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[LGBT]: Bigots can go eat a bag of [Chick-Fil-A]

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  • AtomikaAtomika (citation needed)Registered User regular
    Decomposey wrote: »
    The Lutheran stuff I've been exposed to come from my mother and her preacher, who maintain that "The only thing keeping you out of hell is gods mercy, because we're all dirty dirty sinners. Seriously, you are sinning it up from day one, and there is nothing you can do to make up for that. But god forgives you and will let you into heaven anyway, because he's just awesome like that. No matter what you do, god still loves you."

    Doesn't stop my mother from being as bigoted and hateful as Fox News tells her she should be, but a least the religious message isn't that bad.



    O_o

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Man where did you find hardcore Lutherans? The ones I grew up among were all boring as hell.

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  • DecomposeyDecomposey Registered User regular
    Decomposey wrote: »
    The Lutheran stuff I've been exposed to come from my mother and her preacher, who maintain that "The only thing keeping you out of hell is gods mercy, because we're all dirty dirty sinners. Seriously, you are sinning it up from day one, and there is nothing you can do to make up for that. But god forgives you and will let you into heaven anyway, because he's just awesome like that. No matter what you do, god still loves you."

    Doesn't stop my mother from being as bigoted and hateful as Fox News tells her she should be, but a least the religious message isn't that bad.



    O_o

    Not that bad as in it says everyone gets a free ride to heaven so long as they want one. Which compared to other religious ideologies *cough*Westboro*cough* having the ideology that everyone is equally fucked up but saved because god is merciful isn't that bad. At least it doesn't make me sigh and shake my head like a lot of the baptists do.

    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, I feel I should warn you: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I gotta say, while I may be an agnostic now, growing up Methodist sure seemed like a much better track than most of my friends that grew up Baptist or Church of Christ.

    Methodism treats religion more like a hobbyists' club. However, the old joke is true: Jews don't recognize Jesus, Protestants don't recognize the Pope, and Baptists don't recognize each other on Saturday night.

    How do you tell the Methodists in a small town from the Baptists?

    Baptists are drinking their beer out of red plastic cups.

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  • AtomikaAtomika (citation needed)Registered User regular
    Decomposey wrote: »
    Decomposey wrote: »
    The Lutheran stuff I've been exposed to come from my mother and her preacher, who maintain that "The only thing keeping you out of hell is gods mercy, because we're all dirty dirty sinners. Seriously, you are sinning it up from day one, and there is nothing you can do to make up for that. But god forgives you and will let you into heaven anyway, because he's just awesome like that. No matter what you do, god still loves you."

    Doesn't stop my mother from being as bigoted and hateful as Fox News tells her she should be, but a least the religious message isn't that bad.



    O_o

    Not that bad as in it says everyone gets a free ride to heaven so long as they want one. Which compared to other religious ideologies *cough*Westboro*cough* having the ideology that everyone is equally fucked up but saved because god is merciful isn't that bad. At least it doesn't make me sigh and shake my head like a lot of the baptists do.

    I personally don't understand how a "faith-based salvation" system works. It's what sets Christianity apart from other religions, like Judaism.

    There seems to be an inordinate amount of prescribed behaviors and works suggested or mandated for a belief system dependent wholly on faith, not acts.

  • DecomposeyDecomposey Registered User regular
    Decomposey wrote: »
    Decomposey wrote: »
    The Lutheran stuff I've been exposed to come from my mother and her preacher, who maintain that "The only thing keeping you out of hell is gods mercy, because we're all dirty dirty sinners. Seriously, you are sinning it up from day one, and there is nothing you can do to make up for that. But god forgives you and will let you into heaven anyway, because he's just awesome like that. No matter what you do, god still loves you."

    Doesn't stop my mother from being as bigoted and hateful as Fox News tells her she should be, but a least the religious message isn't that bad.



    O_o

    Not that bad as in it says everyone gets a free ride to heaven so long as they want one. Which compared to other religious ideologies *cough*Westboro*cough* having the ideology that everyone is equally fucked up but saved because god is merciful isn't that bad. At least it doesn't make me sigh and shake my head like a lot of the baptists do.

    I personally don't understand how a "faith-based salvation" system works. It's what sets Christianity apart from other religions, like Judaism.

    There seems to be an inordinate amount of prescribed behaviors and works suggested or mandated for a belief system dependent wholly on faith, not acts.

    Neither do I really, which is why I'm not religeous. I chalk it up to the organized churchs wanting to maintain power over its members. People, mucking up good ideas since forever.

    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, I feel I should warn you: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Decomposey wrote: »
    Decomposey wrote: »
    Decomposey wrote: »
    The Lutheran stuff I've been exposed to come from my mother and her preacher, who maintain that "The only thing keeping you out of hell is gods mercy, because we're all dirty dirty sinners. Seriously, you are sinning it up from day one, and there is nothing you can do to make up for that. But god forgives you and will let you into heaven anyway, because he's just awesome like that. No matter what you do, god still loves you."

    Doesn't stop my mother from being as bigoted and hateful as Fox News tells her she should be, but a least the religious message isn't that bad.



    O_o

    Not that bad as in it says everyone gets a free ride to heaven so long as they want one. Which compared to other religious ideologies *cough*Westboro*cough* having the ideology that everyone is equally fucked up but saved because god is merciful isn't that bad. At least it doesn't make me sigh and shake my head like a lot of the baptists do.

    I personally don't understand how a "faith-based salvation" system works. It's what sets Christianity apart from other religions, like Judaism.

    There seems to be an inordinate amount of prescribed behaviors and works suggested or mandated for a belief system dependent wholly on faith, not acts.

    Neither do I really, which is why I'm not religeous. I chalk it up to the organized churchs wanting to maintain power over its members. People, mucking up good ideas since forever.

    It's not hard to understand. You draw closer to understanding the divine, and grow your faith, by your acts. Your acts do not save you, but they do inform you and shape your understanding. They deepen your capacity for faith and love (or fear and hate).

    Your actions should express your faith, and your faith grows through your actions. Through faith lies salvation.

    Easy! Also, easier said than done.

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  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    That is one thing that always kind of bothered me about some religions. You can be the absolute worst person in the world for 99% of your life, but if you repent on your deathbed you get salvation / eternal life / entrance into heaven / ultimate religious reward. I mean I guess they're basing it off of God knowing whether your repentance is true or not, and if it is true then you're good to go, but if you lied you still don't get rewarded? I dunno, it's one of many things that doesn't make a ton of sense about religion to me.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    chrisnl wrote: »
    That is one thing that always kind of bothered me about some religions. You can be the absolute worst person in the world for 99% of your life, but if you repent on your deathbed you get salvation / eternal life / entrance into heaven / ultimate religious reward. I mean I guess they're basing it off of God knowing whether your repentance is true or not, and if it is true then you're good to go, but if you lied you still don't get rewarded? I dunno, it's one of many things that doesn't make a ton of sense about religion to me.

    I think your challenge understanding that comes from trying to apply your own sense of justice to God's judgment. If you ask a preacher whether an evil person who repents on his deathbed will go to heaven, both Yes and No are wrong answers for him to give you. The correct answer is "That's a question only God can answer." Hopefully some discussion about the nature of repentance (vs, say, apology or remorse) would ensue.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    I love the "stop asking silly questions" response.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    It's more accurately described as the "I don't know the mind of God" response, unless you're predisposed to dislike and distrust religion. I remember being like that!

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  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    Decomposey wrote: »
    Decomposey wrote: »
    The Lutheran stuff I've been exposed to come from my mother and her preacher, who maintain that "The only thing keeping you out of hell is gods mercy, because we're all dirty dirty sinners. Seriously, you are sinning it up from day one, and there is nothing you can do to make up for that. But god forgives you and will let you into heaven anyway, because he's just awesome like that. No matter what you do, god still loves you."

    Doesn't stop my mother from being as bigoted and hateful as Fox News tells her she should be, but a least the religious message isn't that bad.



    O_o

    Not that bad as in it says everyone gets a free ride to heaven so long as they want one. Which compared to other religious ideologies *cough*Westboro*cough* having the ideology that everyone is equally fucked up but saved because god is merciful isn't that bad. At least it doesn't make me sigh and shake my head like a lot of the baptists do.

    I personally don't understand how a "faith-based salvation" system works. It's what sets Christianity apart from other religions, like Judaism.

    There seems to be an inordinate amount of prescribed behaviors and works suggested or mandated for a belief system dependent wholly on faith, not acts.
    While I personally find the belief system completely abhorrent, I can see why it's so popular - you don't have to do anything. Feel like you're in need of salvation? Bam, saved.

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  • nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    What the heck is religion if not pretending to know the mind of God?

    Carl Sagan wrote:
    The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    A discussion entirely separate from this thread.

  • nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Decomposey wrote: »
    Decomposey wrote: »
    The Lutheran stuff I've been exposed to come from my mother and her preacher, who maintain that "The only thing keeping you out of hell is gods mercy, because we're all dirty dirty sinners. Seriously, you are sinning it up from day one, and there is nothing you can do to make up for that. But god forgives you and will let you into heaven anyway, because he's just awesome like that. No matter what you do, god still loves you."

    Doesn't stop my mother from being as bigoted and hateful as Fox News tells her she should be, but a least the religious message isn't that bad.



    O_o

    Not that bad as in it says everyone gets a free ride to heaven so long as they want one. Which compared to other religious ideologies *cough*Westboro*cough* having the ideology that everyone is equally fucked up but saved because god is merciful isn't that bad. At least it doesn't make me sigh and shake my head like a lot of the baptists do.

    I personally don't understand how a "faith-based salvation" system works. It's what sets Christianity apart from other religions, like Judaism.

    There seems to be an inordinate amount of prescribed behaviors and works suggested or mandated for a belief system dependent wholly on faith, not acts.
    While I personally find the belief system completely abhorrent, I can see why it's so popular - you don't have to do anything. Feel like you're in need of salvation? Bam, saved.

    In fairness, it isn't really that easy, provided that the salvation in question requires genuine repentance. And it follows from there that the point isn't to give special privileges to those who are in the Jesus club, but for people to grow and attain a level of godliness by reflecting on their actions before passing to the hereafter. Of course, this is all a way to bend over backwards to retcon the "For I am a jealous God" bit. Jealousy isn't something I would typically associate with supreme beings, though it offers a less savory explanation for the whole primacy of faith thing.

    More to my taste is the simplest explanation of all; faith is an effective meme. Get in the club, or get in the lake of fire. Like those chain letters that claim you'll be hit by a truck if you don't forward them.

    EDIT: point to Quid; this is not a general-purpose religion thread and I am a bad person for acting as if it were.

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Thanatos on
  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I don't know, that 'faith as small as a mustard seed' thing gets a lot of play, and I'd say believing you need salvation and the ol' Jeebus can provide it meets that standard.

    But again, Christianity can slide comfortably anywhere along the 'were all unworthy irredeemable sinners who will burn' to 'tou're good if you have any faith whatsoever, even implied, in the great JC'. Hell, they can even believe BOTH (option heaven for themselves, option burning hell for the gays).

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »

    Every year I go to North Carolina with a large group of my friends (and my boyfriend) and rent a beach house for a week around memorial day. (Outer banks) If Amendment One becomes law, I am probably going to stop going to this vacation, as I don't really want any of my money to go to NC ever again if it passes. This would make me very sad.

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Every year I go to North Carolina with a large group of my friends (and my boyfriend) and rent a beach house for a week around memorial day. (Outer banks) If Amendment One becomes law, I am probably going to stop going to this vacation, as I don't really want any of my money to go to NC ever again if it passes. This would make me very sad.
    I mean, I'm certainly no expert on North Carolina, but... is there really any chance at all it won't pass?

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot P'burg, MTRegistered User regular
    Polls have consistently shown that if people actually know what it does, it goes down by something like 20 points. The task becomes education, and there is a group dedicated to that, but I'm not sure how well they're doing.

    Spoiler:
  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    North Carolina is also a state that is becoming more liberal as the population gets more urban.

    DoctorArch on
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  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    chrisnl wrote: »
    That is one thing that always kind of bothered me about some religions. You can be the absolute worst person in the world for 99% of your life, but if you repent on your deathbed you get salvation / eternal life / entrance into heaven / ultimate religious reward. I mean I guess they're basing it off of God knowing whether your repentance is true or not, and if it is true then you're good to go, but if you lied you still don't get rewarded? I dunno, it's one of many things that doesn't make a ton of sense about religion to me.

    I think your challenge understanding that comes from trying to apply your own sense of justice to God's judgment. If you ask a preacher whether an evil person who repents on his deathbed will go to heaven, both Yes and No are wrong answers for him to give you. The correct answer is "That's a question only God can answer." Hopefully some discussion about the nature of repentance (vs, say, apology or remorse) would ensue.

    And yet people get hung up on acts. "He's a homo, it doesn't matter if he believes in JC with all his heart and just thinks that the anti-homo parts of the bible must be wrong, we must shun him and treat him like shit because that's one of the acts that we don't allow for in our faith." People who spout the bullshit you do say, "Well, I'm just striving to be closer to god, sure, I sin now and then, but the truth is that I have faith and just don't think the bible explicitly tells me not to be so damn selfish and have all this money while ignoring the poor." Your entire faith, and every member of it, is incredibly selective about what does and doesn't fall under their personal salvation clauses.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Now I'm spouting bullshit and we're indicting every member of my faith?

    That's, like, your opinion, man.

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  • AtomikaAtomika (citation needed)Registered User regular
    Let's all back off a bit. I don't want this thread locked over personal matters and religious quibbling.

  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    chrisnl wrote: »
    That is one thing that always kind of bothered me about some religions. You can be the absolute worst person in the world for 99% of your life, but if you repent on your deathbed you get salvation / eternal life / entrance into heaven / ultimate religious reward. I mean I guess they're basing it off of God knowing whether your repentance is true or not, and if it is true then you're good to go, but if you lied you still don't get rewarded? I dunno, it's one of many things that doesn't make a ton of sense about religion to me.

    That's a pretty big issue in secular law. What do you do after rehabilitation?

  • pablo_pricepablo_price Registered User regular
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    North Carolina is also a state that is becoming more liberal as the population gets more urban.

    this. I feel like it probably wouldn't pass if it was voted on during the general election, but they managed to sneak it in for the (republican) primary.
    gay marriage is already illegal here, so I don't understand the "need" to cook it into the state constitution. just adding NC to the "really loved being bigoted hicks" list in the history books

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  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    Bagginses wrote: »
    chrisnl wrote: »
    That is one thing that always kind of bothered me about some religions. You can be the absolute worst person in the world for 99% of your life, but if you repent on your deathbed you get salvation / eternal life / entrance into heaven / ultimate religious reward. I mean I guess they're basing it off of God knowing whether your repentance is true or not, and if it is true then you're good to go, but if you lied you still don't get rewarded? I dunno, it's one of many things that doesn't make a ton of sense about religion to me.

    That's a pretty big issue in secular law. What do you do after rehabilitation?

    Well in current society it depends if you committed a white collar crime or a blue collar crime. Lots of white collar criminals are able to re-enter society and not be completely screwed over (Martha Stewart as an example), but if you aren't lucky enough to already be rich before committing a non-violent crime you're probably screwed for life. This is something we need to address, because it's a damn shame that so many people are judged for life if they have spent any time in our supposed correctional facilities.

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Incidentally, the Lutheran church I grew up in is an awesome place full of awesome people, most of whom don't give two shits on way or the other about someone's sexuality. They mostly just care that you show up on Sunday and remember to flush.

    I kinda wish I was joking about that second part.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    The Lutheran church my family attended when I was growing up left the... coalition? synod? whatever the term for related/connected groups of churches across a swath of a nation were because the congregation had a vote and decided they'd rather leave than take the more accepting and loving view of homosexuals that the organization was going to adopt.

    I found out about this second-hand after the fact, but I verified it with a quick google search. I guess I'd feel guilty about it, if I'd ever have attended church there by choice.

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    The Lutheran church I grew up in was pretty good, although apparently when we got a female pastor she got some shit over it. I'm not sure why, because she was awesome.

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  • SquigieSquigie Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    chrisnl wrote: »
    That is one thing that always kind of bothered me about some religions. You can be the absolute worst person in the world for 99% of your life, but if you repent on your deathbed you get salvation / eternal life / entrance into heaven / ultimate religious reward. I mean I guess they're basing it off of God knowing whether your repentance is true or not, and if it is true then you're good to go, but if you lied you still don't get rewarded? I dunno, it's one of many things that doesn't make a ton of sense about religion to me.

    I think your challenge understanding that comes from trying to apply your own sense of justice to God's judgment. If you ask a preacher whether an evil person who repents on his deathbed will go to heaven, both Yes and No are wrong answers for him to give you. The correct answer is "That's a question only God can answer." Hopefully some discussion about the nature of repentance (vs, say, apology or remorse) would ensue.

    Meaningless blather.

    Absolution is not a very difficult concept. What you've done cannot be undone. Any restitution can only mitigate the damage. Even if you traveled back in time to erase the incident it still happened in the original timeline. If you're done one million evil deeds and two million good deed you are not a million ahead.

    There is no balance sheet, no canceling out the bad with the good, but you can be forgiven. What you've done and who you were is not as important as who you are now and what you do from now on. If you truly repent God will forgive you. And you can't trick God, because Ze is omniscient.

    Take out the God parts and it's not even a strictly religious concept. Heck, it was stated rather clearly in an early episode of Angel. I don't want to drag the thread off topic but this "impossible to understand" crud just sticks in my craw. It is not impossible to understand, you are just bad at understanding.

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Squigie wrote: »
    Absolution is not a very difficult concept. What you've done cannot be undone. Any restitution can only mitigate the damage. Even if you traveled back in time to erase the incident it still happened in the original timeline.

    Wait. I'm in trouble for stuff I did in other timelines now? Dammit. I can't remember that stuff, if I could it would be a paradox!

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  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    Question time!

    So ever since New York passed Gay Marriage a little bit back, i'm just curious if that's the same process all of America will have to go through (state-by-state) in order to get this thing cemented into basic human rights. Will there be a one-all, be-all bill passed in the Supreme Court that'll be brought up in (hopefully) 4-ish years, or do we have to patiently sit it out for the elder generations to, well, die out before the newer mindset advances society?

    0WBv0.png
  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    The LGBT (or however that goes) movement has suffered from other problems surfacing that are 'more important', at least, to most of the US population. Unemployment, the economy in general, the fact that the president has the audacity to not be white (sadly enough) are taking the forefront right now. It's good that DADT was repealed and DOMA is getting that way, but for now it's hard to press for said rights when most people don't care quite so much.

    My hope is the GOP crazies itself out of existence and the Democrats become the new 'Right' and we have a full-on progressive part for the 'Left'. If/when that happens, it'll be much easier to pass gay friendly legislation. That being said, I don't think people shouldn't keep up the fight, just don't expect sweeping changes anytime soon.

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Godfather wrote: »
    Question time!

    So ever since New York passed Gay Marriage a little bit back, i'm just curious if that's the same process all of America will have to go through (state-by-state) in order to get this thing cemented into basic human rights. Will there be a one-all, be-all bill passed in the Supreme Court that'll be brought up in (hopefully) 4-ish years, or do we have to patiently sit it out for the elder generations to, well, die out before the newer mindset advances society?

    Probably a little bit of both. We need a successful removal of DOMA on the Federal level, but the state-to-state fights will always be there. The opposition is going to fight this tooth and claw at every turn, and will do everything in their power to delay it. We'll be fighting this for a while yet, even after we win.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Godfather wrote: »
    Question time!

    So ever since New York passed Gay Marriage a little bit back, i'm just curious if that's the same process all of America will have to go through (state-by-state) in order to get this thing cemented into basic human rights. Will there be a one-all, be-all bill passed in the Supreme Court that'll be brought up in (hopefully) 4-ish years, or do we have to patiently sit it out for the elder generations to, well, die out before the newer mindset advances society?

    Well, if everything goes swimmingly (doubtful), the Supreme Court will strike down California's Prop 8 amendment. The other snag is DOMA, which is also getting beaten around in the lower courts but getting it past SCOTUS is more questionable. Striking down DOMA means that other states would probably have to recognize gay couples married in states where it's legal, and gets rid of a lot of the discrimination on the federal level. Striking down Prop 8 could have serious ramifications for all the other states that enacted anti-gay-marriage amendments/laws.

    Those are the big broad-brush things that could happen, and they're some of the hardest, though not as hard as getting the bigot states to allow it at the state level. Political opinion at the national level is swinging slightly in favor of gay rights recently, but the bigot states will try to entrench themselves as much as they can.

  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    The current Supreme Court make-up is not friendly for homosexuals, sadly. Though maybe, just maybe, they'll get their heads out of their asses for you fellows (and ladies) but.. I'm not holding my breath. If one or two of them retired and were replaced with more progressive judges, though, then it is game on.

  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    Yeah that's what i've seen/heard in the news; the officials questioned like dropping the economy bombshell as the perfect "get-out-of-jail-free" card to sidestep the whole gay rights issue. They could be riding this thing out for years until something positive eventually happens with the economy.

    I looked at how Canada passed gay-rights marriage, and it seems that 8 out of 10 provinces and one territory already had it legalized before the government decided to do a full-swipe passing of the bill back in 2005. If that's the kind of bias it would take before the United States Supreme Court decides to sack up and tackle this issue head-on, then we could actually be looking at waiting it out another 20 to 30 years before we get the state majority needed to light the judicial furnace.

    I say 30 because that would be the bare minimum needed to convert a good chunk of the Southern states into a similar mindset.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    The current Supreme Court make-up is not friendly for homosexuals, sadly. Though maybe, just maybe, they'll get their heads out of their asses for you fellows (and ladies) but.. I'm not holding my breath. If one or two of them retired and were replaced with more progressive judges, though, then it is game on.

    Sadly the current makeup is about as good as we can expect in the near future. At least Kennedy (the swing vote) wrote Lawrence, so we know he's not completely opposed, and there are some questions as to Roberts. Unfortunately the oldest Justice (and thus most likely to retire) is Ginsberg (liberal), with Kennedy behind her; the best we can hope for is to replace a liberal with another liberal. Conservatives Alito and Roberts are young, and Scalia and Thomas will be sitting on the bench until the apocalypse.

This discussion has been closed.