah, but he's a very static, one note character. Half of season two's conflict was "And this is how Pierce is a dick this week". There's been no effort put into varying Pierce, which is why I brought up "good" things he's done.

    Take How I Met Your Mother and Barney Stinson, he's a douchebag and an asshole, but he's also really loyal to his friends and capable of moments of empathy and the like. Pierce isn't nearly that balanced. This might be a naturally thing since he's played by Chevy Chase and is a lot like the actor, but as a character I really wish they'd do more with him or take him out of the main cast.

    The problem is worse than that. He alternates from evil mastermind to incompetent bungler, based on the story. The writers simply don't have a clear grasp of who he is, so they change it based on the story. You can fault the actor for a lot of things, but you can't fault him for confused writing.

    You can have a consistent character whose an evil mastermind and an incompetent in other areas, the incompetency comes from his flaws. Pierce's strength is being able to think about complex schemes, he's not good at communicating with people (especially the group).

    Harry Dresden on
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    How is a character who transitions from protagonist to antagonist and back again simply a one-note character? We also know more about him than any other character except perhaps for Abed.

    Jesus Christ, he goes from trying to destroy the study group to saving the entire school in the span of a few episodes, and somehow both plots seem completely natural for the character. That'd only be possible if the character was a complicated one.
    Take How I Met Your Mother and Barney Stinson, he's a douchebag and an asshole, but he's also really loyal to his friends and capable of moments of empathy and the like.

    You honestly can't think of any moments where Pierce exhibited loyalty or empathy?

    I can, the four I listed. I don't think that it's a natural switch back and forth is what I'm saying, it makes sense within the episode because most episodes are really well written, but to me it's not very consistent. And no, being able to jump back and forth depending on what the plot requires is not an automatic signal of a deep and complex character.

    It goes back to how I don't think the show is as good as it was in Season 1. In Season 1, Pierce was exactly as you describe him, but since then he's plateaued and become whatever the plot needs him to be. I still enjoy the show, and it doesn't bother when I'm watching it, but it's still an issue in my opinion.

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  • The_TuninatorThe_Tuninator Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Here's the thing. If audiences can't identify with Pierce's character, and the actor can't identify with Pierce's character, then maybe there's something wrong with how the character is written. That's a problem. One or the other I can understand. Not both.

    Chevy clearly doesn't understand the show. Again, in that same interview he levies the charge that Greendale isn't relevant to the show anymore, when in fact it plays a major role in 8/13 episodes so far.

    Given how he doesn't seem to understand basic truths about the show, I don't see why we should take his word regarding his character as gospel, especially when he's clearly attempting to make Harmon look bad for revenge.

    As for saying that Greendale doesn't play a role in the show anymore, what he actually said was "There are many times when this doesn't seem like a community college at all." And that seems to be a fair point. I mean, in the last two episodes, you had a wedding rehearsal in the school and a story about warring pillow forts. It's funny, and some parts are brilliant, but it is stretching the Community College concept a bit.

    We pretty much only three episodes this season that were related to classwork, which were the first three episodes.

    Nope. Out of this season, the following episodes were related to classwork or some other aspect of Greendale as a community college in addition to the first three you've already cited:

    -Horror Fiction: the episode occurs because Britta is administering psych tests for a class
    -Advanced Gay: one of the episode's two primary plots revolves around the Air Conditioning Repair Annex attempting to recruit Troy
    -Documentary Filmmaking Redux: the school's Dean is making a commercial
    -Regional Holiday Music: the gang gets roped into doing the school's Christmas pageant as a stand-in for its Glee club

    Greendale also plays at least a minor role in "Foosball", "Urban Matrimony", and "Digital Exploration", and we know that Greendale also plays a significant role in these upcoming episodes:
    Spoiler:

    Fact is that the show needs to begin branching out; if it does indeed get a fifth season, the characters will need to have a life outside Greendale, and it makes sense to begin establishing now.

    The_Tuninator on
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    It goes back to how I don't think the show is as good as it was in Season 1. In Season 1, Pierce was exactly as you describe him, but since then he's plateaued and become whatever the plot needs him to be. I still enjoy the show, and it doesn't bother when I'm watching it, but it's still an issue in my opinion.

    They really need to lay off the meta soon. Hopefully next season they'll go back to season 1 style after
    Spoiler:
    . The chances are slim this will happen, unfortunately.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    There is a definite relation between the increase in meta and the decrease in my enjoyment of the show. I still like it, but it gets way too far up its own ass sometimes.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Death Groupie Registered User regular
    How is a character who transitions from protagonist to antagonist and back again simply a one-note character? We also know more about him than any other character except perhaps for Abed.

    Jesus Christ, he goes from trying to destroy the study group to saving the entire school in the span of a few episodes, and somehow both plots seem completely natural for the character. That'd only be possible if the character was a complicated one.
    Take How I Met Your Mother and Barney Stinson, he's a douchebag and an asshole, but he's also really loyal to his friends and capable of moments of empathy and the like.

    You honestly can't think of any moments where Pierce exhibited loyalty or empathy?

    I can, the four I listed. I don't think that it's a natural switch back and forth is what I'm saying, it makes sense within the episode because most episodes are really well written, but to me it's not very consistent. And no, being able to jump back and forth depending on what the plot requires is not an automatic signal of a deep and complex character.

    It goes back to how I don't think the show is as good as it was in Season 1. In Season 1, Pierce was exactly as you describe him, but since then he's plateaued and become whatever the plot needs him to be. I still enjoy the show, and it doesn't bother when I'm watching it, but it's still an issue in my opinion.

    Don't forget, he lied to the group to get Jeff admitted back in during the Season 3 opener.

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  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    Nope. Out of this season, the following episodes were related to classwork or some other aspect of Greendale as a community college in addition to the first three you've already cited:

    -Horror Fiction: the episode occurs because Britta is administering psych tests for a class
    -Advanced Gay: one of the episode's two primary plots revolves around the Air Conditioning Repair Annex attempting to recruit Troy
    -Documentary Filmmaking Redux: the school's Dean is making a commercial
    -Regional Holiday Music: the gang gets roped into doing the school's Christmas pageant as a stand-in for its Glee club

    Greendale also plays at least a minor role in "Foosball", "Urban Matrimony", and "Digital Exploration", and we know that Greendale also plays a significant role in these upcoming episodes:
    Spoiler:

    These are things happening at Greendale. I can't really say that any of them really captures the feel of a Community College, however exaggerated. I mean, seriously, you're citing the Halloween episode? 7 zany stories that have absolutely nothing to do with reality?

    Air Conditioning Repair school is about a secret society, not really a class in any relatable sense. The Documentary episode, again, was about the Dean's descent into insanity. And the Glee Club episode was nothing more than an attempt to make fun of a more popular TV show.

    The Documentary Episode was brilliant, and the Gay episode was very good. But neither captures the essence of Community college.

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