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[Canada] Politics of the Democratic Friedmanite Republic of the Government of Harper

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  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Oh, hey another couple pages of Alberta bashing. What a fucking surprise, eh. Tweakers and addicts in downtown cores. Only in Alberta, mirite.

    Hardly, I have a good idea where Ender ended up on Vancouver Island or at the very least passed through. Nanaimo is riddled with much the same problems but thankfully muggings, breakins, etc were less common in Harewood in recent years when I was living there with my new born. Hell, the tiny ass village I live in these days has serious issues with crime and policing, not the least of which is because RCMP is far more racist than I ever suspected, even living in the poor neighbourhoods I have while growing up.

    But whatever, when it comes to Canadian politics, I would much rather wonder why Ontario ridings vote Con than Alberta ridings. Or did they? #Robocall

    CanadianWolverine on
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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Provinces that will receive equalization payments in 2012

    Quebec ($7.391 billion)
    Ontario ($3.261 billion)
    Manitoba ($1.671 billion)
    New Brunswick ($1.495 billion)
    Nova Scotia ($1.268 billion)
    Prince Edward Island ($337 million)

    The following provinces will not qualify for equalization payments in 2012-2013:

    Alberta
    Saskatchewan
    Newfoundland and Labrador
    British Columbia

    Yep no reason to be bitter.

    Funny that all the provinces that have oil seem to be paying those that don't.

    http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp

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  • hippofanthippofant Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    hippofant wrote: »
    The last major plan for Alberta's energy sector at the federal level was the Green Shift, which would have heavily fined/taxed the industry as well as the energy sector in Saskatchewan, to provide richer benefits for social programs that are most taken advantage of in Ontario & Quebec.

    No shit Alberta didnt want to give up their jobs to help pay for and become unemployed.

    What I've never seen proposed at the Federal level is a Green Tax with heavy reinvestment in other sectors of the same province, which would retrain and re-employ the people that would lose their jobs from the bubble/boom popping.

    Honestly though, for federalism to work, sometimes you just gotta suck it up. Ontario's been getting short-changed on equalization for years, and it's never been an issue until the last few years since our economy tanked. Quebec's gotta put up with our federalist shit all the time, which probably peeves them off. I mean, the reason social services are taken advantage more of in Ontario and Quebec is because MORE PEOPLE LIVE THERE; this is literally the sort of thinking that's led to our huge income disparities.

    They wanted to increase the Equalization payments coming out of Alberta (and Saksatchewan), without actually calling it that, because then other Have or soon to be Have provinces would have to pay more as well, and it would also piss off other Have not provinces.

    Which was sort of my point, it had nothing to do with Enviromentalism, and everything to do with draining wealth from an oppositions stronghold to enrich their own.

    I think environmentalism has a lot to do with it. And, honestly, equalization under the Chretien and Martin Liberals drained wealth out of their Ontario strongholds to enrich other provinces. I mean, we can play this game all day, but at the end of it, it's a matter of whether you're part of a society or not. Do you want to contribute to everybody's well-being or just your own? It so often seems to me just a vague hurgle-burgle defending the oilsands coming out of Alberta that doesn't really seem well-thought-out at all, but rather just a reaffirmation of the status quo. For example, there was someone here who had proposed, a long time ago, to amend the Green Shift plan to shift more of the revenue back into Alberta, which made sense to me. Redford, also, seems to be an extremely thoughtful premier, which I also like.

    I mean, it's easy to run an oil state. See Saudi Arabia, Brunei, Bahrain. There's a reason why the world's only remaining absolute monarchies are all oil states (and the Vatican... and Swaziland.). But that doesn't mean it's good or right. It's just easy.

    hippofant on
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    I agree, its easy to run any country, the question is, can you do it well? I think there is room for improvement in how Alberta is run, I dont see any federal parties advocating beneficial changes for Alberta. I think Alison Redford has the right ideas in many areas on how to improve the province, and I generally personally align very closely with the NDP (though they dont have a hope of forming majority and a very very small chance of playing kingmaker for a coalition).

    You keep trying to bring up equalization, which is a good and fair thing. The Green Shift was not equalization, and is something seperate. You then try to bring up Enviromentalism, but other than taxing pollution, the Green Shift did nothing to actually lower pollution, but instead relied on the Free Market to do all the heavy lifting.

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  • Boring7Boring7 Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Provinces that will receive equalization payments in 2012

    Quebec ($7.391 billion)
    Ontario ($3.261 billion)
    Manitoba ($1.671 billion)
    New Brunswick ($1.495 billion)
    Nova Scotia ($1.268 billion)
    Prince Edward Island ($337 million)

    The following provinces will not qualify for equalization payments in 2012-2013:

    Alberta
    Saskatchewan
    Newfoundland and Labrador
    British Columbia

    Yep no reason to be bitter.

    Funny that all the provinces that have oil seem to be paying those that don't.

    http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp

    Almost as if you have a giant pile of money, but still seem to be complaining about regulation and lack of subsidies (okay maybe that's just the US, *snerk*) killing your business and making it impossible to support your families.

    Funny that.

    I realize I'm just butting in from the south, but are you folks from Soviet Canuckistan ALL this hateful to each others' provinces? I mean I can understand Quebec because they're Frenchy McFrenchertons but everyone else...

    Thanatos wrote: »
    Goldman Sachs may as well be named COBRA.
  • NODeNODe Registered User
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Provinces that will receive equalization payments in 2012

    Quebec ($7.391 billion)
    Ontario ($3.261 billion)
    Manitoba ($1.671 billion)
    New Brunswick ($1.495 billion)
    Nova Scotia ($1.268 billion)
    Prince Edward Island ($337 million)

    The following provinces will not qualify for equalization payments in 2012-2013:

    Alberta
    Saskatchewan
    Newfoundland and Labrador
    British Columbia

    Yep no reason to be bitter.

    Funny that all the provinces that have oil seem to be paying those that don't.

    http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp

    Sorry? Did you think that the equalization program meant "everybody gets money"?
    You're bitter that we in Alberta are doing so well economically that we can help out other Canadian provinces? This makes you bitter??

    Just because everyone in this thread calling our province a shit hole can go fuck themselves doesn't mean that Alberta is hard done by. Even from a completely insular perspective we can be managing our resources in a much more sustainable way...economically sustainable and enivornmentally sustainable. I want my son to be able to find a great job in Alberta in 18+ years if he chooses to stay here.

  • hippofanthippofant Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I agree, its easy to run any country, the question is, can you do it well? I think there is room for improvement in how Alberta is run, I dont see any federal parties advocating beneficial changes for Alberta. I think Alison Redford has the right ideas in many areas on how to improve the province, and I generally personally align very closely with the NDP (though they dont have a hope of forming majority and a very very small chance of playing kingmaker for a coalition).

    You keep trying to bring up equalization, which is a good and fair thing. The Green Shift was not equalization, and is something seperate. You then try to bring up Enviromentalism, but other than taxing pollution, the Green Shift did nothing to actually lower pollution, but instead relied on the Free Market to do all the heavy lifting.

    Um, if you're referring to me specifically, you were the one who said the Green Shift was an attempt at equalization in disguise. I dunno that it was. I didn't really understand that post, since I didn't see how it would piss off have-not provinces either.

    As for environmentalism, personally, I'm not really an environmentalist. If the human species goes extinct, I'm kinda okay with it. But assuming we don't want to go extinct, then we should probably work on saving the environment, in which case, really, I would also agree that carbon taxes are pathetic half-hearted gestures to stopping runaway carbon emissions that are scary dangerous right now if you look at the science.

    I'm more speaking in reference to Disco11, who seems to be professing severe ignorance of Canadian history. For example:
    Wikipedia wrote:
    The rise in energy prices and the resulting increase in provincial natural resource royalties in the late 1970s created several problems for the equalization formula. The need for amendments to the formula became clear when the traditional "have" province of Ontario qualified for equalization payments in 1978. This result went against the spirit of the system and would have led to substantial costs for the federal government; it was agreed that Ontario should be excluded from receiving payments. In 1982, the equalization standard was shifted from the national average to the average of the five "representative" provinces: British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec.

    That policy's since been redone, such that Ontario can receive equalization now, but it's like he's living in a world where everybody's out to get him or something. It's been the case for years now that Ontario and Alberta were the biggest payers in the equalization system, and now that Ontario's paid in when times were good, now he's pissed that they're receiving when times are bad? Like... what? And again, it goes back to the question of, do you want Alberta to be part of Canada or not, and it increasingly seems like Disco11 does not.

    hippofant on
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    I agree, its easy to run any country, the question is, can you do it well? I think there is room for improvement in how Alberta is run, I dont see any federal parties advocating beneficial changes for Alberta. I think Alison Redford has the right ideas in many areas on how to improve the province, and I generally personally align very closely with the NDP (though they dont have a hope of forming majority and a very very small chance of playing kingmaker for a coalition).

    You keep trying to bring up equalization, which is a good and fair thing. The Green Shift was not equalization, and is something seperate. You then try to bring up Enviromentalism, but other than taxing pollution, the Green Shift did nothing to actually lower pollution, but instead relied on the Free Market to do all the heavy lifting.

    Um, if you're referring to me specifically, you were the one who said the Green Shift was an attempt at equalization in disguise. I dunno that it was. As for environmentalism, personally, I'm not really an environmentalist. If the human species goes extinct, I'm kinda okay with it. But assuming we don't want to go extinct, then we should probably work on saving the environment, in which case, really, I would also agree that carbon taxes are pathetic half-hearted gestures to stopping ruanway carbon emissions that are scary dangerous right now if you look at the science.

    I'm more speaking in reference to Disco11, who seems to be professing severe ignorance of Canadian history. For example:
    Wikipedia wrote:
    The rise in energy prices and the resulting increase in provincial natural resource royalties in the late 1970s created several problems for the equalization formula. The need for amendments to the formula became clear when the traditional "have" province of Ontario qualified for equalization payments in 1978. This result went against the spirit of the system and would have led to substantial costs for the federal government; it was agreed that Ontario should be excluded from receiving payments. In 1982, the equalization standard was shifted from the national average to the average of the five "representative" provinces: British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec.

    That policy's since been redone, such that Ontario can receive equalization now, but it's like he's living in a world where everybody's out to get him or something. It's been the case for years now that Ontario and Alberta were the biggest payers in the equalization system, and now that Ontario's paid in when times were good, now he's pissed that they're receiving when times are bad? Like... what? And again, it goes back to the question of, do you want Alberta to be part of Canada or not, and it increasingly seems like Disco11 does not.

    I am not saying a all that Albertans are not well off. We have the highest wealth per capita of the country and the lowest taxes. I love Canada! i come from a hard core separatist family and am not on speaking terms with some of them because of my "federalist" stance on the issue. I did want to point out that it's not only Alberta or other oil producing provinces that benefits from our oil resource. We pay out our fair share back to the rest of the country.

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  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    The rest of the country, where unemployment is higher and average wage is far lower, might dispute that.

    The Green Shift was a good plan. The conservatives managed to do some really obnoxiously good messaging to kill it, but it was a solid foundation.

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    psyck0 wrote: »
    The rest of the country, where unemployment is higher and average wage is far lower, might dispute that.

    The Green Shift was a good plan. The conservatives managed to do some really obnoxiously good messaging to kill it, but it was a solid foundation.

    Great! If that's the case tell them to move out here. Alberta is dying for more population.

    The green shift was a joke and using that as their main platform killed the liberals.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Sometimes I wonder why Albertans have a collective chip on their shoulder.

    Then I read this thread.

    Then hopefully you remember that the chip predates this thread and the attitudes therein.

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Sometimes I wonder why Albertans have a collective chip on their shoulder.

    Then I read this thread.

    Then hopefully you remember that the chip predates this thread and the attitudes therein.

    I do remember that, but then I realize that the attitudes on display on this thread were inherited from others that predate the internet.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Sometimes I wonder why Albertans have a collective chip on their shoulder.

    Then I read this thread.

    Then hopefully you remember that the chip predates this thread and the attitudes therein.

    I do remember that, but then I realize that the attitudes on display on this thread were inherited from others that predate the internet.

    Right, it's not like one could look at the political situation in Alberta, the political things the province exports to the rest of the country, the environmental bullshit they perpetuate or the attitudes of Albertans towards the rest of the country.

    No, no, the rest of the country is just running the NEP 2: The Revenge. It's an insidious generational hatred of Alberta. That can be the only explanation!

    shryke on
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Sometimes I wonder why Albertans have a collective chip on their shoulder.

    Then I read this thread.

    Then hopefully you remember that the chip predates this thread and the attitudes therein.

    I do remember that, but then I realize that the attitudes on display on this thread were inherited from others that predate the internet.

    Right, it's not like one could look at the political situation in Alberta, the political things the province exports to the rest of the country, the environmental bullshit they perpetuate or the attitudes of Albertans towards the rest of the country.

    No, no, the rest of the country is just running the NEP 2: The Revenge. It's an insidious generational hatred of Alberta. That can be the only explanation!

    Dont be so touchy, I didnt deny that Albertans have a chip on their shoulder, nor am I trying to claim that the chip came into being purely due to the malice that is inheritly contagious from the fumes pumped by the oil derricks that requires the entire province to be cordoned off and radiated to a wasteland so that in 10 years Psych0 doesnt have to think about it anymore.

    EDIT: And as far as political views that the province is exporting to the rest of the country thats a big old pile of horseshit, there is a huge buffet of it just south of the border that everyone is sampling from, Alberta isnt the source.

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  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    So, since Alberta is such a valuable contributor to Canada, wouldn't it stand to reason that we don't actually hate Alberta, we just hope the place sticks around past the bubble bursting? What may be a net gain right now could very well become a huge drain where oil and water is concerned. One sustains our economy, the other life which without it no economy we want to fathom is possible.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    So, since Alberta is such a valuable contributor to Canada, wouldn't it stand to reason that we don't actually hate Alberta, we just hope the place sticks around past the bubble bursting? What may be a net gain right now could very well become a huge drain where oil and water is concerned. One sustains our economy, the other life which without it no economy we want to fathom is possible.

    I've never thought people hated Alberta (beyond Psych0's insane ramblings), but some people are resentful of their prosperity coming at the cost of their own self image of Canada being a wilderness wonderland. I would hope that the concept of drilling as much as we can as fast as we can consequences be damned is in the minority within the provinces population. But enticing new industries is very much a collective action problem that requires a government willing to step in at either the provincial or federal level.

    I remember when living in Winnipeg how people were resentful of the new pig farms being approved not that far out of the city, but then when the slaughterhouses and meatpacking came along with them, people kinda stopped bitching when unemployment went down and standard of living went up. Even now, people are upset at the huge new jail being built near Headingley, but they dont account for all the construction jobs going into building the place along with the new roads to get there, as well as how a larger jail means more guards which means more jobs.

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  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I'd throw away the money Alberta contributes if we could get rid of the province as well. I think that the politics they export are far more harmful than any financial or cultural benefit we get. I don't consider it a valuable contributor.

    The green shift was actually sensible environmental policy, it's just people are too stupid to think beyond their next year of employment to consider that it might actually be in our own best interests, and certainly in our children's best interests, to try to live in a way that vaguely resembles sustainable. People aren't willing to hear that maybe their SUV is killing the environment and it might be a good idea to start taxing some of the things that are causing extreme long-term harm to encourage people to try alternatives. That probably has to do with my perspective from my generation having to clean up the gigantic mess the baby boomers have left us, and Alberta collectively doing its best to continue on that moronic path.

    All I hope is that Alberta manages to carry out its goals and get to the endpoint, which will be a wasteland with 15% unemployment and a destroyed ecosystem, without damaging the rest of the country too badly. That's why I hope the Wildrose win- they'll accomplish it faster and then we can collectively acknowledge that their policies are stupid and move on to doing something that actually works.

    There are lots of other regions in Canada which I'd happily throw out as well, but few of them are as well-encapsulated as Alberta is. You guys can have most of our interior, as well (or could, if it wasn't such amazing farmland that is all being wasted as wineries these days).

    psyck0 on
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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    psyck0 wrote: »
    I'd throw away the money Alberta contributes if we could get rid of the province as well. I think that the politics they export are far more harmful than any financial or cultural benefit we get. I don't consider it a valuable contributor.

    Slow clap......

    Congrats dude. Your true colors are finally showing through.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Sometimes I wonder why Albertans have a collective chip on their shoulder.

    Then I read this thread.

    Then hopefully you remember that the chip predates this thread and the attitudes therein.

    I do remember that, but then I realize that the attitudes on display on this thread were inherited from others that predate the internet.

    Right, it's not like one could look at the political situation in Alberta, the political things the province exports to the rest of the country, the environmental bullshit they perpetuate or the attitudes of Albertans towards the rest of the country.

    No, no, the rest of the country is just running the NEP 2: The Revenge. It's an insidious generational hatred of Alberta. That can be the only explanation!

    Dont be so touchy, I didnt deny that Albertans have a chip on their shoulder, nor am I trying to claim that the chip came into being purely due to the malice that is inheritly contagious from the fumes pumped by the oil derricks that requires the entire province to be cordoned off and radiated to a wasteland so that in 10 years Psych0 doesnt have to think about it anymore.

    EDIT: And as far as political views that the province is exporting to the rest of the country thats a big old pile of horseshit, there is a huge buffet of it just south of the border that everyone is sampling from, Alberta isnt the source.

    Republican politics aren't leaking into Quebec via the border. Albertans may be copying the GOP playbook, but they are the ones putting it into play up here. Although Alberta also tends to copy the oil-monarchy playbook too.

    I grow weary of this bullshit that comes up everytime people criticize Alberta where suddenly the people criticizing are the ones "tearing the country apart" and somehow responsible for western alienation.

    The thing I notice most in here is when someone criticizes Ontario for voting Conservative, pretty much everyone is going "Yeah, what the hell is wrong with them". Alberta is the only province with it's own defense force in this thread.

    shryke on
  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    What the fuck are you talking about, disco? That's no different from what I've been saying the entire time. I'm not going to apologize for thinking that conservatism is retarded and that therefore we could do away with the most conservative province in the country and come out ahead. It's not at all realistic, it's never going to happen and trying to make it happen would cause more harm than good, but it's a nice dream.

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  • NODeNODe Registered User
    shryke wrote: »
    Republican politics aren't leaking into Quebec via the border. Albertans may be copying the GOP playbook, but they are the ones putting it into play up here. Although Alberta also tends to copy the oil-monarchy playbook too.

    I grow weary of this bullshit that comes up everytime people criticize Alberta where suddenly the people criticizing are the ones "tearing the country apart" and somehow responsible for western alienation.

    The thing I notice most in here is when someone criticizes Ontario for voting Conservative, pretty much everyone is going "Yeah, what the hell is wrong with them". Alberta is the only province with it's own defense force in this thread.

    I'm sure those critiques usually involve calling Ontario a burnt out shit hole and fervently hoping that it destroys itself. Get a grip.

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Sometimes I wonder why Albertans have a collective chip on their shoulder.

    Then I read this thread.

    Then hopefully you remember that the chip predates this thread and the attitudes therein.

    I do remember that, but then I realize that the attitudes on display on this thread were inherited from others that predate the internet.

    Right, it's not like one could look at the political situation in Alberta, the political things the province exports to the rest of the country, the environmental bullshit they perpetuate or the attitudes of Albertans towards the rest of the country.

    No, no, the rest of the country is just running the NEP 2: The Revenge. It's an insidious generational hatred of Alberta. That can be the only explanation!

    Dont be so touchy, I didnt deny that Albertans have a chip on their shoulder, nor am I trying to claim that the chip came into being purely due to the malice that is inheritly contagious from the fumes pumped by the oil derricks that requires the entire province to be cordoned off and radiated to a wasteland so that in 10 years Psych0 doesnt have to think about it anymore.

    EDIT: And as far as political views that the province is exporting to the rest of the country thats a big old pile of horseshit, there is a huge buffet of it just south of the border that everyone is sampling from, Alberta isnt the source.

    Republican politics aren't leaking into Quebec via the border. Albertans may be copying the GOP playbook, but they are the ones putting it into play up here. Although Alberta also tends to copy the oil-monarchy playbook too.

    I grow weary of this bullshit that comes up everytime people criticize Alberta where suddenly the people criticizing are the ones "tearing the country apart" and somehow responsible for western alienation.

    The thing I notice most in here is when someone criticizes Ontario for voting Conservative, pretty much everyone is going "Yeah, what the hell is wrong with them". Alberta is the only province with it's own defense force in this thread.

    Just go wash the sand out of your vagina already. The reason people are leaping to the defense of Alberta is when people criticize the province and its population as a whole, instead of distinct situations, policies or politicians that can be refuted or commiserated over.

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    You do realize that more conservatives got elected in Ontario then Alberta right? Do you hate them for being a hotbed of conservatism?

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  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    False equivilancy. Conservatives have a much weaker history in Ontario and haven't been re-elected continuously in the province for the last 40 years (hell, they haven't been in office for a decade now, and are still largely despised for the shit Harris pulled) and federally, the popular vote was far lower for the Conservatives than it was in Alberta.

    Nevertheless, in my pipe dream world, there are regions of Ontario that I would be quite happy to sell off to Iran as well.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    You do realize that more conservatives got elected in Ontario then Alberta right? Do you hate them for being a hotbed of conservatism?

    They aren't hot beds of conservatism.

    We do hate them for being fucking stupid though. At least Albertan voters have the "excuse" of just being short-sighted and selfish.

    Just go wash the sand out of your vagina already. The reason people are leaping to the defense of Alberta is when people criticize the province and its population as a whole, instead of distinct situations, policies or politicians that can be refuted or commiserated over.

    So the Alberta defenders just don't get the difference between "most" and "all" like I said earlier.

  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    psyck0 wrote: »
    False equivilancy. Conservatives have a much weaker history in Ontario and haven't been re-elected continuously in the province for the last 40 years (hell, they haven't been in office for a decade now, and are still largely despised for the shit Harris pulled) and federally, the popular vote was far lower for the Conservatives than it was in Alberta.

    Nevertheless, in my pipe dream world, there are regions of Ontario that I would be quite happy to sell off to Iran as well.

    Oh? What regions? Really, I'm interested. (Let me guess: starts with a T ends with oronto)

    You're rapidly becoming someone who I would be quite happy to see run over by a bus

    Al_wat on
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    You do realize that more conservatives got elected in Ontario then Alberta right? Do you hate them for being a hotbed of conservatism?

    They aren't hot beds of conservatism.

    We do hate them for being fucking stupid though. At least Albertan voters have the "excuse" of just being short-sighted and selfish.

    Just go wash the sand out of your vagina already. The reason people are leaping to the defense of Alberta is when people criticize the province and its population as a whole, instead of distinct situations, policies or politicians that can be refuted or commiserated over.

    So the Alberta defenders just don't get the difference between "most" and "all" like I said earlier.

    People in Alberta know a lot of other people in Alberta, most likely, they know more Albertans than people that dont live here. Which means they are also better able to classify and quantify behaviour patterns in Alberta, but also want to defend people they know from broad and insulting generalizations.

    Is your inability to wash the sand out of your vagina due to you yourself being a douche? It could be quite the paradox.

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  • EgoEgo Registered User regular
    Sheesh. I'm awfully liberal, but saying that you hope Alberta burns is remarkably childish.

    I don't hope that the people that I disagree with destroy themselves. I hope they learn enough to change. I'm even confident it'll happen, seeing the younger generation in this province. People are people, and while a majority of those in Alberta might have what I consider to be misguided politics, they're still good folks.

    I've convinced a lot of people over the years not to support the cons, here. Not by telling them that I hope the province they live in becomes a toxic wasteland, however.

    Erik
  • KetBraKetBra hiRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Sometimes I wonder why Albertans have a collective chip on their shoulder.

    Then I read this thread.

    Then hopefully you remember that the chip predates this thread and the attitudes therein.

    I really hope you aren't excusing some of the extremely vile shit that's been said in this thread.

    This is really unfortunate, because there are a lot of great discussions to be had about federalism, the environment, and regional disparity to be had, but the environment that seems to persist in this thread does not seem very conductive to that.

    I'm a card-carrying NDP member here, and I feel the attitudes you guys are espousing with relation to Alberta (and implicitly supporting with statements like this) are personally insulting, disingenuous, and intellectually lazy. You're alienating me! I'm supposed to be agreeing with you here!

    I agree with you guys that we need better environment regulations and controls.

    I agree that we need transfer payments for a functioning federation, and that Alberta as a natural-resource gifted province needs to pay up.

    What you need to realize is that sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling about how horrible Alberta is in every way and if only Alberta fell off the face of the earth we would now exist in some sort of fucking paradise isn't conductive to anything other than feeling good about yourself. You need to be convincing, not condescending. Guess what guys, conservatism isn't something that Alberta invented. It's not some sort of evil tumor that's destroying Canada.

    I really would like to have an intelligent discussion about federalism. A productive discussion about politics in this country. But all I see is talk of "RepubliCONS," how Stephen Harper is destroying the very foundations of our country, and of course, how Alberta is a shithole that is the source of all of our problems (because no one in Ontario voted Conservative, right?).

    You hate people for voting for parties other than your anointed one? And the conservatives are supposed to be the intolerant ones?

    Jesus Christ, people.

    KetBra on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I'm pretty sure only one person is hoping Alberta falls off the face of the earth.

    People in Alberta know a lot of other people in Alberta, most likely, they know more Albertans than people that dont live here. Which means they are also better able to classify and quantify behaviour patterns in Alberta, but also want to defend people they know from broad and insulting generalizations.

    Voting results and such are a mite more accurate then "the people I know".

    shryke on
  • hippofanthippofant Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    Um, if you're referring to me specifically, you were the one who said the Green Shift was an attempt at equalization in disguise. I dunno that it was. As for environmentalism, personally, I'm not really an environmentalist. If the human species goes extinct, I'm kinda okay with it. But assuming we don't want to go extinct, then we should probably work on saving the environment, in which case, really, I would also agree that carbon taxes are pathetic half-hearted gestures to stopping ruanway carbon emissions that are scary dangerous right now if you look at the science.

    I'm more speaking in reference to Disco11, who seems to be professing severe ignorance of Canadian history. For example:
    Wikipedia wrote:
    The rise in energy prices and the resulting increase in provincial natural resource royalties in the late 1970s created several problems for the equalization formula. The need for amendments to the formula became clear when the traditional "have" province of Ontario qualified for equalization payments in 1978. This result went against the spirit of the system and would have led to substantial costs for the federal government; it was agreed that Ontario should be excluded from receiving payments. In 1982, the equalization standard was shifted from the national average to the average of the five "representative" provinces: British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec.

    That policy's since been redone, such that Ontario can receive equalization now, but it's like he's living in a world where everybody's out to get him or something. It's been the case for years now that Ontario and Alberta were the biggest payers in the equalization system, and now that Ontario's paid in when times were good, now he's pissed that they're receiving when times are bad? Like... what? And again, it goes back to the question of, do you want Alberta to be part of Canada or not, and it increasingly seems like Disco11 does not.

    I am not saying a all that Albertans are not well off. We have the highest wealth per capita of the country and the lowest taxes. I love Canada! i come from a hard core separatist family and am not on speaking terms with some of them because of my "federalist" stance on the issue. I did want to point out that it's not only Alberta or other oil producing provinces that benefits from our oil resource. We pay out our fair share back to the rest of the country.

    Well there seems to be some misunderstanding here on my part then, since the Green Shift wasn't at all about trying to get Alberta to pay more to the rest of the country because it wasn't paying its fair share, imo. That was Gnome-Interruptus' point, one which I didn't really agree with. I think the general point might still apply to those Albertans who still resent the NEP and whatnot, because, like I said, this is a society, and sometimes you just suck things up to be part of the society. I don't like funding Catholic schools with my tax dollars, but I'm not ... well, I don't know what I'd do, but I'm not voting for random fringe candidates just on that issue.

    Look, hypothetically, let's flip this around. Ontario's got a fuckton of uranium. Let's say that because our economy is in the dumps, McGuinty decides to revive it by mining uranium and selling it to everybody and anybody who wants it, including North Korea (which would be massively illegal and would never happen, but whatever). So there's a resource in the ground, we're digging it up, causing significant harm to the world, and diminishing the stature of Canada throughout the world. Wouldn't you agree that "the feds" should be allowed to step in and prevent Ontario from doing that, which they currently do? Wouldn't you agree that other provinces should have some say as to whether Ontario starts fucking up the world unilaterally?

    I mean, what makes the oilsands any more "Albertan" than it is "Canadian"? If you live in Calgary and don't actually work in the oilsands, what gives you more of a say over it than I? Assuming that oilsands income is distributed equitably throughout Canada - as you suggest when you say that Alberta pays out its fair share to the rest of the country - then when a non-Albertan makes a decision to diminish that income for whatever environmental reason, then isn't that decision just as meaningful as if it were made by an Albertan? There's a bit of ... incongruity here that I can't quite reconcile.

  • saggiosaggio Registered User regular
    NODe wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Provinces that will receive equalization payments in 2012

    Quebec ($7.391 billion)
    Ontario ($3.261 billion)
    Manitoba ($1.671 billion)
    New Brunswick ($1.495 billion)
    Nova Scotia ($1.268 billion)
    Prince Edward Island ($337 million)

    The following provinces will not qualify for equalization payments in 2012-2013:

    Alberta
    Saskatchewan
    Newfoundland and Labrador
    British Columbia

    Yep no reason to be bitter.

    Funny that all the provinces that have oil seem to be paying those that don't.

    http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp

    Sorry? Did you think that the equalization program meant "everybody gets money"?
    You're bitter that we in Alberta are doing so well economically that we can help out other Canadian provinces? This makes you bitter??

    Just because everyone in this thread calling our province a shit hole can go fuck themselves doesn't mean that Alberta is hard done by. Even from a completely insular perspective we can be managing our resources in a much more sustainable way...economically sustainable and enivornmentally sustainable. I want my son to be able to find a great job in Alberta in 18+ years if he chooses to stay here.

    I hope you and everyone else in this thread realizes that equalization has nothing to do with the provinces. Provincial governments pay nothing into the equalization program; all of the monies come from federal revenues which and then divvied up according to an ever changing, supremely obscure formula.

    Equalization also happens to be the only constitutionally entrenched spending program. So if you, for some absurd reason, want to see it abolished, it would be reopening the constitution. Wheee.

    3DS: 0232-9436-6893
  • ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    So, as a complete change of topic, as this has seemingly worn itself out and @Ketbra has basically said anything I was going to add:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/04/04/albertavotes2012-conscience-rights-smith-wildrose.html

    I started paying a bit more attention to the Wildrose Party because of concerns people raised here. Frankly, I am boggled.

    "The Wildrose Party believes that venue should be a new human rights division of the provincial court of Alberta. This body would replace the Alberta Human Rights Commission, which the party says will be dismantled if they win the election. It would move those kinds of decisions out of the hands of unelected bureaucrats into the hands of the courts," Smith said."

    So, it would take the decisions out of the hands of unelected bureaucrats and place them into the hands of other unelected bureaucrats? Yay?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    I really want the provincial cons to go but since crazy rose seems to be the only alternative.... My riding is poling 60% wild rose. Dudes signs are everywhere!

    Really wish there was a viable 3rd option.

    steam_sig.png
    gamertag: Canadianllama
  • MorgensternMorgenstern Registered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »

    I mean, what makes the oilsands any more "Albertan" than it is "Canadian"? If you live in Calgary and don't actually work in the oilsands, what gives you more of a say over it than I? Assuming that oilsands income is distributed equitably throughout Canada - as you suggest when you say that Alberta pays out its fair share to the rest of the country - then when a non-Albertan makes a decision to diminish that income for whatever environmental reason, then isn't that decision just as meaningful as if it were made by an Albertan? There's a bit of ... incongruity here that I can't quite reconcile.

    The 10% income tax that the person pays to the province that you, as a non-Albertan, don't pay? The fact the person in Calgary uses services paid for by the Alberta gov't and the fact you would probably use them less, if at all?

    “Every time we walk along a beach some ancient urge disturbs us so that we find ourselves shedding shoes and garments or scavenging among seaweed and whitened timbers like the homesick refugees of a long war.” - Loren Eiseley
  • hippofanthippofant Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    hippofant wrote: »

    I mean, what makes the oilsands any more "Albertan" than it is "Canadian"? If you live in Calgary and don't actually work in the oilsands, what gives you more of a say over it than I? Assuming that oilsands income is distributed equitably throughout Canada - as you suggest when you say that Alberta pays out its fair share to the rest of the country - then when a non-Albertan makes a decision to diminish that income for whatever environmental reason, then isn't that decision just as meaningful as if it were made by an Albertan? There's a bit of ... incongruity here that I can't quite reconcile.

    The 10% income tax that the person pays to the province that you, as a non-Albertan, don't pay? The fact the person in Calgary uses services paid for by the Alberta gov't and the fact you would probably use them less, if at all?

    And the correlation between that and the administration of a natural resource is... what? Again, so if Canadians can't tell Albertans what to do with the oilsands - even though for some reason Calgarians can tell Fort McMurrayians what to do with the oilsands, which is an inconsistency that doesn't have anything to do with provincial taxes since there are also federal taxes and municipal taxes - can Canadians not tell Ontarians what to do with their uranium deposits?

    hippofant on
  • AridholAridhol Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    You do realize that more conservatives got elected in Ontario then Alberta right? Do you hate them for being a hotbed of conservatism?

    They aren't hot beds of conservatism.

    We do hate them for being fucking stupid though. At least Albertan voters have the "excuse" of just being short-sighted and selfish.

    Just go wash the sand out of your vagina already. The reason people are leaping to the defense of Alberta is when people criticize the province and its population as a whole, instead of distinct situations, policies or politicians that can be refuted or commiserated over.

    So the Alberta defenders just don't get the difference between "most" and "all" like I said earlier.
    hippofant wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »

    I mean, what makes the oilsands any more "Albertan" than it is "Canadian"? If you live in Calgary and don't actually work in the oilsands, what gives you more of a say over it than I? Assuming that oilsands income is distributed equitably throughout Canada - as you suggest when you say that Alberta pays out its fair share to the rest of the country - then when a non-Albertan makes a decision to diminish that income for whatever environmental reason, then isn't that decision just as meaningful as if it were made by an Albertan? There's a bit of ... incongruity here that I can't quite reconcile.

    The 10% income tax that the person pays to the province that you, as a non-Albertan, don't pay? The fact the person in Calgary uses services paid for by the Alberta gov't and the fact you would probably use them less, if at all?

    And the correlation between that and the administration of a natural resource is... what? Again, so if Canadians can't tell Albertans what to do with the oilsands - even though for some reason Calgarians can tell Fort McMurrayians what to do with the oilsands, which is an inconsistency that doesn't have anything to do with provincial taxes since there are also federal taxes and municipal taxes - can Canadians not tell Ontarians what to do with their uranium deposits?

    Or BC with it's forests and ocean wildlife?

    All the Albertan's getting up in arms over the general criticism of the province and the majority of voters are welcome to start pointing out all the idiotic crap other provinces pull, we're all far from perfect.

  • ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    I really want the provincial cons to go but since crazy rose seems to be the only alternative.... My riding is poling 60% wild rose. Dudes signs are everywhere!

    Really wish there was a viable 3rd option.

    I should really read up on those running in my area, as at this point I am basically basing my vote on who bothered to canvas my area, which is the Alberta Party member Sue Huff. I really think politicians underestimate the affect making face to face contact with their people can have. Also, their platform doesn't look terrible, although it is incredibly vague.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SunstrandSunstrand Registered User regular
    I haven't posted here in a while but I feel I can put some things into perspective for the non-Albertan's and non-oilfield workers. For background I have been working int he oilfield for 12 years now, I spent the winter in C.L.A.W.R, helping in the production of oil sands crude. I was supposed to be in Iraq training people there but the oil company I intended to be working for was stopped production. I realized this after I finished, but the majority of specialized equipment, technology and personnel for around the world comes from right here in Alberta, so we have some pride in that as well.

    My experiences within the industry.
    Spoiler:

    As an Albertan I don't have a problem helping out the country as a whole, when abroad, I'm Canadian not Albertan when someone asks where I'm from. I don't give a shit who is in office as long as we aren't up to our asses in debt, we help out around the world, and we have good human rights here at home. It might be a bit cynical but I have yet to notice a difference in any of the federal parties at the basic level. No one has infringed on my right's, I haven't been murdered or anything, and I feel safe pretty much where ever I go, and I haven't had to wait for to long when I needed healthcare. So what can I complain about? we have it extremely well in Canada and I do think that people don't seem to understand that, and that does piss me off a bit but whatever.

    Just some perspective I guess, kinda reminds me of the whole east coast west coast rap thing when I was younger, every body hates each other and doesn't know why. Toronto thinks Calgary is uppity ass clown who think they are the center of the world and Calgary thinks the same of Toronto.

    BorderlandsClaptraps.jpg
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I can assure you Toronto just doesn't think of Calgary at all.

This discussion has been closed.