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Depends on the champion. Malph and WW can jungle from pre-20 very well, while the Mundos and Rivens are worth pretty much fuck-all pre-30.
I'd wait to level 20 and pick up some AD reds and quints, armor yellows, with choice blues.
Flat AD reds, flat armor yellows, your choices blues (typically flat cdr or some type of MR), AD quints
That will work for pretty much every bruiser jungler in the game, even if not exactly what a given character wants. If you have extra IP, go Flat AS reds and arpen quints for Cho/Mundo.
Sorry bro, already shaved. Also, going out now. I'll hit you up later.
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Now. Make sure you have armor pen reds, armor yellows (tier 1 is fine), and use warwick. Grab a longsword + hp pot and level WQQEQ for abilities. You'll be slower than level 30, but that's fine since everyone else will last hit less effectively than a level 30, and people tend to push out more, making ganks easier.
Edit to add:
This only applies if there is a 50/50 chance of dying. If rewards/penalties are equal, if you can win 75% of fights, aggression is the correct strategy as you'll come out ahead.
The problem is, playing defensively bottom is too powerful. It's harder to initiate a fight to the death than to avoid one, so the only way to win a kill lane is to outskill your opponents.
Probably now with armor yellows.
Nunu and WW can jungle from level 1 with no runes.
The game is not symmetric, since people are picking different strategies and compositions to go. Most of the lack of aggression stuff is based in a hatred of in lane passivity so let's just look at that part of the game.
You can simply make being aggressive more rewarding without making it symmetric. Make trading more beneficial for the person initiating the fights in lanes, if the player dies first but still manages to kill the other player, make it so dead champions gain less benefit from a kill in terms of gold/exp.
The essential problem is that being safe and farming is almost always the better decision than being aggressive and going for the throat. Top and bottom lanes seem to be examples of this.
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i love shen so much
Don't let anyone tell you Shyvana is a bad top lane. Or middle.
As for the jungle, you should be fine at level 20 so long as you go cloth+pots with the standard armor yellows.
The game is symmetric with respect to aggression. If it were not symmetric you would be suggesting that one side has an advantage in aggression in the entire game.
If there is a clear bonus to aggressing and one side has an advantage to aggressing then why are we playing this game? Whichever team as the advantage in early aggression wins the game. GG lets go home at char select.(edit: not to mention that if the other team has such an advantage you tend to play more passively)
But of course that is not true. If you aggress you risk all those things that you gain from aggressing. And, in order to aggress, you must put yourself in a situation where you may be engaged upon.
You cannot make aggression "worth more" and expect it to happen. This has been seen in every competitive computer game ever made.
EDIT:
ROUND 1: GLG in 20 minute surrender
I literally have no idea what you're arguing for anymore.
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It's already trickling down. My second game today was Soraka mid, Mundo jungle and Sona bot with Trist. This was a 5s queue in blind pick, but yeah, it's already happening.
Steam: Jacobontap
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Flat AS reds tend to math out as superior on most junglers. Also, I'd recommend scaling blues for a jungle, since they tend to be better than flats by the time you get use of them (barring fiddle/karthus jungle).
If you have a 75% chance of winning a fight, why will the other guy put themselves in a position to fight?
A: They will not.
If they cannot avoid the fight then we aren't really playing a game anyone wants to play. Because whomever has the advantage simply initiates and wins, snowballs, gg 20 minute surrender.
This isn't even slightly accurate. In team deathmatch, people run into enemies all the time, despite the fact that winning said battle is equally beneficial to both parties, and yet, in LOL, people often avoid to fight to the death bottom lane. Why do you think that is?
and only 2 weeks ago people were dodging because I wanted to mid soraka.
screw you dolphin, screw you whale.
"In team deathmatch"
Saying MID SORAKA OR FEED tend to do that.
This game is ALL about the "exact numbers"! If it isn't, then remove the death timer for the first 20 minutes. At 20 minutes, you can surrender, or deal with a death timer.
And with your "reduce CS gold, increase champ kill gold/assist gold" comment, don't forget the timing. I think it's like...10 seconds? Ten seconds after a champion attacks you, they no longer get assist credit.
I think tower diving is what it is, because that's what it should be. If you're going to get aggressive for that kill, then you need to understand the risk you're taking. If you don't want to risk losing the trade, then don't do it, or take down the tower ASAP so you have more room to chase.
You make it sound like there's no aggression being made early game. There's ton of opportunities for early aggression. Just because you see the pros play passive, or play with passive people a lot doesn't mean the game needs to be changed. The people need to change.
Pretty much.
You can see me here playing stuff: http://www.twitchtv/mynameiskog
Says Mr. "Veigar bot or afk"!
Also, "just because you see the pros play passive" is literally the only thing that matters. I don't care how other people play or how the game plays at lower levels, the only thing worth balancing around is at the very tip top of the game, and if things are bad there, then it needs to be fixed.
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Are you intentionally missing the point? My point is you can change the way the game works, and then people will change how they play the game. This isn't even in contention, Dominion is the same game, in a different mode, which people play vastly differently.
Similarly, you can "force" people to play more aggressively by changing the rule set for summoner's rift a bit to encourage aggressive play over passive CS farming.
It's mostly a game engine issue. I used to tower dive every match as WW back when Flash popped projectiles, because you could negate ~400 damage of tower shots using it properly (one shot in air, one shot lost due to outranging tower) that you need to take now if you tower dive. I still want to tower dive, I just cannot do it successfully anymore. Similar examples exist for other abilities that could be slightly changed to encourage more aggression in play. I agree some players are part of it, but much of it is a reaction to the game rules as they stand.
This is exactly my point. Nerfing sustain into the ground isn't going to make people more aggressive. You have to hit people where it hurts...the gold purse. Change how gold is gained in the game and make it stronger in respect to being aggressive, and people will be more aggressive.
People are saying "oh, well you can get way ahead if you kill someone and blah blah." Obviously, not ahead enough.
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Depends on if your champ has AD scaling or an AS steroid. Warwick wants AD because he has that huge AS buff, and he has no problems clearing buffs, so stacking Armor Pen is a waste because it has no effect on small camps. Shyvana and Skarner want AD for Burnout scaling. Malph, Alitstar, GP, and others want AS.
You can never go wrong with AD, but AS isn't great on anything but junglers.
And I have the best avatar on this page of the thread. That just needed to be said.
fake edit: whoop nevermind
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Are AD marks better on WW? I thought you wanted AS to complement your passive, but I'm a baddie so that could be totally wrong. I'm sure the difference is mostly insignificant.
WW's W scales better with AD than with more AS. The difference is ~10 seconds longer getting to level 4, so it isn't a huuuuge deal, but it is significant.
Spare Scrolls for trade
Check it out.
edit: I know aAa is at the tournament also but ehhhhh
Thanks all! I'm eager to add this role to my stable, because my normal blind pick teams usually lack junglers almost as often as they lack tanks or support (which, I'm increasingly reluctant to play straight support in solo queue).
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There are some "slight" differences between SR and Dominion that changes how things work and without changing the entirety of SR we won't be changing that dynamic.
The dynamic of a passive farming SR is created because you cant win the game until you're strong enough to push their team and their towers down. Such the advantage is never to be strong at the start, but to be strong later. It doesn't matter what team you take you can't win the game before creeps spawn. This dynamic is not present in Dominion. If the other team AFK's you can take the necessary win conditions as soon as you get onto the field.
Thus when we think of aggression in the early/mid game (where there is little aggression) it cannot be "fixed" in these manners. If you make CSing less valuable you're just going to make it easier to come back after losing a lane. It won't make people stop CS'ing because CSing is a corner solution(well, pretty much). Never Stop Farming... Win.
It wont make people more aggressive because the benefits of winning a fight will always be the same as the risks of losing a fight(specifically a gold advantage later). It wont make people take more risks, also because killing other champions is also a corner solution. No one gives up free kills voluntarily.
it's been really rough listening to rivington
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