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[Canada] Politics of the Democratic Friedmanite Republic of the Government of Harper

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Posts

  • CorporateGoonCorporateGoon Registered User regular
    The people of Alberta are well within their rights to vote for a party that promises to fully support and even subsidize their major industry. If their only concern is making oil money, then the Tories are probably a good way to go at the federal and provincial levels. And I can't honestly say that I wouldn't vote for someone who was basically promising me free money. In this economy, it'd be really hard to turn down.

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    BlazeFire wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    psyck0 wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    One of the main reason people vote con. federally in Alberta is that in the last few elections every other party has used the oil sands as a campaign point. More regulation and more federal control. when 60% of the province works in oil & gas or a related industry what the hell do you think they are going to do? It's like someone in the maritime platforming on a anti-fishing platform or in southern ontario being against manufacturing. Look at our Mayor in Calgary. Liberal academic Muslim that most people kind of assume is gay. And you know what? the average Calgarian loves him. Toronto keeps trying to send us Rob ford in exchange.

    I voted con. for a long time but I am just can't anymore. the problem is no other party in my eyes deserves a vote. I find the NDP's socialist platform terrible, the liberals still think they are the opposition and the green's are ridiculous.

    Maybe think of something beyond just their jobs, like the future of the entire fucking planet? That's what I expect them to do. Think slightly more long term than their next fucking paycheque. I mean, I get that they depend entirely on the oil sands for the province's economy (which is entirely their own fucking fault, they've had decades to diversify) and we can't just cut that off at the knees, but they refuse to even CONTEMPLATE anything other than extract every last ounce of oil from the ground, damn the consequence.

    And what the hell is wrong with the NDP, other than being "socialist"? All the data I have ever seen shows convincingly that socialism optimises the wealth and health of the entire population, at the cost of a few less billionaires.

    So you want people to basically willingly throw away the ability to feed their families because you're smarter than them. That's gonna totally change their mind.

    Slavery, open air atomic testing, dumping factory run-off into rivers and all sorts of other shit fed alot of people's families too. What's your point again?

    He doesn't have one.

    It's a load of crap to even claim the average worker in Alberta is 'supporting their family'. More like 'supporting their trophy wife who they will dump for a 20-something fling in 10~ years', assuming they haven't been laid-off and dumped themselves.

    Even in the case of someone in a stable-for-now family, you're 'supporting' them in within an unstable economy. Do you think the oil sands will offer jobs forever? If not, where are your children going to get their jobs? If you're not sure of the answer to question, you're not really supporting them - you're just being a temporary breadwinner to prop-up an illusion of responsibility while guaranteeing that the next generation will grow-up destitute.

    Was this a joke?

    It's an exaggeration, but in my experience, more or less what the average oilfield hand doing 2 weeks in 2 weeks out does. Sweeps-up a young lady, knocks them up, showers them with some easy cash - and then either the music stops during spring break-up or the party goes on but someone goes looking for a new dance partner.

    Happens all of the fucking time.

    TOG Solid wrote:
    If that guy wasn't white he would have gotten popped by so many tasers simultaneously that Marvel could use that as the new origin for Electro.
  • hippofanthippofant Registered User regular
    That's... that's not at all trophy wives. That's migrant young men going leaving home to work in a well-paying, tough, manual labour job out in rural hinterlands after payday. That's a global phenomenon.

  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    The Ender wrote: »

    It's an exaggeration, but in my experience, more or less what the average oilfield hand doing 2 weeks in 2 weeks out does. Sweeps-up a young lady, knocks them up, showers them with some easy cash - and then either the music stops during spring break-up or the party goes on but someone goes looking for a new dance partner.

    Happens all of the fucking time.

    As fucked as it sounds, this does happen all the time

    If you live in Alberta or have lived in Alberta you probably know of at least some people like this. Huge money + gone working for weeks at a time

    Al_wat on
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    My sister just had that happen to her. In fairness, her ex-husband was at least honest about it: he came home one day, confessed he no longer loved her and wanted to see someone else, and asked for a divorce.

    Still pretty devastating, but hey, life happens and the dude didn't engage in infidelity.


    The oil patch is fucked-up, and people using their 'family' to try and shield it can go to Hell.

    TOG Solid wrote:
    If that guy wasn't white he would have gotten popped by so many tasers simultaneously that Marvel could use that as the new origin for Electro.
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Jesus there are some ignorant self righteous over educated under life experienced people in this thread.

    Your right you holy then though Eco-thumper. All the thousand of people that work 80 hour days doing hard fucking manual labour in the rigs go home and fuck anything that moves and parties their life away. None of them actually care about spending time with their families during off weeks and spring breakup. You know soooo much about that life apparently.

    steam_sig.png
    gamertag: Canadianllama
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Jesus there are some ignorant self righteous over educated under life experienced people in this thread.

    Your right you holy then though Eco-thumper. All the thousand of people that work 80 hour days doing hard fucking manual labour in the rigs go home and fuck anything that moves and parties their life away. None of them actually care about spending time with their families during off weeks and spring breakup. You know soooo much about that life apparently.

    I do know a lot about that life, thanks. All my friends & family members, aside from my brother, went to work in the oil patch. A few of them went to the old Fletchers plant when things didn't pan out in Norman Wells.

    It's not like that for everybody, obviously. But it's like that a lot of the time. Get butthurt about it all you like; people always get defensive and crude when they're told uncomfortable things they know are true.

    TOG Solid wrote:
    If that guy wasn't white he would have gotten popped by so many tasers simultaneously that Marvel could use that as the new origin for Electro.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Jesus there are some ignorant self righteous over educated under life experienced people in this thread.

    Your right you holy then though Eco-thumper. All the thousand of people that work 80 hour days doing hard fucking manual labour in the rigs go home and fuck anything that moves and parties their life away. None of them actually care about spending time with their families during off weeks and spring breakup. You know soooo much about that life apparently.

    Well, at least you are finally being honest.

    Damn elitist educated environmentalists and your facts and numbers!

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Well, in fairness, I don't have the statistics for, say, Albertan divorce rates, so I don't know if I'd be vindicated by an empirical study in that regard. So, no, it's not facts and numbers coming from me - just my personal experience and personal revulsion of the sort of 'family' adhesive the oil patch serves as.

    TOG Solid wrote:
    If that guy wasn't white he would have gotten popped by so many tasers simultaneously that Marvel could use that as the new origin for Electro.
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    What your the only one that can use hyperbole?

    steam_sig.png
    gamertag: Canadianllama
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    The Ender wrote: »
    Well, in fairness, I don't have the statistics for, say, Albertan divorce rates, so I don't know if I'd be vindicated by an empirical study in that regard. So, no, it's not facts and numbers coming from me - just my personal experience and personal revulsion of the sort of 'family' adhesive the oil patch serves as.

    I wasn't talking about your comments re: divorce rates and such.

    I mean the minute something you said poked him, he dropped the facade and went straight to the old standards of "elitist educated liberal" and "know-nothing environmentalist with no common sense" and all those other idiotic anti-intellectual memes out of the Conservative/Republican playbook.

    It's very telling.

    shryke on
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Disco, do you even live in Alberta?

    TOG Solid wrote:
    If that guy wasn't white he would have gotten popped by so many tasers simultaneously that Marvel could use that as the new origin for Electro.
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Jesus there are some ignorant self righteous over educated under life experienced people in this thread.

    Your right you holy then though Eco-thumper. All the thousand of people that work 80 hour days doing hard fucking manual labour in the rigs go home and fuck anything that moves and parties their life away. None of them actually care about spending time with their families during off weeks and spring breakup. You know soooo much about that life apparently.

    I'm not defending anyone here but myself, but don't take my statements to be some disparagement of all oil workers. Obviously a lot of them are responsible people who put in a lot of effort to make their family lives work and aren't scumbags.

    But I would say compared to other industries the type of (admittedly somewhat exaggerated) situation that The Ender describes happens more commonly with rig workers.

    I'm basing this from my experiences living in Alberta. In Ontario, at least around where I am from, there isn't really an industry where you make stupid amounts of money and get shipped off for weeks at a time without seeing your family. So I really noticed when I observed these things in Alberta. I mean, the "rig pig" stereotype doesn't come from nowhere.

    And again, I am not saying I disrespect oil workers or that all of them are scumbags or anything like "Albertans don't respect their families" or anything like that.

  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Disco, do you even live in Alberta?

    I do actually. Live in Calgary. Am originally from Montreal.

    The page on page blame that Alberta is the root of all evil in Canada is getting annoying.

    steam_sig.png
    gamertag: Canadianllama
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    Well, in fairness, I don't have the statistics for, say, Albertan divorce rates, so I don't know if I'd be vindicated by an empirical study in that regard. So, no, it's not facts and numbers coming from me - just my personal experience and personal revulsion of the sort of 'family' adhesive the oil patch serves as.


    I wasn't talking about your comments re: divorce rates and such.

    I mean the minute something you said poked him, he dropped the facade and went straight to the old standards of "elitist educated liberal" and "know-nothing environmentalist with no common sense" and all those other idiotic anti-intellectual memes out of the Conservative/Republican playbook.

    It's very telling.

    What I can't play into the stereotype that you think we all are here in wild rose country?

    You keep ragging on the fact that we are defending the main reason for Alberta's wealth. I wonder why Albertans get annoyed by that.

    steam_sig.png
    gamertag: Canadianllama
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    Disco, do you even live in Alberta?

    I do actually. Live in Calgary. Am originally from Montreal.

    The page on page blame that Alberta is the root of all evil in Canada is getting annoying.

    Then Albertans can smarten the fuck up and move into the 21st century alongside the rest of the Goddamn planet. "Oh, but food for my family!" is using your wife and children as a shield, and if you want to use dirty tricks like that I'll happily call you out on what 'family' tends to mean in Alberta.

    TOG Solid wrote:
    If that guy wasn't white he would have gotten popped by so many tasers simultaneously that Marvel could use that as the new origin for Electro.
  • AridholAridhol Registered User regular
    I believe the conversation was that the majority voting public was the problem there, then you specifically called someone a holier than thou eco-thumper.

    One is a statistics based commentary on the general voting populace and one is an attack on an individual.

  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    hawkbox wrote: »
    psyck0 wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    One of the main reason people vote con. federally in Alberta is that in the last few elections every other party has used the oil sands as a campaign point. More regulation and more federal control. when 60% of the province works in oil & gas or a related industry what the hell do you think they are going to do? It's like someone in the maritime platforming on a anti-fishing platform or in southern ontario being against manufacturing. Look at our Mayor in Calgary. Liberal academic Muslim that most people kind of assume is gay. And you know what? the average Calgarian loves him. Toronto keeps trying to send us Rob ford in exchange.

    I voted con. for a long time but I am just can't anymore. the problem is no other party in my eyes deserves a vote. I find the NDP's socialist platform terrible, the liberals still think they are the opposition and the green's are ridiculous.

    Maybe think of something beyond just their jobs, like the future of the entire fucking planet? That's what I expect them to do. Think slightly more long term than their next fucking paycheque. I mean, I get that they depend entirely on the oil sands for the province's economy (which is entirely their own fucking fault, they've had decades to diversify) and we can't just cut that off at the knees, but they refuse to even CONTEMPLATE anything other than extract every last ounce of oil from the ground, damn the consequence.

    And what the hell is wrong with the NDP, other than being "socialist"? All the data I have ever seen shows convincingly that socialism optimises the wealth and health of the entire population, at the cost of a few less billionaires.

    So you want people to basically willingly throw away the ability to feed their families because you're smarter than them. That's gonna totally change their mind.

    No. I want them to take tax increases (when they pay stupidly low amounts of tax) to cover the cost of not destroying the ecosystem of the entire province, and setting up an economy that will be sustainable past when the oil runs out. Hardly anyone in Alberta is paycheque to paycheque. They don't even have any homeless because they just put them on a bus ticket to BC and let us try to look after them, because we actually give a fuck about helping people. Hell, they don't even NEED tax increases- they're running a pretty good surplus as is. Just vote for a party that will spend that money on something with a fucking vision of the FUTURE.

    psyck0 on
    Big Man in training.
    steam_sig.png
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    No. I want them to take tax increases (when they pay stupidly low amounts of tax) to cover the cost of not destroying the ecosystem of the entire province, and setting up an economy that will be sustainable past when the oil runs out. Hardly anyone in Alberta is paycheque to paycheque. Hell, they don't even NEED tax increases- they're running a pretty good surplus as is. Just vote for a party that will spend that money on something with a fucking vision of the FUTURE.

    Well, in fairness, a lot of Albertans do run paycheck to paycheck. On the other hand, it's because they stretch those paychecks as far as they'll go. Giant house, giant truck, multiple children, maxed credit cards, etc.

    TOG Solid wrote:
    If that guy wasn't white he would have gotten popped by so many tasers simultaneously that Marvel could use that as the new origin for Electro.
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    psyck0 wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    psyck0 wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    One of the main reason people vote con. federally in Alberta is that in the last few elections every other party has used the oil sands as a campaign point. More regulation and more federal control. when 60% of the province works in oil & gas or a related industry what the hell do you think they are going to do? It's like someone in the maritime platforming on a anti-fishing platform or in southern ontario being against manufacturing. Look at our Mayor in Calgary. Liberal academic Muslim that most people kind of assume is gay. And you know what? the average Calgarian loves him. Toronto keeps trying to send us Rob ford in exchange.

    I voted con. for a long time but I am just can't anymore. the problem is no other party in my eyes deserves a vote. I find the NDP's socialist platform terrible, the liberals still think they are the opposition and the green's are ridiculous.

    Maybe think of something beyond just their jobs, like the future of the entire fucking planet? That's what I expect them to do. Think slightly more long term than their next fucking paycheque. I mean, I get that they depend entirely on the oil sands for the province's economy (which is entirely their own fucking fault, they've had decades to diversify) and we can't just cut that off at the knees, but they refuse to even CONTEMPLATE anything other than extract every last ounce of oil from the ground, damn the consequence.

    And what the hell is wrong with the NDP, other than being "socialist"? All the data I have ever seen shows convincingly that socialism optimises the wealth and health of the entire population, at the cost of a few less billionaires.

    So you want people to basically willingly throw away the ability to feed their families because you're smarter than them. That's gonna totally change their mind.

    No. I want them to take tax increases (when they pay stupidly low amounts of tax) to cover the cost of not destroying the ecosystem of the entire province, and setting up an economy that will be sustainable past when the oil runs out. Hardly anyone in Alberta is paycheque to paycheque. Hell, they don't even NEED tax increases- they're running a pretty good surplus as is. Just vote for a party that will spend that money on something with a fucking vision of the FUTURE.

    See this is a well reasoned argument. Much better than calling a hole province a bunch of un educated hicks.

    steam_sig.png
    gamertag: Canadianllama
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Disco11 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    Well, in fairness, I don't have the statistics for, say, Albertan divorce rates, so I don't know if I'd be vindicated by an empirical study in that regard. So, no, it's not facts and numbers coming from me - just my personal experience and personal revulsion of the sort of 'family' adhesive the oil patch serves as.


    I wasn't talking about your comments re: divorce rates and such.

    I mean the minute something you said poked him, he dropped the facade and went straight to the old standards of "elitist educated liberal" and "know-nothing environmentalist with no common sense" and all those other idiotic anti-intellectual memes out of the Conservative/Republican playbook.

    It's very telling.

    What I can't play into the stereotype that you think we all are here in wild rose country?

    You keep ragging on the fact that we are defending the main reason for Alberta's wealth. I wonder why Albertans get annoyed by that.

    You can play up that you're an anti-intellectual idiot all you want. I'm not gonna stop you, only point it out.

    And, again, people made money off alot of shitty things. That doesn't mean anything. The Oil Sands as currently used are a fucking cancer on the local and global environment and Alberta's obsession with avoiding economic diversification is utterly stupid.

    shryke on
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    You guys have to admit there has been a lot of what I would call vitriolic sentiments regarding Alberta in the past few pages.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't express those views or that they aren't valid opinions but at least don't pretend that this isn't the case.

    I mean it was kind of inevitable that someone from Alberta was going to blow up in the face of a lot of these posts.

    I'm expecting someone to flame this post, but I don't care.

    There have also been a lot of valid criticisms as well.

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    See this is a well reasoned argument. Much better than calling a hole province a bunch of un educated hicks.

    I didn't call anyone uneducated. Most Albertans know exactly what they are doing, which is much worse.
    I mean it was kind of inevitable that someone from Alberta was going to blow up in the face of a lot of these posts.

    Yeah, probably, though I don't honestly see why they do. People take this shit personally all of the time: "But I am not like that!"

    Yes, thus all of my qualifying statements about how not every Albertan is like that. But it's a big fucking issue, and it happens a lot, and if you live in Alberta and know people in the oil patch you know it happens a lot and are a liar if you say it doesn't.

    The Ender on
    TOG Solid wrote:
    If that guy wasn't white he would have gotten popped by so many tasers simultaneously that Marvel could use that as the new origin for Electro.
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    See this is a well reasoned argument. Much better than calling a hole province a bunch of un educated hicks.

    I didn't call anyone uneducated. Most Albertans know exactly what they are doing, which is much worse.
    I mean it was kind of inevitable that someone from Alberta was going to blow up in the face of a lot of these posts.

    Yeah, probably, though I don't honestly see why they do. People take this shit personally all of the time: "But I am not like that!"

    Yes, thus all of my qualifying statements about how not every Albertan is like that. But it's a big fucking issue, and it happens a lot, and if you live in Alberta and know people in the oil patch you know it happens a lot and are a liar if you say it doesn't.

    Put it this way. On these boards, in the papers and on the web we have the honor of having other provinces telling us how to run our province. Does bc or Ontario have to deal with this? Does Quebec? It gets to be trying.

    steam_sig.png
    gamertag: Canadianllama
  • edited April 2012
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Put it this way. On these boards, in the papers and on the web we have the honor of having other provinces telling us how to run our province. Does bc or Ontario have to deal with this? Does Quebec? It gets to be trying.

    Well, Quebec bashing is fairly common :P

    starlime on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    See this is a well reasoned argument. Much better than calling a hole province a bunch of un educated hicks.

    I didn't call anyone uneducated. Most Albertans know exactly what they are doing, which is much worse.
    I mean it was kind of inevitable that someone from Alberta was going to blow up in the face of a lot of these posts.

    Yeah, probably, though I don't honestly see why they do. People take this shit personally all of the time: "But I am not like that!"

    Yes, thus all of my qualifying statements about how not every Albertan is like that. But it's a big fucking issue, and it happens a lot, and if you live in Alberta and know people in the oil patch you know it happens a lot and are a liar if you say it doesn't.

    Put it this way. On these boards, in the papers and on the web we have the honor of having other provinces telling us how to run our province. Does bc or Ontario have to deal with this? Does Quebec? It gets to be trying.

    Except what everyone is saying is the same shit a bunch of Albertans are saying.

  • ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Have you ever lived in the province for a long period of time? Hell, have you even so much as driven through it?

    I have lived in the province my whole life: moved from a rural farming community called Haynes outside of the Nova Joffree Plant to Sylvan Lake to Red Deer to Edmonton to Calgary to Cochrane and then, finally, I managed to get out.

    It is a shit hole, dotted with shitty little towns and two burned-out old cities that aren't safe to walk through at night. It's a frozen wasteland for, what, 8 of 12 months in the year? The entire province is fanatically hydrocarbon friendly - this is the busiest bar in downtown Edmonton (or it was when I was there; Whyte obviously had other venues, but Whyte services the suburbs more than the city core), and SAIT's facilities are all bought & paid for by Suncor & Enbridge. the U of C and SAIT regularly lease-out space for pseudo-scientific bullshit spiels held by Enbridge that try to 'debunk' global warming and a variety of other environmentally detrimental effects of shovelling dead stuff out of the ground to burn.

    There's no diversity, in anything. If you think there's diversity, it's because you've never been outside of Alberta.


    Doesn't mean you were a participant just because you were a resident. I wasn't. But most Albertans most definitely were.

    First, congratulations on answering a question not even remotely directed to you.

    You lived in the province your whole life, but don't currently live there? Interesting.

    Edmonton and Calgary are perfectly safe to walk at night, like most large cities however, there are areas you wouldn't want to be after a certain time. This is not really restricted to Alberta, or even Canada for that matter. Through the course of my job I have had to spend ~six months living around Montreal, there are definitely places there I didn't venture late at night - is Quebec an utter shit hole because of this? No, and to believe it is so is completely ridiculous. As far as Edmonton or Calgary being burnt out old cities, each of them is less than 150 years old, which - in relation to other cities around the world - is hardly old. For being burnt out, they seem to support large, growing populations in diverse employment fields with some very well respect postsecondary institutes. I may be wrong, but I am fairly certain the U of A is a leading cancer research institute in the world... So, I may not have understood what you meant by "burnt out" but I seriously doubt you had any clear intention beyond your own opinion.

    Fanatically hydrocarbon friendly: Well no shit. Seeing as the oil and gas industry is one of the major contributors to the economy, and many Albertans are employed in it, there will no doubt be support for it. You really have no point here. At all. This is like blaming restaurants in Quebec for having a particular French/Quebecois flare to them.

    SAIT's facilities/Suncor/Sponsorship & discourse: This happens at every university/postsecondary institute and is hardly unique to Alberta. Businesses will lend support to institutes that train people in fields from which they employ. It is often how universities get funding to expand and for research.
    Additionally, just because a company sponsors a talk on global warming, and presents data that is contrary to your opinion, does not really mean that information is incorrect. Sure, if they are trying to say that global warming is bullshit, they are likely out to lunch. However, one of the reasons to have research/education facilities is to promote discourse; discourse which may even anger you or conflict wildly with the viewpoint you have generated via your sources. Welcome to higher education.

    And I do think there is diversity, not because I haven't been out of Alberta, as I have (nice offering of an all or nothing choice, shows you definitely support discussion on the topic). While yes, the province does rely heavily on oil and gas, which will no doubt cripple it when we run out - that is a reality. However, Alberta also supports an entertainment industry, a postsecondary/research sector, tourism industry, agriculture industry and manufacturing industry. Granted, they are not as large as the oil and gas industry, nor can they ever hope to be, the oil industry is just too much of a moneymaker.

    So, ultimately, I'm a little confused about your point. It mainly sounds like (this is a guess) you moved around Alberta with your family, came of age, decided that you hated the place your grew up in (which many youths do), then left. In your mind you seem to have formed this opinion that Alberta is somehow a shit hole just because you don't like it. I really hope you can understand why that is a little bit ridiculous.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Put it this way. On these boards, in the papers and on the web we have the honor of having other provinces telling us how to run our province. Does bc or Ontario have to deal with this? Does Quebec? It gets to be trying.

    Yes, other provinces deal with these issues all of the time. Do you not remember our wonderful premier weighing-in on what should happen to all of the auto workers, for example? Or what should happen to all of the separatists in Quebec? And there's always some punch-up between Alberta and BC about jurisdiction over the parks, who has the right to do what with which trees, who should cover the cost of maintaining the mountain roads, etc.

    I mean, do you want Alberta to operate as part of a national whole and reap the benefits of being part of that whole or not? If you do, why should Alberta not have to follow the rules like other provinces?

    TOG Solid wrote:
    If that guy wasn't white he would have gotten popped by so many tasers simultaneously that Marvel could use that as the new origin for Electro.
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    See this is a well reasoned argument. Much better than calling a hole province a bunch of un educated hicks.

    I didn't call anyone uneducated. Most Albertans know exactly what they are doing, which is much worse.
    I mean it was kind of inevitable that someone from Alberta was going to blow up in the face of a lot of these posts.

    Yeah, probably, though I don't honestly see why they do. People take this shit personally all of the time: "But I am not like that!"

    Yes, thus all of my qualifying statements about how not every Albertan is like that. But it's a big fucking issue, and it happens a lot, and if you live in Alberta and know people in the oil patch you know it happens a lot and are a liar if you say it doesn't.

    Put it this way. On these boards, in the papers and on the web we have the honor of having other provinces telling us how to run our province. Does bc or Ontario have to deal with this? Does Quebec? It gets to be trying.

    Does BC have to deal with this? Only all the fucking time - a very common topic has to do with the Pacific Ocean and other water ways that are the life blood of this province; how that relates to shipping, fishing, forestry, clean drinking water for communities, sewage treatment, etc and the federal government is all up in that. And here comes the various pipeline projects where apparently its not people who live here that are objecting (bullshit). Bad extraction (forestry / mining / oil / etc) practices hurt water sheds all the damn time to the determent of anyone whose health and by extension livelihood depend upon.

    Every province has to put up with what others think of what they are up to all the time, grow up. Or don't and suffer the self made man / man made consequences.

    steam_sig.png
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    First, congratulations on answering a question not even remotely directed to you.

    You lived in the province your whole life, but don't currently live there? Interesting.

    That's correct, and it's not that interesting. I moved to Vancouver Island this year. Won't be moving back.
    Edmonton and Calgary are perfectly safe to walk at night, like most large cities

    Euhuhuhuhuhu.

    I did canvassing in Edmonton until about 11:00~ at night every night for about a year (at the tail end of having lived there a grand total of 3~ years, and not walking around at night). It was not safe to walk from almost any downtown neighbourhood to the small office building where we were headquartered, nor was it safe to walk back either an apartment I lived in on Jasper Ave or a later apartment I lived in behind Grant Mac University.

    Got mugged once, came home to a murder in the apartment directly above mine on Jasper Ave (victim's blood was on my bathroom floor, so I effectively discovered the murder scene for the RCMP) once. In one year.

    Not. Safe.

    The suburbs are probably more or less fine, but downtown Edmonton is violent and chock full of tweakers.


    Calgary was slightly better than Edmonton. I didn't actually get mugged in Calgary, but then again I was living in Tuscany, not downtown. Headed back on the trains at night, every night, there'd be a crowd of students and some elderly folks crowded together on one side of a car and on the other side would be some tweakers. Fun shit.

    By 'burned out', I mean the cores are surrounded by run down neighbourhoods and businesses. It's visually apparent when you've parted company with the pristine shopping centres and entered the neglected old neighbourhoods that've been left to rot by the city.

    And no, not every city on the planet is like that, at all.
    Fanatically hydrocarbon friendly: Well no shit. Seeing as the oil and gas industry is one of the major contributors to the economy, and many Albertans are employed in it, there will no doubt be support for it. You really have no point here. At all. This is like blaming restaurants in Quebec for having a particular French/Quebecois flare to them.

    Fanaticism is always irrational. Who cares if that's the primary source of the province's wealth? And it's not the same as a cultural difference - we're talking about a commodity, not a lifestyle or language preference.

    It's disturbing to watch people shelter oil companies at all odds, at any cost, and in many cases almost deify them.
    SAIT's facilities/Suncor/Sponsorship & discourse: This happens at every university/postsecondary institute and is hardly unique to Alberta.
    Businesses will lend support to institutes that train people in fields from which they employ. It is often how universities get funding to expand and for research.
    Additionally, just because a company sponsors a talk on global warming, and presents data that is contrary to your opinion, does not really mean that information is incorrect. Sure, if they are trying to say that global warming is bullshit, they are likely out to lunch. However, one of the reasons to have research/education facilities is to promote discourse; discourse which may even anger you or conflict wildly with the viewpoint you have generated via your sources. Welcome to higher education.

    So, you don't think it creates a conflict of interests when an educational institute that is supposed to be offering objective instruction to students is handed large sums of money by a lobbying group? Because in some circles we might refer to that sort of thing as a 'bribe'.

    And I'm pretty sure it's not common in other universities. Can you cite specific examples?

    It's not 'my opinon' that Enbridge disagrees with: it's the overwhelming scientific consensus. Science is following the evidence to a conclusion; science is not engaging in a 'debate' over well established principles for the purpose of making an issue seem uncertain to the public.
    And I do think there is diversity, not because I haven't been out of Alberta, as I have (nice offering of an all or nothing choice, shows you definitely support discussion on the topic). While yes, the province does rely heavily on oil and gas, which will no doubt cripple it when we run out - that is a reality. However, Alberta also supports an entertainment industry, a postsecondary/research sector, tourism industry, agriculture industry and manufacturing industry. Granted, they are not as large as the oil and gas industry, nor can they ever hope to be, the oil industry is just too much of a moneymaker.

    So, ultimately, I'm a little confused about your point. It mainly sounds like (this is a guess) you moved around Alberta with your family, came of age, decided that you hated the place your grew up in (which many youths do), then left. In your mind you seem to have formed this opinion that Alberta is somehow a shit hole just because you don't like it. I really hope you can understand why that is a little bit ridiculous.

    No. I grew up in Alberta, moved from a farm to a resort town after my mother had enough of my father's violent demeanour & divorced him, then went to southern Africa with MSF. I then had something of an epiphany, realized that Alberta & the attitude of most Albertans I knew was a load of bullshit, came back, got dragged through the mud while trying to do some 9-5 work in Edmonton, moved to Calgary, got a certificate in basic web/graphic design, moved to Cochrane, then moved to Vancouver Island.

    Alberta's a shit hole. It's the only shit hole on the planet, but it's certainly one of them.

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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    All this Alberta bashing is retarded. There I said it.

    Alberta gave 27 seats to the Conservatives. Woopi-fucking-doo. Those people all voted for their best short-term self-interest. Now we can argue until the cows come home over what balance they should have struck between their short-term and long-term self-interest (and that's most definitely not the argument that's going on in this thread), but the facts are that (1) humans (not Albertans, everyone) are notoriously bad at giving weight to long-term effect over short-term benefits, and (2) asking people to vote against their best-interest is a losing proposition.

    But more importantly, it's an irrelevant debate.

    Alberta gave 27 seats to the Conservatives out of 166 they won total. That means that 139 ridings elected Conservative MPs outside of Alberta. That's what put Harper over the top, not the 27 seats in Alberta. And those are the ones we should be questioning and attacking. Harper won almost three times more seats in Ontario than he won in Alberta. Why? Last time I checked, there were no oil fields in downtown Toronto. Why the fuck are people frothing at the mouth at 27 ridings protecting their interests but ignoring 73 ridings that are just being dumb?

    Oh, I know!

    Because it's easier to play into Harper's hateful divisionist pit-one-province-against-the-other vision of Canada. It's easier to blame all our current problems on these other provinces over there and hate them for it. It means we don't need to do anything: we don't have a problem, they do, and we can't fix them, we can only yell at them until they fix themselves. It means there's no point in trying to fix anything, because no matter what we do we'll have them fighting against us. It means they get to go further on their side because we've gone further on our side, and they get to fight us because we're fighting them for fighting us. It means Harper's divide-and-conquer strategy will continue to reap him majority after majority, because we want to be divided, we embrace it.

    So stop it, all of you. Alberta is not the problem. The fact we're eager to scapegoat Alberta and divide the nation rather than confront our issues is the problem.

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  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Calgary was slightly better than Edmonton. I didn't actually get mugged in Calgary, but then again I was living in Tuscany, not downtown. Headed back on the trains at night, every night, there'd be a crowd of students and some elderly folks crowded together on one side of a car and on the other side would be some tweakers. Fun shit.

    By 'burned out', I mean the cores are surrounded by run down neighbourhoods and businesses. It's visually apparent when you've parted company with the pristine shopping centres and entered the neglected old neighbourhoods that've been left to rot by the city.

    And no, not every city on the planet is like that, at all.

    Downtown Calgary can be rough, depending on where. I lived in Mission for a couple of years, down on 19th and 4th, and though the area itself was quite nice, you would get a lot of interesting characters coming down from the homeless shelter. I wouldn't have walked around there alone at night, but that's true of a lot of cities. Sunday's were the most interesting, when all the business folk had gone out of town/home to the burbs, and it felt really sketchy downtown.

    But again, Calgary is not unique, and not as bad as you were originally making it out to be. My opinion may now be more tempered by where I live now in SoCal, though.
    The Ender wrote: »
    It's disturbing to watch people shelter oil companies at all odds, at any cost, and in many cases almost deify them.

    Disturbing, perhaps. But, understanding the motivation that their livelihoods rely on these companies makes it far more easy to understand.
    The Ender wrote: »
    And I'm pretty sure it's not common in other universities. Can you cite specific examples?

    Waterloo had/has partnerships with Microsoft and RIM, Memorial University of Newfoundland (my uni) has a Vale-INCO a presence on campus and grants a lot of money, and that's just off the top of my head. Algonquin College in Ottawa used to have partnerships with Corel, then Nortel. Universities and colleges often have some kind of partnership with big local businesses, as it is beneficial to both side.

  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    In any case, the special At Issue panel last night re: the F-35, was pretty interesting. Andrew Coyne was a barely controlled ball of rage at the lack of resignations or signals of resignations thus far.

    So that begs the question, how many days until we see someone in the department resign? How many until a senior cabinet minister resigns? (HAHAHAHA... I know, that last one is really funny)

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    oldmanken wrote: »
    In any case, the special At Issue panel last night re: the F-35, was pretty interesting. Andrew Coyne was a barely controlled ball of rage at the lack of resignations or signals of resignations thus far.

    So that begs the question, how many days until we see someone in the department resign? How many until a senior cabinet minister resigns? (HAHAHAHA... I know, that last one is really funny)

    It's all the fault of this part-time minimum-wage intern at the cafeteria. And of the union protecting him. In fact we're passing union-busting laws as we speak to take away unions' rights to protect their workers, and launching a full investigation into why the Liberal Party never rang any alarm bells on these F-35 spending issues.

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    I was a big supporter of the f-35 program based on the facts as they where presented. This however is getting redicuous.ets just get some super hornets and be done with it.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    Disco, do you even live in Alberta?

    I do actually. Live in Calgary. Am originally from Montreal.

    The page on page blame that Alberta is the root of all evil in Canada is getting annoying.

    Then Albertans can smarten the fuck up and move into the 21st century alongside the rest of the Goddamn planet. "Oh, but food for my family!" is using your wife and children as a shield, and if you want to use dirty tricks like that I'll happily call you out on what 'family' tends to mean in Alberta.
    The last major plan for Alberta's energy sector at the federal level was the Green Shift, which would have heavily fined/taxed the industry as well as the energy sector in Saskatchewan, to provide richer benefits for social programs that are most taken advantage of in Ontario & Quebec.

    No shit Alberta didnt want to give up their jobs to help pay for and become unemployed.

    What I've never seen proposed at the Federal level is a Green Tax with heavy reinvestment in other sectors of the same province, which would retrain and re-employ the people that would lose their jobs from the bubble/boom popping.

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  • KetBraKetBra hiRegistered User regular
    Sometimes I wonder why Albertans have a collective chip on their shoulder.

    Then I read this thread.

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  • MorgensternMorgenstern Registered User regular
    Oh, hey another couple pages of Alberta bashing. What a fucking surprise, eh. Tweakers and addicts in downtown cores. Only in Alberta, mirite.

    “Every time we walk along a beach some ancient urge disturbs us so that we find ourselves shedding shoes and garments or scavenging among seaweed and whitened timbers like the homesick refugees of a long war.” - Loren Eiseley
  • hippofanthippofant Registered User regular
    The last major plan for Alberta's energy sector at the federal level was the Green Shift, which would have heavily fined/taxed the industry as well as the energy sector in Saskatchewan, to provide richer benefits for social programs that are most taken advantage of in Ontario & Quebec.

    No shit Alberta didnt want to give up their jobs to help pay for and become unemployed.

    What I've never seen proposed at the Federal level is a Green Tax with heavy reinvestment in other sectors of the same province, which would retrain and re-employ the people that would lose their jobs from the bubble/boom popping.

    Honestly though, for federalism to work, sometimes you just gotta suck it up. Ontario's been getting short-changed on equalization for years, and it's never been an issue until the last few years since our economy tanked. Quebec's gotta put up with our federalist shit all the time, which probably peeves them off. I mean, the reason social services are taken advantage more of in Ontario and Quebec is because MORE PEOPLE LIVE THERE; this is literally the sort of thinking that's led to our huge income disparities.

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    hippofant wrote: »
    The last major plan for Alberta's energy sector at the federal level was the Green Shift, which would have heavily fined/taxed the industry as well as the energy sector in Saskatchewan, to provide richer benefits for social programs that are most taken advantage of in Ontario & Quebec.

    No shit Alberta didnt want to give up their jobs to help pay for and become unemployed.

    What I've never seen proposed at the Federal level is a Green Tax with heavy reinvestment in other sectors of the same province, which would retrain and re-employ the people that would lose their jobs from the bubble/boom popping.

    Honestly though, for federalism to work, sometimes you just gotta suck it up. Ontario's been getting short-changed on equalization for years, and it's never been an issue until the last few years since our economy tanked. Quebec's gotta put up with our federalist shit all the time, which probably peeves them off. I mean, the reason social services are taken advantage more of in Ontario and Quebec is because MORE PEOPLE LIVE THERE; this is literally the sort of thinking that's led to our huge income disparities.

    They wanted to increase the Equalization payments coming out of Alberta (and Saksatchewan), without actually calling it that, because then other Have or soon to be Have provinces would have to pay more as well, and it would also piss off other Have not provinces.

    Which was sort of my point, it had nothing to do with Enviromentalism, and everything to do with draining wealth from an oppositions stronghold to enrich their own.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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