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SELECT * FROM posts WHERE tid = 'PA PROGRAMMING THREAD'

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Posts

  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Real men use C++ in cgi format, anyways.

  • jackaljackal Registered User regular
    PHP is easily as bad as VB6.

  • seabassseabass Doctor MassachusettsRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    This is a pretty thorough description of what is bad about PHP. I could sum it up as "nearly everything, but especially the syntax". It's a pretty interesting read, regardless.

    This table on interesting interactions with == is probably the most striking part though.

    Although that
    $arg = 'T';
      $vehicle = ( ( $arg == 'B' ) ? 'bus' :
                   ( $arg == 'A' ) ? 'airplane' :
                   ( $arg == 'T' ) ? 'train' :
                   ( $arg == 'C' ) ? 'car' :
                   ( $arg == 'H' ) ? 'horse' :
                   'feet' );
      echo $vehicle;
    

    prints horse is just as good.

    seabass on
    Run you pigeons, it's Robert Frost!
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    seabass wrote: »
    This is a pretty thorough description of what is bad about PHP. I could sum it up as "nearly everything, but especially the syntax". It's a pretty interesting read, regardless.

    That seems like a good example of why not to use flash for your website, especially if it is the entirety of your website interface. I have no idea what page you were actually trying to link, but I can only assume it is somewhere in there.

    I saw its soul, envied its pride, but needed nothing it had
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig~medium.jpgsteam~tinythumb.png
  • seabassseabass Doctor MassachusettsRegistered User regular
    End wrote: »
    seabass wrote: »
    This is a pretty thorough description of what is bad about PHP. I could sum it up as "nearly everything, but especially the syntax". It's a pretty interesting read, regardless.

    That seems like a good example of why not to use flash for your website, especially if it is the entirety of your website interface. I have no idea what page you were actually trying to link, but I can only assume it is somewhere in there.

    No, just me using the wrong clipboard for pasting links then not checking what's being linked to. Thanks for catching it.

    Run you pigeons, it's Robert Frost!
  • SaerisSaeris Chronogestaltist Trinity, New MexicoRegistered User regular
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I do have a question about the INT_MAX thing in PHP - is the problem that, if the integer in question is already bigger than INT_MAX, then it will actually be some other, lesser value due to the overflow, since nothing can be bigger than INT_MAX? Or is it merely PHP happily returning null, allowing the environment in which the overflow occurred to continue running without any kind of error/log about it? Or both?

    That's right. The value will have already overflowed. The expression "i > INT_MAX" should never evaluate to true.
    zeeny wrote: »
    Saeris wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    It is important to distinguish between languages like Perl (and C) which is a fine language that makes it easy to do bad things, and PHP, which is a bad language.

    I cannot resist linking to PHP: a fractal of bad design.

    A shitload of nitpicking on that page to go with a lot of awful design issues. Still, the wide access, ease of installation and the quantity of code currently in use will keep it near the top in popularity for a while.
    Saying "It's bad, don't learn about it." is not a good idea and should rather be "Don't learn from it.".
    It is still possible to produce sensible PHP code as long as you establish consistent development conventions and environment. Using it as instructional tool? No. Using it as production tool? Not such an obvious scratch.

    Oh, I agree that it's perfectly possible to create sane PHP code. I work with the language pretty often, much to my chagrin, and I've developed conventions to keep it sane.

    I'm not saying it should be avoided, because it can't be avoided. I just think, as that page says, that computer science is a very young discipline, and it can be helpful (and amusing) to identify and analyze the things we do wrong. In this particular case, the thing we did wrong was the majority of a language.

    Nlgya.png
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    oh
    heh
    the flash made me think it really was the right website and I couldn't find what you were talking about because it'd be hard to actually directly link

    hm, that's the same site someone else linked earlier. it's pretty illustrative of the problems php has though

    End on
    I saw its soul, envied its pride, but needed nothing it had
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig~medium.jpgsteam~tinythumb.png
  • seabassseabass Doctor MassachusettsRegistered User regular
    Saeris wrote: »
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I do have a question about the INT_MAX thing in PHP - is the problem that, if the integer in question is already bigger than INT_MAX, then it will actually be some other, lesser value due to the overflow, since nothing can be bigger than INT_MAX? Or is it merely PHP happily returning null, allowing the environment in which the overflow occurred to continue running without any kind of error/log about it? Or both?

    That's right. The value will have already overflowed. The expression "i > INT_MAX" should never evaluate to true.
    zeeny wrote: »
    Saeris wrote: »
    admanb wrote: »
    It is important to distinguish between languages like Perl (and C) which is a fine language that makes it easy to do bad things, and PHP, which is a bad language.

    I cannot resist linking to PHP: a fractal of bad design.

    A shitload of nitpicking on that page to go with a lot of awful design issues. Still, the wide access, ease of installation and the quantity of code currently in use will keep it near the top in popularity for a while.
    Saying "It's bad, don't learn about it." is not a good idea and should rather be "Don't learn from it.".
    It is still possible to produce sensible PHP code as long as you establish consistent development conventions and environment. Using it as instructional tool? No. Using it as production tool? Not such an obvious scratch.

    Oh, I agree that it's perfectly possible to create sane PHP code. I work with the language pretty often, much to my chagrin, and I've developed conventions to keep it sane.

    I'm not saying it should be avoided, because it can't be avoided. I just think, as that page says, that computer science is a very young discipline, and it can be helpful (and amusing) to identify and analyze the things we do wrong. In this particular case, the thing we did wrong was the majority of a language.

    Ooo, apparently we've already covered the thing I linked to. Ooops. My bad.

    Run you pigeons, it's Robert Frost!
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    To be fair, the author of that article also has some rant about C# being "worthless" because it only runs on Windows. Not only is that not true, it's also a worthless point...if you are doing C# web development, it's very likely you are a Windows shop with Windows servers.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Where is that? I can't find that article with a search.

    twitter, github, resume/portfolio, if you like to play or host boardgames online, check out handtracker
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Reminds me of the expensify nonsense about not hiring .NET developers because something something windows.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I don't know, someone was talking about it in the comments section...he just seems like the kind of guy to make pointless claims to "make a point". That doesn't discredit some of the things he says about PHP of course...the "Facts" section is very good, and not tainted with as much opinion...and mostly correct.

    His points up top about predictability and consistency are especially important, and probably the #1 thing that makes PHP terrible to use.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    Joe, I'm not sure that I want to reply, so I'm going to ignore your post, but I'll let you know that I'm ignoring it to illustrate the tone of my none reply.

  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    I don't know, someone was talking about it in the comments section...he just seems like the kind of guy to make pointless claims to "make a point". That doesn't discredit some of the things he says about PHP of course...the "Facts" section is very good, and not tainted with as much opinion...and mostly correct.

    His points up top about predictability and consistency are especially important, and probably the #1 thing that makes PHP terrible to use.

    I don't think he's written any such article. Some people were talking about C# only running on Windows in the comments, but he wasn't involved.

    twitter, github, resume/portfolio, if you like to play or host boardgames online, check out handtracker
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    admanb wrote: »
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    I don't know, someone was talking about it in the comments section...he just seems like the kind of guy to make pointless claims to "make a point". That doesn't discredit some of the things he says about PHP of course...the "Facts" section is very good, and not tainted with as much opinion...and mostly correct.

    His points up top about predictability and consistency are especially important, and probably the #1 thing that makes PHP terrible to use.

    I don't think he's written any such article. Some people were talking about C# only running on Windows in the comments, but he wasn't involved.

    Ah, fair enough. Doesn't shock me that any sort of programming blog turns in to a language religious war in the comments section.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • ToddJewellToddJewell Registered User regular
    It's like throwing up, you go 10 years without doing it and suddenly you're like hey why not, and then you realize that's a terrible idea

    Sorry but I read this and had to ask... were you ever really like, 'hey let's throw up?'

    Going on four days now without hearing from one of my employees, good job dude.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I will say this though, reading that article has given me an idea of some things NOT to do in my 'Bliss' project, when writing my own BASIC dialect. Consistency and predictability: Even MORE important for non-programmers than programmers.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    ToddJewell wrote: »
    It's like throwing up, you go 10 years without doing it and suddenly you're like hey why not, and then you realize that's a terrible idea

    Sorry but I read this and had to ask... were you ever really like, 'hey let's throw up?'

    Going on four days now without hearing from one of my employees, good job dude.

    Hah was this what I said when I was talking about MFC?

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    ToddJewell wrote: »
    It's like throwing up, you go 10 years without doing it and suddenly you're like hey why not, and then you realize that's a terrible idea

    Sorry but I read this and had to ask... were you ever really like, 'hey let's throw up?'

    Going on four days now without hearing from one of my employees, good job dude.

    Four days? What in the fuck...why do people think this kind of stuff is okay?

    If something that major in your life happened that you need to be gone for four days, maybe call your boss and at least give them a heads up?

    I mean, I'm hoping the guy is alright, but if he is alright, someone needs to teach him about the real world.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • jackaljackal Registered User regular
    C# would be perfect if Microsoft would open source WPF.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    jackal wrote: »
    C# would be perfect if Microsoft would open source WPF.

    It doesn't need to be open sourced. WPF is just a combination of XAML + Avalon. The issue with WPF on other platforms is the Avalon bit, not the XAML bit. In fact, Mono already has System.Xaml.

    Mono is working on an Avalon-esque system that piggy backs on DRI, but DRI is still flaky as shit on most Linux platforms, so there is no telling if it ever comes to fruition...but that is a pre-requisite to ever seeing 'WPF' on a non-Windows platform.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    ToddJewell wrote: »
    It's like throwing up, you go 10 years without doing it and suddenly you're like hey why not, and then you realize that's a terrible idea

    Sorry but I read this and had to ask... were you ever really like, 'hey let's throw up?'

    Going on four days now without hearing from one of my employees, good job dude.

    Four days? What in the fuck...why do people think this kind of stuff is okay?

    If something that major in your life happened that you need to be gone for four days, maybe call your boss and at least give them a heads up?

    I mean, I'm hoping the guy is alright, but if he is alright, someone needs to teach him about the real world.

    i've had a couple of run in's with this type of behavior... once it was a guy who got himself arrested, once it was a guy who managed to get himself hired only to take advantage of the dental plan... my boss hated dealing with HR so much it took him like 3-4 months of not showing up 80% of the time to be let go.

    The latest time one of my guys went missing on me was because he killed himself. Pretty please, check that this isn't the case, and if it unfortunately is, PM me, and I'll point you in direction for resources with how to deal.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Yeah, like I said, I hope he's okay...and if he is, he needs a stern talking to about the real world.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • IncindiumIncindium Registered User regular
    seabass wrote: »
    Although that
    $arg = 'T';
      $vehicle = ( ( $arg == 'B' ) ? 'bus' :
                   ( $arg == 'A' ) ? 'airplane' :
                   ( $arg == 'T' ) ? 'train' :
                   ( $arg == 'C' ) ? 'car' :
                   ( $arg == 'H' ) ? 'horse' :
                   'feet' );
      echo $vehicle;
    

    prints horse is just as good.

    I can't even wrap my head around that even after reading more about right vs left associative ternary operators.

    http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7407273/why-is-the-conditional-operator-right-associative

    WTF

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    A left associative ternary operator is pretty stupid.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • ToddJewellToddJewell Registered User regular
    yeah he has had some issues in his past... I have the owners looking into it. Hopefully it isn't anything serious and he was just sick of dealing with me and this is his non-confrontational way of quitting.

  • jackaljackal Registered User regular
    Avalon is WPF. WPF doesn't even necessarily need XAML.

  • Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    ToddJewell wrote: »
    yeah he has had some issues in his past... I have the owners looking into it. Hopefully it isn't anything serious and he was just sick of dealing with me and this is his non-confrontational way of quitting.

    talk to HR, tell them the situation and get his contact/next of kin contacts. start making calls. hopefully with no nasty surprises.

  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Yeah this kind of stuff happens where you like fall and slip and crack your head open and you live alone. 3 days I'd have called the cops to go check on him if he didn't answer his home phone.

    If he's there he'll probably be like "uh yeah sorry I'm not dying or in jail or anything." Plus they can usually tell you if he's been booked for something too.

  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    In happier news, I'm getting paid to program.

    Well, sort of, I'm getting paid to do my normal tech support job but I'll be off the phone for a few minutes to tomorrow to write a python script to save us from a (likely one-time) boring, monotonous task.

    In any case, I can put it on a resume :).

    camo_sig2.png
  • WeretacoWeretaco Cubicle Gangster Registered User regular
    I'm just gonna give you guys another one today as a bonus.
    GOSUB 9990
    10 BLAH
         ....
    100 BLAHMORE!
    
    9990 ... CODE HERE
    IF ART EQ 2 THEN RETURN TO 100
    RETURN
    

    Unofficial PA IRC chat: #paforums at irc.slashnet.org
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    jackal wrote: »
    Avalon is WPF. WPF doesn't even necessarily need XAML.

    Not quite. Avalon is a low level vector drawing API in Windows, that is backed by hardware acceleration through WDMI drivers (the driver architecture introduced in Windows Vista).

    WPF is a class library wrapped around that low level drawing API which uses XAML to express layered object hierarchies. You can write low level Avalon code and you aren't writing "WPF". You can certainly do WPF without XAML, but there is no point really. Having the view layer expressed separately from the logic layer is a key factor in what makes WPF....WPF. You could do this with partial classes or aggregate proxies, but it wouldn't be nearly as clean.

    The reason WPF does not exist in Mono is not because Mono is incapable of presenting the WPF API, but because it has no ubiquitous vector graphics API to connect to. Things like Berlin are trying to make vector graphics ubiquitous at the driver level in Linux, but it isn't quite there yet.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • jackaljackal Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Avalon was the codename used for WPF. If the vector graphics were the problem Moonlight wouldn't exist.

    jackal on
  • KambingKambing Registered User regular
    Joe K wrote: »
    zeeny wrote: »
    jackal wrote: »
    Not all programming language re created equal. It is perfectly valid to say "don't learn PHP" when there are plenty of perfectly good languages that don't try to kick you in the balls at every turn.

    I can't accept don't learn X for valid advice, especially towards young programmers, when we are talking about one of the most heavily represented languages on the job market. Kudos to anybody who can.

    PHP is a kiddie toy, and the 3 top in use languages are C, Java, C++. It's a shame that Java is there, as I think it teaches poor practices as well.

    PHP falls in the catoegory of "meh, i'd prefer not to, but i'm sure that i can make a mod for you in it" category... It's not really worth "studying", and there are better techs out there. No, it doesn't have that big of an extension base, no it's community isn't that big, why haven't they made the language sensible yet?

    If I were *teaching* programming (not computer science), pre-college, I would prbly start off with Python. If you're in a tech college/eng program, C for you.

    And if you're @Kambing, I'll be sure to refer them to you as the crazy old professor who swears that every programming task can be done functionally.

    Every task can be done functionally though. ^_^

    (And for the record, my intro cs class this summer is using python. I'm still developing the class, but if people that are learning about programming/cs are interested in previewing materials, let me know.)

    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Kambing wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    zeeny wrote: »
    jackal wrote: »
    Not all programming language re created equal. It is perfectly valid to say "don't learn PHP" when there are plenty of perfectly good languages that don't try to kick you in the balls at every turn.

    I can't accept don't learn X for valid advice, especially towards young programmers, when we are talking about one of the most heavily represented languages on the job market. Kudos to anybody who can.

    PHP is a kiddie toy, and the 3 top in use languages are C, Java, C++. It's a shame that Java is there, as I think it teaches poor practices as well.

    PHP falls in the catoegory of "meh, i'd prefer not to, but i'm sure that i can make a mod for you in it" category... It's not really worth "studying", and there are better techs out there. No, it doesn't have that big of an extension base, no it's community isn't that big, why haven't they made the language sensible yet?

    If I were *teaching* programming (not computer science), pre-college, I would prbly start off with Python. If you're in a tech college/eng program, C for you.

    And if you're @Kambing, I'll be sure to refer them to you as the crazy old professor who swears that every programming task can be done functionally.

    Every task can be done functionally though. ^_^

    (And for the record, my intro cs class this summer is using python. I'm still developing the class, but if people that are learning about programming/cs are interested in previewing materials, let me know.)

    Five years ago, learning PHP was a nightmare in school because we did it with Notepad and Dreamweaver, and debugging that shit boiled down to uploading it and checking the php error your browser spat at you. I got mad and jealous when an internship used nothing but Zend Studio and wow, what a difference.

    After a five year hiatus due to ROTC, for that senior design project I just finished, I noticed Dreamweaver caught up with PHP error detection alongside Zend Studio where dropping the extra $270 was not necessary.

    EDIT - These Java enums are pretty badass. I'm just wrestling with making that hierarchy tree example.

    Cantido on
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  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Graphics in Linux is just a huge mess anyway, I'd be surprised if they ever get it figured out

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    jackal wrote: »
    Avalon was the codename used for WPF. If the vector graphics were the problem Moonlight wouldn't exist.

    Uhhh, Moonlight is a Silverlight thing. Silverlight != WPF. While Silverlight is a subset of WPF, they are actually different internal code bases with completely different rendering backends.

    e: Here is the list of Moonlight dependencies:

    Gtk+ 2.0 development package
    XULRunner development package
    for example: mozilla-xulrunner190-devel for firefox 3, mozilla-xulrunner181-devel for firefox 2
    Alsa and/or PulseAudio development packages

    Nothing in there is vector or 3D. It doesn't implement a full vectored/scalar transform backend like WPF requires to function. It's a subset, just as it should be.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »
    Kambing wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    zeeny wrote: »
    jackal wrote: »
    Not all programming language re created equal. It is perfectly valid to say "don't learn PHP" when there are plenty of perfectly good languages that don't try to kick you in the balls at every turn.

    I can't accept don't learn X for valid advice, especially towards young programmers, when we are talking about one of the most heavily represented languages on the job market. Kudos to anybody who can.

    PHP is a kiddie toy, and the 3 top in use languages are C, Java, C++. It's a shame that Java is there, as I think it teaches poor practices as well.

    PHP falls in the catoegory of "meh, i'd prefer not to, but i'm sure that i can make a mod for you in it" category... It's not really worth "studying", and there are better techs out there. No, it doesn't have that big of an extension base, no it's community isn't that big, why haven't they made the language sensible yet?

    If I were *teaching* programming (not computer science), pre-college, I would prbly start off with Python. If you're in a tech college/eng program, C for you.

    And if you're @Kambing, I'll be sure to refer them to you as the crazy old professor who swears that every programming task can be done functionally.

    Every task can be done functionally though. ^_^

    (And for the record, my intro cs class this summer is using python. I'm still developing the class, but if people that are learning about programming/cs are interested in previewing materials, let me know.)

    Five years ago, learning PHP was a nightmare in school because we did it with Notepad and Dreamweaver, and debugging that shit boiled down to uploading it and checking the php error your browser spat at you. I got mad and jealous when an internship used nothing but Zend Studio and wow, what a difference.

    After a five year hiatus due to ROTC, for that senior design project I just finished, I noticed Dreamweaver caught up with PHP error detection alongside Zend Studio where dropping the extra $270 was not necessary.

    EDIT - These Java enums are pretty badass. I'm just wrestling with making that hierarchy tree example.

    Dude, PhpStorm. You'll thank me later.

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  • jackaljackal Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    jackal wrote: »
    Avalon was the codename used for WPF. If the vector graphics were the problem Moonlight wouldn't exist.

    Uhhh, Moonlight is a Silverlight thing. Silverlight != WPF. While Silverlight is a subset of WPF, they are actually different internal code bases with completely different rendering backends.

    e: Here is the list of Moonlight dependencies:

    Gtk+ 2.0 development package
    XULRunner development package
    for example: mozilla-xulrunner190-devel for firefox 3, mozilla-xulrunner181-devel for firefox 2
    Alsa and/or PulseAudio development packages

    Nothing in there is vector or 3D. It doesn't implement a full vectored/scalar transform backend like WPF requires to function. It's a subset, just as it should be.

    You're pretty dedicated to this whole being wrong thing.

    Miguel de Icaza has at least never pointed to lack of vector or 3D support as a reason not to tackle WPF. He always points to the complexity of the entire stack. WPF is mostly managed. If the managed parts were opened source the only thing left would be to reimplement milcore.

    jackal on
  • Mike DangerMike Danger "Diane..." a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    So I set up my databases (such as they are for the time being...I have to devote some more time later to updating them to incorporate more degrees). I wanted to start by generating a page that just has a list of every major. A major has a name and a shortname (i.e. "Computer Science", "CSCI").

    edit: wait, I want to try more stuff before I complain about this

    Mike Danger on
    Steam: Mike Danger | PSN: remadeking
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