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[WoW] Chat Thread: Patch 5.0 on August 28th! Change your passwords.
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I also don't see how vastly restricting the number of effects it can have increases choice
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
Maybe there's a situation where symbiosis-ing the Hunter is called for, but I think at least 9 times out of 10, the DK is going to be the preferred target.
Because rotenone getting it on a whim makes not getting it after three plus years frustrating?
there is no way for the Draenei to get the horse pala horse mount at 20 and 40 now right? Hate the big elephant thingy
would just make a blood elf, but that requires me to make him (or rather her) on a different server since horde is beyond dead on this one
Yes, but what I think he's asking about is whether or not the Drenai are restricted to having the elephant mount and not the Charger. Unfortunately, I think you're stuck with the race specific mount on this one.
Those mounts won't have the Paladin colors, of course.
Oh, I totally forgot there was a palaphant.
Correct, though at level 80 (well, you can start at 77 I think) you can work on getting the argent tournament charger, which is a recolored version of the human/belf charger.
But I had a question with the level 20-50 quests do blood elves get thier own art and the taurens theirs?
Well if I'm the DK I'd beg you to pick someone else because that mushroom thing is about the most useless thing I've ever seen. Unless it's a huge adds fight I guess, even then we have 2 new talents that let us do the exact same thing... Was much cooler when the druid would get Unholy Frenzy from the DK. And to me it looks like Redirect, Soul Swap, Dispersion, and Divine Shield would all be at least situationally better than Death Coil.
The thing is it should be a choice, otherwise what's the point of having some many options if some of them aren't ever going to see use. Not only would it not be fun to have the encounter dictating who to give symbiosis to, but then that opens the door where guilds feel they have to start running a certain set up, which means symbiosis either becomes incredibly gimmicky and irrelevant for content. This isn't even touching on the issues that will arise in PvP.
It's pretty much the whole issue that we saw with the pre-MoP talent trees and glyphs. Choices are only compelling when their all equally valid options. Once you start getting bad choices, you start getting choices that aren't worth the design time that goes into making sure they aren't bugged or OP, but you have to devote it anyways because abilities shouldn't be bugged or OP.
What you don't want is the choice to be the same no matter the encounter. If one of the choices is "extra tank cooldown", that's not really a choice. It's almost always better to get one of those.
maikero@gmail.com if anyone feels so inclined.
Exactly this. It's a bit like Dark Intent in a way. Warlocks would always give DI to Shadow Priests or Boomkins. And if there weren't any Spriests or Boomkin you'd consult the chart. You could give it to that Fire Mage, but the Boomkin gets better mileage out of it.
You can take that sentence and apply it to Symbiosis. Why give it to Class X when it'd be better to give it to Class Y. And that's the kind of thing that shouldn't happen.
If this version of Symbiosis hypothetically makes it to live, you'd probably see Druids giving it to tanks over anything else. Especially early on when everyone's still undergeared. That extra tank cooldown can make a huge difference.
I feel it'll either work out like DI with the X over Y thing, or it'll become trivialized to the point where it just doesn't matter who gets it. It seems like a very messy mechanic, either way.
the difference is that warlocks always assign DI according to the exact same priority list, completely regardless of the situation.
In this implementation of symbiosis, the best target (assuming there even is a "best" target) is dictated by circumstances.
Doing what mill wants just turns symbiosis into dark intent for druids. That isn't better.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
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Giving tanks extra cooldowns would make druids a required class in every raid.
One ability for each druid spec and then another four druid abilities that are assigned based on class role for everyone else (melee, caster, tank, healer).
Now that would give the devs the option to make the druid acquired abilities more pertinent to the druids role. If the feral druid is always going to get the same ability regardless of which class he picks, then the devs can afford to make it a CD that's relevant to a melee dps role. The only downside is that would increase the amount of bitching about how the ability is useless for solo play.
As for the abilities that are given to non-durids, they'd need to stick more with utility (as in no tanking CDs) but it might be easier to pick something that would be useful utility for each role. For example, they could run with entangling roots for all caster dps and solar beam for all tanks.
Right now it's pretty much dark intent 2.0. As Warlock pointed out, who's going to give it to rogues when the group can benefit to a greater extent with other combos.
But having 4+4 abilities is just boring design. Symbiosis should be fun and you should be able to do wacky things with it, imo. I have no problem whatsoever with Symbiosis going to a tank in a progression raid setting 90% of the time. What's interesting to me are those missing 10% where someone finds a way to Rogue kite something (just to use an example already in the thread) or another fun application and also 5mans/non-progress raiding where you have more freedom.
also @Rorus Raz: 25m raids are already designed with the expectation of at least 1 of each class and it's probably not that hard to make 10m encounters not require more CDs than the tank has.
/edit to put it another way: You guys are basically trying to fix an ability for a very narrow part of the game (prog raiding) while at the same time making it worse for the rest.
I'm actually expecting it to not make it to the final product, to be honest. It's too hard a thing to balance and gives druids way too much "must have one along" potential.
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DK: Icebound Fortitude (fine as it is)
Hunter: Deterrence (Needs a longer cooldown)
Mage: Ice Block (Either drop to the 20-40% range instead of 100% or something like "grants X stacks of Ice Block, each stack of Ice Block grants you (100/X)% damage reduction, each attack you take consumes a stack of Ice Block")
Paladin: Divine Protection (longer cooldown, possibly smaller percent)
Priest: Dispersion (30% instead of 90% and a longer cooldown or something like I did with Ice Block or something else entirely)
Rogue: Evasion (shorter duration and/or 25% dodge instead of 50%)
Shaman: Shamanistic Rage (Longer cooldown and shorter duration)
Warlock: Metamorphosis (Just damage reduction, turns you purple. Possibly also immolation aura but then would require less damage reduction, shorter duration, or longer cooldown to stay balanced)
Warrior: Shield Wall (the base 5m cooldown might be a little long but the prot cooldown of 2m is defintely too short)
Just balance them so they all mathematically close such that the encounter matters more for your choice than the class you're picking.
For who you use it on, you could do something like this such that it doesn't matter who you use it on:
Tanks: Faerie Fire (Bear) (so it does damage and has a cooldown)
Melee: Stampeding Roar
Ranged: Nature's Grasp
Heals: Rebirth
Your proposed target spells are as imbalanced as the list now, because which raid encounter needs NG? or which tank really cares for a shitty GCD-waster that does some damage (remember that they want to give the tanks range pulling tools anyway) and you only need Rebirth if you have no other battle rez. So Symbiosis would always go to a random melee. That's even worse than always giving it to the tank, because nobody wants to have it.
I can understand if you find all the choices for your bear unappealing, but that problem should be changed with finetuning and not with a complete overhaul of a fun ability.
I look at symbiosis and it makes me glad that the paladin 87 ability isn't exciting. At least when Blizz finishes up Beta I don't have to be disappointed when the awesome 87 ability that was proposed at the start ends up being really watered down, nor do I have to worry too much about getting used to it, only to have it pulled mid-expansion because it just isn't working out. As long as WoW is a MMO with the concept of weekly caps and rating ladders, Blizz is limited on the extend that they can make abilities awesome because at the end of the day, they have to justify the development time for everything. If less than 2% of the population sees or uses specific abilities, then there is a huge problem because the time spent on it could have been better used elsewhere.
The question of "Why not just give them another button to hit instead" is indeed a good one. Symbiosis as currently presented doesn't fit with the direction they're moving WoW in. It would have fit fine in Vanilla where having wildly imbalanced things all over the place was commonplace and with 40 man raids and 8 possible classes it was basically impossible to not have a class in the raid. Now though--when they're revamping the entire talent system and how mana works to try to achieve a better balance and there's more classes than people in a 10m raid--they shouldn't be messing with an inherently unstable premise as this. So why not just make Symbiosis a Wild Charge like button that does something different in every form and cut out the middleman? If in any way there's a class the druid should always choose no matter the encounter then it's the same thing only sometimes it might not be available.
Look, with the current list it's DKs for Bears, Shaman for Cats, and Mages for Moonkins (Resto escapes this, for PvE at least). That means as long as those classes are there they're who are getting picked and if that class is missing or there's more druids of that spec than players of that class then someone's getting screwed. Of course that whole thing there ignores that tanks will always be the target of it right now since they all get cooldowns. So out of those three only Bears can possibly get something beneficial from being forced to target a tank. This is not fun at all for the druid nor the rest of the raid who never gets to be a target. At least with my proposal anyone in the raid can be a potential target while the druid always gets something beneficial, meaning far more people will get to experience it besides just the tanks and the druid will probably want to experiment by using different classes.
symbiosis giving more cooldowns to tanks doesn't seem particularly well thought out, but aside from the monk one they aren't super-powerful cooldowns either.
Trying to theorycraft around encounters we haven't even seen yet is silly too; even if we can make reasonable guesses about what the optimal target dummy symbiosis targets will be (or survivability in the case of tanks), there are tons of fights in (say) dragon soul where it would've been awesome for a moonkin to be able to get CloS or AMZ or HoJ instead of mirror image.
If somebody whines about not getting symbiosis it's incredibly easy to do what I do when people whine about dark intent: ignore them.
dappled sunlight / strikes your butt
girl you got a / real sweet butt
Also, I saw the perfect example of what was wrong with LFR last night: Enh Shaman constantly at bottom of the meters winning two tier pieces for gear he already had. He spent the entire run bitching that he didn't get the Vial trinket.
I'm still grumpy dwarves didn't get a pally-ram. Every other race gets their own, dwarves have to bum mounts off the humans.
But I was curious are the weapons you get at 20 flavoured for each race or just each side? I would rather not make a draenei paladin to find out
Dwarf, Draenei: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27343
Blood Elf: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27434
Tauren, Blood Elf: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27403
Strange how Human isn't listed at all and Belfs can apparently choose their quest? Wowhead probably has the race restrictions wrong.
The reason Dwarves get horses is becuase they're culturally derived from the same Paladin organization as humans.