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A Thread About Movies

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Posts

  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Season of the Witch was schlocky but there was at least a sense of fun to it. It's like someone took a dash of Kingdom of Heaven, the setting of The Name of the Rose, and the bad guy from Jeepers Creepers and thought they would mix well.

    And for Cage, it was a step up from The Wickerman.

    Mad King George on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Kruite wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Saw Alien again last night. Goddamn that's a good movie. First half or so is literally flawless.

    Whoever did the set design and such for that deserves a blow job along with their Oscar. Just a fucking amazing looking movie in almost every respect.

    I had a few random maybe mildly-negative thoughts or points of discussion that stuck out to me:
    (I guess I'll spoiler it, why the hell not)
    1) The fight near the end where the Alien kills Lambart and Parker (the only 2 others left besides Ripley) just doesn't work very well. You can tell they are trying to struggle with the alien itself not being something they can show on camera moving around like that. As much as they try, the thin human looking silhouette when you see the thing in full view just doesn't work imo. Which is why I believe it's filmed the way it is.

    This is only really notable because it's like the one single time in the whole damn movie where it feels like the special effects technology is holding them back. Which for a fucking 33 year old movie is goddamn impressive. Everything else just worked great imo.


    2) The scene where Ash turns on them is just ... weird. The whole lead up to it is really. It's a great idea in abstract and many parts of it work, but there's something just rushed and off about the whole thing. Like there's a missing scene somewhere in here.

    The captain dies, Ripley finds the instructions to capture the alien and that the crew is expendable. Then suddenly Ash is there next to her and she explodes on him, then cries and runs out. Good stuff, works, etc. Although it's odd he lets her get away here just to attack her literally 2 seconds later.

    So next thing, Ash is trapping her in the main area. And he's just acting ... weird. And I can't figure out why. It bugged me the other times I've watched it too. It's like we're missing a scene where Ash gets damaged or something. He just suddenly behaves so completely and strangely different for this whole scene and it would work if it actually had some explanation but it's just weirdly there. His movements are all wrong, he's acting funny and not all together there and so on.

    It ends up just being very odd and off and feels to me like some small but important scene got left on the cutting room floor. It still kinda works but it always stands out to me.


    3) The scene where they rehook up Ash's head was great. Good practical effects, very creepy, good performance, etc, etc, etc.

    I did find all his comments about the perfection of the alien to be odd though. I could kinda understand him feeling that way, but it seems like they want us (the audience) to buy it to and I just ... don't get that. Looking at this film as the first one with no other context, the alien just doesn't have that mystique about it. It's horrible and rapey and all that, but so far only it's method of procreation has really been notible.

    Other then that, the damn thing isn't much of a "super predator" or some such. It's just a wild animal running around in the air ducts. The main tension comes from how unarmed and defenseless the very small crew is in this very large ship full of nooks and crannies for the thing to hide in and not from the alien being any sort of exceptionally vicious or intelligent or predatory or unkillable thing.

    It just struck me as interesting that the alien came off as scary more due to the discomforting way it's birthed and the helplessness of the crew more then any sort of real inherent danger.

    To this day I cannot figure out what Ash was doing with the
    magazine
    .

    From what I read, he was trying to
    force it down her throat and "rape her" to death with the porno magazine, Alien-style.

    It just seemed such an odd thing to do that it feels like there should be some lead-up to his sudden change in behaviour.
    As far as the Alien is concerned. Yes, the crew is helpless and unarmed against "the beast", but would you not be just as helpless against a lion? Ash's admiration comes from knowledge of the Alien from another source; he knows more about it than the crew and audience knows. Hell, the cold vacuum of space isn't enough to kill it.

    Yeah, I got that. It just felt like the movie also wanted the audience to agree with him, but I just didn't feel it. The damn thing was just a really dangerous animal at that point. Like a lion, as you say. It's kind of interesting looking back on that in light of the reputation the thing has gained over the last few decades.

  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »

    Yeah, I got that. It just felt like the movie also wanted the audience to agree with him, but I just didn't feel it. The damn thing was just a really dangerous animal at that point. Like a lion, as you say. It's kind of interesting looking back on that in light of the reputation the thing has gained over the last few decades.
    Like I said, cutting out the self-replicating nature of it probably diminishes the "perfection" of it, but even then details like having blood so acidic it eats through four? five? decks of a spaceship makes the thing more-or-less unkillable just from even a practical angle.

  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »

    Yeah, I got that. It just felt like the movie also wanted the audience to agree with him, but I just didn't feel it. The damn thing was just a really dangerous animal at that point. Like a lion, as you say. It's kind of interesting looking back on that in light of the reputation the thing has gained over the last few decades.
    Like I said, cutting out the self-replicating nature of it probably diminishes the "perfection" of it, but even then details like having blood so acidic it eats through four? five? decks of a spaceship makes the thing more-or-less unkillable just from even a practical angle.

    Well, it makes killing the thing have a great deal of collateral damage, but at the end of the day it's still dead. And while nuking the site from orbit may be the only way to be sure, it's still a way to be sure. Given that the society in Alien had the technology to build androids of that caliber in the first place it seems reasonable to assume that they could build a killing machine on par with or better than the xenomorph. The only difference is that their machines wouldn't be able to replicate themselves out of the corpses of their opponents which, honestly, is kind of a plus, in case said killing machines ever accidentally decide that you are the opponent.

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  • wanderingwandering be nice to cows Registered User regular
    Grislo wrote: »
    I guess at this point Nicolas Cage doesn't have an agent as such, but just a guy who goes, 'his hair will look HOW bad? He's in!'

    this too shall pass
  • armageddonboundarmageddonbound Registered User regular
    I watched Shame and felt bad because I know guys like that. Carey Mulligan was nice as always though.

  • wanderingwandering be nice to cows Registered User regular
    Would you say you felt......shame?

    this too shall pass
  • armageddonboundarmageddonbound Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    Would you say you felt......shame?

    heh I've actually come to terms my my own perversions a long time ago

  • Xenogear_0001Xenogear_0001 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    shryke wrote: »

    Yeah, I got that. It just felt like the movie also wanted the audience to agree with him, but I just didn't feel it. The damn thing was just a really dangerous animal at that point. Like a lion, as you say. It's kind of interesting looking back on that in light of the reputation the thing has gained over the last few decades.

    A lion isn't always trying to kill you. It may, or it may not. The point is, you understand a lion. You know how it behaves, generally speaking. You know how it breeds, what it eats. You know it needs to sleep and that it doesn't bleed acid. You've got familiarity.

    But you know very little about this alien. And what you do know is so horrifying on the face of it, so bizarre and unlike most anything on Earth, there is simply no way to reconcile it's behavior. Does it want to eat you? It seems to want to murder you for the fuck of it at times, and in very unpleasant ways. Or maybe it wants to use you to make more of those eggs. Who knows? It's incredibly illusive (the movie implies as much). Plus, it just looks so damn terrifying. And you're alone, out in space, months away from the nearest safe harbor. No help is coming. You have no weapons. How do you defend yourself? For all intents and purposes, this thing is a goddamn monster.

    Plus, understand, you're coming at this from an outside perspective, with all the knowledge that brings. You, yourself, are familiar with the concept of the xenomorph, and familiarity generally alleviates fear. Put yourself in the characters' shoes for a minute. I'm reasonably sure your logic wouldn't be quite so well honed, given the stress of situation.

    I'll conclude by saying that the Alien deserves the reputation it has earned in our collective nightmares. It really is one of the most horrifying things imaginable, in my opinion, and easily one of the most memorable movie monsters ever.

    Xenogear_0001 on
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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    shryke wrote: »

    Yeah, I got that. It just felt like the movie also wanted the audience to agree with him, but I just didn't feel it. The damn thing was just a really dangerous animal at that point. Like a lion, as you say. It's kind of interesting looking back on that in light of the reputation the thing has gained over the last few decades.
    Like I said, cutting out the self-replicating nature of it probably diminishes the "perfection" of it, but even then details like having blood so acidic it eats through four? five? decks of a spaceship makes the thing more-or-less unkillable just from even a practical angle.

    Well, it makes killing the thing have a great deal of collateral damage, but at the end of the day it's still dead.

    That can be a defense to severely wound its prey up close, making the prey vulnerable to any other xenos running around. The collateral damage to the starship is enough that it can't be hurt to close to the hull otherwise they risk being temporarily or permanently stranded on a dangerous world only the corporation knows about. Which has to suck for the survivors. However, were this to occur in flight they'd be risking their own lives if the blood melts through the plating (and they can't repair it) so the xeno's defensive counter-measure didn't just leave it dead, it took the prey with it in the process.
    And while nuking the site from orbit may be the only way to be sure, it's still a way to be sure.

    True.
    Given that the society in Alien had the technology to build androids of that caliber in the first place it seems reasonable to assume that they could build a killing machine on par with or better than the xenomorph. The only difference is that their machines wouldn't be able to replicate themselves out of the corpses of their opponents which, honestly, is kind of a plus, in case said killing machines ever accidentally decide that you are the opponent.

    Agreed. My guess is they deliberately don't have those appear otherwise they risk making the xenomorphs irrelevant or less threatening in the setting. In the movies any way I don't know enough about the novels, comics or video-games.

    Harry Dresden on
  • wanderingwandering be nice to cows Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    It's been awhile since I watched Aliens but I remember the part where someone shoots an Alien at close range and gets acid-blood on him but he survives by quickly ripping off some of his clothes or whatever bothering me. In the original movie there was one tiny prick and in the blink of an eye the blood had created huge holes and eaten through floors and floors of the ship.

    wandering on
    this too shall pass
  • BogartBogart Newsflash, fuckwads: I'm a good person. Registered User regular
    He gets some blood on his reinforced body armour and they tear it off him while it's being eaten through. He's pretty much hospitalised for the rest of the movie.

  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    So the Three Stooges isn't getting completely thrashed by critics as expected. It's at 50% on RT so maybe the film isn't the worst thing ever?

    “Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat." - Stannis Baratheon
  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    That is indeed a much higher score than I expected.

  • Xenogear_0001Xenogear_0001 Registered User regular
    It's the Farrelly Brothers so... meh? They do seem to be the ones most suited to doing a modern interpretation of the Stooges.

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  • wanderingwandering be nice to cows Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    He gets some blood on his reinforced body armour and they tear it off him while it's being eaten through. He's pretty much hospitalised for the rest of the movie.
    Still seems like he got off light considering how powerful the blood was in the original movie.

    this too shall pass
  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    He gets some blood on his reinforced body armour and they tear it off him while it's being eaten through. He's pretty much hospitalised for the rest of the movie.
    Still seems like he got off light considering how powerful the blood was in the original movie.

    Didn't the blood fall on the floor in the first movie? Probably eats through quicker when it's gravity assisted, compared to splattering on (roughly) vertical armor.

  • wanderingwandering be nice to cows Registered User regular
    Well that's a good point.

    this too shall pass
  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    I solve problems.

  • AtomikaAtomika rejects your reality, maaaaaaanRegistered User regular
    An early print of The Avengers premiered today. The reactions are aggressively positive. No official reviews allowed for publication until later in the week.

    The post-credits sequence is rumored to be shooting tonight.

  • AtomikaAtomika rejects your reality, maaaaaaanRegistered User regular
  • armageddonboundarmageddonbound Registered User regular
    An early print of The Avengers premiered today. The reactions are aggressively positive. No official reviews allowed for publication until later in the week.

    The post-credits sequence is rumored to be shooting tonight.
    Nice, im trying to keep my expectations reasonable on this though

  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    that poster is hot shit

  • wanderingwandering be nice to cows Registered User regular
    Django Unchained is a western about a black guy teaming up with a white guy to take down an evil white southerner.

    Wild Wild West anyone?

    this too shall pass
  • DeadfallDeadfall Registered User regular
    Re: Alien
    I'll admit, it's been quite a while since I've sat down and watched the entirety of the movie, but regarding Ash's sudden erratic behavior; didn't he receive a blow to the head? For some reason I have a memory of him getting punched by Ripley or something and hitting his head against the wall, and I thought that's what set him off.

    Or am I just remembering something completely different?

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  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    Django Unchained is a western about a black guy teaming up with a white guy to take down an evil white southerner.

    Wild Wild West anyone?

    It's much more blackspaghettisploitation in concept.

  • Linespider5Linespider5 I would've done the same to you, friend Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    Django Unchained is a western about a black guy teaming up with a white guy to take down an evil white southerner.

    Wild Wild West anyone?

    Huh. I thought this was all taking place on some crazy plantation where slaves fight each other gladiator-style. I wasn't exactly on board with that, but...

    This sounds so much more...unremarkable.

    But hell. Tarantino can at least scare up a good cast and a good score. I'm sure I'll have entirely different criticisms once I've actually seen it.

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  • KruiteKruite Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Drake was one of the marines who gets sprayed (the one with the hip-mounted machine gun), and he pretty much dies right there on scene. The other was Hicks, who finishes out the movie wrapped up in gauze. Mind you, he only got a small splatter of the stuff.

    In regards to the Alien self replicating, I don't think Ridley Scott or Giger ever established how the eggs were made. In the deleted scene
    You see the captain cocooned, and he asks Ripley to kill him. No egg in sight as far as I remember
    Ridley axed the scene because he needed to cut time, the scene overall was redundant, and it totally ruined the pacing of the last scenes of the movie.

    EDIT:
    I haven't read all the comics, but from what I read we see the extent of the military technology save for mechs with big guns. Even with wary marines able to fire at will, the aliens always seem to have the upper hand in close quarters. All it takes is one, and there's a lot of them.

    My original analogy, how about its akin to a pissed off liger on steroids.

    Kruite on
  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    Hmm, I might go see Cabin by the Woods tomorrow. No 3D verions means a guaranteed $5 opening matinee at my local theater.

    “Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat." - Stannis Baratheon
  • Mad King GeorgeMad King George Registered User regular
    Kruite wrote: »
    In regards to the Alien self replicating, I don't think Ridley Scott or Giger ever established how the eggs were made. In the deleted scene
    You see the captain cocooned, and he asks Ripley to kill him. No egg in sight as far as I remember
    Ridley axed the scene because he needed to cut time, the scene overall was redundant, and it totally ruined the pacing of the last scenes of the movie.

    This is the scene:

    The one guy is supposed to be a host for the facehugger that will come out and the other guy is getting turned into an egg.

    From wikipedia:
    One scene that was cut from the film occurred during Ripley's final escape from the Nostromo: she encounters Dallas and Brett who have been partially cocooned by the Alien. O'Bannon had intended the scene to indicate that Brett was becoming an Alien egg while Dallas was held nearby to be implanted by the resulting facehugger. Production Designer Michael Seymour later suggested that Dallas had "become sort of food for the alien creature", while Ivor Powell suggested that "Dallas is found in the ship as an egg, still alive." Scott remarked that "they're morphing, metamorphosing, they are changing into...being consumed, I guess, by whatever the Alien's organism is...into an egg." The scene was cut partly because it did not look realistic enough and partly because it slowed the pace of the escape sequence.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »

    Yeah, I got that. It just felt like the movie also wanted the audience to agree with him, but I just didn't feel it. The damn thing was just a really dangerous animal at that point. Like a lion, as you say. It's kind of interesting looking back on that in light of the reputation the thing has gained over the last few decades.

    A lion isn't always trying to kill you. It may, or it may not. The point is, you understand a lion. You know how it behaves, generally speaking. You know how it breeds, what it eats. You know it needs to sleep and that it doesn't bleed acid. You've got familiarity.

    But you know very little about this alien. And what you do know is so horrifying on the face of it, so bizarre and unlike most anything on Earth, there is simply no way to reconcile it's behavior. Does it want to eat you? It seems to want to murder you for the fuck of it at times, and in very unpleasant ways. Or maybe it wants to use you to make more of those eggs. Who knows? It's incredibly illusive (the movie implies as much). Plus, it just looks so damn terrifying. And you're alone, out in space, months away from the nearest safe harbor. No help is coming. You have no weapons. How do you defend yourself? For all intents and purposes, this thing is a goddamn monster.

    Plus, understand, you're coming at this from an outside perspective, with all the knowledge that brings. You, yourself, are familiar with the concept of the xenomorph, and familiarity generally alleviates fear. Put yourself in the characters' shoes for a minute. I'm reasonably sure your logic wouldn't be quite so well honed, given the stress of situation.

    I'll conclude by saying that the Alien deserves the reputation it has earned in our collective nightmares. It really is one of the most horrifying things imaginable, in my opinion, and easily one of the most memorable movie monsters ever.

    It's a predator hunting them in the ship. It's obviously terrifying, but there's little to indicate it's some sort of perfect being or anything like Ash is spouting off about.

    It doesn't mean it's not horrifying or memorable, it just comes off as something that, if they weren't a small bunch of weaponless miners stuck on a tiny ship, they wouldn't have near as many issues with it.

    The loneliness of the movie in general is what makes the Alien truly terrifying. You are all alone with this horrible thing in the black of space. It works really well.

    KalTorak wrote: »
    wandering wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    He gets some blood on his reinforced body armour and they tear it off him while it's being eaten through. He's pretty much hospitalised for the rest of the movie.
    Still seems like he got off light considering how powerful the blood was in the original movie.

    Didn't the blood fall on the floor in the first movie? Probably eats through quicker when it's gravity assisted, compared to splattering on (roughly) vertical armor.

    In Alien, they try to cut the thing off the guy's face and a big spurt of the stuff falls on the ground and eats through 2-3 floors before it stops.

  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »

    Yeah, I got that. It just felt like the movie also wanted the audience to agree with him, but I just didn't feel it. The damn thing was just a really dangerous animal at that point. Like a lion, as you say. It's kind of interesting looking back on that in light of the reputation the thing has gained over the last few decades.

    A lion isn't always trying to kill you. It may, or it may not. The point is, you understand a lion. You know how it behaves, generally speaking. You know how it breeds, what it eats. You know it needs to sleep and that it doesn't bleed acid. You've got familiarity.

    But you know very little about this alien. And what you do know is so horrifying on the face of it, so bizarre and unlike most anything on Earth, there is simply no way to reconcile it's behavior. Does it want to eat you? It seems to want to murder you for the fuck of it at times, and in very unpleasant ways. Or maybe it wants to use you to make more of those eggs. Who knows? It's incredibly illusive (the movie implies as much). Plus, it just looks so damn terrifying. And you're alone, out in space, months away from the nearest safe harbor. No help is coming. You have no weapons. How do you defend yourself? For all intents and purposes, this thing is a goddamn monster.

    Plus, understand, you're coming at this from an outside perspective, with all the knowledge that brings. You, yourself, are familiar with the concept of the xenomorph, and familiarity generally alleviates fear. Put yourself in the characters' shoes for a minute. I'm reasonably sure your logic wouldn't be quite so well honed, given the stress of situation.

    I'll conclude by saying that the Alien deserves the reputation it has earned in our collective nightmares. It really is one of the most horrifying things imaginable, in my opinion, and easily one of the most memorable movie monsters ever.

    It's a predator hunting them in the ship. It's obviously terrifying, but there's little to indicate it's some sort of perfect being or anything like Ash is spouting off about.

    It doesn't mean it's not horrifying or memorable, it just comes off as something that, if they weren't a small bunch of weaponless miners stuck on a tiny ship, they wouldn't have near as many issues with it.

    It's a perfect being the way a shark is a perfect being. Not as in "you literally can't kill this" but as in "this thing has evolved to focus on the sole task of murder and reproduction and it does those things exceptionally well". It's a parasite so adaptable it can reproduce in humans, dogs, giant aliens (from the original crashed ship); it can survive in the vacuum of space; and its smart enough to use its own acidic blood as a tool. Does an individual one go down to some bullets from a Space Marine rifle? Sure. But if you don't check their growth fast enough (like with a NUKE) they'll out-reproduce any rival species.

    A shark will also die to a nuke, or a bullet, or a Roy Scheider. But I'm comfortable calling that a "perfect being".

  • armageddonboundarmageddonbound Registered User regular
    I always thought that giving a cocooned person mercy by setting them on fire was pretty awful. Shit, knock me in the head until I'm silly first.

  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    Cabin in the Woods is sitting at 92% / 7.8 right now on Rotten Tomatoes.

    I was probably going to see it anyway (I've been waiting for it for years), but that pretty much cliches it.

  • wanderingwandering be nice to cows Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    The trailers for Cabin in the Woods make it look unappealing but the astonishingly good reviews plus Joss Whedon means I guess I've got to see it.

    wandering on
    this too shall pass
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    shryke wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    wandering wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    He gets some blood on his reinforced body armour and they tear it off him while it's being eaten through. He's pretty much hospitalised for the rest of the movie.
    Still seems like he got off light considering how powerful the blood was in the original movie.

    Didn't the blood fall on the floor in the first movie? Probably eats through quicker when it's gravity assisted, compared to splattering on (roughly) vertical armor.

    In Alien, they try to cut the thing off the guy's face and a big spurt of the stuff falls on the ground and eats through 2-3 floors before it stops.

    I seem to recall reading or seeing somewhere that the acid blood in the face hugger was orders of magnitude stronger then the blood in the normal alien drone. So, the tiny spurt from the face hugger in Alien was enough to eat through several layers of the ships hull in the space of minutes, but the splashback from the drone blood wasn't nearly as powerful, though in sufficient quantities and given enough time still able to eat through multiple floors.

    Alternatively, the military command believed Ripley's story (or knew more about the aliens then they were saying) and gave the marines some acid neutralizing armor. Shouldn't be that hard to do, a few extra layers of a compressed base (extra strength baking soda?) or something. A little heavier then normal gear, but probably not all that noticeable compared to the hardware they already had, and certainly better then being eaten alive by acid. Considering the level of technology exhibited by Wayland/Yutani, it should only take a few hours to go from "You know, if she's right and we've got alien monsters that bleed super acid out there, maybe some acid resistant armor wouldn't be a bad thing..." to a full production run.

    see317 on
    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • wanderingwandering be nice to cows Registered User regular
    I guess the facerhugger blood being stronger makes sense since the facehugger is more vulnerable.

    this too shall pass
  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    I guess the facerhugger blood being stronger makes sense since the facehugger is more vulnerable.

    And smaller; less blood - more concentrated.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    So, uh... how does the alien producing eggs in the first movie reconcile with the existence of the alien queen as seen in the second? Or did they just completely ret-con the reproductive cycle of the alien for the purposes of having a cool new enemy and we're not supposed to think about that? (And if it's a ret-con I'm cool with that, since the second movie was very good. I'm just not sure what the point of an egg-laying queen is if any old drone can turn creatures into eggs.)

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Also, I would see a Quentin Tarantino movie based strictly on someone saying, "Hey, this is a new movie by Quentin Tarantino," regardless of what it was about. Shit, if you showed me the trailer for Three Stooges and told me it was actually made by Tarantino, I would go see it without question, assuming someone just really fucked up making the trailer. I am willing to give the man an incredible level of benefit-of-the-doubt at this point.

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