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[A Song of Ice and Fire, Books and Books+Show] Touch this thread and all shall be spoilt

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Posts

  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    This is incredibly frustrating. The westeros.org forums are full of book-readers who have a massive hate-on for Littlefinger; they feel the show is destroying his character. I'm watching episode four and his three scenes in Renly's camp (to me, anyway) show three vastly different characters, which makes me think the show-runners are doing an incredibly good job handling just how involved he is with the machinations of the game. It seems insanely ironic that the community is effectively falling for Littlefinger's act.

    When he's talking to Renly, he simply says that, hey, I'll give you KL if you let me keep my head... and my position, if possible. Then, with Margarey, he's a little more involved - verbally sparring with her; sounding her out, seeing how smart she is. With Cat, he's passionate as soon as he walks through the door, then backs off to plant the seed and give back the bones.

    Am I reading the scenes incorrectly? Has his character been shown consistently, and I'm just crazy?

    Tamin on
  • Donkey KongDonkey Kong Warning: Donkey Kong is not a real doctor Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    No, you're right. I think his character is being played perfectly. He gets a little less screen time than we read about him in the books so his plans are a little disjointed by comparison, but it's obvious that he's being incredibly manipulative to both self-serving and somewhat mysterious (at this point) ends.

    Donkey Kong on
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  • MalReynoldsMalReynolds The Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicines Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Hm. Forum wackiness.

    MalReynolds on
    "A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
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  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    That makes me feel quite a bit better. I thought I was losing my mind.

    Tamin on
  • So It GoesSo It Goes Well, that seems pretty ludicrous.Registered User regular


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:

    NOPE.
    Vd0n7Bk.jpg
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:

    Yes. Maybe what's happening is
    Spoiler:

    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:

    Automata-Sg.png
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Shadowen wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:

    Yes. Maybe what's happening is
    Spoiler:

    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:

    That second spoiler is actually from the book.
    Spoiler:

    Tamin on
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    Tamin wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:

    Yes. Maybe what's happening is
    Spoiler:

    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:

    That second spoiler is actually from the book.
    Spoiler:

    Strange. I had not thought that
    Spoiler:

  • So It GoesSo It Goes Well, that seems pretty ludicrous.Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:

    Yes. Maybe what's happening is
    Spoiler:

    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:

    That second spoiler is actually from the book.
    Spoiler:

    Strange. I had not thought that
    Spoiler:

    maybe that's what he's saying

    NOPE.
    Vd0n7Bk.jpg
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:
    That's in the book, paraphrased, but nonetheless.

    Automata-Sg.png
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:

    Yes. Maybe what's happening is
    Spoiler:

    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:

    That second spoiler is actually from the book.
    Spoiler:

    Strange. I had not thought that
    Spoiler:

    Actually, right after I posted that, it occurred to me that
    Spoiler:

    Tamin on
  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:

    Yes. Maybe what's happening is
    Spoiler:

    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:

    That second spoiler is actually from the book.
    Spoiler:

    Strange. I had not thought that
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:

    I don't have confirmation on this or anything, but it makes a certain degree of sense.

    Tarantio on
    "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:

    Yes. Maybe what's happening is
    Spoiler:

    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:

    That second spoiler is actually from the book.
    Spoiler:

    Strange. I had not thought that
    Spoiler:

    The official line from the Faceless is that
    Spoiler:

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
    Automata-Sg.png
  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »


    promo for next ep

    at :25
    Spoiler:

    Yes. Maybe what's happening is
    Spoiler:

    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:

    That second spoiler is actually from the book.
    Spoiler:

    Strange. I had not thought that
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:

    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
  • UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Yes. Maybe what's happening is
    Spoiler:

    Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
    Spoiler:

    About Jaqen:
    Spoiler:

    As for Brienne:
    Spoiler:

    SteamID : same as my PA forum name
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    As for Brienne:
    Spoiler:

    I believe you're right, that's a shame.

    Automata-Sg.png
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    As for Brienne:
    Spoiler:

    I believe you're right, that's a shame.

    Maybe they'll just work that reaction into her conversations with Catelyn instead?

    Considering how expensive fight scenes are, there must be some pretty good reason for it

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Kana wrote: »
    As for Brienne:
    Spoiler:

    I believe you're right, that's a shame.

    Maybe they'll just work that reaction into her conversations with Catelyn instead?

    Considering how expensive fight scenes are, there must be some pretty good reason for it

    The reason could just be "We don't want to make the audience wait three years to see Brienne prove herself in mortal combat"

    Which seems like a not terrible reason, but the payoff, of following her for the three years before that scene takes place, would have been excellent.

    [e]
    Spoiler:

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
    Automata-Sg.png
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    I guess alternately they're just not planning on casting shagwell and co. this season, since there's enough characters already, and so there's less reasons to set up that scene for Brienne later.

    And they can still do that scene with a couple of evil random dudes. It's not as fun as shagwell, but probably a lot cheaper and easier.

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • UltimanecatUltimanecat Registered User regular
    It does sort of inform her character though - the books make a point to show that she's not a badass who happens to be a big ugly woman, but is an outcast who plays at swords (very, very well) because she's better at it than anything else. More importantly, she's better than the people who torment her, but she still hasn't been forced to kill anyone because many of the men around her, no matter their disdain for her, still want to protect her honor.

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  • juggerbotjuggerbot Registered User regular
    Anyone else feel underwhelmed by the replacement actor (I think this guy?) for Gregor? I only noticed him speaking a few lines to Tywin in the last episode, so it might be too little to make a judgment on.

    But I loved the actor from the first season. Even without lines, he could convey an "all of you can go fuck yourselves" attitude and really managed to embody the Mountain I knew from the books.

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    Yeah, they got a guy who was tall, but he's not the, well, man-mountain that Conan Stevens was. He seems like he'd be more suited for a Count Dooku villain.

  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    juggerbot wrote: »
    Anyone else feel underwhelmed by the replacement actor (I think this guy?) for Gregor? I only noticed him speaking a few lines to Tywin in the last episode, so it might be too little to make a judgment on.

    But I loved the actor from the first season. Even without lines, he could convey an "all of you can go fuck yourselves" attitude and really managed to embody the Mountain I knew from the books.

    Yeah, like I buy him as evil, but he looks middle-eastern and kind of unassuming, which is scary, but not the Mountain kind of scar. He kind of reminded me of count dooku, when he should remind me of like a giant wrestler. I mean I guess it shows how hard it is to be big and muscley at that height, Conan Stevens was a freak. Also the armour and chainmail made him look lanky, like it didnt give him any shoulders, also the hat, while fine on regular soldiers, looks downright Knights Who Say Ni on the new Mountain.

    I think they could make him work, but I have a feeling that by the time more Mountain scenes come, they may just hire Conan again if he's done with Hobbit filming. At least thats what im hoping, especially with later fight scenes, as Conana Stevens is a trained stunt fighter and whatnot

    Prohass on
  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    The new Mountain looks like a Monty Python character.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    It didn't help that he was next to Charles Dance, who's a pretty fair-sized guy himself.

    But yeah, hopefully old gregor comes back next season. That'd be swell

    History is an account, mostly false, of events, mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers, mostly knaves, and soldiers, mostly fools.
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    That's just not fair to the new guy. The old guy bailed by his own choice it seems, so more power to the new guy I say. The Mountain's such a minor character so far some people didn't even notice the switch.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    The next episode is gonna be boss.

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  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    To be fair this new guy IS tall and towers over everyone else, and his armor looked better than the "Ram Man" armor they had the Mountain in last season. We haven't even seen the guy without his armor on so I'm not worried. I never really felt the Mountain would be done right in the show since in the books he's literally over 8 foot tall without his armor. Even the guy last season seemed puny compared to the vision I had in my head.

  • SchadenfreudeSchadenfreude The DreadfortRegistered User regular
    Been a while since I read CoK, but are we expecting to see much more of the Mountain this season now that Tywin's back? In an ideal world we'll get Conan Stevens back by the time the Mountain has to face off against the Red Viper.

    Speaking of; I've been watching the Wire again and could really see Dominc West playing that part (Him or Mance Rayder strangely enough).

    Jaime Lannister sends his regards.
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    I need to ask because I want to know. Regarding the latest episode of the TV show.

    What is the thing that was given birth to? That came out of nowhere for me.

    Spoiler it if you must, I'm very curious!

    The responses you got all sucked. Here, in spoiler form, is what it is. It isn't that big of a deal. I'm describing it in detail, but I'm not going to actually spoil major events it relates to, not even in the spoiler.
    Spoiler:

    As for Hodor, with the proper design, it isn't that tough to carry a decent weight on your shoulders. I've known some rather small dads to carry some rather large sons (not teens, but still) in one of those shoulder-chair hiking deals.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Yar wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    I need to ask because I want to know. Regarding the latest episode of the TV show.

    What is the thing that was given birth to? That came out of nowhere for me.

    Spoiler it if you must, I'm very curious!

    The responses you got all sucked. Here, in spoiler form, is what it is. It isn't that big of a deal. I'm describing it in detail, but I'm not going to actually spoil major events it relates to, not even in the spoiler.
    Spoiler:

    As for Hodor, with the proper design, it isn't that tough to carry a decent weight on your shoulders. I've known some rather small dads to carry some rather large sons (not teens, but still) in one of those shoulder-chair hiking deals.

    Yes. What they are doing is smushing things down pretty hard. In the book
    Spoiler:

    I didnt like the change really as the book version was far more mysterious and would have worked better for the non book people.
    Spoiler:

    Jubal77 on
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  • YarYar Registered User regular
    In case anyone is wondering, that last spoiler above is a super-spoiler for the show.

    But continuing the discussion: also a big point of the demon birth in the book was supposed to be a moment of "ah-ha, so that's what it was..." for the reader. Except in show, the previous event hasn't happened yet, so it's just a moment of "uh, what are they doing, and what is that supposed to be?"

    In both the book and the show (where the scenes are quite identical), it is nevertheless a gritty moment of realization of just how much of a black sorceress Mel really must be.

    Davos and Mel's argument is key here.

    First, it's Davos saying "we're all a bit good and a bit bad, I'm trying to be as good as I can and all I know is I'm loyal to Stannis" vs. Mel's "nuh-uh, we're either good or evil, and I'm good because I serve the God of Light." This ties into a lot of what people debate about morality in the book itself, as well as differences in views of morality in modern life. From the reader/viewer's point of view, it would seem that Davos is mostly correct about everyone being a bit of both, and just trying in some way to live up to their decisions. Whereas Mel seems to be misguided if she thinks that a) everyone is just good or bad, and b) her religion makes her unquestionably good.

    Then the argument moves to Davos' accusation of "serving the light but hiding in shadows" vs. Mel's rationalization that "shadows are the servants of light." Again IMO same deal here. Davos seems to have a good gut feeling about this. If this God of Light is what it is made out to be, how come Mel is always doing shit at night, and in secret, and in hiding, etc. Mel, on the other hand, has a religious rationalization for everything (this is even more evident in the books). She's right, in a way, shadows really are the servants of light and don't exist without it. But this seems to be a technical rationaliztion that doesn't defeat the general correctness of Davos' feelings. And this debate is greatly intensified by watching this supposed Servant of Light strip down and birth a bastard demon of darkness. Not to mention the fact that the whole reason Davos had to sneak her in was to get her past some ancient magic walls that were built to keep out evil spirits.

    Also, in the book it is never explicit, but it is implied that Stannis is not entirely in control of his mind, and that Mel has some power over him, particularly at night, and that Stannis is actually not consciously aware of the fact that she has been sleeping with him. It is not like Stannis at all to cheat, and a promise of an embarrassing bastard son, like ones Robert had all over the place, would have been just another reason not to; it would not have been an enticement.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Also the fact that the first time Davos smuggled life into Storm's End but this time he smuggled death. I didnt really pay much attention to Stannis at this point in the books as he really confused me and just seemed to be acting overly righteous but not in the likeable Stark way.

    On the Littlefinger front I have no problem with the way he is being presented. I think him and Varys are perfectly done for the limited screen time they are getting.

    Jubal77 on
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  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    Stannis grows on you as time goes on, but at first glance he comes off as cold and self-righteous.

    Which is perfect for the character.

  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    I don't know why I didn't notice this before the show but to sort of back up Yar's post:

    Anyone else get a vibe that Mel and the Sheep people witch that got burned at the funeral Pyre are similar? Remember how Dany's baby is described as when it came out? It strikes me as very similar to that thing I just saw Mel pop out. And while the show differed, in the book, didn't the Drogo getting blood magic done to him thing happen at night as well? Unless I am misremembering, oh well, I'll re-read it soon enough.

    steam_sig.png
  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    I don't know why I didn't notice this before the show but to sort of back up Yar's post:

    Anyone else get a vibe that Mel and the Sheep people witch that got burned at the funeral Pyre are similar? Remember how Dany's baby is described as when it came out? It strikes me as very similar to that thing I just saw Mel pop out. And while the show differed, in the book, didn't the Drogo getting blood magic done to him thing happen at night as well? Unless I am misremembering, oh well, I'll re-read it soon enough.

    If I remember correctly didnt that witch also train at Asshai?

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  • saggiosaggio Registered User regular
    Tamin wrote: »
    This is incredibly frustrating. The westeros.org forums are full of book-readers who have a massive hate-on for Littlefinger; they feel the show is destroying his character. I'm watching episode four and his three scenes in Renly's camp (to me, anyway) show three vastly different characters, which makes me think the show-runners are doing an incredibly good job handling just how involved he is with the machinations of the game. It seems insanely ironic that the community is effectively falling for Littlefinger's act.

    When he's talking to Renly, he simply says that, hey, I'll give you KL if you let me keep my head... and my position, if possible. Then, with Margarey, he's a little more involved - verbally sparring with her; sounding her out, seeing how smart she is. With Cat, he's passionate as soon as he walks through the door, then backs off to plant the seed and give back the bones.

    Am I reading the scenes incorrectly? Has his character been shown consistently, and I'm just crazy?

    The folks over on censoros are not the most sophisticated of fans, I've found. I like ASOIAF because it isn't a standard fantasy story, full of cliches and tropes. But that's apparently what many of those folks there want. I find it incomprehensible.

    Littlefinger is great because he, along with Varys, is the most effective player of the game of thrones. It's compounded all the more by the fact that he has the most humble of (noble) origins. He's basically the only example of a self-made man in Westeros. All the other potential examples (possibly Varys, most definitely Illyrio Mopantis) come from the Free Cities that, for whatever their issues, lack the feudal system that prevails in the Seven Kingdoms.

    I agree with you that the show has been doing a good job showing all of his subtleties. I'm very interested to see what they do for his character in the next season.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The folks over on censoros are not the most sophisticated of fans, I've found. I like ASOIAF because it isn't a standard fantasy story, full of cliches and tropes. But that's apparently what many of those folks there want. I find it incomprehensible.

    This is how I feel about any Jon + Dany theories (and in a larger sense, the entire Jon Snow issue, even though I see the hints as much as anyone else).

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    Remind me why Dany wouldn't show her dragons to the guys outside Qarth again? Was that just because they would see they were babies and just take them from her? I don't remember any standoff like that in the books.

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