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[A Song of Ice and Fire, Books and Books+Show] Touch this thread and all shall be spoilt

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  • SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    I'm currently about 1/4th of the way into book 3, and I just started watching season 1 for the first time this weekend. Just finished watching episode 5.
    Is Renly and Loras's relationship ever implied in the books? I never picked up on it.

  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    SteevL wrote: »
    I'm currently about 1/4th of the way into book 3, and I just started watching season 1 for the first time this weekend. Just finished watching episode 5.
    Is Renly and Loras's relationship ever implied in the books? I never picked up on it.

    Heavily implied but also easy to overlook.
    Rainbow guard, and multiple lines from other characters that I don't want to repeat because you haven't encountered some of them and I'm not sure offhand where they all are in the books.

  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Tomanta wrote: »
    Heisenberg wrote: »
    Ill bet cash money on season 3 ending with Tyrion dropping the cup after Joffreys death OR Jon returning to the wall. But Joffrey will die in the same season the RW happens.

    I just don't see that happening.
    To fit all the setup for both events you just won't have anything left for Season 4. The only way I see them doing both in the same season is if they push the RW to Season 4, which I think may be unlikely.

    Balon dies first and is just referenced in passing.

    re: setup
    It occurs to me that
    a) Stannis and the leeches happens roughly half-way through the book (verified: chapter 37 of 82), and
    b) the image of Stannis throwing the leeches into the fire while saying the names of the false kings would be an wonderfully powerful "cut to black" season finale.

    Then you open Season 3b with Balon dying, episode 4 or 5 is RW, and 9 is Joffrey's.

    Tamin on
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote: »
    Rainbow guard, and multiple lines from other characters that I don't want to repeat because you haven't encountered some of them and I'm not sure offhand where they all are in the books.
    I don't think the Rainbow Guard is meant to mean anything like that, it's a symbol of LGBT people in the real world but in Westeros it's a symbol of the religion of the Seven, and it's meant to signify that Renly is a loyal follower of the Seven as opposed to his brother Stannis the heretic.

    You can figure out Loras and Renly's relationship by inference.

  • CristoCristo Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote: »
    Rainbow guard, and multiple lines from other characters that I don't want to repeat because you haven't encountered some of them and I'm not sure offhand where they all are in the books.
    I don't think the Rainbow Guard is meant to mean anything like that, it's a symbol of LGBT people in the real world but in Westeros it's a symbol of the religion of the Seven, and it's meant to signify that Renly is a loyal follower of the Seven as opposed to his brother Stannis the heretic.

    You can figure out Loras and Renly's relationship by inference.
    I think the point is that he picks Loras for the Rainbow Guard so that he can always be close to him; much how Jaime joined the Kingsuard to be close to Cersei, which is the point that was being made. There's a bunch of other subtle inferences, usually made at Small Council meetings by Varys and Littlefinger.

    Unlucky wrote: »
    So, after having read all of his stuff, Pony's officially my hero now. I wish I could be that callous towards humanity.
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    It may be just me, but I do not like how Shae is portrayed in the show. She just seems so aggressive and demanding and I don't get what Tyrion sees in this version of her. Book Shae gave Tyrion what he wanted, affection, fake affection, but it's what he wanted.

    Every scene I see her in makes me want to strangle her for being bitchy and prissy.

    I'm not sure why they changed her character.
    If anything, it takes away from her character. In the book, she does such a great job of pretending to care about Tyrion that her betrayal is supposed to cause him shock and humiliation. But since she is a bitch from the start, it takes a bit of that sting away.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    It may be just me, but I do not like how Shae is portrayed in the show. She just seems so aggressive and demanding and I don't get what Tyrion sees in this version of her. Book Shae gave Tyrion what he wanted, affection, fake affection, but it's what he wanted.

    Every scene I see her in makes me want to strangle her for being bitchy and prissy.

    I'm not sure why they changed her character.
    If anything, it takes away from her character. In the book, she does such a great job of pretending to care about Tyrion that her betrayal is supposed to cause him shock and humiliation. But since she is a bitch from the start, it takes a bit of that sting away.

    The way I saw the character of Shae in the books was more like:
    based off of mutual screwing. And not in the sexual way on one side. I dont think Tyrion every truely gave in to her. He had moments but in the end I what really displeased him was that she essentially broke the contract they had had. Dont be with anyone else and maintain the fantasy is essentially their aggreement and when he saw her in his fathers room, and after what happened with Cersei and Jamie, Tryion had had enough.

    Jubal77 on
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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    I see it a bit differently.
    Tyrion wanted to be loved, you can see it in his relationship with his niece and nephew (not Joffrey) and you can see it in what he says to Shae when Tyrion rides off to fight Robs distraction, "If I die, cry for me." That may be sarcasm, but I think he also meant it.

    Shae's contract was pretty damn close to a marriage (laugh at my jokes, dont cheat on me, ect) and I think Tyrion eventually forgot it was an act somewhere along the line.

    But all that is besides my point. Shae should be feeding Tyrions emotional needs so that her betrayal is much more profound. Her being prissy and a sometimes bitch undercuts that illusion of her caring.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I see it a bit differently.
    Tyrion wanted to be loved, you can see it in his relationship with his niece and nephew (not Joffrey) and you can see it in what he says to Shae when Tyrion rides off to fight Robs distraction, "If I die, cry for me." That may be sarcasm, but I think he also meant it.

    Shae's contract was pretty damn close to a marriage (laugh at my jokes, dont cheat on me, ect) and I think Tyrion eventually forgot it was an act somewhere along the line.

    But all that is besides my point. Shae should be feeding Tyrions emotional needs so that her betrayal is much more profound. Her being prissy and a sometimes bitch undercuts that illusion of her caring.

    Yeah I read:
    the If I die scene as complete and utter Tyrion snark. Yeah I think at points he may have started to lose himself but there was always something there to bring him back out, duty, "loving" sister, the missunderstanding with Jamie, "loving" father, flashbacks to his first wife etc.

    As a man I know its hard to distance yourself from steady "lovin" but for a character as strong as Tyrion I would hope that he never truely have lost himelf again. I think the conversation he had with Jamie when he set him free showed that he always maintained his strength and his shame and mistrust with all of his family. That to me was a sad sad chapter. Especially with knowing that Jamie really does love his brother in more than a side show way.

    Jubal77 on
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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Tyrion though has some serious affection issues.
    Seriously, it's what he wants most. His mom died and his father and sister resent him for it, not to mention he is a dwarf and a Lannister. People hate him a lot. The only people to ever show him (real) affection are his brother and his wife.

    You can see how much he craves it by how he interacts with his niece and nephew and how he treats Sansa. He is completely sympathetic towards her and does everything he can think of to provide her with comfort. Tyrion wanted the illusion of love from Shae and got it. Her betreyal wasn't just one of politics, but an emotional betrayal, "He made me call him Giant of Lannister. Really! (laughs)" Then fucked his father.

    He bought into her illusion. He brought her to court against his fathers wishes, went to extreme measures to protect her from Cersie, made stupid threats when it came to her safety, was remarkably jealous about that bard she listened too.

    Part of him knew what she was, hell he even questioned his own rational, but since she was such a good actor at pretending to be what he wanted, he lost himself.

    But either way, whether he believed his own lie or not, HBO Shae is doing a pretty bad job of acting like she cares about him and I don't buy into her.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    Ill agree with you on HBO Shae. :)

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Ill agree with you on HBO Shae. :)

    That was my original point! Rawr!

    <3

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    So what do you guys think when they get up to the later books will they have seasons of:
    Lannisters, Tyrels and Martels only oh my! or do you think they might try to combine the last books together into one timeline and present it like that?

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  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    So what do you guys think when they get up to the later books will they have seasons of:
    Lannisters, Tyrels and Martels only oh my! or do you think they might try to combine the last books together into one timeline and present it like that?

    Considering the show is not constrained by the POV narrative of the books, I would say that would be a good guess. If they do follow the structure of the books, season 5 would be
    pretty much Dinklage free :(

    GONG-00 on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    They are sure to smush AFFC and ADWD together into a pair of seasons or the like.

  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    They also have a lot of bloat they can cut out. I'm drawing a blank right now, but that Martel prince in ADWD can be cut and perhaps only mentioned in passing if needed. He added almost nothing to the plot and was only introduced to die.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    They also have a lot of bloat they can cut out. I'm drawing a blank right now, but that Martel prince in ADWD can be cut and perhaps only mentioned in passing if needed. He added almost nothing to the plot and was only introduced to die.

    He adds alot.

    Unless you really seriously think Dorne isn't going to be a huge player in the end of the series.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    They also have a lot of bloat they can cut out. I'm drawing a blank right now, but that Martel prince in ADWD can be cut and perhaps only mentioned in passing if needed. He added almost nothing to the plot and was only introduced to die.

    He adds alot.

    Unless you really seriously think Dorne isn't going to be a huge player in the end of the series.

    Yea Dorne is going to be huge IMHO. But that prince who got crispified can most definately be cut out.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    They also have a lot of bloat they can cut out. I'm drawing a blank right now, but that Martel prince in ADWD can be cut and perhaps only mentioned in passing if needed. He added almost nothing to the plot and was only introduced to die.

    He adds alot.

    Unless you really seriously think Dorne isn't going to be a huge player in the end of the series.

    Him dying adds something, he himself adds nothing. We learn no new insight and Dany doesn't care about his position and he accomplishes nothing.

    He can be summarized in passage by his father, "I sent you my son and he died by dragons. I am now mad."

    We don't need to actually meet him or see his arc to understand he is Martels son.

  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    They also have a lot of bloat they can cut out. I'm drawing a blank right now, but that Martel prince in ADWD can be cut and perhaps only mentioned in passing if needed. He added almost nothing to the plot and was only introduced to die.

    He adds alot.

    Unless you really seriously think Dorne isn't going to be a huge player in the end of the series.

    Yea Dorne is going to be huge IMHO. But that prince who got crispified can most definately be cut out.

    Quentyn Martell starring in How to (not) Train Your Dragon

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  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    They also have a lot of bloat they can cut out. I'm drawing a blank right now, but that Martel prince in ADWD can be cut and perhaps only mentioned in passing if needed. He added almost nothing to the plot and was only introduced to die.

    He adds alot.

    Unless you really seriously think Dorne isn't going to be a huge player in the end of the series.

    Yea Dorne is going to be huge IMHO. But that prince who got crispified can most definately be cut out.

    Quentyn Martell starring in How to (not) Train Your Dragon

    LOL. If anything they can just have him show up at court proclaim himself then a few days later get crispified. Would be pretty much all that character accomplished anyways. One and done.

    Jubal77 on
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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    HBO Shae struck me as initially more honest than book Shae, I saw TV Tyrion as initially drawn to the respect and candor that she gave him at the camp, rather than just the sex as in the book.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    They also have a lot of bloat they can cut out. I'm drawing a blank right now, but that Martel prince in ADWD can be cut and perhaps only mentioned in passing if needed. He added almost nothing to the plot and was only introduced to die.

    He adds alot.

    Unless you really seriously think Dorne isn't going to be a huge player in the end of the series.

    Him dying adds something, he himself adds nothing. We learn no new insight and Dany doesn't care about his position and he accomplishes nothing.

    He can be summarized in passage by his father, "I sent you my son and he died by dragons. I am now mad."

    We don't need to actually meet him or see his arc to understand he is Martels son.

    He has to exist for the Dorne plotline to make any sense.

    His quest and death both releases the dragons and shuts that door between Martell and Daeny. God knows what will come of that.

    You'd spend longer trying to not show him then you would just showing him.

  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    On Shae: I still don't like how prissy she is made to be. She didn't need to be all mysterious and world wise and I prefer her being (fake) sensual rather than passive aggressive. He gets enough of that from his sister. Also, what's up with her accent?

    On Martells: Meh, I just don't like all the build up they have over the guy. He exists for the sole purpose to release the dragons and die. I'm not even sure his father will blame Dany. He might, but the man is very pragmatic and patient (locked up his daughter and sacrificed others). If he realizes that his son died doing something stupid, he may accept it was his sons actions and not Dany's. Remember, there are survivors left to tell the tail. He didn't need umpteen chapters for a throw away character.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    There weren't umpteenth chapters. There was like ... 4.

    shryke on
  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    There weren't umpteenth chapters. There was like ... 4.

    To be honest I would prefer Q man showing up being all "I will make her mine it is my right!" and then Dany going "Whiteboy please you dont have what I want" to the chapters involving Daario.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    There weren't umpteenth chapters. There was like ... 4.

    We'll meet in the middle: There was ump chapters.

    Mild Confusion on
  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    I was half hoping for the Daario, Hizdahr, Jorah, Quentyn, and Victarion threads to snowball into the War of the Five Suitors.

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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    The problem with Shae is that it'd be really hard to have the same relationship in the TV show without Tyrion looking like an idiot. In the books he is in MASSIVE denial about, well, pretty much everything about her. He tries to have intelligent conversations with her and she's just like, "uh, durr... Shae get jewelry?" She's obviously just a shallow, dumb little person who's trying to milk this Lannister gig as far as she can, as Tyrion desperately tries to convince himself that they're actually a happy couple. Every other character that meets her, especially Varys, is mystified at what the hell Tyrion is thinking.

    Tyrion is normally such a reliable PoV I think it really slips by a lot of readers when he's being unreliable, mostly about women and his father. But there is no unreliable narrator in the TV show, and book!Shae would probably just be annoying to put up with. Plus this way Tyrion can bounce exposition off her as needed, and the audience can actually see why he's intrigued by this particular whore.

    Although that line in the brothel in ep 1 about pretending to be super-mysterious to get the johns intrigued... I wonder if that'll end up being true for Shae, and all Tyrion's guesses about her were actually true.

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    I was half hoping for the Daario, Hizdahr, Jorah, Quentyn, and Victarion threads to snowball into the War of the Five Suitors.

    Sad thing is Daario is almost a lock to show up in the series. Because its only chance after Drogo died of showing Dany doing the nasty.

    Edit: Other than with her handmaiden... had forgot about that.

    Jubal77 on
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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Concur with Kana. I watched S1 before I read it, and I was surprised how dull Shae seemed in the book, as well as how unrewarding their relationship seemed for a man of his intellect. TV Shae seems to be written with more depth in mind because we won't be seeing her through Tyrion's eyes, and we need to understand what sees in her over any other prostitute in King's Landing.

    The allure of book Shae seemed to revolve around Tyrion being so horribly ugly that even a prostitute showing him feigned affection was rare, a good looking one more so. This does not mesh with how TV Tyrion has been introduced to us, and I'd have a lot harder time accepting it.

    This sums up what I prefer about the TV version thus far:
    -Book Shae went to King's Landing because merely agreed when Tyrion asked her as a way to defy his father.

    -TV Shae *challenged* him to defy his father and take her.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
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  • HeisenbergHeisenberg Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I wouldn't complain about excessive sex scenes at all if they were all with Emilia Clarke.

    dat ass

    Heisenberg on
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    I had gotten super bored of seeing Emilia Clarke naked by a few episodes into season 1.

    But she is waaaaay more attractive with her natural dark hair

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Very cool interview with Gwendolyne Christie, who we'll finally be seeing in this upcoming episode

    http://www.sfx.co.uk/2012/04/11/game-of-thrones-gwendoline-christie-interview/

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Very cool interview with Gwendolyne Christie, who we'll finally be seeing in this upcoming episode

    http://www.sfx.co.uk/2012/04/11/game-of-thrones-gwendoline-christie-interview/

    Very cool. Really looking forward to her performance Sunday.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Can't wait for her to get naked! We need more naked women. And more Hodor too.

    But seriously, I'm glad that she enjoyed reading the books.

    Mild Confusion on
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    That interview is really great, that level of dedication to her craft, pretty sure we are going to see her nailing the part.

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  • Cultural Geek GirlCultural Geek Girl Registered User regular
    I am also extremely heartened by that interview. I had some worries when they cast a woman who didn't seem to have a great deal of muscle tone to start, but now I'm confident that they'll handle the character really well.

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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Registered User regular
    GRRM is on record as saying that the Rainbow Guard is just because people like the colours and its a counterpoint to the Kings Guard. The evidence for
    Loras and Renly's loving relationship are throughout the series and are subtle, in a way. In another way they're pretty in your face.

    It is strange to me that so many don't pick it up - the other person I've known in meatspace to do so was my girlfriend. Brothers, friends all SMS'd me with "Loras and Renly! WTF?"

    Tide goes in. Tide goes out.
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    GRRM is on record as saying that the Rainbow Guard is just because people like the colours and its a counterpoint to the Kings Guard. The evidence for
    Loras and Renly's loving relationship are throughout the series and are subtle, in a way. In another way they're pretty in your face.

    It is strange to me that so many don't pick it up - the other person I've known in meatspace to do so was my girlfriend. Brothers, friends all SMS'd me with "Loras and Renly! WTF?"

    Yeah, remember that Clash came out in like 98, when
    the rainbow flag wasn't exactly a widespread symbol. He said he had no idea. I guess it's just a happy coincidence.

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