Wait. They let Harry Kim direct an episode?!
Was it Threshold?
It's fairly common for actors playing lead characters to occasionally direct episodes on the tv show's they're on. Tom Welling did it for Smallville, Jonathan Frakes did it for all the Trek tv series starting with Next Generation (and Insurrection), Edward James Osmos did it for the new Battlestar Galactica etc.
Also remember that they should in theory have a team of competent writers, staff and other directors, who they have been working with already for a long time, to help them bring their vision to life.
I doubt that happened in Voyager production though...
Star Trek was basically a TV Directors school in its later years. The number of cast members that directed episodes was massive. I think they set up a system to help first time directors.
Jonathan Frakes has had the biggest success, but Rober Duncan McNeil(Tom Paris) was a executive producer/director on Chuck.
The fact that Harry Kim wasn't allowed to direct an episode is strange, considering they let anybody else give it a shot.
From what I remember he was kind of a douche and he bad mouthed the show a couple times.
An argument could be made he just said the emperor had no clothes. :P
Sometimes I like to imagine how the other shows would have handled "The Thaw" instead of Voyager. Assuming each respective captain gets to say "I knooooow", I've come up with:
TOS
Hostage: Chekhov
Negotiator: Spock (Vulcans aren't compatible with the mind scanner because [plot])
TNG
Hostage: Geordi or Troi
Negotiator: Data (Natch)
ENT
I'm not sure if the script would work with these guys, since I don't think they'd have the tech to do the switcheroo at the end. Shran being the negotiator would be fun.
I think of all these, seeing Garak spar with the Clown would be the most enticing.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
The Thaw is one of my favorite Voyager episodes though. Easily one of their best.
As great as it is, the fact I can hypothesize the script in the other shows suggests it doesn't truly utilize Voyager's assets, which is a shame. That said, Picardo and Mulgrew acted a blinder in it.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Man, Voyager with a competent producing team would've been fantastic.
All the actors were great, the production values were usually top notch (for 90s sci-fi), but damn if the showrunners didn't drop the ball.
My favourite "what if" for Voyager is that the crew, Starfleet and Maquis, are all damaged goods. They may have the potential to go toe to toe with the crew of the Enterprise, but past incidents have damaged their perception, both in their colleagues and themselves, and it took a trans-galactic voyage to rise to the challenge.
Voyager had some great writers but Rick Berman squandered their talents.
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
I've been watching DS9 on Netflix. I may have mentioned that earlier. I never really got into it before. I had actually watched it during the first couple of seasons, but then stopped for some strange reason. Anyway, I'm in the middle of season 5 now, i haven't been watching every episode, just trying to catch the big ones that led up to the war with the Jem'Hadar. Apparently, I've skipped too many, because now Kira is pregnant, and Miles and she keep almost kissing. WTF?
It's still better than I remembered it. I said earlier I'd also been skipping the holodeck episodes, but I did catch A Fistfull of Datas, the moriarty episodes and Our Man Bashir. Those were all excellent episodes. But how could the license holders of James Bond threaten to sue them for that? They could have easily been parodying the Flint movies, or Matt Helm.
Sometimes I like to imagine how the other shows would have handled "The Thaw" instead of Voyager. Assuming each respective captain gets to say "I knooooow", I've come up with:
TOS
Hostage: Chekhov
Negotiator: Spock (Vulcans aren't compatible with the mind scanner because [plot])
TNG
Hostage: Geordi or Troi
Negotiator: Data (Natch)
ENT
I'm not sure if the script would work with these guys, since I don't think they'd have the tech to do the switcheroo at the end. Shran being the negotiator would be fun.
I think of all these, seeing Garak spar with the Clown would be the most enticing.
Man, Garak would have talked that clown in to committing suicide in less then five minutes.
Voyager had some great writers but Rick Berman squandered their talents.
I think the actors were OK, but the presence of Robert Picardo elevates the quality of acting around him.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Not at all. Garak would have sympathised with the Clown and it's need to survive then threatened to talk the hostages into committing suicide and then offered the clown an executive position in his own mind to guard against telepaths.
I was happy to see Bashir's character mature throughout the show. If he had stayed that immature little poon-hound throughout the entire show I think I would have hunted down the writers and murdered the one who created him... as a lesson to the others.
Siddig did that deliberately. He didn't want the audience to like Bashir in the beginning.
I liked that, like when he called bajor "the middle of nowhere" or whatever to Kira's face
haha yeah his whole "frontier medicine" thing. lol
"Well maybe you can help by bringing some of your federation medicine to the natives. Oh, you'll find them a friendly, simple folk"
It's probably also why Harry stayed an ensign until he was beyond Janeway's grasp.
One of my favourite SFDebris jokes is when Tom Paris gets promoted again.
Kim: "I don't see new pips on my chair..."
Janeway: "You have a chair?!"
Seriously though, the fact the Starfleet reject turned terrorist and convicted criminal who was demoted for disobeying a direct order was promoted before the perfect officer with a clean record is ridiculous.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
No it really isn't; Paris is competent, imaginative, personable and a natural leader. Also, Harry's promotion track gets reset every time he gets his ass killed, Starfleet Resurrection Directive 3a, paragraph twelve.
It's probably also why Harry stayed an ensign until he was beyond Janeway's grasp.
One of my favourite SFDebris jokes is when Tom Paris gets promoted again.
Kim: "I don't see new pips on my chair..."
Janeway: "You have a chair?!"
Seriously though, the fact the Starfleet reject turned terrorist and convicted criminal who was demoted for disobeying a direct order was promoted before the perfect officer with a clean record is ridiculous.
Ah, but he didn't have a clean record; he had a horrible reprimand for having the nerve to have sex with an alien!
Some things are reserved for the Captain and first officer after all.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Harry Kim loses points because he's Harry Kim. I fully believe that for every onscreen fuck up there were four off screen ones. If I ever wrote a Voyager tie in novel, every other chapter would be Harry Kim almost destroying the ship because that's how I see their existence going.
It's not like Travis or Hoshi spending ten years as Ensigns. Basically, Harry Kim's a tool and I wouldn't want to promote him over more people than absolutely necessary.
I don't remember him being bad. I remember him being as you say, bland and inoffensive. But so bland as to be offensive. Anything else I can't remember because he was so un-memorable.
...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.
It's probably also why Harry stayed an ensign until he was beyond Janeway's grasp.
One of my favourite SFDebris jokes is when Tom Paris gets promoted again.
Kim: "I don't see new pips on my chair..."
Janeway: "You have a chair?!"
Seriously though, the fact the Starfleet reject turned terrorist and convicted criminal who was demoted for disobeying a direct order was promoted before the perfect officer with a clean record is ridiculous.
I always thought that too. I think at that point, promoting Paris was an intentional slap in the face to Kim by Janeway.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
No, seriously, what does Kim do apart from fall into the trap/anomaly every other week only to get saved, mostly, by Tom Paris?
OTOH, I wouldn't put it past B&B to have Paris' promotion be a slap in the face to Garret Wang rather than ensign Kim….
Whenever they show people eating/drinking on the holodeck, is that the holodeck replicating stuff? Do they bring in replicated stuff for their bar scenes/beach parties? Because it would seem that if you put something in your mouth/stomach, there's no way for the projectors to continue maintaining it at that point if it's a hologram. So you're basically pantomiming drinking, and as soon as you close your mouth, there's nothing there.
I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.
I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.
Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.
The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.
I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.
Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.
The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.
It would have been similar to Battlestar Galactica, only not as cynical or gritty. It's still Trek, after all.
Harry Dresden on
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L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.
Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.
The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.
It would have been similar to Battlestar Galactica, only not as cynical or gritty. It's still Trek, after all.
It could have shown how the futuristic humanist man would have handled the situation and shown how he had evolved beyond how we would handle the situation today.
I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.
Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.
The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.
It would have been similar to Battlestar Galactica, only not as cynical or gritty. It's still Trek, after all.
It could have shown how the futuristic humanist man would have handled the situation and shown how he had evolved beyond how we would handle the situation today.
Yep.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Why is Harry Kim a tool? I don't remember him being that bad. I barely remember him at all, he was that bland and inoffensive.
Maybe tool is too strong a word, but he was always getting into trouble and acting like an idiot. Were there ever episodes where Kim saved the day? I think there were like, two?
Also, at one point Kim dies and the Kim we have for the rest of the series is a fake Kim, so maybe he was ineligible for promotion.
I don't actually remember him doing anything stupid, or ever being bad at his job. He certainly blew it when he took command of that "medical transport" but that just makes him not a leader.
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
Yeah, that's kinda the problem. in any organization that uses rank, the more rank you have, the more leadership ability you are supposed to have, and the more people you are put in charge of. Why would he promoted if he had no leadership ability?
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
I think its replicated stuff, so youre actually eating/drinking on the holodeck. Which uses a different power system from the rest of the ship, which means Voyager should have just used the holodecks as replicators and not worried about food. God damn it.
Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.
The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.
It would have been similar to Battlestar Galactica, only not as cynical or gritty. It's still Trek, after all.
It could have shown how the futuristic humanist man would have handled the situation and shown how he had evolved beyond how we would handle the situation today.
Is it wrong that in this hypothetical "good" Voyager I can see Janeway giving herself a brevet promotion to Admiral as they pick up alien stragglers and outcasts and ships for safety, company, resources, and tech on their way to the Alpha Quadrant, and making it awesome/stick?
"You can't be an admiral! You were just a mediocre captain of a research vessel a few years ago. No board has sat and approved a promotion!"
"And yet, here I am with, with petaquads of information on a part of the galaxy hitherto unexplored by the Federation, also sorts of fancy new tech, a fleet of ships comparable to that of some of our allies, and oh, look at all these Borg cubes with X's through them painted on my nacelles."
I don't actually remember him doing anything stupid, or ever being bad at his job. He certainly blew it when he took command of that "medical transport" but that just makes him not a leader.
Well that's because he was given the role of a captain which he clearly wasn't ready for at that point in his career. That's why they have all those ranks inbetween ensign and captain. It's hard to use that as an excuse to write him off as an effective officer forever when we know at some point he gets his shit together and becomes captain of the Rhode Island.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Also, Harry came up with the idea to beam a proton torpedo onto a borg vessel, basically giving him the first real confirmed borg cube kill.
Ironically this involved setting a time delay on the detonation circuit, effectively turning the device into exactly what they should have used on the Array…I imagine that if Kim ever made the connection that his idea could have had him home in a week, if only he'd had it five years earlier, his head would explode.
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That argument would be 100% correct, too
TOS
Hostage: Chekhov
Negotiator: Spock (Vulcans aren't compatible with the mind scanner because [plot])
TNG
Hostage: Geordi or Troi
Negotiator: Data (Natch)
DS9
Hostage: O'Brien
Negotiator: Garak (Cardiassian Mental Conditioning, gotta love it)
ENT
I'm not sure if the script would work with these guys, since I don't think they'd have the tech to do the switcheroo at the end. Shran being the negotiator would be fun.
I think of all these, seeing Garak spar with the Clown would be the most enticing.
All the actors were great, the production values were usually top notch (for 90s sci-fi), but damn if the showrunners didn't drop the ball.
Imagine Voyager with Enterprise Season 4's staff.
It's still better than I remembered it. I said earlier I'd also been skipping the holodeck episodes, but I did catch A Fistfull of Datas, the moriarty episodes and Our Man Bashir. Those were all excellent episodes. But how could the license holders of James Bond threaten to sue them for that? They could have easily been parodying the Flint movies, or Matt Helm.
I think the actors were OK, but the presence of Robert Picardo elevates the quality of acting around him.
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no, they didn't.... specifically because he said something derogatory about Berman and Braga and how they craptastically ran the show.
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haha yeah his whole "frontier medicine" thing. lol
"Well maybe you can help by bringing some of your federation medicine to the natives. Oh, you'll find them a friendly, simple folk"
haha.
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One of my favourite SFDebris jokes is when Tom Paris gets promoted again.
Kim: "I don't see new pips on my chair..."
Janeway: "You have a chair?!"
Seriously though, the fact the Starfleet reject turned terrorist and convicted criminal who was demoted for disobeying a direct order was promoted before the perfect officer with a clean record is ridiculous.
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Ah, but he didn't have a clean record; he had a horrible reprimand for having the nerve to have sex with an alien!
It's not like Travis or Hoshi spending ten years as Ensigns. Basically, Harry Kim's a tool and I wouldn't want to promote him over more people than absolutely necessary.
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
I always thought that too. I think at that point, promoting Paris was an intentional slap in the face to Kim by Janeway.
OTOH, I wouldn't put it past B&B to have Paris' promotion be a slap in the face to Garret Wang rather than ensign Kim….
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Yeah, you got right to the next point I was planning on making. That, and the fact that the "limited supplies" thing only came up when the plot required it, and was otherwise completely ignored. Like several other potentially compelling plot components that only required a little CONSISTENCY. Food supply. Maquis/Starfleet interaction. Homesickness. Cabin fever. Keeping the ship running.
The entire series could have been about all of those things. And it would have been great. Well, it kind of would have been Battlestar Galactica. But I'm pretty sure I could do with another of those anyway.
It would have been similar to Battlestar Galactica, only not as cynical or gritty. It's still Trek, after all.
It could have shown how the futuristic humanist man would have handled the situation and shown how he had evolved beyond how we would handle the situation today.
Yep.
Maybe tool is too strong a word, but he was always getting into trouble and acting like an idiot. Were there ever episodes where Kim saved the day? I think there were like, two?
Also, at one point Kim dies and the Kim we have for the rest of the series is a fake Kim, so maybe he was ineligible for promotion.
Is it wrong that in this hypothetical "good" Voyager I can see Janeway giving herself a brevet promotion to Admiral as they pick up alien stragglers and outcasts and ships for safety, company, resources, and tech on their way to the Alpha Quadrant, and making it awesome/stick?
"And yet, here I am with, with petaquads of information on a part of the galaxy hitherto unexplored by the Federation, also sorts of fancy new tech, a fleet of ships comparable to that of some of our allies, and oh, look at all these Borg cubes with X's through them painted on my nacelles."
Well that's because he was given the role of a captain which he clearly wasn't ready for at that point in his career. That's why they have all those ranks inbetween ensign and captain. It's hard to use that as an excuse to write him off as an effective officer forever when we know at some point he gets his shit together and becomes captain of the Rhode Island.
Ironically this involved setting a time delay on the detonation circuit, effectively turning the device into exactly what they should have used on the Array…I imagine that if Kim ever made the connection that his idea could have had him home in a week, if only he'd had it five years earlier, his head would explode.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.