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This thread is so bubbly and cloy and happy, just like [Star Trek]

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Probably
    Wait. They let Harry Kim direct an episode?!
    Was it Threshold?

    It's fairly common for actors playing lead characters to occasionally direct episodes on the tv show's they're on. Tom Welling did it for Smallville, Jonathan Frakes did it for all the Trek tv series starting with Next Generation (and Insurrection), Edward James Osmos did it for the new Battlestar Galactica etc.

    Also remember that they should in theory have a team of competent writers, staff and other directors, who they have been working with already for a long time, to help them bring their vision to life.

    I doubt that happened in Voyager production though...

    Star Trek was basically a TV Directors school in its later years. The number of cast members that directed episodes was massive. I think they set up a system to help first time directors.

    Jonathan Frakes has had the biggest success, but Rober Duncan McNeil(Tom Paris) was a executive producer/director on Chuck.

    The fact that Harry Kim wasn't allowed to direct an episode is strange, considering they let anybody else give it a shot.

    From what I remember he was kind of a douche and he bad mouthed the show a couple times.

    An argument could be made he just said the emperor had no clothes. :P

    That argument would be 100% correct, too :D

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Sometimes I like to imagine how the other shows would have handled "The Thaw" instead of Voyager. Assuming each respective captain gets to say "I knooooow", I've come up with:

    TOS
    Hostage: Chekhov
    Negotiator: Spock (Vulcans aren't compatible with the mind scanner because [plot])

    TNG
    Hostage: Geordi or Troi
    Negotiator: Data (Natch)

    DS9
    Hostage: O'Brien
    Negotiator: Garak (Cardiassian Mental Conditioning, gotta love it)

    ENT
    I'm not sure if the script would work with these guys, since I don't think they'd have the tech to do the switcheroo at the end. Shran being the negotiator would be fun.

    I think of all these, seeing Garak spar with the Clown would be the most enticing.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    The Thaw is one of my favorite Voyager episodes though. Easily one of their best.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    As great as it is, the fact I can hypothesize the script in the other shows suggests it doesn't truly utilize Voyager's assets, which is a shame. That said, Picardo and Mulgrew acted a blinder in it.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Man, Voyager with a competent producing team would've been fantastic.

    All the actors were great, the production values were usually top notch (for 90s sci-fi), but damn if the showrunners didn't drop the ball.

    Imagine Voyager with Enterprise Season 4's staff.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    My favourite "what if" for Voyager is that the crew, Starfleet and Maquis, are all damaged goods. They may have the potential to go toe to toe with the crew of the Enterprise, but past incidents have damaged their perception, both in their colleagues and themselves, and it took a trans-galactic voyage to rise to the challenge.

  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    Voyager had some great writers but Rick Berman squandered their talents.

  • valhalla130valhalla130 Od's blood Sailing a longshipRegistered User regular
    I've been watching DS9 on Netflix. I may have mentioned that earlier. I never really got into it before. I had actually watched it during the first couple of seasons, but then stopped for some strange reason. Anyway, I'm in the middle of season 5 now, i haven't been watching every episode, just trying to catch the big ones that led up to the war with the Jem'Hadar. Apparently, I've skipped too many, because now Kira is pregnant, and Miles and she keep almost kissing. WTF?

    It's still better than I remembered it. I said earlier I'd also been skipping the holodeck episodes, but I did catch A Fistfull of Datas, the moriarty episodes and Our Man Bashir. Those were all excellent episodes. But how could the license holders of James Bond threaten to sue them for that? They could have easily been parodying the Flint movies, or Matt Helm.

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I don't think you can copyright the idea of "British Secret Agent suavely investigates Diabolical Mastermind at a Casino".

  • valhalla130valhalla130 Od's blood Sailing a longshipRegistered User regular
    I mean, except for "Dr. Noah."

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    -- double post...

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Sometimes I like to imagine how the other shows would have handled "The Thaw" instead of Voyager. Assuming each respective captain gets to say "I knooooow", I've come up with:

    TOS
    Hostage: Chekhov
    Negotiator: Spock (Vulcans aren't compatible with the mind scanner because [plot])

    TNG
    Hostage: Geordi or Troi
    Negotiator: Data (Natch)

    DS9
    Hostage: O'Brien
    Negotiator: Garak (Cardiassian Mental Conditioning, gotta love it)

    ENT
    I'm not sure if the script would work with these guys, since I don't think they'd have the tech to do the switcheroo at the end. Shran being the negotiator would be fun.

    I think of all these, seeing Garak spar with the Clown would be the most enticing.

    Man, Garak would have talked that clown in to committing suicide in less then five minutes.
    Voyager had some great writers but Rick Berman squandered their talents.

    I think the actors were OK, but the presence of Robert Picardo elevates the quality of acting around him.

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  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    Not at all. Garak would have sympathised with the Clown and it's need to survive then threatened to talk the hostages into committing suicide and then offered the clown an executive position in his own mind to guard against telepaths.

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  • CogliostroCogliostro Marginal Opinions Spring, TXRegistered User regular
    Wait. They let Harry Kim direct an episode?!
    Was it Threshold?

    no, they didn't.... specifically because he said something derogatory about Berman and Braga and how they craptastically ran the show.

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    It's probably also why Harry stayed an ensign until he was beyond Janeway's grasp.

  • CogliostroCogliostro Marginal Opinions Spring, TXRegistered User regular
    Cogliostro wrote: »
    I was happy to see Bashir's character mature throughout the show. If he had stayed that immature little poon-hound throughout the entire show I think I would have hunted down the writers and murdered the one who created him... as a lesson to the others.

    Siddig did that deliberately. He didn't want the audience to like Bashir in the beginning.

    I liked that, like when he called bajor "the middle of nowhere" or whatever to Kira's face

    haha yeah his whole "frontier medicine" thing. lol

    "Well maybe you can help by bringing some of your federation medicine to the natives. Oh, you'll find them a friendly, simple folk"

    haha.

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    It's probably also why Harry stayed an ensign until he was beyond Janeway's grasp.

    One of my favourite SFDebris jokes is when Tom Paris gets promoted again.

    Kim: "I don't see new pips on my chair..."
    Janeway: "You have a chair?!"

    Seriously though, the fact the Starfleet reject turned terrorist and convicted criminal who was demoted for disobeying a direct order was promoted before the perfect officer with a clean record is ridiculous.

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  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    No it really isn't; Paris is competent, imaginative, personable and a natural leader. Also, Harry's promotion track gets reset every time he gets his ass killed, Starfleet Resurrection Directive 3a, paragraph twelve.

    Mr_Rose on
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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    It's probably also why Harry stayed an ensign until he was beyond Janeway's grasp.

    One of my favourite SFDebris jokes is when Tom Paris gets promoted again.

    Kim: "I don't see new pips on my chair..."
    Janeway: "You have a chair?!"

    Seriously though, the fact the Starfleet reject turned terrorist and convicted criminal who was demoted for disobeying a direct order was promoted before the perfect officer with a clean record is ridiculous.

    Ah, but he didn't have a clean record; he had a horrible reprimand for having the nerve to have sex with an alien!

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Some things are reserved for the Captain and first officer after all.

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  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Harry Kim loses points because he's Harry Kim. I fully believe that for every onscreen fuck up there were four off screen ones. If I ever wrote a Voyager tie in novel, every other chapter would be Harry Kim almost destroying the ship because that's how I see their existence going.

    It's not like Travis or Hoshi spending ten years as Ensigns. Basically, Harry Kim's a tool and I wouldn't want to promote him over more people than absolutely necessary.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Why is Harry Kim a tool? I don't remember him being that bad. I barely remember him at all, he was that bland and inoffensive.

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  • RohanRohan Registered User regular
    I don't remember him being bad. I remember him being as you say, bland and inoffensive. But so bland as to be offensive. Anything else I can't remember because he was so un-memorable.

    ...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.

    Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
  • CasualCasual flap flap flap wiggle wiggle wiggle Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    It's probably also why Harry stayed an ensign until he was beyond Janeway's grasp.

    One of my favourite SFDebris jokes is when Tom Paris gets promoted again.

    Kim: "I don't see new pips on my chair..."
    Janeway: "You have a chair?!"

    Seriously though, the fact the Starfleet reject turned terrorist and convicted criminal who was demoted for disobeying a direct order was promoted before the perfect officer with a clean record is ridiculous.

    I always thought that too. I think at that point, promoting Paris was an intentional slap in the face to Kim by Janeway.

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  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    No, seriously, what does Kim do apart from fall into the trap/anomaly every other week only to get saved, mostly, by Tom Paris?

    OTOH, I wouldn't put it past B&B to have Paris' promotion be a slap in the face to Garret Wang rather than ensign Kim….

    ...because dragons are AWESOME! That's why.
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  • RenaissanceDanRenaissanceDan Registered User
    Whenever they show people eating/drinking on the holodeck, is that the holodeck replicating stuff? Do they bring in replicated stuff for their bar scenes/beach parties? Because it would seem that if you put something in your mouth/stomach, there's no way for the projectors to continue maintaining it at that point if it's a hologram. So you're basically pantomiming drinking, and as soon as you close your mouth, there's nothing there.

  • emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.

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  • RenaissanceDanRenaissanceDan Registered User
    emp123 wrote: »
    I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.

    Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.

    The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    emp123 wrote: »
    I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.

    Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.

    The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.

    It would have been similar to Battlestar Galactica, only not as cynical or gritty. It's still Trek, after all.

    Harry Dresden on
  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    emp123 wrote: »
    I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.

    Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.

    The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.

    It would have been similar to Battlestar Galactica, only not as cynical or gritty. It's still Trek, after all.

    It could have shown how the futuristic humanist man would have handled the situation and shown how he had evolved beyond how we would handle the situation today.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    emp123 wrote: »
    I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.

    Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.

    The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.

    It would have been similar to Battlestar Galactica, only not as cynical or gritty. It's still Trek, after all.

    It could have shown how the futuristic humanist man would have handled the situation and shown how he had evolved beyond how we would handle the situation today.

    Yep.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Why is Harry Kim a tool? I don't remember him being that bad. I barely remember him at all, he was that bland and inoffensive.

    Maybe tool is too strong a word, but he was always getting into trouble and acting like an idiot. Were there ever episodes where Kim saved the day? I think there were like, two?

    Also, at one point Kim dies and the Kim we have for the rest of the series is a fake Kim, so maybe he was ineligible for promotion.

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  • AurichAurich Registered User regular
    I don't actually remember him doing anything stupid, or ever being bad at his job. He certainly blew it when he took command of that "medical transport" but that just makes him not a leader.

  • valhalla130valhalla130 Od's blood Sailing a longshipRegistered User regular
    Yeah, that's kinda the problem. in any organization that uses rank, the more rank you have, the more leadership ability you are supposed to have, and the more people you are put in charge of. Why would he promoted if he had no leadership ability?

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    emp123 wrote: »
    I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.

    Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.

    The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.

    It would have been similar to Battlestar Galactica, only not as cynical or gritty. It's still Trek, after all.

    It could have shown how the futuristic humanist man would have handled the situation and shown how he had evolved beyond how we would handle the situation today.

    Is it wrong that in this hypothetical "good" Voyager I can see Janeway giving herself a brevet promotion to Admiral as they pick up alien stragglers and outcasts and ships for safety, company, resources, and tech on their way to the Alpha Quadrant, and making it awesome/stick?

    Shadowen on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    "You can't be an admiral! You were just a mediocre captain of a research vessel a few years ago. No board has sat and approved a promotion!"
    "And yet, here I am with, with petaquads of information on a part of the galaxy hitherto unexplored by the Federation, also sorts of fancy new tech, a fleet of ships comparable to that of some of our allies, and oh, look at all these Borg cubes with X's through them painted on my nacelles."

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  • AurichAurich Registered User regular
    Also, Harry came up with the idea to beam a proton torpedo onto a borg vessel, basically giving him the first real confirmed borg cube kill.

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Technically it was a borg almond kill.

  • CasualCasual flap flap flap wiggle wiggle wiggle Registered User regular
    Aurich wrote: »
    I don't actually remember him doing anything stupid, or ever being bad at his job. He certainly blew it when he took command of that "medical transport" but that just makes him not a leader.

    Well that's because he was given the role of a captain which he clearly wasn't ready for at that point in his career. That's why they have all those ranks inbetween ensign and captain. It's hard to use that as an excuse to write him off as an effective officer forever when we know at some point he gets his shit together and becomes captain of the Rhode Island.

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  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    Aurich wrote: »
    Also, Harry came up with the idea to beam a proton torpedo onto a borg vessel, basically giving him the first real confirmed borg cube kill.

    Ironically this involved setting a time delay on the detonation circuit, effectively turning the device into exactly what they should have used on the Array…I imagine that if Kim ever made the connection that his idea could have had him home in a week, if only he'd had it five years earlier, his head would explode.

    ...because dragons are AWESOME! That's why.
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