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Strength.Training.Guile. [Mass Effect].The Special Tasks Group needs you.USE SPOILER TAGS

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Posts

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    I don't know if "millions of stillbirths" is much better than genocide

    it is still pretty awful

    in fairness

    the krogan aren't "supposed" to have such an absurdly high level of population growth

    they only naturally give birth to so many because the vast majority of offspring would be killed by the hazards of Tuchanka

    the uplift made that stop happening, and the genophage is just an artificial substitute for the natural culling that krogans evolved to go under

    arguably, even ignoring the galaxy at large, a cured krogan would eventually kill themselves with overpopulation. Part of the reason they expanded so aggressively was because Tuchanka couldn't even begin to support their numbers anymore.

  • NerdgasmicNerdgasmic __BANNED USERS regular
    Mordin disagreed, though

    @nealcm @faynor
    nerdgasmic.gif1420 6068 6113 - XBL Atomoclassic
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    As far as I understand it, the "ideal" purpose of the genophage is to substitute the naturally high attrition rate of Krogan population on Tuchanka with a genetic mutation to prevent overpopulation in less intense climates. Their high birth rate is a direct evolutionary result of the harsh living conditions on Tuchanka. Removing those variables would be similar to if you removed all the attrition variables from say, the salmon population. If you were to just take away all forms of plausible harm from their natural cycles, it'd likely lead to overpopulation in many areas.

    As usual, though, Salarians could only understand the scientific aspects. From a purely statistical standpoint, the Krogan species still has the capability to sustain itself even with current genophage birth rates. But this is only when you don't take into consideration the social and ethical ramifications, and how the Krogan responded to the genophage. A fully unified species could have probably lived with the genophage, but the Krogan were never really a unified species to begin with. All the genophage from a social and cultural perspective was amplify all the negative aspects of Krogan nature and fragment them further.

    bar-cc-1.jpg
  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    qJGPzDc.jpg
    Satan Info/Wishlist Post (small update 11/20)
  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    I don't know if "millions of stillbirths" is much better than genocide

    it is still pretty awful

    According to ME2 it's the pre-war population growth standard.

    It's not good, but it's not genocide. You know, like the Krogan dropping asteroids on Turian planets killing millions and ruining the land for a few billion years.

    And what happens when king Wrex isn't around anymore?

    by that time one would hope his and eve's influence would have benefited the krogan enough that they would realize that going back to barbarism would only harm them in the long run

    Granted, you can't be sure, but I'd rather side with ethics than eugenics.

    xmassig2.gif
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

  • Garret DoriganGarret Dorigan Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    "Never Hit"
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    They kind of are, though. You see Wrex fighting against it, but Wrex is an incredible exception to the Krogan species, quite literally centuries ahead of his time. By introducing something like the genophage to an already volatile species, it just makes the genocide a slow acting one.

    It's not just the genophage that's killing them, but it's the genophage, in addition to Krogan not being able to socially evolve on their own terms with so many outside influences acting upon them, most of which actually inciting them towards violence. Mordin even outright says this. Not enough consideration was given to the possible ramifications of either the uplifting or the genophage. It might not be the only cause of the genocide, but the Salarian race is absolutely directly responsible for the plight of the Krogan race.

    bar-cc-1.jpg
  • DuxDux A host to DarknessRegistered User regular
    Also, destroying the genophage cure and sending the krogan against the reapers probably won't have a good effect on their morale and numbers, even if you end up destroying the reapers.

  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    because the math says the number of live births (or successful hatchings?) is the same as it was before krogan were uplifted, and they were already becoming resistant to it at one point so it's reasonable to assume they will again develop resistance

    Hopefully after they've had a cultural shift and dropping asteroids on planets is no longer the krogan version if a picnic in the park

    qJGPzDc.jpg
    Satan Info/Wishlist Post (small update 11/20)
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    Precisely. Wrex is considered centuries ahead of his time only because the genophage acted to retard Krogan social development in such a significant manner. Doing nothing would have given the galaxy the same strife, just in a shorter time, allowing the Krogans to adapt to their new role in the wider society. The genophage was a rash decision, a panic move. That's Mordin's biggest gripe. Not its logic, or reason. But its haste.

    scarab you have mental problems
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Giving the Krogan the genophage would almost certainly count under the UN's definition of Genocide

    not everyone agrees with that definition but there you go

    I feel that it is genocide, albeit without the intention to fully exterminate the Krogan

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    wrex himself points out in ME1 that the genophage isn't what's killing the krogan, it's the fact that most krogan would prefer to go out into space and spend their lives as mercenaries than stay on Tuchanka and work on building up their race

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    One might argue that the Krogan are like that because of the psychological traits they developed to survive on Tuchanka. I think it's Eve who says "Krogan are bred for selfishness," or perhaps it's a codex entry.

    not that it might not still be true, just saying

  • DuxDux A host to DarknessRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    wrex himself points out in ME1 that the genophage isn't what's killing the krogan, it's the fact that most krogan would prefer to go out into space and spend their lives as mercenaries than stay on Tuchanka and work on building up their race

    Well yeah, but that's because most of them are suicidally depressed death seekers.

    Dux on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    One might argue that the Krogan are like that because of the psychological traits they developed to survive on Tuchanka. I think it's Eve who says "Krogan are bred for selfishness," or perhaps it's a codex entry.

    not that it might not still be true, just saying

    Pretty much. She also goes onto say that many Krogan (especially females) find such dishonor in not being able to birth, that they just wander out in the wastes until they die of exhaustion. The social impact of the genophage is just as harmful as the medical symptoms, but it's still because of the genophage.

    bar-cc-1.jpg
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Now the Quarian's are in favor of outright genocide (if you believe the Geth are actually a race, which most Quarian's don't seem to)

    bar-cc-1.jpg
  • Garret DoriganGarret Dorigan Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Are you actually offended? Or are you still soap-boxing? I'd like to introduce you to a concept called Devil's Advocate.

    Alt:

    "Never Hit"
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Shepard says this almost verbatim in ME2 and Mordin explains it wasn't designed to destroy the Krogan. It was there to preserve them.

    Intent is very important when determining if something is genocidal.

    scarab you have mental problems
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    Dux wrote: »
    wrex himself points out in ME1 that the genophage isn't what's killing the krogan, it's the fact that most krogan would prefer to go out into space and spend their lives as mercenaries than stay on Tuchanka and work on building up their race

    Well yeah, but that's because most of them are suicidally depressed death seekers.

    were they suicidally depressed death-seekers back when millions of krogan died every day to thresher maw/klixen/varren attacks?

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Well the genophage has been described as a few things during the games

    Sometimes it's described as stillborn children. Sometimes it's described as Krogan being unable to actually get pregnant and so on. The Genophage has been forced sterilization, forced abortion, and quite a few placed in between.

  • DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    man the lack of consistency with the genophage thing makes it a really awkward to argue
    does it result in stillbirths or no pregnancies at all, do krogan give live birth or lay eggs, etc.



    but seriously though the genophage was developed to save the galaxy from the krogan and maintained to save the krogan from the galaxy, the krogan are having trouble Dealing With It because they are a prey species that has evolved to be selfish and shortsighted, and it is an awkward solution but it is better than the krogan undergoing a population explosion and swarming over every available planet they can and probably undergoing a significant population collapse once resources run out

    0BnD8l3.gif
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Shepard says this almost verbatim in ME2 and Mordin explains it wasn't designed to destroy the Krogan. It was there to preserve them.

    Intent is very important when determining if something is genocidal.

    For Mordin's part, yes. Mordin despises any casualties he finds unnecessary.

    But people like the Dalatrass seem to think Krogan extinction via the genophage and division would be the cleanest way of the "Krogan problem" solving itself.

    Why else would they have
    Spoiler:

    bar-cc-1.jpg
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Shepard says this almost verbatim in ME2 and Mordin explains it wasn't designed to destroy the Krogan. It was there to preserve them.

    Intent is very important when determining if something is genocidal.

    yeah, there's a lot of ways to rationalize genocide

    the best of them is saying that it is for their own good

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Shepard says this almost verbatim in ME2 and Mordin explains it wasn't designed to destroy the Krogan. It was there to preserve them.

    Intent is very important when determining if something is genocidal.

    For Mordin's part, yes. Mordin despises any casualties he finds unnecessary.

    But people like the Dalatrass seem to think Krogan extinction via the genophage and division would be the cleanest way of the "Krogan problem" solving itself.

    Why else would they have
    Spoiler:

    tuchanka
    Spoiler:

  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Yes, the poor innocent Krogan who burned worlds to ashes.

    You realize how desperate the Krogan rebellions were right? It was escalating into a conflict in which one race would have probably wiped out the other anyway.

    The Turians were not winning conventionally, they held the line, but it was the genophage that ended the war. Read the codex entries.

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Dichotomy wrote: »
    man the lack of consistency with the genophage thing makes it a really awkward to argue
    does it result in stillbirths or no pregnancies at all, do krogan give live birth or lay eggs, etc.



    but seriously though the genophage was developed to save the galaxy from the krogan and maintained to save the krogan from the galaxy, the krogan are having trouble Dealing With It because they are a prey species that has evolved to be selfish and shortsighted, and it is an awkward solution but it is better than the krogan undergoing a population explosion and swarming over every available planet they can and probably undergoing a significant population collapse once resources run out

    From the codex: "The Genophage does not reduce fertility, but offspring viability."

    So, the former.

    bar-cc-1.jpg
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    If the Krogan didn't want the other races to use a weapon like the Genophage against them, then they shouldn't have attempted to subjugate the Citadel races under brutal military rule.

    Like, I am not saying what happened to them was good. But I am saying that they forced the Salarians and the Turians to use the 'phage, he alternative would have been the Krogan killing and enslaving them all, probably.

    Solar on
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Shepard says this almost verbatim in ME2 and Mordin explains it wasn't designed to destroy the Krogan. It was there to preserve them.

    Intent is very important when determining if something is genocidal.

    yeah, there's a lot of ways to rationalize genocide

    the best of them is saying that it is for their own good

    you really can't compare it to any kind of human genocide

    considering that there isn't any group of humans that are biologically designed to constantly withstand losing the vast majority of their offspring

  • Garret DoriganGarret Dorigan Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Shepard says this almost verbatim in ME2 and Mordin explains it wasn't designed to destroy the Krogan. It was there to preserve them.

    Intent is very important when determining if something is genocidal.

    yeah, there's a lot of ways to rationalize genocide

    the best of them is saying that it is for their own good

    12199965.gif

    "Never Hit"
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    And let's be honest

    the Salarians could have killed them

    it would, as Mordin says, have been easy

    but they made the Genophage because they didn't want to destroy the Krogan, just remove them as a threat

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    I dunno, I pretty much agree with Mordin across the board

    The uplifting was a mistake to begin with, and while the genophage may have been the "right" solution to the problem, it was a problem caused by Salarian's in the first place.

    And judging by Sur Kesh, they seemed to have learned fuck all from the experience.

    bar-cc-1.jpg
  • BaidolBaidol I will hold him off. Escape while you can.Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Shepard says this almost verbatim in ME2 and Mordin explains it wasn't designed to destroy the Krogan. It was there to preserve them.

    Intent is very important when determining if something is genocidal.

    yeah, there's a lot of ways to rationalize genocide

    the best of them is saying that it is for their own good

    12199965.gif

    You are adorable.

    Aren't you? Aren't you?

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    tuchanka
    Spoiler:

  • GoatmonGoatmon Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    A female can have roughly 1,000 kids in a year. Drastically reducing that number doesn't sound so bad when they don't have the environment to curb those numbers naturally.

    Goatmon on
    aik7511.jpg
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    I dunno, I pretty much agree with Mordin across the board

    The uplifting was a mistake to begin with, and while the genophage may have been the "right" solution to the problem, it was a problem caused by Salarian's in the first place.

    And judging by Sur Kesh, they seemed to have learned fuck all from the experience.

    yeah

    uplifting them in the first place was wrong, and while the genophage is morally dubious it's the best possible solution to that mistake.

    of course the uplift was in response to the rachni, so you could make the argument that the rachni were too powerful to do anything but kill them by fucking over the krogan

    but all the details on that sort of thing are vague so you can't really make a value judgment there

  • pantsypantsy Registered User regular
    I am playing on Origin as pantsbear

    I guess I'll just add everyone from the op list to my origin friends list? Is there a better way to do that?

  • Garret DoriganGarret Dorigan Registered User regular
    Baidol wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    yeah, anyone of a race that committed genocide clearly deserves to have genocide committed against them

    They aren't being genocided

    the overwhelming majority of their children die before they carry them to term because of a disease that was designed to destroy their ability to reproduce

    how the fuck is that not genocide?

    Academically.

    The above is eugenics, genocide would be rounding up not only the litter of birth but also their mother, father, uncle, etc. and destroying them by hand.

    Splitting hairs, but there is a hair to split.

    well I'm glad you can tell the difference between actively murdering children and passively allowing them to die by the Billions, capitol "B", from a disease that was designed to destroy their entire culture

    Shepard says this almost verbatim in ME2 and Mordin explains it wasn't designed to destroy the Krogan. It was there to preserve them.

    Intent is very important when determining if something is genocidal.

    yeah, there's a lot of ways to rationalize genocide

    the best of them is saying that it is for their own good

    12199965.gif

    You are adorable.

    Aren't you? Aren't you?

    Quite not, just not really in a mood to really argue against soap-boxing.

    I find being lightly trollish carries the most weight in those situations, anyway.

    "Never Hit"
This discussion has been closed.